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"...generalship should be informing list building." - Sir Biscuit

Tuesday, January 4, 2011
Blood Angels and Rhinos. I present my case.

Hello people. This fine evening I'm going to be talking about Blood Angels. I've been doing some playtesting with them lately, using builds that you wont find in places like this. I've been pushing boundaries and stuff (and wearing black, also listening to linkin park), just to see what I could come up with. So, what did I come up with, you ask (or maybe you don't, cause you're just on here killing time when you're bored, or have something better you really should be doing)? Well, the main thing I've been testing is rhinos over razorbacks. And honestly, I think I'm sold.
Why? Well, the main (read:only) advantage over a Razorback is the fire point. Well, that and self repair (which is funny when it happens). Ok, AND it's 5pts cheaper. But the main one is the fire point. It's actually a pretty massive advantage. Today, I'm going to try and get folks to open their heart to the rhino, because it's waiting outside with a present. A big present that's very heavy, and it wants to come in and put it down. And that present is love.
Err, sorry, too many cartoons. Ok, so while 5pts cheaper doesn't sound like much, over 6 units that's 30pts. In my current army build for example, if I was using TLHF razorbacks, I'd be down a landspeeder. Quite often an amount of points like that mean you can fit something entirely new into the army. It's not a big selling point, but it's nice. You also get the stormbolter. Don't laugh! Stormbolters are actually not bad, especially when you have 8 of them running around. They're good for picking on squads you've de-meched, especially if you're fighting IG or (Dark) Eldar. You can also use them to clear (most) bubblewrap. As most bubblewrap doesn't have better than a 5+ save. Of course cover comes into it, but 16 bolter shots are bound to help. People tend to ignore the threat of stormbolters (until it's too late) which is a major advantage, means they can expose infantry squads and not even realise it. Never forget to fire them.
Alright, we're here. The fire point. This is huge. The first use of it is you can pull some cheeky movement shenanigans and such by turning your rhinos around on various angles. It can buy you an extra inch, and (more importantly) get the hatch around a corner while keeping the rhino in cover. Means your opponents don't get cover and you do, which is nice. You can also see over stuff your infantry wouldn't normally be able to (also nice), which includes your own tank walls more often than not. In addition the above movement shenanigans (the rhino swivel), you can do an extended version of this that I've found. Getting your marines to move 6", hop in a rhino and fire from the fire point. From the embarking distance this can (it's happened twice for me) buy you an extra few inches to get you in range/into half range for melta. It's a nice perk.
Of course, the big, blaring, elephant sized neon sign of an advantage I've been dancing about (not at all to increase word count) is the simple fact that by having a firepoint you don't have to disembark to fire. This is MASSIVE. In the attrition game, it's huge. Lets have some picturey examples!
Ok, here you can see my Lamenters in razorbacks facing off against some Meltavets in chimeras!
I move up, disembark, blow up one chimmy and flamer the contents, and immobilise the other one.
In return the IG blow up my LoS blocking Razorback (gotta love AP1) and send strong fire (including lots of melta) into both of my squads. It's unlikely I'll have many (if any) marines left after that. They ignore the other razorback as it isn't a major threat (at all) to a chimera.
Ok so here we have some Flesh Tearers (hey Katie) in rhinos, facing up against the same opposition.
The rhinos move up, do some pivoty shenanigans and (for fairness sake) blow up one chimera and immobilise the other. I realise there would be more melta vets left, but it makes no difference for this example.
The Guard move up and blow up both of my rhinos, and send some firepower into the marines. However as my rhinos were around to take some heat for my squads, I will have some marines left to play with.
The tearers move up, shoot the chimeras and then the orange squad multi assaults and the green squad assaults the chimmy it didn't kill in the shooting phase, takes it out (it's just an example) and forces the IG inside to disembark.
Now you have to realise this is of course a very idealistic and not at all realistic example, however it does convey the principle. The great thing about not needing to get out is the tank absorbs firepower for your units, meaning that in an attrition war such as this one, you're one step above your opponent.
Hopefully now more of you will have a look at the humble rhino. Of course, it's bread and butter for C:SM, but not often used in Blood Angel or Space Wolf lists. Space Wolves are another strong contender, 5 Grey Hunters w/Melta, Wolf Guard w/Combi Melta + a Rhino is a very strong unit. Especially in numbers.
