So I got in an e-mail recently and since I haven't had much time this weekend to do any significant posts (though I'm glad to see Mercer's 'death of the meltagun was appropriately taken by most people...), I thought I'd drop this e-mail in.
"Hello all,
I keep on loving the blog and its still my favorite 40k one out there. Keep up the good work!
A friend of mine was considering moving on form his Orks and start trying out a marine army and wants to have just a fun fluffy army but still wants it to do well. He is really interested in Raven Guard because he really like the fluff and the cool forgeworld kits. So he and I were discussing how to make this army limiting ourselves to ASM, Vanguard Vets, land speeders, scouts, tactical squads (in drop pods) and dreadnoughts (in drop pods). But then we thought using blood angles because that way we could have ASM at troops, have access to honor guard, have access to Stormravens (i know ONLY Grey Knights and BA have them but i think they fit in a raven guard theme. plus it is called a StormRAVEN), and use DotA which fits the Raven Guard's skill with jump packs. The thing is, if we go with BA i want to stay away from a lot of specific blood angels things like baal preds, sanguinary guard, furioso dreads and things like that. Sanguinary priests might be an exception to this rule but only if you guys decide they are absolutely necessary to make the list work. So im asking what you guys think will work, CSM or BA and what would this army generally look like?
thanks for your time
KingCronan"
So let's take a quick peak at what the SM and BA books offer us in terms of Raven Guard fluff and what KingCronan wants.
Space Marines:
- Shrike (obviously fluffy...) though he's only really a good unit when you grab some TH/SS and make a 1st and 10th list (there have been a couple posted up on 3++ before)
- 1st and 10th is an easy and effective theme to make
- cheap vehicles in every slot (though not so fluffy for RG)
- VV are really bad so not a great option here
- ASM are pretty bad as well with access only to flamers and not being scoring
- ASM as scoring and access to meltaguns; this is a great boon for any army built around ASM
- Stormravens are accessible which certainly fits the fluff and combined with Speeders gives a fast and saturated force (though you aren't going to be accessing Dreads)
- Sanguinary Priests would really be needed to make the list work so you'd need to shoehorn their fluff in
Anyway those are my thoughts but I'm not too well rehearsed in the Raven Guard literature/fluff. So any other thoughts from others? I'm sure fester will come along and encourage the use of his 1st and 10th concepts ^^.
Logging you in...
tzeentchling 76p · 736 weeks ago
So two dreads - podded or Ravened, 10 Terminators, ~20 Assault Marines, Librarian and Honor Guard with magnetizeable backpacks/jumppacks, 10 sniper scouts could be a decent base for either list. Then fill to taste with codex-appropriate models.
Cyklown 51p · 736 weeks ago
Plus I thought that dreads were unfluffy for Ravens? Didn't their infrastructure take such a huge hit that they can't really field them?
tzeentchling 76p · 736 weeks ago
I have no idea on the fluffiness of dreads. My idea was pointing out that if you wanted to build a list compatible with both codexes and theme (along with what the original author wanted), these might be good things to start with.
KingCronan · 736 weeks ago
Bro_Lo 82p · 736 weeks ago
Sethis · 736 weeks ago
The first incarnation was a Scout army built using C :S M consisting of Shrike and a jump Chaplain with a squad of Assault Marines w/ PF/SS Sergeant, supported by 30 CCW Scouts with Power Fist sergeants, 10 Bolter Scouts w/ Power Fist, 10 Sniper Scouts w/ Telion + ML and 5 CCW Scouts in a Storm w/ Power Fist and the odd Las/Auto Pred and Rifleman Dread in Pod. It basically needed to fulfill the following conditions to win:
- To not be playing vs a Combat based army like Chaos/Wolves/Nids
- To get first turn (ideally)
- To not be facing more than 1 Land Raider
More recently (and with better results) I've moved away from Scouts and onto C:BA which allows me to field 2 full Assault Squads with PF/Melta as troops, Devastator Squads that actually work and Apothecaries (Sang Priests). I have one Priest babysitting Devs (so the FC never matters much) and the other is accompanying my Captain with 2x Lightning Claws and Jump pack (yes, I know it's terribly bad but I don't want to throw away fluff completely by not having Shrike) so I explain that the FC is coming from Shrikes leadership, fluffwise, and the FnP from the Apothecary. If anyone gets Red Thirst then I explain it as them being squads from Shrikes Veteran Wing.
