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Saturday, March 26, 2011

Thousand Sons Count As Build

Pic from Litanies of Hate

So I've seen a lot of people asking about how to approach Thousand Sons, in regards to a counts as GK list. Firstly, for those that don't know (HEATHENS!)
The Thousand Sons were the legion of Primarch Magnus the Red, the most psychically gifted of all of the Emperors Primarchs. His psychic ability was second only to the Emperor himself, and his Legion inherited his inherent nascent psychic abilities, through his gene seed. This led to the Flesh Change, a flaw in their gene seed (similar to the mark of the wulfen) which would force uncontrolled mutation on the legionnaire. Magnus cured this, through means unknown, which cost him an eye, hence Magnus the Cyclops.

So that's the back story. Basically all 1ksons are psychic to some degree or another. They are broken up into cults, each specialising in some form of warp manipulation. Pyrae specialise in devastation, the Corvidae in foretelling, Pavoni in healing, etc etc. Units in the 1ksons (from the McNeil Heresy novel, anyways) seem to be loose formations of combinations of different cults, which is well represented by the GK codex, if one knows but how.

Pavoni/Pyrae are the best presented, and the easiest. Pavoni are one of the lower ranks, and specialise in healing/augmenting strength. Yay, hammerhand, represented by the fluff. Pyrae specialise in destruction, which I will be representing in my army by GK's with psycannons. The Corvidae are aptly represented by Librarians and Grand Masters, one is a Master Psychic, the other able to foresee the future through grand strategy.

So, how to represent the 1ksons? Lets start with a GM, with radnades/psycannon. This represents his higher mastery of the Pyrae arts, as well as his Corvidae training. The librarian comes in as well, with whatever powers you choose - he's a 1ksons libby, he can do whatever the crap he likes with his psychic abilities.

So HQ's are sorted, on to troops. Standard GK aptly represent normal squads filled with Pavoni and a Pyrae (cannon or incinerator), but for my liking, are a little squishy. I'm steering clear of razorbacks and the like, figuring the 1ksons would not be adverse to fighting on foot. For troops, I'm taking GKT's. This can represent our psychic elite, with cannons and "kine shields" as our justification for TDA and Psycannon.

Next is Heavy Support. One of my favourite things in the book, whilst not incredibly viable, is the Automaton's used by some of the 1ksons marines. Psychically controlled, and provided by the Adeptus Mechanicus, these are merely an extension of the will of the user. So we will take a Dreadknight, with Personal teleporter, because that's the only kind worth taking. An incinerator is also tasty, for smashing holes in bubblewrapped lines. We can either go with psyflemen, or Purgation squads, as well, but automatons are cool, so we are taking one minimum.

Elites is a simple choice between purifiers and paladins - I'm going to take paladins simply because every other bastard does purifiers. Again, they represent a cults elite, with stronger Pyrae involved in the units (ah psycannons, you cover all evils)

So, at 2k points, I'm looking at something like this.

Coteaz, 400 henchmen........ Almost had you, right? This just in - Coteaz can die in a fire. Slowly.

GM, Rad Nades, Psycannon 225
Libby, 2 skulls, Shrouding, Sanctuary, Might, Warprift (RARGH WARP LIGHTNINGS !) 180

5 Paladins, 2 MC Cannons, Banner, Mixed Weapons 350

10 GKT, 2 Cannons, MC Hammer, Banner 465
5 GKT,  Cannon, MC Hammer, Banner  255

Psyflemen 135
Psyflement 135
DK, Porter, Incin 235

1985 Pts, leftovers can go to further skulls, extra psychic powers, some master crafted CC weapons on paladins... Take your pick.

GM Starts with the smaller 5 man GKT Squad, giving you 2 squads on deck with 2 cannons in each, for suppression. DK gets scout, paladins/melee GKT Combat squad probably start in reserve. Libby stays with the main army to provide shrouding, and psyflemen max range to allow for psychic hood free suppression. Allows you a solid second turn drop, with Psychic Communion helping to bring in your strikers. DK provides immediate pressure, and although solo, can be resilient when used correctly. Don't expect it to last long, but it keeps anti tank off your dreads and walking termis, and that's not to be denied.

