Kirb your enthusiasm!

WEBSITE HOSTED AT: www.3plusplus.net

"Pink isn't a color. It's a lifestyle." - Chumbalaya
"...generalship should be informing list building." - Sir Biscuit
"I buy models with my excess money" - Valkyrie whilst a waitress leans over him


Friday, March 18, 2011

The Two Skills of 40K


There are a lot of big names in the 40K internet scene- I'm not going to even try go to into naming them all, because I will inevitably leave someone out and there will be hurt feelings and crying and internet rage and a great and bloody war will start and the streets will echo with the cries of lamenting women and dying men and quite frankly I don't want to have to worry about all that when I go out to do my laundry.

This brings up an interesting question, though: what does "being good at" 40K mean? I posit that it essentially breaks down into two very separate skills that tend to get clumped together, resulting in much of the internet arguments that abound.

Those of you who have played other games, especially Magic: the Gathering (which, yes, I will continue to mention in my articles because it is an excellent example of a "mature" competitive game system, both in terms of design and of player base) you may recognize this division, and I think it exists in many games where there is a major element of customizing a (list, army, deck, etc) from a range of available choices. Essentially, there are two kinds of "good" players- list-writers and generals; being a good general will help somewhat with list-writing, but not a lot, and vice versa. Many people are good at both to varying degrees, and the very best of players have to master not only each of the skills, but how to intertwine them. However, for a majority of players, we can differentiate them as two distinct abilities.



Generalship is the common perception of someone who is "good" at the game; we could further break it down into an incredible number of sub-skills, such as distance estimation, feinting, reading, general strategic awareness, etc, but for our purposes this single class alone is sufficient. It is the ability of a player to effectively utilize a list on the tabletop and bring it to victory, even in the face of poor odds, awkward dice rolls, poorly-placed terrain, unfamiliar missions, etc. it covers not only familiarity of one's own list and the minutia of its capacities but also the enemy general's and how best to defeat it.

A good general has a feel for how and when to move his units, and how to position members of the squads; of how far he can expect to move and thus how close he needs to be for various gambits; the rough probabilities of various rolls and how likely things are to go awry as a result of poor luck and thus what kind of risks any given move should entail; a thorough knowledge of the rules and how best to use them to his advantage in a legal manner; and many, many more. Generalship is an active skill, one gained mainly through play experience- all the internet talk in the world won't make you any better at playing the game. It comes from layers upon layers of intuitive understanding built up over previous games such that the player does not have to consciously think about many of the details of what he is doing, greatly freeing their mind to consider more long-range implications or details.

To contrast, the skill of list-building has absolutely nothing to do with experience on the tabletop. (That's a bit of a lie- there are limits to list-building skill born out of generalship because if you don't know what works, you can't build a good list. Still.) List-building is the other half of the game of 40K: creating effective armies from the options available in the various codices. Whereas generalship is an open-ended skill entailing vast numbers of interrelated choices, list-building is much more finite, but also much more precise; the addition or removal of a single Meltagun is a much more important decision when it is multiplied over the course of every game in a tournament.

List-building is a skill of interactions of a list of elements: do I have enough anti-tank to serve my purposes? Can I expect to move quickly enough to get to objectives? How do I deal with each of the major army archetypes in the game? (Metagame is a factor in list-building, but not to the degree that many people seem to think. You want to avoid being grossly disadvantaged against common foes, but building to beat them is just folly.) Do I have a sufficient selection of tools to allow me many solutions to different problems? Am I sufficiently resilient that my army will still be functional after a round of bad luck? Notice the repeat of the word "sufficient" above: wringing every last drop of efficiency out of a list is the goal of list-building, and that always involves making choices of balance of the different elements. There are no "perfect units" that do everything we need without weaknesses for minimal price; there are always tradeoffs to be made. Whether these trades are worth it or not is largely the determiner of whether a unit is good or not (in a particular list.)

Good list-building is born more out of theory than generalship is, although it still involves plenty of experience, albeit of a different type. Like generalship, it comes from extensive practice writing various kinds of lists and assessing their success on various fronts. Skill at list-building does not come without some testing, as it is important to determine what works and what doesn't, but it is not particularly dependent on the actual quality of play involved. (Always remember: winning a game doesn't mean you played well, and losing doesn't mean you played poorly.)

