"Hi again Kirby (or whoever it may be). I’m a convert on the use of LasPlas Razorbacks but am torn on how many to squeeze into the list. I also would like your views on TLAC TLLC dreadnoughts verses 2 x TLAC. I know the Rifledread is superior at AV10, but it is only marginally better at AV11 (due to the cost difference) and behind at AV12/13/14. Do you think it is worth the points to add some higher strength shots? I also previously used Dakka Preds, but in my limited experience I never seem to get much use out of their Heavy Bolters and so am toyingwith the idea of just using plain Preds.
List #1 – 1495
My first list is trying to accommodate 4 LasPlas Razorbacks, giving me 4 mobile scoring units. In both lists the Librarian will travel with a squad in a razorback with a dozer blade.
HQ
Librarian, Null-Zone and Avenger – 100
Troops
5-man Tac squads, Melta Bombs, LasPlas Razorback with Dozer Blade – 175
5-man Tac squads, Melta Bombs, LasPlas Razorback with Dozer Blade – 175
5-man Tac squads, Melta Bombs, LasPlas Razorback – 170
5-man Tac squads, Melta Bombs, LasPlas Razorback – 170
Elite
Dreadnought, TLAC, TLAC – 125
Dreadnought, TLAC, TLAC – 125
Dreadnought, TLAC, TLAC – 125
Heavy
Predator, AC – 60
Predator, AC – 60
Fast
Land Speeder, HF, MM – 70
Land Speeder, HF, MM – 70
Land Speeder, HF, MM – 70
List #2 – 1500
This list removes 1 LasPlas Squad, swaps in a TLLC on the dreads, adds a third Predator and a fourth Land Speeder
HQ
Librarian, Null-Zone and Avenger – 100
Troops
5-man Tac squads, LasPlas Razorback with Dozer Blade – 170
5-man Tac squads, LasPlas Razorback with Dozer Blade – 170
5-man Tac squads, LasPlas Razorback – 165
Elite
Dreadnought, TLAC, TLLC – 145
Dreadnought, TLAC, TLLC – 145
Dreadnought, TLAC, TLLC – 145
Heavy
Predator, AC – 60
Predator, AC – 60
Predator, AC – 60
Fast
Land Speeder, HF, MM – 70
Land Speeder, HF, MM – 70
2 x Land Speeder, HF, MM – 140
Any thoughts or advice would be greatly appreciated.
XionXxen"
Your first list is better but I'd drop a Speeder to get the heavy bolter upgrades on the Predators and replace the meltabombs on the Tactical squads (and Dozer Blades if you need the points) with combi-weapons. I'll explain why :P. For an extra 25 points on the Predators getting 6 shots is too good to pass up. It's an 85 point vehicle with AV13/11/10 and 8 S5+ shots at BS4. Compare this to a 60 point vehicle with only 2 shots. Sure those shots aren't going to do much against vehicles except AV10 but that's not what they are there for. Being able to put 8 shots into infantry units or MCs which can reliably generate wounds is great to have and it can if you need to, poke at tanks. For 85 points they are a steal whilst 60 point Preds, whilst cheap, aren't so flash.
Regarding 2xTLAC compared to TLAC/TLLC it comes down to expense. Whilst the TLLC/TLAC might be better at higher AVs due to the TLLC, it's a fair bit more expensive and loses you reliability against lower AVs. Having issues with higher AV? Take true anti-tank like meltaguns or MM (hence the combi-weapons) rather than mildly higher strength guns. If you start taking TLLC/TLAC those Predators actually need to start hurting lower AV tanks which is asking a lot of them. Since you already have 4 lascannons from LasPlas RBacks as well, the Rifledreads w/2x TLAC are just the way to go.
Logging you in...
WiP · 746 weeks ago
Those heavy bolters on your Predators will keep them shooting even if a Weapon Destroyed result comes around (in my experience this happens more often than not when fielding Leman Russes and Hammerheads, due to becoming bullet magnets). Additionally, dakka-Preds are one of the more reliable ways to get lots of long-range anti-infantry firepower in a vanilla marines list.
If you want firepower on the move, I would consider a dreadnought w/ twin-linked autocannon + assault cannon. Six AP4 shots that can shoot on the move sound appealing as well. Speaking of Dreads…
About the TLACx2 vs. TLAC+TLLC Dreadnoughts:
The Rifleman dreadnought (x2 TLAC) is really good at what it does – it can mulch AV10 and 11 quite reliably and glance the heck out of AV12, and can put wounds on monstrous creatures. Note that I said reliably glance AV12, not penetrate. Yes, melta weapons kill AV13-14 more reliably; and yes, autocannons cut down AV10-11 more effectively, but neither of these can kill AV12 reliably past 36”. Yes you can deep strike melta weapons in, but what happens when those fail you and you didn’t take He’Stan Vulkan? Yes, you can attempt to get side armor shots with autocannons, but what happens when the IG player (with their thinking cap on) just won’t play nice and show you nothing but 12?