So that's my take on a 1k sons list, terminator heavy. You could do an equal list, with GKSS in squads and rhinos, and Purifiers with cannons in rhinos, and pure psyflemen... but then your every second GK list on the Internet, and that's not really 1ksons is it?

:)

Thanks for reading,

SneakyDan

Comments (48)

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Whirlybird's avatar

Whirlybird · 731 weeks ago

Horrible horrible horrible. A new codex comes out and before you know it the Vampire-Counts-As crew are back. Just play the damn army you've got for Gods sake! We all know CSM is a nasty codex, but that's no excuse for this silliness.
13 replies · active 731 weeks ago
willydstyle's avatar

willydstyle · 731 weeks ago

Because CSM is *great* at representing pre-heresy Thousand Sons? Really? Don't be a bitch just because you're afraid of the shiny new toys.
Willy, shut up. Whirlybird(See, here I spell the full name because I like him) is saying what we're all thinking. Unfortunately, not enough people are saying this. So many people are saying "Ooh! Look! They're not another Marines book, they're something new! That's why they don't have tactical marines! They're different!" No they are not. They are just another marines book now, becuase the society of "screw my character's honor, he will be what I tell him to be, and damn the logic of Lysander also being a Level 3 Librarian" is proxying their Black Reach marines as them. Way to go GW. Release another Marines book? I'm sure that what happened with the last two can't POSSIBLY happen a third time...
Guestivus's avatar

Guestivus · 731 weeks ago

No, whirly and you are saying what nobody is thinking, because you're not actually thinking, you're just speaking words.

There's a MASSIVE difference between what Dan is doing and going 'hurr GW can interpret what I read for me hurr'.
SneakyDan's avatar

SneakyDan · 731 weeks ago

Spot on Guestivus, and to the naysayers -

Im custom building my entire army from the GK termy models. Shoulder pads, weapons, heads, hieroglyphics on the leg plates.... Do you put that much effort in? There is nothing wrong with counts as. I cant field 25 terminators in the chaos codex to represent my 1k sons pre heresy scarab occult. So im not gonna fuckin use that piece of shit codex. I like to have a nice, fluffy army, and still have it competitive.

The only counts as bullshit I dont approve of, is cross xenos with marines. I'm wearing terminator armour, im psychic, how does that NOT make it pre heresy thousand sons?

Fuck off back to your kiddy pool LGS, its my time and money, and I'll use it how i choose. I've also had it cleared with 7 different TO's, for this years tournament scene. Deal with it.
Huh? What's wrong with GKDar? :(
I agree with SneakyDan. If he's going through the effort of converting everything.. more power to him. The only thing I don't like is when ppl just use their army as anything they want without going through the effort of converting. It would be like using khorne berzerkers as GK. I'd be like LOL GTFO.
Samosaurus's avatar

Samosaurus · 731 weeks ago

I think this is probably the most perfect example of a rational and justified counts as army. There is nothing wrong with using a loyalist army as a base for a pre-heresy Marine army. The Chaos codex does not suit a pre-heresy Thousand Sons army (who pre-heresy were loyalist anyway), whilst an elite, loyalist and predominantly psychic army (Grey Knights) actually fits perfectly.

If you cannot see that then why are you even playing the hobby? If it's for the game playing then who gives a crap about the fluff, he is using a legitimate set of rules and is displaying everything WYSIWYG, and if it's for the modelling and fluff then you should be appreciating the effort in modelling and the near spot on Grey knight template for a Thousand sons army. Alternatively, if you are just trolling then keep trying :)
Hardly, you're an idiot.

"Just another marines book" - yeah, all those Guardsmen and Chimeras and lack of ranged fire support and no Speeders change NOTHING. Uh-huh.
I didn't know that my little plastic mans had honour...