Is list-building really a different skill than generalship? Yes, it is. You can have a strong sense of how elements interact with each other and how the game functions without having the presence of mind and intuitive knowledge to be a good general. Likewise, one can have acute strategic instincts and an exhaustive list of strategies to use without really understanding the numerics of how different units compare in terms of efficiency. Of course, in the real world you will virtually never find someone who is extremely good at one without at least some skill in the other, but in theory it is possible- more commonly, there will be varying degrees of imbalance between the two. A good general with poor list-building (and that refuses to use other people's lists) will consistently win with subpar armies; a good list-builder with poor generalship will do mediocrely with good armies- undoubtedly most tournament players have met one of these people at some point.

So how does all of this result in internet arguments? In my eyes, it all comes back to the "I won therefore I'm right" fallacy, or in more general terms, "Army XX has done well therefore that proves it's awesome." Good generals can take poor (or, more commonly, mediocre) armies to victories, thus "proving" that they're good. I have long said that I don't accept the validity of individual results without a good structure of theory to explain them- this is why, despite CSM, Orks, and Daemons having taken many victories at top tournaments, I do not believe they are good armies. It's not simply a matter of "It shouldn't be good in theory therefore I must invent a new theory"- I am well aware that the factors that make for a good army are varied and complex; what is worthless in one codex may be gold in another, and what appears terrible may actually be quite useful. However, all too often these explanations boil down to "you just don't understand my army," with no further description of how these factors work- and I am a firm believer that if you can't explain how something works, you're not making a convincing argument about it and very well may not fully understand it yourself.

(And just to make things clear: this article is not intended to be an offhanded jab at Fluger, Jarelli, or any of the other people I have argued with recently or in the past. I am not trying to imply that they are bad at one or more of the above and thus, by elimination, that I am right. While I may consider myself to be a pretty reasonable list-writer, I am by no means the best and there are still many, many things I am trying to wrap my head around. I am wrong just as often as anyone else and my words should no more be taken as gospel than anyone else's.)

Comments (39)

Loading... Logging you in...
  • Logged in as
Good article. The Triforce of victory at 40k is generalship, list-building and good luck. You've described very well the first two, and there's not much you can do about luck, really. My only advice is to invest in some quality dice. It has made a significant difference for me.
6 replies · active less than 1 minute ago
Actually, you can do lots of things to limit the influence of luck.
Absolutely, I meant there's not much you can do about luck itself.
I think I misunderstood what you meant.

Yes it's true that you can limit it, but you it will always be a factor regardless. The best laid scheme will fall apart if you roll enough ones.
Sure, but that's not what you said at first, check your first post ;) No big deal though. Maybe you can read your post in different ways.

Nice article btw Puppy! :P
I guess "Triforce of victory" is maybe a little strong, as not all factors have the same weight. However, they pretty much are the 3 key factors of victory.

Personnaly, I would rank them in the following order:
1-Generalship
2-List-building
3-Luck
I would list them as such. luck>skill>list Luck trumps all.
I tend to find list-building skills to be widely overrated. Not to be mean towards Kirby, but did we really need two articles to realize Purgation squads and Psy-Riflemenare 'teh shit'?

Building an effective army isn't that hard if you understand the key concepts behind 5th Edition and choose not to follow the biased view of the average 40k player. Designing an original but still effective army list is, of course, a whole other issue.
2 replies · active 738 weeks ago
See, I'd almost take the other tack. It's much easier for me to intuit and to puzzle out the elements that are on the table and their interactions in my head during a game than it is for me to abstractly think of lists while building.

