So we have another discussion post prompted by another e-mail. This time it's about Eldar and running units of Jetbikes as scoring. Let's take a look at the e-mail:
"Hey there Kirby, i have another matter on which i'd like your oppinion. I've been using my mechdar for quite a while now (the non-council, non-eldrad type), pretty much exactly the same as your list. It works brilliantly, except of course against guard, but that's just something we eldar players must accept (unless when running a council). However, i've recently decided on trying out a variation. Specifically, a variation for a tournament which allows special characters (very rare around here) and thus i'd like to take Eldrad. Not only that, but i've found that 3 DAVU squads (including the falcon) just doesn't do it for me. I've been running the following:
-Eldrad
-3x 5 Fire Dragons in Serpent with twin shuricannons and underslung shuricannon
-3x 3 Guardian Jetbikes
-5 dire avengers
-2 Vypers with scatter laser and shuriken cannon each
-Vyper with scatter laser and shuriken cannon each
-Vyper with scatter laser and shuriken cannon each
-Fire Prism with underslung shuriken cannon
-Fire Prism with underslung shuriken cannon
-Falcon with holofields, missile launcher and underslung shuriken cannon
That adds up to 1748 or something like that. So i've gone for scatter lasers on the vypers as well, since i believe that extra range helps, especially on the first turn. And a missile launcher on the falcon as a little try-out, though that's really just a gimmick more than something i need advice on. I'm especially curious on your thoughts on the list, specifically on the jetbikes as scorers (obviously, these are always held in reserves)
Kind regards,
Kildash"
A quick look at the list does show us a weakness in terms of scoring with only one DAVU squad but a lot of firepower whilst still having 4 Troop choices. The question is, are the GJB squads better than DAVU Serpents? The short answer is no. Although they highlight the Eldar tactic of hiding in reserve and late-turn objective taking rather than actual firepower, your scoring is very weak without DAVUs. The more complicated answer is whilst they aren't better they are certainly different and add another dimension to an Eldar list. Running one or two squads in conjunction with say 2+ DAVU squads gives you survivable and mobile Troops in the DAVUs and nimble/reserve based Troops in the GJB. This allows you to be more aggressive with your DAVU Serpents whilst still having some scoring options allowed. Let's take a bit of a longer look.
For 76 points we get a 3-strong squad with a 3+ save and some pretty minimal firepower (but not negligible). This squad isn't going to survive for very long but is pretty cheap and therefore there is reason to take one or two squads and always reserve them (except against armies with no shooting). You could increase the squad size to 6 and two shuriken cannons for 152 points. This makes the unit more survivable, harder to hide and packs a bigger punch and if you start adding in things like Farseer/Warlocks/Autarch on Bikes these guys can stick around quite a bit and provide some offensive punch. Again though it comes down to them being viable? I think overall they are but they often don't fit well into Eldar lists which really rely on the survivability of their Wave Serpents to give opponent's trouble. They are rarely going to shoot you off the board and will rather aim to bludgeon you around with lots of survivable tanks and reserve fun (hi Autarchs). In the end the small GJB squads can add to this type of army but don't replace the DAVUs whilst the larger squads are harder to fit in.
With your list then Kildash I'd cut down to two GJB squads and look to fit in a DAVU Serpent. By dropping one of the GJB squads and a Vyper you'd have 138 points to play with which isn't enough for a DAVU Serpent. You could drop Eldard down to a normal Farseer but you want to use Eldrad so we'll leave him be and we'll end up dropping one of the other GJB squads. This only gives you one GJB squad but you've got two rather survivable scoring squads with the DAVU Falcon+Serpent whilst still having the flexibility of the GJB squad in reserve. The GJB are nice but they really need to supplement an Eldar's scoring rather than be a focal point.
Logging you in...
Igradar · 739 weeks ago
Why is the net full of this tripe? 3 Jetbikes are removed from play with a sneeze. They are considered 'objective grabbers', but lack the staying power to do this effectively. Somehow, Eldar players out there have decided that it's possible to hide 3 of them for 5+ turns.
In KP missions, you're essentially handing free points to the opponent. When I DO use bikes, I kit them out with cannons at 6 / 7 strong. That way, they can take some casualties, and cause wounds / threaten light vehicles whilst providing a workable screen for my other units.
Single units of 3 Jetbikes are frankly silly. One casualty, and you test at ld 8, falling back at 3d6. Take 2 casualties, and you cannot regroup. Remember, they're only as tough as basic marines. I think Eldar players are putting too much faith in that idea. Numbers people. Numbers! :p
Igradar · 739 weeks ago
Kildash · 739 weeks ago
Kildash · 739 weeks ago
In this way, I disagree with Kirby on the shuriken cannon for the jet-squads. Giving them a shuriken cannon will make you want to come within 24" (or at least 30", counting the 6" assault-move) and that's the way to get those things killed.
All this is assuming there is NOT a way to just hide them from sight behind terrain, which there usually is for at least one squad.
Thoughts?
Kildash · 739 weeks ago
Igradar · 739 weeks ago
I disagree. In an objective game, if I can take out your scoring units and keep a safe distance with mine, i'd gladly trade a predator or two. More importantly, just because you present your opponent with an immediate threat, that doesn't mean they will ignore everything else.
"add in the Ld-test and i'll take my chances, thank you. And even IF the squad runs away from a casualty, and I can't regroup, that's another predator less... You only need one troop to win the capturing-objective."
Sure, you'e hit a very important point, but even so, you're still making it extremely easy for those scoring units to be taken out. I aim to make it as difficult as possible for my opponent to achieve this, such that I always have at least one scoring unit up, and enough fast vehicles to contest as I see fit.
Even if you can somehow see the merits of 3-man units in objective games - and I sure don't - they're completely useless in KP missions. All you can do is attempt to hide and allow your opponent to focus more efforts on less units.
Kildash · 739 weeks ago
This makes it a lot more viable, i'm sure you'll agree. In normal scenario's, I agree with your points.
abortedsoul · 739 weeks ago
Kildash · 739 weeks ago
Sometimes the local tournaments DO stick with the usual scenarios, occasionally replacing KP's with VP's (as also suggested in the KP section I think), though mostly sticking with them. I think those are fine too, but then if an army has 10 or less KP's, they count double. My army has quite a lot of KP's, but i've found it's not that hard for this army to also GET a lot of KP's.
What I think a tourney should be like? The book rules. However, even though i'm quite competetive myself (seriously, ask my friends), I go to a tourney to enjoy myself, and playing some different scenarios every once in a while can be refreshing. Ow, and new opponents too ^^
stever · 736 weeks ago
16 of the shots twin linked. with doom, you can get 15-20 wounds, say you kill 6 marines. next you get 26 attacks on the charge, if you don't finish off the rest of the squad, thats a good thing so you can be protected from shooting the next turn. if they're fortuned up, even better.
never heard of anyone running the full complement of 12 jetbikes, just a thought. too expensive? 359 points?
Kirby 118p · 736 weeks ago