While I am open to accusations of "Using the better codex just to have a better army" which I don't deny, the BA codex feels a lot less "Gimmicky" than the C :S M one, and is much more fun for me to play. I have yet to get a Storm Raven, but I can't help but think it would look awesome painted in a Raven Guard scheme. I hope that might have helped a little!
Cyklown 51p · 736 weeks ago
There are the priests, and they *are* gimicky, but the BA codex actually supports the playstyle of Ravens, whilst the Codex: Space Marines option makes taking anything that Ravens would consider to be "standard" be bad.
Cursed13 · 736 weeks ago
The Raven Guard do make extensive use of their scouts, but that doesn't necessarily mean they'll be involved in battle. The scouts usually stay outside the conflict, locating targets and relaying them to the Captains. The scouts are the intel network of the Raven Guard. It's safe to assume that the Raven Guard know pretty much anything at any time about any subject. The only greater concentration of knowledge is the Black Library. You thought Thousand Sons had vast libraries? Raven Guard just don't tell you what they know.
Also, don't get confused. Raven Guard do have fully equipped Armouries. They have tanks and Terminator armour in equal amounts to most other chapters, they are just reluctant to field these as regular course. It is preferred to avoid using these tools, but if the situation calls for it, they will unleash them to great effect. They simply like to strike at the heart and leave a lifeless corpse of an enemy than ground them with treads. Strike hard, strike fast.
However, if you really want to use the Blood Angels codex for Raven Guard, who are Codex Marines, who have no special abilities and are simply awesome just by being themselves, go right ahead. Although it's better if you play Blood Angels with the BA dex, if you'll have more fun with a Raven Guard theme, go right ahead, no one can stop you. Personally, I think a Raven Guard painted Stormraven would look Awesome, I've been wanting to do that myself but simply no time at the moment. Just keep in consideration that Raven Guard aren't meant to play like the Blood Angels, it's not true to their nature or character. They're two totally different personalities.
Bro_Lo 82p · 736 weeks ago
I don't have a huge wealth of knowledge regarding Raven Guard, but I do know bits and am happy to do a bit of research. I would say Codex:Blood Angels is a far better codex for representing Raven Guard if I'm being honest and I'm quite surprised you feel the way you do. Being a 'Codex' adherent chapter means nothing. If you are bothered about that so much, limit your choices to those that would be used by a codex chapter - they're all in C:BA too you know.
Having the 'Red Thirst' special rule IS a bit of a bummer, but can very easily be interpreted in many other ways - a single squads disdain for the enemy at hand. However, almost all of the other special rules are as suited to RG as they are BA, if not more so. BA are more know for reckless assaults, whereas RG are for their thoroughly planned, precision strike. Their heavy use of assault infantry is well known... ummm.... hello Descent of Raven Guard + better equipped ASM as TROOPS + Heroic Intervention VVs that can actually HI, unlike the imprecise C: SM ones.
If you chose not to use units such as sanguinary guard, priests and Storm Ravens (Which I think make great count-as Thunderhawks by the way), then that's fine, but you can make a much better, more representative list from C:BA than C :S M. That's right... competitive AND fluffy... who'd have thunk!
Yes, Shrike isn't available, but is fleet and a single unit with infiltrate really representative of RG. Not in my opinion... especially as everybody runs a captain with a JP with a unit of terminators. That's not fluffy in the slightest. I personally like Dante as Shrike, but I'm sure you won't. His unit are 100% precise on the drop. His mask can be representative of his tactical superiority over his opponent and it's not as if he's rocking a power fist or anything.
This is a game of fantasy and make-believe. Theming armies is a beautiful part of the game. Comments such as these are detrimental IMO.
"even thinking about using the Blood Angels codex is blasphemy."
