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Thursday, January 20, 2011

Deathwing: I'm Sorry, Your Viable Army is in Another Castle



The new FAQ was, for all competitive players, a big step in the right direction from GW. Finally they have admitted that not only do the internets exist, but they are universal enough that they are a viable form of distribution of official information- and only, what, a decade behind the times? But, as with Fantasy 8E, we are finally seeing some attempts to make a comprehensive update to the game in order to bring all the army books in line with the current rules set, even ones that are lagging significantly behind the times.

The internets have, as they always do, jumped on the new changes as the dawning of a golden era, with everyone posting their personal pet lists and declaring them the newest, greatest thing. Folks, I'm sorry but getting a 3++ save isn't enough to make Deathwing viable. There is a core of an army in there, but it is not thirty Terminators trying to score points.

Anytime a new change comes along, there is a tendency to declare it awesome or horrible without actually taking the time to evaluate it. But this is just the knee-jerk reaction- there is absolutely no reason that we can't use all our old tools to look at the army we have available and decide whether it's any good.

So Deathwing runs with a 3++ save now and has two-shot Cyclone launchers. What of it? While this gives them a good boost to survivability and extra firepower, they still have other issues- a "pure" Deathwing army still has extremely limited mobility (walking 6", basically) and very little ability to threaten an opponent at range- four or six CMLs simply isn't enough to down the dozen or so vehicle hulls that you can expect an opponent to have. How will it deal with Eldar or Dark Eldar, both of whom can outmaneuver it and spam mid-range firepower onto its units?

Worse, it has no real way to hurt infantry, either, at least in its most common setup. You'll see lots of lists with four to six squads of guys with a CML, maybe a Chainfist, and all the rest TH/SS. What can an army like this do against Tyranids or Orks, who will simply swamp it with bodies and laugh? Ten attacks per turn, even Thunder Hammer attacks, is not going to scare an Ork mob or swarm of Termagants. They will, as it has been said, bury you; you need a way to deal with infantry that isn't just hoping they get within 12" of you so you can charge them. You need... Storm Bolters.

Yes, that's right; Storm Bolters. While they may be trash as an upgrade weapon for most units/characters, in this case they're actually quite nice. We can shoot them on the move (which gives us a modicum of mobility) to full effect and they have not-unreasonable ability to hurt even MEQs and such by simply torrenting them down. And, most importantly, they give you a way to not simply auto-lose to large numbers of infantry, since you can start hitting them several turns before they can charge you. (Against shooty infantry, like Guard, you will probably have to waste your shots on their vehicle armor because your CMLs are all in regular squads.)

So, in my opinion, the best setup for Deathwing squads is most likely Cyclone/Chainfist/SB, TH/SS, and 1 PW/SB, 2 PF/SB; a second TH/SS in place of one of the vanilla guys may be a superior choice, I would have to actually test it out somewhat.

Even this setup, though, is not really a viable army- it still has lots of holes in its defenses. I think that some kind of pseudo-Doublewing army is the best choice, using Ravenwing squads as its melta and to give it mobility (both in the early turns to drop Termies where they are needed and throughout the game to respond to varied threats), but I can't say I have an army hammered out for sure. It probably consists of Belial, some number of Deathwing squads as above, a couple Ravenwing squads with Attack Bike and all the melta they can take, and possibly some support elements (Typhoons are actually 5pts cheaper, Dakka Preds are only 10pts more expensive) t round things out.

Comments (26)

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What about land raiders (both variants), whats your views on them regarding a pure deathwing list?
2 replies · active 740 weeks ago
"Lets have less troops, so we can have one tank"

Is what I think he'd say.
GET OUT OF MY HEAD!!!!!
Brother C's avatar

Brother C · 740 weeks ago

thx puppy for addressing what I have been telling everyone at my club that keeps telling me deathwing is now the most powerful list build. hahah. they are crazy. I'm still rolling plenty of 1s on those massed small arms fire wounds. I have been running my DA with shooty term squads for awhile now, I'm going to squeeze in a few TH/SS's just to absorb those plasma and las shots. but the core is still there. shooty terms bubble wrap is still very viable (now even more so) but those people who think that throwing down 25 models on the table and expecting to be competitive are barking up the wrong tree.
I agree. Except that I do in fact prefer to drop the SB's. This is the 2k List I'm personally looking at:

Belial-130
Ven. Dread w/MM or TL-AC and HF-150
Ven. Dread w/MM or TL-AC and HF-150

Deathwing Command Squad-290
Cyclone, 5xTH/SS, Standard, Apoth

Deathwing Squad-235
4xTH/SS, LC, Cyclone

Deathwing Squad-235
4xTH/SS, LC, Cyclone

Deathwing Squad-235
4xTH/SS, LC, Cyclone

Deathwing Squad-235
4xTH/SS, LC, Cyclone

Typhoon-75
Typhoon-75
Ravenwing Attack Squadron-190
2xMelta, AB w/MM
Basically:

Yes you need speeders and no you can't field a whole army of hammernators or you lose.

40k on the internetz missing the obvious. News at 11.
I've not seen many suggest DW only lists, most have a fair whack of support in either speeders/dreads or both. Anyone that just puts terminators on the table and nothing else needs their head checked.

While I think people are getting carried away, theres also the counter pull of this where people go in the complete opposite direction.
I totally agree AP and said so in the comments a couple of days back.
I found that a squad with:
Sgt PW+SB
TH+SS
TH+SS
SB+PF
CL+SB+PF

makes a good setup as it allows you to take 3++ saves when needed and still have some trickery with wound allocation so you can as much as possible avoid 5++ saves on the CL (heavy weapon).

You could maybe skip one TH/SS and have a SB+CF instead for even greater wound allocation shenanigans, but then you have only one good inv. saves.

And as stated in other articles on 3++, I also think that the best DA army would be double wing for the added Melta weapons, late game objective contesting and when needed a possible first turn charge.
I'm gonna post my current DW list here and show you how I went about it. It plays very much like Loganwing, only the role of TWC and Lone Wolves are wrapped into the troop units. Mobility is a factor, but DWA of 1 or 2 squads plus lots of long-range fire really do mitigate most of that. I named the list Death Hammer to kind of play off your 'Blood hammer' lists. The first draft is on my blog at hiddeninthewarp.blogspot.com. here's my update:

130 Belial w/ Claws

290 DW Command (5x TH/SS, Apothecary, Standard, CML)

240 DW Squad (1x PW/SB, 1x PF/SB, 1x CF/SB, 1x TH/SS, 1x TH/SS/CML)

240 DW Squad (1x PW/SB, 1x PF/SB, 1x CF/SB, 1x TH/SS, 1x TH/SS/CML)

240 DW Squad (1x PW/SB, 1x PF/SB, 1x CF/SB, 1x TH/SS, 1x TH/SS/CML)

240 DW Squad (1x PW/SB, 1x PF/SB, 1x CF/SB, 1x TH/SS, 1x TH/SS/CML)

185 Devastator Squad (1x PW, 4x ML)

185 Devastator Squad (1x PW, 4x ML)

245 Devastator Squad (1x PW, 4x LC)

Total: 1995

The list had the problem of having 50 points left over after everything was in. You can drop the banner and pick up a typhoon, but I decided to go with an upgrade to the Devs. Both options should be fairly useless as a lone speeder will bite it quick.

DWA is used for Belial's squad to present a threat and get a hammer unit in the opponent's face fast. Similar to how the TWC operated in Loganwing. the list throws out 18 missiles and 4 lascannons, so has the long-range threat to stay viable on the move. Mobility is still an issue, but in most games your opponent will need to meet you halfway to get to objectives. At that point you are ready to thrash his army in close combat.
1 reply · active 737 weeks ago
Ew. Power weapons? In an army that can afford to spend all of the points that would normally go to a Tactical Tax on Hammernaters and CML? Sounds like those dev squads could have some of their points spent better.
Alright, I've been telling my friends that surely GW didn't completely break the game with the release of the Dark Angels FAQ. I've been holding tight to the principals that 3++ teaches, that 5th edition is the best, most balanced edition yet. I've got to admit though, my faith has become a bit shaken in the few days.

On Sunday (I think the day after the FAQ came out) there was a tournament at my local. One player brought his old Deathwing Terminators out of retirement planning on giving them a go with the newest FAQ. He mopped the floor with fucking everyone. I didn't play him myself so I can't comment on the tactics that he was using, but a close friend of mine played him in the third round and got completely steamrolled.

