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Monday, January 10, 2011

Dark Eldar: Duke Sliscus + Webway Portal



So whilst writing the introduction to the Dark Eldar review the concept of a Duke Sliscus and Webway Portal army occurred to me. I'm still iffy on it's viability but the deployment options gives the army a wide range of flexibility and the Duke really buffs the army in many ways. First let's look at what the deployment combination of these two would do. First off, Duke essentially gives all DE skimmers retro-firejets++ which allows them to Deep-strike and units to disembark upon the turn they arrive which combines very well with a Webway Portal's inability to allow vehicles through. The combination of the two allows vehicles to be purchased in a WWP army and deep-struck whilst the infantry aspects utilise the WWP to come onto the board in midfield. The question then becomes is this worth it and are there enough points to go around to make it work? Well let's find out. (Note: this post is quite long as I explain a lot of the reasoning for choices)

We obviously start with Duke Sliscus. This gives us a very capable combat character who opens a lot of builds and provides for the army quite well. Not only does he give the vehicles the option to deep-strike but the Trueborn/Kabalite unit he starts with has 3+ poisoned guns. Not bad. He further increases the potential of certain squads by allowing two rolls on the combat drug table which increases the likelihood you'll get the desired result for the specific game you are playing. All this for 150 points and you can see why he is such an awesome buy. The next obvious step is to buy a couple of Haemonculus with Webway Portals. We're going to go with two to ensure we are able to drop one off on T1 and our army isn't left stranded in reserve. These guys cost 85 points each so our HQ takes up an impressive total of 320 points so we basically have 1750 points to build our army. Let's see what we can do.

A staple for most WWP armies is a large Warrior squad. These guys are the perfect place for a WWP character to hide in the early going because they are cheap, scoring, have numbers on their side and provide good shooting both against infantry and anti-tank. With a Haemonculus along for the ride they also gain FNP which makes them very tough to shift from cover without S6+ cover ignoring weapons. Basically these guys are durable, provide for the army in the long-run and allow the WWP to be dropped off reliably. So we'll take one squad of these guys at 20 strong and chuck in two dark lances. Since our HQs are starting in this squad we don't need to worry about a Syabrite though a phantasm grenade launcher might be a good investment... Remember as well that starting the Duke in this squad gives you 18 rapid fire 3+ poisoned weapons but in Dawn of War you have to choose whether to deploy the WWP further up field or have 3+ poisoned Warriors. This squad sets us back 230 points.

We have a lot of options regarding what should come through the Webway Portal and combat units are the most obvious, particularly slow combat units like Incubi or Talos. Both of these units operate very well in WWP armies but we are looking for some vehicle support which is capable of deep-striking as well due to the Duke. So we'll focus on that aspect of the army first before moving onto what comes through the Portal. The obvious inclusions here are Ravagers and Trueborn in transports. Both of these options don't require to come in via reserve and add very potent anti-tank and supporting anti-infantry firepower. Trueborn in particular benefit greatly from the combination of the WWP and Duke's special deep-strike rule as they are able to overcome the short-range of many of their guns. Although Ravagers don't benefit greatly from the Duke's deep-strike ability due to their range and mobility, the option to deep-strike into side angles rather than coming on from the table edge is a welcome bonus and something not to be ignored. Both units can also deep-strike quite safely due to their range and mobility on subsequent turns.

With this in mind we'll take three squads of both Trueborn with Blasters in Venoms and Ravagers. We're giving the Trueborn blasters as they become excellent anti-tank units who again can come through the Portal or drop in with their Venoms. We've also provided them with Venoms for a smaller profile when deep-striking and increased anti-infantry firepower though Raiders are also an option. Three squads of three strong with three blasters and three Venoms with double cannons sets us back 438 points. The Ravagers will come equipped with three dark lances for maximum anti-tank firepower and a flickerfield to ensure they will also have a save even in the open. Three of these guys at 115 sets us back 345 for a total of 783 points for this block which is quite expensive but provides excellent mobile anti-tank. This is one of the reasons Razorwings were not included due to their extra 40 point price tag though if the points can be found for one or two of these guys, their multiple 5" blasts would be very beneficial.

We've used a total of 1333 points so far with our core HQ and Troops set and the majority of our anti-tank and deep-striking elements in place. Time to look towards what comes out of the Webway. Unfortunately we've used up all of the slots of some of the most obvious WWP choices such as Talos and Incubi and only have Troops and Fast Attack slots left. Luckily for us, the DE codex was built well and we still have a large amount of options. Due to Hameonculus as Troops we've got the following choices: Warriors, Wyches, Wracks, Beastmasters, Scourges, Hellions and Reavers. For the moment I'm going to immeditaely remove Warriors and Hellions from consideration. Hellions aren't really worth it without the Baron and whilst Warriors have merit as mini-blaster units in Venoms, the list wouldn't be maximising the potential of the Webway Portal and we'd then be looking at a modified Venom spam list. Warriors are also medicore at best in combat even with FNP and FC. I'm also going to elminate Wracks who are a good objective holding Troop choice but only so-so in combat. A squad of these guys could replace the large Warrior squad as the starting Troop but for the moment we'll scratch them out as well.