Which is to say, on-table decision making (though I'd hardly say I'm good at it, just better than I am at list-building) comes to me more easily, and so I like the theory posts because it shows me something I'm not very good at.
Well, to each his own, I suppose. I deeply enjoy number crunching and maths, and tend to know my army books by heart, so I don't think designing an at least decent list is a hard thing to do.
willydstyle's avatar

willydstyle · 738 weeks ago

I think a useful discussion would be "what keeps people from being good list writers." I know that for myself it's often because I get fixated on certain units being "cool," or thinking about how well they can perform in certain circumstances, despite knowing that those same units are generally sub-par.
1 reply · active less than 1 minute ago
Comp and the Jervis-fostered stigma attached to winning.
Good Read my man, I agree that these are two totally different skill sets, and I really enjoy how you highlighted that being good at one or the other can still equal wins on the table top.
I feel like you wrote this entire article about me! Seriously though, competitive list are the list that can reduce the element of luck aka reduce the probability of things you do well not happening. Not perhaps increasing the chance but lowering the chance of it not happening. This is why Redundancy plays such a role in 40k at the moment.

"The vehicle damage table is a fickle mistress"
1 reply · active 738 weeks ago
It is a lot like a 2+ save on a one wound model.

It can take either massive amounts of punishment or collapse on the first roll. Both happen without any indication.

Hard but brittle, imo.
Good Article Puppy. I do think these are two totally different sets of skills that do intermingle the better you get at playing with little toy soldiers. And I want to say the next paragraph isn't a shot at anyone or meant to offend.

I think I would add is that as your "General" skill goes up it actually opens more opportunities in your list building skills. Things that were "sufficient" before are now overkill as your skill level has increased. So you shift slightly away from that start to be able to hone your lists for even the more obscure threats out there. Honestly this to me is where a lot of the breakdown is in discussions concerning unit types and army lists and leads to the feeling of "cause it works for me" as an arguement. The tenets of list building change as your skill as a general increases but most people who are excellent list builders but only mediocre generals get locked into specific views and approaches. IMO
4 replies · active 738 weeks ago
"... but most people who are excellent list builders but only mediocre generals get locked into specific views and approaches. IMO"

What are you saying there? I don't quite grasp it.
In the words of a interesting politician, "Please explain"
That statement is mostly in reference to a lot of army list builders on the internet. Basically if you follow the corollary presented by AP in that "Generalship is an active skill, one gained mainly through play experience" then it follows that mediocre generals probably don't play as much. But the internet allows them to build and discuss lists. Tweaking them, math hammering them, and generally working toward finding an optimum build. And once they've done this, analyzed units into the ground, most of them adhere to it like it's gospel. Anyone who differs from preferred units is taking suboptimal lists or doesn't understand list building. Hence being locked into specific views and approaches.
Well, the skills aren't totally separate, it's true, but I think that's just a case of a good general making the best use of his resources- levels of sufficiency haven't changed, he's just using what he has better.
Hulksmash's avatar

Hulksmash · 738 weeks ago

If you're using something more efficiently then you don't need as much of it to make it work right? So whether your views of sufficiency have changed the actual need has. And this allows you to put those points into tweaking for less standard threats but one that you know you might hit at the top tables.
General Smooth's avatar

General Smooth · 738 weeks ago

Great article puppy. Some really good points made all the more enjoyable by its tone.

Also an insightful comment by Hulksmach I thought.
Nice one.

List building really is, imo, foundational to success on the table.

A good general may well be able to make a weaker list over perform.
A poor general may well be able to make a stronger list under perform.

But the good general already hits the ceiling. In playing well, he cannot get any better on table. The poor general can always accidentally make good calls. The poor general has the opportunity to improve.

The poor list will forever hamper the general, like some poorly laid out CBD with fiddly roads and odd numbering systems.

Bad design limits uppermost potential.

You may be able to kill that deer with a knife, but I'll be using the rifle, thanks.

That people keep saying they get spade [unit] to dig a hole, when they could be using an excavator, is just a big logic drop.
And then they get attached to the spade and get all huffy when its flaws are pointed out.
That makes intelligent discussion impossible. Keep your subjective reasoning out of an objective argument. Seriously.

+++

Can the new C:GK still be taken as allies?
I don't think so, but I haven't read everything written about them.
Please tell :)
6 replies · active 736 weeks ago
I actually think it works both ways: as you say, a mediocre list will limit a good general, but a middling general with an excellent list will also fail to perform to standard.

But yes, I strongly agree- it is the purview of good generals with poor list-building to shout the virtues of bad units without regard for any sort of logic or analysis because they have managed to win with them.