The Deathwing list was as follows, to the best of my memory:

HQ

Belial with hammer and shield

Interrogator Chaplain in Terminator armor with combi-melta

TROOPS

Deathwing Command Squad with Apothecary, banner, hammers and shields.

Deathwing Terminators; 3 with hammers and shields,, 1 with hammer, shield and cyclone 1 with chainfist and storm bolter x2

Deathwing Terminators; 3 with storm bolters and fists, 1 with storm bolter, chainfist and cyclone, Sergeant with bolter and sword.

ELITES

Venerable Dreadnought with plasma cannon and heavy flamer

FAST ATTACK

Land Speed with Typhoon missiles

This is a 1,750 point list, by the way.

This list managed to roll over a Tyranid army with complete ease (it wasn't an optimized list in the slightest), a fairly standard Codex Marine list and then my friend's Wolves with Grey Knights.

I guess what I'm asking for is this: can someone please explain why the Deathwing aren't overpowering and how you can beat them without tailoring your list so hard that you lose to anything else?
2 replies · active 740 weeks ago
Point out that the list is fail, because it takes a chaplain over an allied brother-captain.

The real issue here is, like the dark elves of 6th and 7th edition, deathwing players have been hammering seals and semi-pros with their horrible army for a very, very long time, and now that it's somewhat viable, all that experience is gonna slay bad players.
Problems with the list:

-It can't handle swarms of models. Hordes of Gaunts, spammed Devourer fire, anything like that is going to give it a bad time (except on the Command Squad, who has FNP.) Solution: good screening tactics. Don't let him make charges where he wants, force him to fight smaller bugs first and then make your own charges with the big guys.

-It has no mobility to speak of. Yeah, he can walk 6" a turn; so can everyone else. You can basically just choose not to engage him until you're ready, and if there are multiple objectives, he's going to struggle to take them. Solution: use shooting to wear him down, then charge when you're ready.

-The lonely Land Speeder and Dreadnought are terrible inclusions. As the only armor in the list, they're easy targets for AT guns early on. Solution: Ha ha ha ha ha ha thanks for the free KP.

The squads without Shields will be easy prey for MCs and Bonesword Warriors; he'll shrug off one or two with his 5++, but it's not going to save the squad if he gets charged. The Command Squad will be annoying, but you can nibble away at it with random shooting (remember, he can't take FNP against Impaler or Heavy Venom Cannons, as they inflict Instant Death) and eventually send something in to finish it off. If you're playing high-end, a hammer unit like Swarmlord or such will end their day quickly (wait until he is down to 2-3 models left in the squad before you do this, and remember that Swarmlord will annihilate Belial in a single attack.)
heres what that list has in terms of shooting: 4 missiles from the Deathwing (let's say he has 6 with 3x CMLs). 2 more missiles from the Typhoon. A PC. A heavy flamer. Combi-melta. and some storm bolters.

You take out the support of the Deathwing (not to too hard to at least suppress it) and you've taken 1/3 of the firepower away. The Deathwings are still scary in combat so you avoid them in combat which with a 6" move isn't too hard (and if they want to run, even less firepower). This means they are going to camp the middle of the board very effectively or run around trying to catch you ineffectively. If they choose to camp midfield depending on the mission it can be annoying to remove them, but particularly this list with only 15 Terminators, it's not too hard to torrent them down. Let's give someone two turns to take down the Dread and Typhoon which is pretty generous considering the amount of firepower most lists can put out. You've then got a whole army shooting at 17 terminators and whilst they are generally more survivable against ap1/2, other than the Command squad those squads will roll over to massed fire sooner or later. Even if you drop just one squad or the two non-FNP squads, their firepower and mobility and scoring capacity just keep dropping rapidly whilst they don't have much killing power outside of combat.

Now when you take Deathwing backed up by Typhoons/Speeders/Dreads/Preds/Vets in numbers where you really up the damage potential of the army, Deathwing become scarier. They still have limitations and are more survivable than killy, but with 20-30 scoring terminators forming a base backed up by a lot more firepower, it's harder for your opponent to focus fire on the Terminators which gives them time to close with the enemy. Deathwing supported lists (or Doublewing or Ravenwing) are good lists. They aren't fantastic as they don't have really significant offensive punch but like Eldar they aim to outsurvive your opponent but like Tyranids or Orks they aim to simply advance across the field and pressure you.
Any and all serious deathwing players will tell you that 30 identically geared terminators is shit, and you need to mix it up.