This leaves Reavers, Scourges, Beastmasters and Wyches. We're obviously going to take some Wyches as we need one more Troop and these guys/girls are great tarpits and torrenting units in combat but suffer terribly against shooting. The WWP makes them an ideal choice here then as they can minimise the shooting they suffer and won't take damage from being inside a transport which explodes. All bonuses. With fleet they also have a 13"-18" charge range from the WWP which gives them a nice amount of reach. Three squads of 10 should do nicely with a Hekatrix, 2x Shardnets and a Agoniser. The Shardnets enhance their tarpit ability and cover their weakness against opposing torrenting units. The Hekatrix gives an important Ld9 boost whilst also providing some armor ignoring ability. The Agoniser isn't a set choice as these guys are primarily a torrenting and tarpit unit but is a nice option to have as supporting attacks. Wyches also benefit from the Duke's ability to roll twice on the Combat Drug table. For the moment three of these squads is ideal and costs 160 each. This leaves us only 187 points for our Fast Attack so let's drop all three of the Agonisers giving us 247 points instead.

Since we've dropped the Agonisers from the Wyches our combat punch is pretty minimal whilst our army is very in your face so we need to be able to support them. Whilst Reavers can be decent in combat with drugs, their poor save and lack of easy way to get them FNP limits their use. Whilst they are great coming out of the portal and being able to put in some mobile anti-tank or anti-infantry firepower, not what we are looking for in this list currently. This is not to say they are a bad option but just not where I want this list to go. Running Reaver squads with Heat Lances (or even Scourges with Heat Lances) is a very viable choice for this army and adds some more reliable anti-tank. If we were planning on just using the Wyches as delaying units and had other scoring units availabe to use Scourges would be a good option to provide some mobile special weapon fire but with the Wyches as some of our primary scoring options, Beastmasters are a better choice here. With their very impressive charge range and being decently survivable to both shooting and in combat whilst being able to chuck out a lot of rending attacks, Beastmasters are an excellent support unit for Wyches. Although both of them combined are relying on weight of attacks to drag units down, they have a lot of attacks between them which is going to drag down even the toughest of foes.

However, with only 247 points available we aren't going to be able to make very impressive Beastmaster units and we need at least two (relying on a 4+ reserve roll for a single Beastmaster unit is not a good idea). We therefore need to free up some points and whilst I'm loathe to do it, the easiest way is by dropping a Haemonculus. This frees up 85 points and takes us to 332 availabe points and allows us to take the staple Beastmaster unit of 3 Beastmasters, 5 Khymera and 4 Razorwings giving us a total of 28 wounds, 26 I6 A and 24 I5 rending A and leaves 20 points free for upgrades. Let's take a peek at our final list then.

Duke Sliscus
Haemonculus w/Webway Portal
3x3x Trueborn w/3x Blasters, Venom w/2x Cannon
20x Warriors w/2x DL
3x10x Wyches w/2x shardnet, Hekatrix
2x3x Beastmasters w/5x Khymera, 4x Razorwings
3x Ravager w/flickerfields

Totals: 1950 points
6 vehicles
24 beasts
61 infantry

So we've actually got 50 points remaining for upgrades or potential changes. We can give combat upgrades to the Hekatrixs or add some more Wyches in general which I think is the better option and gives us one squad of 15. Let's take a look at the list then and how it feels.

The army is very in your face and limits the amount of damage it can take by coming in from reserve. The biggest issue I foresee is ensuring mech gets popped. Whilst you have 11 lances and 10 blaster type weapons, these are only spread over eight units and with some poor reserve rolls, can leave your army a little bit stranded. Those extra points we spent on Wyches might be better spent on buying Blast Pistols for the Wyches as a safety net just in case. Otherwise there is a pretty good mix of anti-infantry firepower from shooting and combat which can enjoy the breaking open of cans. The Warrior squad which starts on the table is very survivable in cover w/FNP and provides excellent midfield coverage, particularly if the Duke starts with them. Although there are only six vehicles they are all in reserve which protects them to an extent. The Duke's ability helps them choose their deployment depending on what army is being played against to maximise their potential and chances of survival. The Duke also helps the Wyches in picking the best drug for the game and the Wych/Beasmaster combination should be able to assault on the turn they arrive which further minimises the amount of incoming firepower the DE list will receive. There are a lot of infantry on the board which are very survivable in combat, particularly if pain tokens can quickly be acquired.