And yeah, he's not saying what we're *all* thinking, as I in particular am *not* thinking that. I'm happy to see whatever cool counts-as armies these guys can put together.
You guys are hilarious.

Dan: "I've got a new GK list I wanna play"
You: "Okay, sounds fun!"
Dan: "Except mine are red and I call them Thousand Sons"
You: "ARGLE BARGLE"

Vince: "I've got a BA Jumper List"
You: "Great, sounds fluffy, just the way I like 'em!"
Vince: "Except they're purple and I call them Night Lords"
You: "ABLOOBLOOBLOOB"
I must hear these noises in real life....

Please send me an mp3 okay?
Me too please...
Guestivus's avatar

Guestivus · 731 weeks ago

This is nicely done, Dan. I'd interpret some of the ATS novel a little differently. Now, the real question is, do you have any ideas for modelling the bits? I think Scibor has some Egyptian SM helmets and Kromlech has some techno-Khopeshes.

And ignore the whining from the people who are unable to understand that interpretation takes more effort than blind dogmatism.
2 replies · active 731 weeks ago
I'm pretty sure he's getting some actual rubric heads from Vince from old TSon models...
Ooh, nice. That's awesome. Hells of expensive to get for a conversion lark, but if you have ready access there's none better. Khorne Berzerker helmets with the t-visor and the bunny ears shaved off or changed might work too.
pimpdaddyork's avatar

pimpdaddyork · 731 weeks ago

Please put space wolf bodies all over their bases. It will fit the fluff and make people even more mad.
Tecumseh Sherman's avatar

Tecumseh Sherman · 731 weeks ago

Is it just me, or are the Grey Knights perfect counts-as rules for an Admech army?
6 replies · active 731 weeks ago
Personally I use Space Wolves to represent my Tau. They're a better codex, so my mis-conceived fluff and man-boobs that I confuse for muscles tell me that it is okay.
Not so much, Tau are good. Pick a more intelligent argument next time, I'm sure you can copy paste your moral outrage from one of the other morons of your ilk.
Tecumseh Sherman 's avatar

Tecumseh Sherman · 731 weeks ago

Tau have a codex.

AdMech do not.

Therein lies the failure of your argument.
Damn you! Pre-empting me!
It would work pretty well, though I'm not sure how the psychic powers could be justified. Imperial Knights would work well as Dreadknights, and Skitarii as Henchmen. Both Techmarines and Inquisitors with their various equipment would work well to simulate the various Techpriest ideas, too.
Tecumseh Sherman 's avatar

Tecumseh Sherman · 731 weeks ago

Psychic powers can be justified by COMBAT DRUGS.

I was thinking that Skitarii would be straight up Grey Knights. Have you ever read Titanicus? The way Dan writes Skitarii, they basically turn everything to pulp in close combat. They're also described as having an awesome power weapon in one hand, and a gun (I think even lascannons) on the other arm. Psycannons terminators fit the bill. I think henchmen could be techguard instead.

Psyfleman dreads would be the heavy support weapon platforms they keep mentioning. (I think... cataphracts?) And yeah, dreadknights would totally be imperial knights.
Guestivus's avatar

Guestivus · 731 weeks ago

Personally I'm incapable of actually providing legitimate arguments against claims because I don't take seriously the context in which the claims are made, so I just make up strawmen that I can beat up to make myself feel better.
Yeah GK would make an ok admech army with the techmarines representing, archmagos/magos as they are pretty damn killy and could easily be S4 T4 +2 save. You could use henchmen for various types of tech guard. Even use the space monkey and say he is a magos armourers/weaponsmith.
Behold the rage that is born when we once more venture into the dark depths of the "Counts as" argument. I call it an argument because DEBATE is rational. Argument is not. Good times, and a nice idea. I'm working on my Grey Knights-counts-as-Necrons as we speak so I'll let you know how that ends up. ;)
1 reply · active 731 weeks ago
Pallys for Immortals? Or regular GKT?