And no, allies are completely gone from the GK book. SoB can still be taken by other Imperials, though.
Personally I don't think any good "general" has hit the ceiling yet in our hobby. In regards to people getting attached to ideas and then getting huffy when flaws are pointed out people the same can be said for internet list builders though.
But what if I want to only dig a small and precisely measured hole... Wouldn't the spade be better?
Well, analogies only go so far ;)

But there is nothing that really warrants an inferior unit doing a job. When I say inferior, I am not saying cheaper - ie, 60 pts of Grots hold an Objective just as well as 200 pts of Boyz.
I am saying, don't kid yourself that 200 pts of Assault Marine is as killy as 200 pts of Hammernator.

As far as accurate versus inaccurate digging, which wasn't really the point of my spades and diggers analogy, yes a tl-Lascannon is better than a Battlecannon at finishing off that last Crisis suit. But I was talking about inferior units and superior units in a bang for buck sense.

Plus, diggers can be laser guided and satellite guided, making them more accurate over a 100 metre square field than a spade job
:P

+++

Do you catch my drift?
Yeah, don't mind me - I just couldn't help myself. ;)

Although 100m square is not quite what I meant by "small," but I dig you bro... you see what I did there?.. :D
Oh - and for the sake of clarity... I do totally agree with what you are saying...
Interesting article, Puppy. As another commenter mentioned, I too felt like you were writing about me.

I think I understand list building theory at least well enough to put something pretty decent together with my current set of models and understand why this unit is good or that one is suboptimal. However, I get the crap kicked out of me on the tabletop most times.

I don't have a tremendous amount of games under my belt yet and I'm getting better (more ties, less severe losses, and once in a while a win), but often after games I look back at what I did and think "holy shit that was stupid, why did I play it that way". I think part of my problem is not wanting to make my opponent wait on me while I think out my turn in so I take actions without considering them enough. I also forget about special rules sometimes, like Acute Senses or Move Through Cover, for example. Another big factor I think is that I just don't know enough about non-marine books to know what opponents can/will do all the time.

I realize you mentioned that "all the internet talk in the world won't make you better at playing the game" and the best thing is just to keep playing and learning, but I wonder if anyone can suggest anything to help with generalship and getting the most I can from my ass-kickings on the way to competence. I was thinking of writing down mistakes I make to help me remember not make them again, for example.
4 replies · active less than 1 minute ago
Reviewing games and posting battle reports I've found to be a huge boon. Vassal is great here, because you can replay the whole thing step-by-step, but if you take photos of normal tabletop battles that can work is well. What's important is to be able to look at what you did on each turn and where you made your mistakes as well as how they cascaded forward and affected future decisions.

Talking with your opponent after the game is also a good way to do this, especially if they are on par with or better than you- get their honest opinion on how you did, what they would have done in your place, etc. It can be difficult to put yourself across the table and see things from their perspective, but it's a huge boon to be able to do so; what looks like a hopeless fight to you may look just as hopeless to them.

Another big thing: think on your opponent's turn. it can be tough in 40K because you're still active on both players' turns (rolling saves, etc), but figure out what you're going to be doing on your next turn. In fact, you should ideally be doing this on your own turn as well, figuring out your moves a turn in advance. If you're looking a turn into the future, you will often be able to outplay those people who are just thinking about immediate consequences.

As for learning other books... well, the only way is really to read them. If you have friends who are generous, borrow the books from them for a time; if not, you may have to buy them yourself. (Or, you know, piracy, but how you feel about that is completely up to you.) I've read all of the codices at LEAST two dozen times, and more than that for the ones I consider myself to be competent with ('Nids, DE, BA, SW, IG, Tau). Knowing what your opponent's models are capable of is a huge boon.

Reading battle reports from good players will also help- if your browse the YTTH archives, a lot of Stelek's old batreps are excellent for this, as he lays out his decision processes turn-by-turn so you can understand why he does the things he does. Unfortunately he doesn't really write these anymore, which is unfortunate, but the old ones are still very helpful. There aren't a lot of people who do good batreps (in part because they're a LOT of work, I must admit), but analyzing any battle report you can get your hands on can be good practice; go through it slowly, as if you were looking at the game from one of the player's perspectives. Why did they make the choices they did? Where are the mistakes? What could have been done differently? For the lowest tier you may not be able to get much, as the mistakes are simply too fundamental to work around, but in most cases you can at least get some info out of things.