I think there are quite a bit of variations on this list whilst utilising the Duke and WWP. Running Raiders as transports and Talos as Heavy Support for example or a modified Venom Spam as discussed before. In terms of scaling I don't think this list would do too well at lower point values as you'd lose some redundency or lower your vehicle count too much whilst at higher levels it scales very well. You can increase your combat potential with more Wyches/Beastmasters and add Raiders to the Wych squads to increase the number of vehicles flying/deep-striking around whilst upping the anti-tank potential of the list (you should be able to fit in another Wych Squad w/Blast Pistol, Beastmaster unit and 3x Raider [or drop all the Blast Pistols and get a 4th Raider] with flickerfields).

Anyway, let's get the discussion ball rolling. Is the army too diverse and should it stick to token WWP in a Duke Venom Spam list or simply scratch the Duke + Skimmer concept within a WWP list?

Comments (16)

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why no Haywire on Wyches? How would you deal with Drop Podding armies with Dreads. I know explosions kill them but Dreads are an issue with the 20man warrior squad and Beasts especially if it is a Venerable especially if you are going to deploy them in most games. I know wyches can tarpit it but being able to destroy that and vehicles is great.

I play a 15 man squad of wyches with Haywire and Hexatrix. It works well for what its role is. Tie up units I don't want to shoot at my vehicles or assault vehicles. I know Shardnets are great but those 60pts total could be put to this and now they can threaten vehicles also. Now the threat of tank shock is greatly diminished in hurting everything.

My opinion but I understand why it was built this way. The more games I play with my DE build below the more a hodgepodge isn't so bad.
1 reply · active 742 weeks ago
I'd prefer the Blast Pistol over the Haywires for the Wyches. Although it's only one shot if it works, the Wyches get to assault (this is obviously assuming the rest of your firepower fell on it's rear trying to open the tank). Haywires are great in a list which is really Wych heavy (i.e. foot Wyches, no WWP) but aren't reliable as Archnomad said. With the extra points you have in this list you can take them as a safety net though.
But grenades suck vs dreadnoughts. >_>

I like the concept Kirbs, but I already told you my problem with it. Here's my take on DE (@1750 though)
Asdrubael Vect
2x4 Trueborn w/4 Blasters + Raider
3 Trueborn w/3 Blasters + Raider
4x5 Warriors w/Blaster + Raider
3x3 Reavers w/Heat Lance
3 Ravagers
1750

31 Lances and 3 Heat Lances. Problem is if I max that out like that, I suffer vs infantry. And I know, venoms, but in this list I could have what, 7? That's like 28 wounds vs a horde and 14 dead (assuming cover). Not enough imo.

I think moar anti tanks. :P
2 replies · active 742 weeks ago
I'm sorry, but I don't like that list at all. You're paying 240 points to steal the first turn, but your alpha strike is weak. Yes, you have a lot of lances. The problem is that a lot of those are of the 18" variety, so if you want to use them, you have to disembark first turn (>24" - 6" move = >18"). So, your 31 T3/5+ infantry last how long? Or, you don't disembark the first turn and hit them with 12 lances from 6 targets, so why were you so eager to seize?

Also, *most* grenades suck vs dreadnoughts. 10 Haywires give ~1.4 damage results per assault phase. A broken arm means fewer attacks, which makes your 4++ look that much better. An immobilize will give you ~4.2 damage results the next round. Either way, your 10 strong squad isn't going to get swept off the board.
No, I'm not. And the alpha strike is not weak. I'm paying 240pts for first turn and kickass combat power (he can go clear whatever comes out the wrecks quite happily). Also, deploy raiders sideways on the deployment line. Win games.

Just saying.

And I didn't say they'd get swept or whatever, I just said they suck. And they do, it'll take a while to bring the damn thing down, as opposed to shooting it.
I like the idea of the list Kirbs and I think this is one of the few executions of WWP that works.

I'd, personally, go with Talos instead of Ravagers (go with chainflails and TL Haywire Blasters) as they are, in general, more survivable and are brutal in melee.

I think I'd also roll with dual splinter cannons and a blaster and sybarite with PGL instead of Dark Lances. With the Duke's 3+ poison, I'd rather have more shots taking advantage of that. Personal preferance though! :)

Great article.
7 replies · active 742 weeks ago
Aye the Talos/Ravager choice was hard but in the end I really think the list needs those extra 9 lances. Talos certainly can work but you'd then need the Reavers/Scourges for Heat Lances.

Maybe try this list during our vassal games :P.
My bias is showing as I trust MCs in combat against vehicles more than dark lances on a paper airplane.

