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Tuesday, January 4, 2011

Blood Angels and Rhinos. I present my case.


Hello people. This fine evening I'm going to be talking about Blood Angels. I've been doing some playtesting with them lately, using builds that you wont find in places like this. I've been pushing boundaries and stuff (and wearing black, also listening to linkin park), just to see what I could come up with. So, what did I come up with, you ask (or maybe you don't, cause you're just on here killing time when you're bored, or have something better you really should be doing)? Well, the main thing I've been testing is rhinos over razorbacks. And honestly, I think I'm sold.

Why? Well, the main (read:only) advantage over a Razorback is the fire point. Well, that and self repair (which is funny when it happens). Ok, AND it's 5pts cheaper. But the main one is the fire point. It's actually a pretty massive advantage. Today, I'm going to try and get folks to open their heart to the rhino, because it's waiting outside with a present. A big present that's very heavy, and it wants to come in and put it down. And that present is love.

Err, sorry, too many cartoons. Ok, so while 5pts cheaper doesn't sound like much, over 6 units that's 30pts. In my current army build for example, if I was using TLHF razorbacks, I'd be down a landspeeder. Quite often an amount of points like that mean you can fit something entirely new into the army. It's not a big selling point, but it's nice. You also get the stormbolter. Don't laugh! Stormbolters are actually not bad, especially when you have 8 of them running around. They're good for picking on squads you've de-meched, especially if you're fighting IG or (Dark) Eldar. You can also use them to clear (most) bubblewrap. As most bubblewrap doesn't have better than a 5+ save. Of course cover comes into it, but 16 bolter shots are bound to help. People tend to ignore the threat of stormbolters (until it's too late) which is a major advantage, means they can expose infantry squads and not even realise it. Never forget to fire them.

Alright, we're here. The fire point. This is huge. The first use of it is you can pull some cheeky movement shenanigans and such by turning your rhinos around on various angles. It can buy you an extra inch, and (more importantly) get the hatch around a corner while keeping the rhino in cover. Means your opponents don't get cover and you do, which is nice. You can also see over stuff your infantry wouldn't normally be able to (also nice), which includes your own tank walls more often than not. In addition the above movement shenanigans (the rhino swivel), you can do an extended version of this that I've found. Getting your marines to move 6", hop in a rhino and fire from the fire point. From the embarking distance this can (it's happened twice for me) buy you an extra few inches to get you in range/into half range for melta. It's a nice perk.

Of course, the big, blaring, elephant sized neon sign of an advantage I've been dancing about (not at all to increase word count) is the simple fact that by having a firepoint you don't have to disembark to fire. This is MASSIVE. In the attrition game, it's huge. Lets have some picturey examples!

Ok, here you can see my Lamenters in razorbacks facing off against some Meltavets in chimeras!

 
I move up, disembark, blow up one chimmy and flamer the contents, and immobilise the other one.
 
 
In return the IG blow up my LoS blocking Razorback (gotta love AP1) and send strong fire (including lots of melta) into both of my squads. It's unlikely I'll have many (if any) marines left after that. They ignore the other razorback as it isn't a major threat (at all) to a chimera.
 
 
Ok so here we have some Flesh Tearers (hey Katie) in rhinos, facing up against the same opposition.
  

The rhinos move up, do some pivoty shenanigans and (for fairness sake) blow up one chimera and immobilise the other. I realise there would be more melta vets left, but it makes no difference for this example.

 
The Guard move up and blow up both of my rhinos, and send some firepower into the marines. However as my rhinos were around to take some heat for my squads, I will have some marines left to play with.
  

The tearers move up, shoot the chimeras and then the orange squad multi assaults and the green squad assaults the chimmy it didn't kill in the shooting phase, takes it out (it's just an example) and forces the IG inside to disembark.


Now you have to realise this is of course a very idealistic and not at all realistic example, however it does convey the principle. The great thing about not needing to get out is the tank absorbs firepower for your units, meaning that in an attrition war such as this one, you're one step above your opponent.

Hopefully now more of you will have a look at the humble rhino. Of course, it's bread and butter for C:SM, but not often used in Blood Angel or Space Wolf lists. Space Wolves are another strong contender, 5 Grey Hunters w/Melta, Wolf Guard w/Combi Melta + a Rhino is a very strong unit. Especially in numbers.

Hope you guys enjoyed the article!

Comments (23)

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The big downside to firing out of the rhino is that you can only move up to 6" and still do so regardless of how fast the tank is (except on roads). If you want to fire any kind of heavy weapon the vehicle will have to stay stationary, and that includes not pivoting.

The other problem with staying inside is that a cunning opponent (particularly one with access to fleet) will instead of shooting your tank, assault it instead. If the can cover the access points and either immobilise it or stop it from moving next turn, you will then be unable to disembark. If they get lucky and wreck it, you will either be pinned next turn, or possibly lose models depending on how well they manage to surround it.
5 replies · active 725 weeks ago
+1 particularly to the first point. Top hatching is great but limits your mobility.
True enough, it does limit your mobility however the option is still there to move 12" and disemberk. It's notl ike you HAVE to stay in your rhino. You can still move the full distance. Particularly with BA you can then bring another rhino moving 18" to screen your disembarked unit.