Going back to Vassal again, watching other people's games can be very helpful; there are some pretty excellent players who hang around on there and can often be found online. Even just watching their games- and, if they're amenable, asking a few questions, though I would suggest keeping that to a minimum unless you know them well- can be a big help, as you can see new ways of playing things out that you might not otherwise have thought of. Watching games between players you know are good at your FLGS is useful, too, but a little harder to do.

You might also find this older article of mine useful: http://kirbysblog-ic.blogspot.com/2010/05/playing...
Thank you for taking the time to write out that long reply! I do need to vassal more often. I used to try to get local guys to chat about stuff like that post game, but most of them didn't seem too into it with the exception of one guy who's pretty far on the competitive end of the spectrum who I just met recently, need to play with him more.

I have all the codices on my computer and have skimmed them each, maybe I should go through and try making lists with them to make myself take a more in-depth look.

Batreps are something I haven't looked at a lot. Many on forums seem to be pretty shit. I'll check out Stelek's.

Thanks again for the good advice and articles.
It isn't necessary to go so far as to build lists, but if you can find a site that has good lists for armies, looking over how each of them works is a decent plan. I think it's more important to be able to know all the wargear, rules, and options that the different opposing units can have than anything else, and understand what the common "builds" for the unit are as well as how they work and their weaknesses. You should, for example, recognize min-GH LasPlas, Bolt 1KSons, Melta-bunker Tacticals, and other common units at a glance.

Stelek's are good, when you can find them. Blog batreps are hit or miss, but there are some good ones out there. Avoid forums like the plague when it comes to battle reports.
If I amy add to Abuse's excellent reply: make yourself a "cheat sheet", i.e. write down a list of the stuff you forget often, and common tactical moves you need to keep in mind. Then refer to that list occasionnaly during the game.

For example, I often forgot to roll for Red Thirst with my BA, so that is something I would write down on my cheat sheet.: "Don't forget Red Thirst!"

To make it more effective, you can sort your list by stage of the game. Like, make a list of all the pre-game Scout moves you need to do, and all the units you need to have on objectives by turn 5, and so on.
abortedsoul's avatar

abortedsoul · 737 weeks ago

This article was well reasoned, well written. I really enjoyed it. It was a delight to read, and I really am thankful you posted this. Every article should be this good.

(I'm not trying to be presumptuous, but is it safe to assume that you are well educated? To me this reeked of high-level scholarship, probably involving peer review.)
1 reply · active 737 weeks ago
Ha ha; well-educated? I'd like to think so, but it's mostly just well-read. Budgetary concerns have so far kept me from being able to finish pro school at college, which hopefully will be remedied in the near future.
WHY DO YOU HATE ME!?!?!? J/K!

Honestly, I think my main issue is I have a hard time articulating what I intrinsically understand about things. Or, essentially, its me arguing in reverse from your position. Just because you can make a better coherent written argument about why something is one way or the other is meaningless to me if I can see the opposite results on the table repeatedly. You say X should happen, and make a good reason why, yet when I play X doesn't happen, and the reasons are often situational or obscure.
3 replies · active 737 weeks ago
Anecdotal reasoning is a powerful force and often difficult to ignore, but it can end up skewing things further than what is actually the truth of the matter. As long as you're actually absorbing and analyzing the input of others along with your own experiences, cogent writing should naturally follow. Reach out of the comfort box :) .
Malcolm Gladwell talks about this phenomenon in Blink. The concept of understanding something instinctively but not being able to articulate it.
Well, if theory doesn't match reality, you need a new theory, yeah. :P However, "I just know this is how it is" isn't a very compelling argument because you've provided no support for your beliefs other than assertion that they match your experience (which, if they didn't, we would have to assume you were crazy.)

Doesn't mean you're necessarily wrong, but it's going to be hard to convince people on the basis of a vague feeling alone.

Post a new comment

Comments by

Follow us on Facebook!

Related Posts Plugin for WordPress, Blogger...