C: SM was clearly designed for Ultramarines and chapters rigidly adherent to Codex Astartes. RG may be a 'codex chapter', but the way they go about their business is very different to that of the UM.
Maybe it's just my opinion.
KingCronan · 736 weeks ago
I don't think Cursed13 was also arguing that shrike in necessary in a raven guard army. i think he is just saying that CSM represents the way the army fights better. But i do agree with you about shrike. i see Shrike's special rules as unique to his company. Because raven guard captains are so Independent it would make sense that each company would fight a little differently from another. so ya Shrike is not necessary for a raven guard army.
Bro_Lo 82p · 736 weeks ago
The fluff is the story. The rules and codices are the game. They're two very different things.
TMiles001 · 736 weeks ago
Bro_Lo 82p · 736 weeks ago
Captain - Lightning Claw x 2, JP - 155 (because a librarian shooting blood bolts just wouldn't be fluffy now would it)
Honour Guard - Meltagun x 3, LC, MB, JPs - 215
ASM (10) - Meltagun x 2, LC/MB - 230
ASM (10) - Meltagun x 2, LC/MB - 230
Scout (5) - Sniper rifles, ML, Camo cloaks - 100
Scout (5) - Sniper rifles, ML, Camo cloaks - 100
Vanguard Vets - LC/SS, LC, TH/SS, LC/MB, SS/MB - 295
Vanguard Vets - LC/SS, LC, TH/SS, LC/MB, SS/MB - 295
Land Speeder x2 - MM/HF - 140
Dreadnought - 2 x TL-AC - 120
Dreadnought - 2 x TL-AC - 120
2000
Is it competitive, not really, but it's as fluffy as C: SM can get you and a lot more functional. You wouldn't get auto-owned like you would with your C: SM counterpart. The speeders could be removed for some tacticals in a pod, but then i'd recommend finding some more points for a 2nd pod to give you some options.
In part I agree with Kirby that FnP/FC bubbles are important for up close, CC armies, but I don't necessarily see them as essential for something more fun.
KingCronan · 736 weeks ago
I also like your Dante idea. something to consider and might be fun option to have every once and a while.
Cyklown 51p · 736 weeks ago
A "Strike hard, strike fast" army is just, simply put, handled better by C: BA. No two ways about it. You are good at using jump packs, can give command squads (if you take them) jetbpacks, have usable dev's and VV. C: SM cripples too many aspects of the way Raven Guard are said to play.
Bro_Lo 82p · 736 weeks ago
TMiles001 · 736 weeks ago
LolCommissar · 736 weeks ago
It just annoys me that C :S M can't take jump packs on honor/command squads, wtf was that about?
Cursed13 · 736 weeks ago
LolCommissar · 736 weeks ago
KingCronan · 736 weeks ago
@cursed13: really informative and i learned a lot about RG :) I agree all the BA stuff is not what raven guard about. But i think DotA is just so Raven Guard. If use use Jump packs as much as raven guard do, you are going to get good at them. Plus (like LolCommisar said) lack of jump packs on honor/command squads should really happen. I mean why would Shrike have a command squad if they could not keep up with him? I feel if there was a Raven Guard codex it would basically be CSM but with DotA and command squads would be able to take jump packs. (It would also be nice if ASM could have meltaguns) Because you are such a Raven Guard fanatic i would really like to see your army! It would be a good option to show my friend if he chooses to go the pure fluff rout.
It is interesting to know that they would never use Stormravens because they have sooooo many thunderhawks. but to field a thunderhark it would be 1500 pts and $500 so i think using a storm raven every now and then instead is a nice way to get the best of both worlds lol. Though, in time, i think stormravens are going to be worked into CSM and inserted into all the space marine fluff. I mean GW wants to make money and lots of people want stormravens because they look so cool but can't use them because only GK and BA can have them. It is just too much money to be passing up. I would bet a lot of money that the next CSM has stormravens in it and as a result Raven
Joe · 736 weeks ago
Cyklown 51p · 736 weeks ago
KingCronan · 736 weeks ago
Like i said if there were a "Raven Guard Codex" earlier, if there were a Salamanders codex, it would basically be CSM but with more options to give your characters, veterans, and Sgt's things like: master crafted weapons, artificer armor, and digital weapons and units would be able to take more flame and melta. (sounds like the Armageddon codex right? ;) )
Ya the BA codex is a better codex, but it does not excuse every marine army to be blood angels.