Fun times. :)
Thousand Sons as Grey Knights just feels right to me. At the end of the day, I'd rather see majority converted/painted armies like the Night Lord Angels or the Thousand Knights, than have my fifth game vs Thunderwolf list 385833, or Red Razorspam.

Do what makes you happy, you've broken no 'rule'.
Angrymarine's avatar

Angrymarine · 731 weeks ago

Indeed, considering Grey Knights are simply elite, highly psychic marines, it could well fit a pre heresy 1000 sons pretty damn well. Nothing in the Chaos Marine codex really gives that feel, the Marine squads are rubics lead by a single Psychiker, which is a entirely different kettle of fish compared to what they were.

To be honest, it is incredably easy to interchange marine codexes anyways. Dreadknights could easily be a demon of some kind, Palidins as champions and verious squads as groups of psychicers focusing the will of the Runics. It's not the fault of the codex that GW have extenensively focused on humanity and hence made any humanity based codex easy to count as.

It is clear that the writer of this article has given some thought to the concept and is not a case of "new codex? I can just paint my guys silver!", but he has seriously thought and designed an army to use it. That is not the same as, say, using Tau with a Space Wolves codex with no meaningful changes. He's going through the entire ethic of justifying it and modifying many models.

Not quite the same as painting them sliver, as some are assuming.
Some excellent and rational reposes here guys; good to see :) .
Whirlybird's avatar

Whirlybird · 731 weeks ago

Funny how nobody uses an old codex to represent an army they want to play, its always the new hotness that is suddenly the best way of representing your army of choice. That's why Sethis's comment about GK counts as Necrons is right on the money!

I agree that CSM sucks from a fluff POV, I have 80 Chaos Cultists sitting on a shelf because Alpha Legion got nerfed, there won't be a solution until a Chaos Legions codex is released. Trying to justify using whatever the latest most highly powered codex to represent our disenfranchised army however just makes us look desperate and like we Chaos players are WAAC gamers of the worst kind.

Ultimately I guess I consider counts-as armies as rather rude, I've gone to the trouble of modelling and painting a WYSIWYG army, with all the troop types correctly represented. This is a courtesy to my opponent who can tell what he is facing, as well as part of the spectacle of the game, and I hope for the same sort of courtesy in return.

I guess the exception to this is armies that really can't be represented any other way, like Squats, Slann, Adeptus Arbites, Lost and the Damned or any of the other disappeared forces. I can see that in a friendly game a counts- as army might be unavoidable in these circumstances. You can tell when a gamer is using a count-as list for fluff reasons rather than to build a WAAC army, but while there is a Codex for your army please use it, or take your plastic army men off my table!
10 replies · active 731 weeks ago
I think lots of people use old codices to represent armies if the fluff is right. It's just when a new codex comes out, we suddenly have an opportunity to use it in new ways, so a bunch of great, creative people come out of the woodwork all at once. They also get coverage in the blogo-sphere because the codex is new.

I remember seeing on BoLS recently an Admech army based on the necron codex. Personally, if I were going to make a Lamenters army I would use the Space Marine Codex (as I feel it is the best fit for the Lamenters fluff). Would you then tell me the Blood Angels Codex is the Codex I should use and refuse to play me if I did not? Some true-scale marine players use the Dark Angels codex using the deathwing rules to represent what they think marines should be.

WYSIWYG still applies to counts-as. With Marines, Counts as is easily done WYSIWYG. Does it have a bolter and wear power armour? Then it could be in any number of armies. Are you going to turn down a player because a tactical marine has horns on his helmet? Would you turn down a game with me because some of my chaos marines have the Aquilla on their chest-plate? Stretching it a little further, if you see a Berserker riding a juggernaught, how hard is it to mentally replace that model with the statistics for thunderwolf cavalry? If it was a model with berserker parts riding a wolf, and the player claimed his army was 13th company, would you have a problem with that?

