Kirb your enthusiasm!

WEBSITE HOSTED AT: www.3plusplus.net

"Pink isn't a color. It's a lifestyle." - Chumbalaya
"...generalship should be informing list building." - Sir Biscuit
"I buy models with my excess money" - Valkyrie whilst a waitress leans over him


Wednesday, April 27, 2011

Optimisation: Kirby's take


fester and Mike both encouraged the completion of this article with their respectively linked articles. Yay for them. A common theme throughout the Internet when a tournament is run is the mocking laughter by the general masses who go against competitive play (I'm looking at certain forums and blogs) when the list isn't the perfect and precise list construction often recommended for tournament play. I notice a lot of griping directed at blogs who encourage such competitive play, specifically levelled at their lists and how boring, bland and generally 'spammy' they are whilst being touted as the theoretically best lists out there. Yet referring to the previous point, they don't always seem to win. Let's look at Tony at Adepticon and NOVA or MVB's Imperial Guard list at BFS. They are excellent lists, run by players with extremely high knowledge of the game and their army. But they aren't the ultimate in optimisation. There are tweaks which could be made to make the list 'more optimal' but this doesn't matter to the success of these players due to the balance between power and personal comfort with the list they have generated.

fester and Mike have explored this concept quite well in their articles so I'm not going to repeat what they've said too much but rather drop my opinion and thoughts on the matter.

In the end, general ability trumps army list but player ability can only get you so far. If you don't have the tools for the job, you're going to have a hard time winning no matter how good you are. This is a key reason many of the older books like Orks, Daemons, Chaos, etc. are considered 'lesser' armies. Even if you're a significantly better general than your opponent, if they are using the new books with a decent army list it's going to be a tough game. When you get generals of equal skill level however, the list begins to matter significantly in what options the opposing generals have and how capable they are of flexing their intellect on the tabletop.

In theory, the optimised lists popularised by YTTH are the best around. They have the least (if any) wasting of points. They have a combination of maximum firepower, defenses, durability, flexibility, duality, speciality and often focus a lot on mobile shooting units coming at you from all sides. There's nothing wrong with these lists but they do generally fit a quite specific mindset (MSU based) which does require a lot of practice before it is understood. Many people seem to think they can take an Internet list and start winning right away. Not going to happen, no matter how good the list is. Another associated problem with these lists is the initial start up cost which is often in the several hundreds of dollar range depending upon where you live and how well you know your local provider.

What this boils down to is not that you shouldn't listen to the blogs who expound upon these concepts and produce army lists, I'm one of them and that would be counter-intuitive! Same with AbusePuppy, SneakyDan, Sir Biscuit, etc. We all have something to offer as long as you don't expect our copy-paste lists to work. They might be amazing lists in theory and work for us but unless you have very similar thought patterns and personal preferences to the list writer, you're not going to enjoy the same level of comfort and therefore success with the list. Rather, use the ultimate optimisation lists from the Internet as a guideline. Take the list and make it yours and you'll find yourself not only enjoying yourself more but winning more. This will generally involve some loss of optimisation as the proposed lists online are generally pretty tight and have little wiggle room in this regard (I generally have around 50-100 points of 'options' whilst Stelek generally has zero).

Is this bad? No. It's still ultimately going to be a good list (unless you butcher it :P) as the core concepts of good list building are there. There might be some drop-off compared to the original list or other fully optimised lists and if you run up against an equally skilled opponent with such a list you may be at a slight disadvantage but as Mike points out in his post, your army is more likely more reliable and you have fiddled your list so it fits you. These two points can overcome that tiny disparity in theoretical list power on the tabletop. Ultimately this is trying to say fully optimised armies aren't the only way. They may be the theoretically best armies out there but that doesn't mean they are going to work for everyone and having a tiny bit of unoptimised aspects in your army whilst still having a core list which is very good, doesn't change the list so it's terrible.