Cyklown 51p · 736 weeks ago
The C: SM codex does it just fine. The tactical tax is best done by fielding meltabunkers for area denial, they loves them their hammernators and tend to field a lot of flamers, heavy flamers and multimeltas. The Sallies are a great example of the C: SM allowing for multiple chapters to do their thing with a viable build who have a special character who enables them to shine.
Blood Ravens are a great example of a chapter that gets shit upon by GWs insistence that you can build all the chapters due to certain units in the codex blowing more than they should
Your further examples don't really make sense because I'm saying that Codex : SM works just fine for sallies, especially since Vulkan actually helps them. Shrike doesn't make Ravens more Ravenlike because he's really only good for making Hammernators get there faster.
edit: And hell, GW specifically tells us that counts-as armies are alright, legal and in the spirit of the game. So... where's the issue with doing it that way?
KingCronan · 736 weeks ago
My raven guard codex argument was referencing my earlier post were i said "I feel if there was a Raven Guard codex it would basically be CSM but with DotA and command squads would be able to take jump packs. (It would also be nice if ASM could have meltaguns)" I was saying that, according to Cursed13, RG are a codex chapter that would be like CSM but with the slight changes mentioned like DotA and a few unit selections. While in contrast, the only real things salamanders have different are war gear options.
Bro_Lo 82p · 736 weeks ago
Don't get bogged down in the names and this 'codex astartes' rubbish. Select the book that fits the fluff.
Warboss Stalin · 736 weeks ago
Warboss Stalin · 736 weeks ago
Command Squad:
Champion + Paired LC's
Apothoary
x3 Vets with TH/SS (1 with meltagun, x2 Flamers)
(Had no points for comp. standard, seem's iffy need with Khan anyway)
8 Bikes + Att. Bike (Troops), powerfist, Flamer, Meltagun, Multimelta
8 Bikes + Att. Bike (Troops), powerfist, Flamer, Meltagun, Multimelta
x10 Ass. Marines (Dual LC's, melta Bombs)
x10 Ass. Marines (Dual LC's, melta Bombs)
x Landspeeders (x2 Heavy Flamers, x2 Typhoon Launchers)
1,850
Mix/match the command squad options as you want...one perhaps better version has x4 melta guns with SS/LC x2, SS/TH x2
Cyklown 51p · 736 weeks ago
Bro_Lo 82p · 736 weeks ago
As Cyklown says... the ASM just make it worse. Even a bike list can be done better with BA.. maybe I'll make a list.
@Hannoveraner · 736 weeks ago
http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.php?show...
It looks like there are many opinions about this out there.
LolCommissar · 736 weeks ago
When I got back into this hobby back in 08 every space marine player - blood angels, dark angels, black templars ran using vanilla rules and everyone was cool with it. Since then using counts as earns you an undeserved amount of hate, I don't see how people can get angry at people playing unoptimised BA lists with black marines but not at people running 'cheesy' BA lists with red marines. Makes me sad and confused.
Kirby 118p · 736 weeks ago
My marines are a special color and over the years I've played red, grey and blue variants and had armies for them. It's simply cost prohibitive to have that many armies which are so similar though all in different colors. It's like having a red ferrari and ...do ferraris come in any other color? a black one! Mine are at least a non-standard color so no one can bitch but the point still stands, it makes no sense for people to complain.
Now let's look at Vince. He has...6 shades of Marines? White Scars, Imp Fists, Crimson Fists, Blood Angels, Night Lords, normal Chaos, Black Templars so 7! All combined he could make a massive force of one 'army' but ya :P.
Dan · 735 weeks ago
http://revenantautumn.blogspot.com/2011/02/descen...