Hope you guys enjoyed the article!
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Blood Angels and Rhinos. I present my case.
2011-01-04T17:33:00+11:00
Archnomad
Archnomad|Blood Angels|Tactics|Vassal|
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Eltnot 45p · 742 weeks ago
The other problem with staying inside is that a cunning opponent (particularly one with access to fleet) will instead of shooting your tank, assault it instead. If the can cover the access points and either immobilise it or stop it from moving next turn, you will then be unable to disembark. If they get lucky and wreck it, you will either be pinned next turn, or possibly lose models depending on how well they manage to surround it.
Kirby 118p · 742 weeks ago
Archnomad 70p · 742 weeks ago
It's not an option you lose, is all.
Marshal_Wilhelm 61p · 742 weeks ago
Eltnot 45p · 742 weeks ago
Kildash · 725 weeks ago
fester40k 73p · 742 weeks ago
CalPerr · 742 weeks ago
SinSynn · 742 weeks ago
In a Vanilla Marine/Space Wolf Army, more of a case can be made for the Rhino....
And don't forget the 'jump pack sale/Razoreback incentive program' in the BA Codex......
Archnomad 70p · 742 weeks ago
Marshal_Wilhelm 61p · 742 weeks ago
The Rhino can only move 6" for that.
Even with the short ranged Assault cannon, you have a 36" threat bubble, whilst a Rhino+Mg has 18" which is a big difference.
Moving 12" is often as good as what other races stuff moves going full tilt. That means they cannot catch you. Meanwhile the Razor is firing to full effect. Against horde, that is useful as they cannot catch you. Against other fast things, they cannot shake you.
I'm not saying your ideas are bad, I'm just iterating the strength of the Razor way of thought.
jasonc · 742 weeks ago
Unless I'm missing something :)
Archnomad 70p · 742 weeks ago
Sly · 742 weeks ago
Second, in other armies that move only 12", or 6" for a Razorback that fires, a Rhino being limited to 6" if you want to fire out of the hatch is fine. But for BA who can move 18", cutting down to 6" to get a shot off is a bigger penalty. And a Razorback can fire all weapons moving 6", or its main gun and move 12", so you can provide advancing firepower while moving 12" instead of 6".
For other advancing armies, I like Rhinos better. For Blood Angels, I think the movement difference makes Razorbacks better, and in general for "hang back and shoot" armies, Razorbacks add more firepower plus late movement, while Rhinos only add an armored bunker.
Archnomad 70p · 742 weeks ago
Agree on the first bit of that sentence. BA can move 18" if they don't fire, so it's not really relevant, cutting from 12" to 6" for the crew inside is a moot point (imo) because the cew still have the option to move 12" and disembark. It's not like you have to stay inside. I mean, I get what you're saying where in a razor you can move 12" and fire the main guns, sure, but with a rhino you get the ability to stay inside and fire for the cost of a gun. But, if you're taking an Asscaanon Razor those rhinos are 40pts cheaper. The advancing firepower is only really relevant if you're taking Asscannon razors with your BA, as the other option people take is TLHF.
Look, I'm not trying to say Rhinos are the be all and end all, or even better than razors. I'm just saying they're another viable option that works. They have their strengths over Razorbacks,
Archnomad 70p · 742 weeks ago
Mephiston
6x5 Assault Marines w/Melta Gun and Infernus Pistol in Rhinos
2 Flamestorm Baal Predators
MM/HF Speeder
3 Rifleman Dreadnoughts
This is the army I'm currently playing with at the moment, and it's very up in your face.The fire points really do help because while I want to be in your face, I don't want to be exposing my troops just so I can melta your tanks. In my 2 test games the rhinos have worked very well for me. Not so much the Baals though....
MadPersian · 742 weeks ago
kambui1080 8p · 742 weeks ago
http://www.vassalengine.org/
willydstyle · 742 weeks ago
gdmnw 50p · 742 weeks ago
MadPersian · 742 weeks ago
Angelic Despot · 741 weeks ago
What's the reason everyone thinks 5 marines are always better (presumably for their points cost) than 10? Especially when 10 assault marines can take 2 special weapons (and fire both from the hatch, presumably)?
Mycroft · 732 weeks ago