And yes you can bring 6 rifleman Dreads and lots of melta-equipped units in other FoC slots. But if your opponent chooses to stand off against you, what do you do then? Most likely, the average player would move their melta-equipped units up in some manner to get in range of the enemy vehicles. But remember that if you are in melta range, your opponent is as well (and if not, they soon will be!). Autocannons can reasonably disrupt AV12 from shooting, but why would you want to glance AV12+ transports to death? Transports need to be immobilized or blown up in order to stop them from moving (mobility usually being their primary advantage and reason they’re taken); you will only be doing so 33% of the time on a glancing hit versus 66% of the time on a penetrating hit. And why spend so much on just twin-linked autocannons when you can do combos like [twin-linked autocannon + assault cannon] or [twin-linked autocannon + plasma cannon], which, though not as good at anti AV10-11, have better anti 4-6+ save infantry punch and anti 2-3+ save infantry punch respectively? Please don’t get me wrong, I think the Rifleman is very good at what it does – but in my opinon, penetrating AV12 is not one of these.
And so I make my case for lascannons. Unless you bring LOTS of autocannons, and unless you roll penetrating sixes like no one’s business, BRING LASCANNONS. Lascannons by their very nature were made to destroy AV12-13. Though the twin-linked lascannon variant will be 145 points, that lascannon on average it will hit once every turn; I really doubt you’ll regret taking it when staring down 5+ Chimera chassis or several T6, 6-wound, monstrous creatures. Dreadnought twin-linked autocannons MIGHT hurt AV12-13 and MCs; twin-linked lascannons WILL hurt them. Consistently. And only a fool would intentionally place their Land Raider/Monolith/Leman Russ in front of multiple lascannons.
My two cents… (and 2.5 hours of my life). Please take what I say with a grain (or a pile) of salt, but I hope it provides some helpful food for thought.
I'm sorry for making such a mess of the comments section. I just apparently a lot to say. My sincerest appologies to you Kirby, you run a great, great site and I'm sorry I made a mess on it. Could you possibly fix my first comment? Or move it if appropriate?
Kirby 118p · 746 weeks ago
Regarding TLAC/TLLC. Regardless of what type of AV you want the Dread to go for you're combining two different guns for two different roles. Sure it's better than the 2xTLAC at dealing with heavier armor but the TLAC isn't so hot in that situation whilst shooting at lower AVs the TLLC is just a single shot (which is why autocannons are so good for popping low AV). What you said is true so the question becomes, what do I need in my list? If we look at just your Troops/FA/Heavy Support we see a fair amount of S8+ with the Speeders/meltas and Lascannons from LasPlas. Sure the S8 on the Tacticals (assuming you take combi meltas) is short-ranged but if the opponent comes to you've got a very nice anti-tank gun and those Speeders are very mobile. Pack in those lascannons and you're decently solid at the AV12+ area. Not fantastic but solid. You then look at your general suppression fire and you don't have much with only the Dakka Preds having multiple medium strength shots. This is where the Rifledread really helps in most SM lists because there are very few places to get rate of fire shots elsewhere. Everything else is generally S8+ and outside of the Typhoon or CML, not putting out a bunch of shots.
It comes down to what your list generally needs and in most Marine variants, the Rifledread is going to be better than the TLLC/TLAC because you can get that S8/9 stuff elsewhere more readily.
WiP · 746 weeks ago
After reading your article on How To: Midfield, I think I better understand how the space marines codex functions as a whole (at least the units that are worth taking for a strong, balanced armylist). I also think I owe an apology for my initial post and how strong my pro-lascannon voicemay be for a few reasons: (1) I have played 40k almost exclusively from the helm of shooting-oriented armies, so I'm familiar with the armies you've tagged as having stronger backfield presences (which is true), and since these armies don't have access to lots of midfield weapons I've been an advocate for weapons such as autocannons, lascannons, railguns and other utility "backfield" weapons. (2) I've had more than a few 40k players tell me "autocannons all the way" and - more often than not - get ran into the ground by other armies that run lots of AV12+ (IG, Tau Empire, Eldar) .
WiP · 746 weeks ago
Kirby 118p · 746 weeks ago
I'll do a post later on how to effectively combat an IG mech army in terms of accessing their side armor.
WiP · 746 weeks ago
Sadly, I agree with you on the fact that a lot of people take weapons or upgrades simply because they read any old article that tells them to do - and worse yet - start acting all high and mighty-like about it. They're frustrating, but I pray for 'em too (and then pass the ammunition).
That's why I really enjoy 3++. More often than not you and your crew not only explain why something is or is not worth it, but you sometimes explore other potential alternatives and how they honestly stack up (take our 2xTLAC vs. TLAC/TLLC dreadnought discussion for example), and silence a lot of possible "well, I take this and it works for me" statements.
Kirby 118p · 746 weeks ago
I'll try and put it up this weekend but it will use Vassal pictures as I don't have a proper Mech IG army at hand (Vince's is half arsed; not enough guns nor any planes!).
WiP · 746 weeks ago
Speaking of Imperial Guard, my models are only primed because I'm still working on my army and how it performs on the table. I sent you an armylist a while back that you looked at for me, and since then I've played off a few of your suggestions as well as lessons I've learned through battle experience and opponent advice. I was curious if you'd be interested in taking a look at some of what i've been working on?
Kirby 118p · 746 weeks ago
Zjoekov 74p · 746 weeks ago
The only combination I think is potential usefull is the TLAC/Plasma Cannon combo; simply because it's a possibility to get some Plasma Cannons into your army (on a vehicle so it doesn't overheat and is mobile). High quality anti-infantry is something which Mechmarines tend to lack sometimes.