Maybe you can tell when a person is using counts as for fluffy reasons or for reasons of power level, but why does it matter? Why shouldn't a player be allowed to do what he wants with his plastic army men? If a player is not having fun with an old codex that fares poorly in the new environment why not let him use a newer list? Do you dislike competition? Would you allow a handicap if you are playing your brand new Grey Knights against Necrons? If it's your table, fine, you can do what you like with it. But don't tell me or anyone else what to do with my time and money.
Lurking Horror's avatar

Lurking Horror · 731 weeks ago

I keep clicking the "Like" button, but it only works once :)

Whirlybird - I don't see how using an army with "counts-as" rules can be considered <rude>.

You've gone to the effort of converting and painting an army of cultists. I applaud you for that. You obviously enjoyed converting, and painting, and were looking to used them on the table at some point. Nothing wrong there. Now look at what SneakyDan is doing - laying plans to convert, and paint, and use on the table at some point. See how that's the same? SneakyDan is embarking on a worthy challenge, and should be applauded.

If you've got issues with people using grey-plastic-marines as any number of armies, just say so. I know a lot of people prefer to play against painted armies, but its not up to you whether somebody else enjoys the painting side of the hobby as much as the next person. As long as all the models have the correct guns/equipment clearly shown on them, what honest difference does it make?
Lurking Horror's avatar

Lurking Horror · 731 weeks ago

On a slight tangent, until recently I didn't understand the point of having more than one power-armoured army. It just means that you've got two or three smaller armies when you could have had one massive one, right? When you buy a new model kit, how do you decide which army to paint it as? My original plan was to build up my Chapter of Space Marines (that's right, I'm mad enough to try... eventually), wysiwyg, so that I could use any of the loyalist Codecii with fully painted and accurately equipped models. Each individual "army" within the whole would be perfectly equipped, converted to show what they would be "counts-as", and nobody I have ever met or talked to in real life has a problem with this.
Lurking Horror's avatar

Lurking Horror · 731 weeks ago

While I still intend to follow this plan through for the most part, I will also be starting a Khornate Space Wolves army this year. But for a different reason. I will be starting this army as a project for paiting and fluff, and collecting a different "feel" of models. As far as rules go, obviously I'll be using the Space Wolf codex occasionally, but because the only difference between a Blood Claw and a Berserker is the colour of their armour, why couldn't I use the Chaos codex if I wanted to?

</end Wall of Text>

P.S. I dislike how the replies have a character limit! :(
Make an account :P.
I *would* do this, but it would NOT be fluffy for me to have a whole Chapter's worth of Scythes of the Emperor...at least, not at the end of M41!

lol
Say what? Your cultists DO have a Codex.

Rhymes with Gimperial Tard.
Angrymarine's avatar

Angrymarine · 731 weeks ago

The thing is, we already know what the old codexes can and can't do, but when a new comes along, it offers new possiblitys, hence it's only natural that we explore them because it was an option we never had perviously. and as long as the oppoments army is done pretty tasily well (Kroot will never have 3+ armour, ever), it works.

Again, you are making the asumtion that he is using 1000 sons from after they were infected by Chaos, a codex for pre-heresy marines do not exist. Hence using Grey Knights to repersent a highly psychic chapter of marines is well within reason, considering these are the 1000 sons we are talking about, the most psychic legion in existance and the option was simply not there before. Hence this adaptation is perfectly fine.
Guestivus's avatar

Guestivus · 731 weeks ago

I don't think the first claim is entirely true either. I've a terminator army that I use the Dark Angels rules for, though I considered seeing if I could make Loganwing make sense. I couldn't, so that was that, I kept using the DA rules.

Someone in the chatbox mentioned using the Black Templars Codex to represent Alpha Legion, with infilitrating veterans backed up by Space Marines with augmented rebels who are along for the ride.