It's not an option you lose, is all.
You can pivot and the vehicle does not count as moving, and so the HW can fire as normal.
Good spot, hadn't noticed that one. Pivoting doesn't count for passenger's shooting but does for passenger's disembarking.
Interesting point, but you've got a small error, namely the "except on roads" part. Roads are only used when a vehicle moves at cruising speed, so you can't go 12" and say you're at combat speed and as such still shoot out. It's a pity, but that's the way it is =(
I think it is definitely an idea worth considering instead of blindling going Razorspam all the time.
1 reply · active 742 weeks ago
But the intertubes deem it so! Razorbacks MUST be better, they make you roll a 6 every time.
Rhinos and Razors both have their place....but in a BA Army, the Fast Razorback will probably remain King, simply due to being Fast.
In a Vanilla Marine/Space Wolf Army, more of a case can be made for the Rhino....
And don't forget the 'jump pack sale/Razoreback incentive program' in the BA Codex......
2 replies · active 742 weeks ago
Their rhinos are fast too. Best thing about fast (in my opinion) is the 18" move. You still get the jump pack discout on rhinos too.
But a fast Razor can shoot though moving 12"
The Rhino can only move 6" for that.

Even with the short ranged Assault cannon, you have a 36" threat bubble, whilst a Rhino+Mg has 18" which is a big difference.

Moving 12" is often as good as what other races stuff moves going full tilt. That means they cannot catch you. Meanwhile the Razor is firing to full effect. Against horde, that is useful as they cannot catch you. Against other fast things, they cannot shake you.

I'm not saying your ideas are bad, I'm just iterating the strength of the Razor way of thought.
Your article doesn't really cover the advantage of Razerback Weapons though over Rhinos lack of options > I don't play Marines myself, but I would have thought people take Razerbacks over rhinos if they do, simply because they want the weapon mount. Obviously if they don't want to pay for the weapon, they take the rhino instead?

Unless I'm missing something :)
1 reply · active 742 weeks ago
Well the article is more a "Here's why rhinos are pretty good" rather than trying to undermine razors (which are a valid option too). I'm just saying they're equally valid. People take Razors for transports just for the weapon mount, you're right, but I'm taking rhinos for the fire point.
First, I don't think people buy Razorbacks with the Heavy Bolters... while you lose range, having a fire point and a Storm Bolter is better than a TLHB. They buy it in order to get the TLLC or the LC/PG turrets.

Second, in other armies that move only 12", or 6" for a Razorback that fires, a Rhino being limited to 6" if you want to fire out of the hatch is fine. But for BA who can move 18", cutting down to 6" to get a shot off is a bigger penalty. And a Razorback can fire all weapons moving 6", or its main gun and move 12", so you can provide advancing firepower while moving 12" instead of 6".

For other advancing armies, I like Rhinos better. For Blood Angels, I think the movement difference makes Razorbacks better, and in general for "hang back and shoot" armies, Razorbacks add more firepower plus late movement, while Rhinos only add an armored bunker.
1 reply · active less than 1 minute ago
In the example I was actually counting them as TLHF razors (see the pic with the flame template?).

Agree on the first bit of that sentence. BA can move 18" if they don't fire, so it's not really relevant, cutting from 12" to 6" for the crew inside is a moot point (imo) because the cew still have the option to move 12" and disembark. It's not like you have to stay inside. I mean, I get what you're saying where in a razor you can move 12" and fire the main guns, sure, but with a rhino you get the ability to stay inside and fire for the cost of a gun. But, if you're taking an Asscaanon Razor those rhinos are 40pts cheaper. The advancing firepower is only really relevant if you're taking Asscannon razors with your BA, as the other option people take is TLHF.

Look, I'm not trying to say Rhinos are the be all and end all, or even better than razors. I'm just saying they're another viable option that works. They have their strengths over Razorbacks,
I should probably mention that rhinos work an awful lot better in a "Blitz" sort of force. Where you're getting up in your enemy's face with most of your units from the get go. An example of this would be:

Mephiston
6x5 Assault Marines w/Melta Gun and Infernus Pistol in Rhinos
2 Flamestorm Baal Predators
MM/HF Speeder
3 Rifleman Dreadnoughts

This is the army I'm currently playing with at the moment, and it's very up in your face.The fire points really do help because while I want to be in your face, I don't want to be exposing my troops just so I can melta your tanks. In my 2 test games the rhinos have worked very well for me. Not so much the Baals though....
MadPersian's avatar

MadPersian · 742 weeks ago

What do the posters on this blog use to create the battle maps with all the tokens?
1 reply · active less than 1 minute ago
I think it's a screen shot from a game system called Vassal.
http://www.vassalengine.org/
willydstyle's avatar

willydstyle · 742 weeks ago

One place where rhinos shine but that rarely gets talked about is as a transport for death company. Land Raiders and Storm Ravens are too expensive for an already-expensive unit, and putting them on foot makes them susceptible to Rage. Putting them in a rhino gets you an 18" beeline straight at the bad guys on turn one, setting you up for a turn two assault, the same as is possible from other transports.
1 reply · active 742 weeks ago
Good point, well made.
MadPersian's avatar

MadPersian · 742 weeks ago

Thanks so much.
Angelic Despot's avatar

Angelic Despot · 741 weeks ago

Surely the other big advantage of a rhino is the ability to carry 10 marines rather than the razorback's 6.

What's the reason everyone thinks 5 marines are always better (presumably for their points cost) than 10? Especially when 10 assault marines can take 2 special weapons (and fire both from the hatch, presumably)?
1 reply · active less than 1 minute ago
I'm always a little surprised that people take the MSU idea to very limits and rarely consider mixing 1-2 rhinos with larger squads in with their Razorbacks to give themselves an option in odd situations that pop up.

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