I'd love to try out my all-foot; no WWP 2k Deldar list against whatever you'd like. For the 1750 Centurion game, it'll be Orks.
I said games. With an s. Plurals :P.
Ambitious! I'm currently pencilling in my Friday nights as Vassal nights. Would love to get games in against you and any 3++ers.
But that's my Saturday. Make it Thursday nights :P.

ANd yes, everyone play Nathan and remember, if you win it's proof Orks suck but if he wins, he cheated :P.
Perhaps a Thursday night time frame would work as well.

Vassal will never really be *proof* of anything and neither will even 10 40k games. There are just too many variables in every game to make a definitive ruling on anything.
You didn't laugh at it this time. *sadface*
Meister_Kai's avatar

Meister_Kai · 742 weeks ago

In general, the Dark Eldar codex sucks vs Dreadnoughts (in CC).

I loathe Blast Pistols on Hekatrixes. Banking on your one lance shot to not get completely wrecked by that squad in a tank or dread is just not a good idea IMO. Even if it does hit the tank, you better hope it doesn't blow because if you would be in range to assault that turn you are taking causalities on your squad (not guaranteed but certainly probable). That and it is expensive.

I am glad someone brought up Haywire Grenades. I think that most Wych squads should be outfitted with 15 girls, up to 3 Shardnets, and HG's. Yes you might only get 1 result on a dread, but if a dread is assaulting you things have gone wrong anyway. I also think Agonisers are a waste, 1 power weapon wound a turn probably won't be turning any tides. To go with your torrent theme consider just a Venom Blade. Haywire Grenades also make tank shocking your poor Wyches a really dicey concept, which brings me to another point:

I am not a fan of the 20 man Warrior squad, but if you do take it I really believe it should have a Sybarite. LD 8 is just too flimsy sometimes and I would take my chances to tank shock it off the board at any opportunity. Your 1 lance hit doesn't scare my Wave Serpent or gun lacking Fire Prism. Of course, Eldar are not the only army that can tank shock, just an example.

I also think Talos suffer a problem similar to that of Wraithlords in the Eldar codex; it is a MC in a army without MC saturation. They will be singled out and annihilated post haste (especially if they are carrying Heat Lances, I would take mine with Haywire Launchers thank you very much). If you choose to take Talos in your list plan for them to be burnt to a crips post-haste and write this into your plan for the army.

I am also rather "eh" on both the Duke in this list and just one WWP; one WWP is capable of being blocked off by many armies (unless you are deploying it far back, in which case what is the point?)

If I were to do a WWP list, it might look something like this:

HQ: 170
Haemonculi w/ WWP
Haemonculi w/ WWP

Elite: 368
3 Trueborn w/ 3 Blasters
Raider
3 Trueborn w/ 3 Blasters
Raider
3 Trueborn w/ 2 Dark Lances

Troops: 725
10 Wyches w/ Haywire Grenades
10 Wyches w/ Haywire Grenades
10 Wyches w/ Haywire Grenades
10 Wyches w/ Haywire Grenades
20 Warriors w/ 2 Dark Lances
Sybarite w/ Venom Blade

Fast Attack: 268
5 Scourges w/ 2 Heat Lances
5 Scourges w/ 2 Heat Lances

Heavy Support: 315 1846
Ravager w/ 3 Dark Lances
Ravager w/ 3 Dark Lances
Ravager w/ 3 Dark Lances

Thats 1846 points, which leaves room for a Beastmaster squad to tack on (more points can be finagled by taking off 2 Blasters from the Trueborn squads). We now have a net gain of 4 lances, 6 more Wyches, and jump melta troops.

The name of the game is "hold one objective, contest the others". You have somewhat limited anti-inf, but the Wyches/Beastmasters/Scourges can take the job on along with the 20 man Warrior squad. You have adequet anti-tank shots so that isn't a worry.

I don't think the Duke fits well into either lists because you never really want to deep strike vehicles (at least I wouldn't) with a list like this and with only 3-4 units that actually use combat drugs I think he is sort of meh. I'm still not sold on either list either (Kirby's or mine) because honestly I'm not sold on WWP's period and have yet to see a list that incorporate them that makes me think "yes, that is awesome and WWPs make the list".
1 reply · active 742 weeks ago
I'm not a blast pistol fan for Wyches either but as a last ditch "the rest of my firepower didn't work" it's nice to have. I'd prfer more Wyches though.

Why would I take a Syabrite when I'm babysitting it with an IC? If there is no IC then absolutely Ld9 is important.

For this reason Talos are best done in WWP lists as the firepower they take is limited. With DE you almost want to overassault so you stay in combat and the survivability of things like Wyches, Talos, Incubi, Beastmasters, etc. in combat can help with this.

I do agree re 1 WWP as discussed in post.

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