I think your second clause isn't actually true either. Trying to justify using whatever codex works to let you use your Space Marines and their cultists together just makes you look like someone who wants to use the models you bought (and painted or converted or whatever). There is a solution, and it's Codex: IG, or IA9, or one of the IA Vraks books. Or heck, the aforementioned Black Templars solution, though it's not the interpretation I'd have of Alpha Legion.

The third clause I also think is problematic. I think it's even more rude to turn down someone who's also gone to the trouble of modelling and painting a WYSIWYG army (and in fact in this instance, probably likely to have done more modelling than you). I also don't think my opponents are too dumb to notice that my Red Space Marines have halberds, Storm Bolters, and there's a big book that says Grey Knights on it sitting in front of me on the table, particularly when I tell them beforehand. I think someone who has a counts-as army certainly owes it to their opponent to be more patient with explanations and clarity, but it's hardly impossible.

But all of this is inane anyway. If you really hate the amount of effort that goes into a good counts-as army then you're covered under the simple clause that nobody can force you to play a game you don't want to. Period. It doesn't matter why. Maybe you have a headache. Maybe you have to go early. maybe you don't feel like it. Or maybe you have other reasons. I don't think any of the ones you stated are particularly good reasons, but if you don't want to play nobody can make you, unless it's a tournament, where part of the issue is that you have signed on to play what the TO allows in, so clear whether counts-as is allowed with them beforehand or not.
Also... substitute all instances of 'clause' for 'claim in the above post, except for the last. Sheesh, this is what posting before breakfast does.
SneakyDan's avatar

SneakyDan · 731 weeks ago

Okay, I apologise for telling you to get fucked whirlybird - you can string together a tangible argument, and that is gold in my opinion.

On to what I'm doing with my GK/counts as 1k sons - Im personally using the following list.

GM, Psycannon, Rad Nades - 235
Libby, 1 Skull, Sanct/Shroud/Rift/Might - 175
5 Paladins, 2 MC Cannons, mixed weapons, Banner = 350
5 GKT, Psycannon, MC Hammer - 230
10 GKT, Psycannon, MC Hammer, Banner or psybolts, 2 x Falchions - 480
Psyflemen 135
Psyflemen 135

Is that an optimised 1750 list? Thats using the "best of" units in the codex? No. And even if it were, would I be less of a gamer for doing so? I don't know about you mate, but as far as gaming goes, I play to win. I do not cheat, bend rules, mismeasure, or roll dice out of sight, but nor do I write shoddy lists for the sake of someone elses feelings. This list is actually -deliberately- as soft as I am willing to go. I could probably make a better version, with Passbacks, scouting interceptors, and the like, but I've chosen not to. I won't make a bad list, I don't have it in me to do so, it makes the game a chore rather than fun. But what I have done is create a list that i think best suits my envisioning of the Scarab Occult. It's small, elite, has psychic marines, has okay fire support, no mechanised element (a common thread, of people that codex jump in 5th - ). On counts as in general - I think that you have to respect the work that people put into it. As people have said, if i plonked down my unconverted CSM terminators as "count as GK" even though they are all red and khorney, that would be shit.

But I'm not.
Well... As far as count-as shenanigans are concerned, a TS pre-Heresy army would be a nice thing to see, but this list is far too generic. As an example, I think the Librarian should be upgraded to Mastery level 3, in order to fit the whole 'Sorceror' theme. The Rad Grenades are out of character (use Brain mines instead), and the lack of Psybolts is disappointing.
1 reply · active less than 1 minute ago
For me, a TSon army MUST use Psybolts to rep Inferno Bolts. End of.
I don't see the problem in folks playing whatever codex they want. This is a game, and we're in it for the fun (and if you're not, you shoud think about it!).

Dan is taking the time to fully customize his army, and that to me is always rewarding as an opponent when I'm facing a beautiful, converted army vs. facing 50 grey plastic dudes and 7/8 tanks with different colors and different weaponry than they're supposed to have.
Fluff wise I think the biggest caveat is the proliferation of energy weapons but well, life ain't perfect!

Dan, please share some pics when you're done with your army!

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