What this means is you can build a deathwing core (3+ squads), fitted with cyclones to add actual utility at range, a few hammernators for increased durability of the squad, but still mantain a whole bunch of stormbolters, while ACTUAL BACKUP IS NOW AVAILABLE, as speeders no longer suck.
You take your 2-3 dreads, captain useless with his improved stormshield, for better plasma soaking potential, 4-6 terminator units, 3 speeders, an allied brother-captain with a 'hood, 2-3 predators, and that's it.

Deathwing is all about min-maxing - even if warseers don't like to talk about it.
The army works. It's not great, but it works.

In other words, by admitting that Jervis' design, choices, writing, and stubborn stupidity are all wrong, and very bad things, it breaks the rules of GW completely, buries the old, and signals that real changes have been made.
Halle-fucking-luyah!

This is what I have been saying SneakyDan, yeah, you!

You need some for of anti-infantry to make deathwing work.

I am seeing myself something like:
belial 3-4 temie squads with CML, 2 th/ss, 3 sb/pf
2 combat squad in rhino w/ melta
3 speeders
maybe a predator or 2 if they fit
1 reply · active 740 weeks ago
You can buy dreads over the shitty tacs.
Think like you're deathwing, or you'll get owned.
I actually wrote up something similar on my site last night... I can see having a couple of CC squads but putting them in Raiders and also having some shooty squads to sit on objectives.

The army needs to do multiple things not just one to be competitive!
4 replies · active 737 weeks ago
I agree!

Did people forget how to field DW? What's with this 30 Terminators on foot bullshit?

Ten Hammernators in two Crusaders, then back that business up with whatever you like; foot Termies, Dreads, Speeders, Preds... basically like my own twin rock Space Marine army, only some of the Terminators can get FNP. Oh, and they are scoring!

Deathwing are not viable, WTF?

Back in the day (3rd ed.) we could only back up our assaulting Termies with shooty Termies and Dreads and Land Raiders, but now we can have whatever we want. There is no longer any restriction to fielding DW anymore, just the huge benefit of scoring Terminators. How is that not viable?
Wow...

I should read before I post, I sound like a total nub.

Basically, my point is that a "Deathwing" army is little more than a "Dark Angels" army these days. They aren't as exclusive as they once were, and since the door was opened to field them alongside other DA units there is no reason to play them like we did back in 3rd edition. Basically, any army with Belial and at least one Terminator Squad is a "Deathwing" army. With that in mind, how can you say that DW aren't viable.

Here's a viable list for you:

Belial (Lightning Claws)
5x Termies (5x TH/SS, CML, Apoth)
5x Termies (5x TH/SS, CML)
Crusader
Crusader

870 points of non-fail units with guns
____
2000

BAM!
Then you're taking less dudes in favor of more tanks, and denying yourself the benefit of the CML to boot.

I'd say that making it akin to Loganwing, ie lots of move and shoot missile launchers with support elements in the form of nonfail speeders, etc. is the way to go. You'll be a bit melta light, but not heinously so, and you've got enough missiles to deal with most things. Sure, Hurricane Bolters are nice for hordes, but if you play it right massing missile launchers can deal with hordes. I mean, worst case scenario, fire a billion fucking frags and hope they scatter enough for you to hit, say, 3 models rather than 1. If you someohow had the points to shoehorn in 6 squads of nators and 3 speeders (which, mind you does ignore the whole "melta" thang) you're looking at 18 frag rounds.

I forget, do DA get decent dakka preds? Hrmz I'm guessing they don't, or else everyone else would be all over that one.

So, in short, hordes are a problem-ish, but you do have a decent amount of ability to contain them, and non-av-14 armor is right well pasted. It's not broken, but the army can actually cope now.
Their Dakka Preds are 10pts more expensive, if I remember correctly. They're not a huge issue, though, because you can already get lots of torrent shots from Storm Bolters and CMLs do pretty much the same thing as autocannons. It's an option, but other things tend to fit your plan better.

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