In the end as fester said, make sure you are comfortable with the army. Some people have the ability to switch armies at the drop of a hat and mesh with their new playstyle. You'll often find you are capable of doing this after many years of playing multiple armies as you gain the experience to do so but you'll still often have a particular preferred way of playing each army or specific list. We're human and it comes with the territory. Embrace it and use what you see online as inspiration or a guideline and remember, a good list doesn't have to be perfectly optimised.

Now go have fun. Or something WAAC like that.

Comments (47)

Loading... Logging you in...
  • Logged in as
YAY! This article makes me feel better about taking Trukks!

With that out of the way, I think that this is something that REALLY needed to be written. It's well-written, and does a great job of pointing out the often-forgotten importance of customizing your list to your individual play-style.

Here's a question, though: is there a type of "player preference" that is just BAD? I've got a lot of lust for light, fast, vehicles, which serves my Orks and DE pretty well. But one of my friends is obsessed with all-footslogging, all-shooting armies. Can that work out for him, or is he just doomed?
3 replies · active 726 weeks ago
You should tell him to check out GK. Really.
willydstyle's avatar

willydstyle · 726 weeks ago

SW works fine too.
Sometimes; yes. Each codex has their strengths and if you go away from it completely, it's square peg, round hole.

i.e. going for a pure assault force for any army = lose versus a good list/general as you can't break through to the juicy bits
Kudos for finishing this article Kirby. I know we discussed it a bit on my blog but my thoughts on optimization boil down to your list being able to do three things...

1. Kill tanks
2. kill infantry
3. hold objectives

Can you list do all that reliably across multiple units? Then you have all the basis of a list you need. Any further optimization and tweaking is good. But further optimization should be based on play experience not "internet wisdom."

By all means netlist, but look at that as the beginning of your list. Not the end.
2 replies · active less than 1 minute ago
Well said!

I personally can't run the same list over and over and over. I get bored. I play this game for fun (and to show off my pretty pretty dolls) and if I'm bored then I'm not having fun. I guess I'm old fashioned in that I will play with different army / unit builds until I find what fits me and what works for me. A good friend once said that he likes to lose, because it helps him grow stronger.
1 reply · active 726 weeks ago
I'm with you! I play SW, and last few games have done everything from Logan+Term troops, to three Scouts choices, you name it. Anything to shake things up, I too get bored playing the same list. The 3xScout list failed miserably, but it was ALOT of fun to play.
I think that sometimes overly optimizing is not optimal ;) . By that I mean that if you have 5 melta-veteran units, then a 6th melta-vet, even if it's the "optimal" use of points, may not be the best use of adding something to the army. Even if less optimal, an Inquisitor Lord from WH with 3 melta-warriors would bring in Psy defense that's otherwise not in the army. Sometimes the intangible bonus of filling in a weakness or a role is worth more than the unit's value on its own. I think a melta squad is more optimal for Guard in their CCS, but I'd run a plasma squad anyhow, because it's something that is otherwise hard to get in the army with as much utility as getting them together with the guy who will give them twin-linking orders. The problem with purely optimal lists is that they often max out on the basic firepower, but neglect special-purpose firepower, disruption units, etc, because the value of those units is more in gameplay than in power statistics.
3 replies · active 726 weeks ago
That's my biggest beef with Stelek-style lists. The inherent weakness of spamming the same unit over and over. Taking nothing but say MeltaVets or Autocannons creates tactical weaknesses that a canny opponent can exploit. While taking a more diverse selection of units that fill the same role (but less "optimally") gives you additional capabilities and fewer weaknesses overall.

Too many "optimal" MeltaVets and you'll have a traffic jam trying to move forward, while the guys in the backfield won't have anything to do at all. Taking only autocannons to pop armor optimally doesn't work so well against a force of Monsterous Creatures with 3+ saves and 6 or more wounds. So adding in some Lascannons or even Missile Launchers will address that weakness.

These are all tactical considerations that come out of testing and practice, which there is no substitute for. You can optimize for a given criteria all day long. But until you test your assumptions, you won't know if the criteria you selected was worthwhile or not.
I think the best list Stelek ever made, at least conceptually (if not necessarily on the tabletop), was that Blood Angels list with the heading 2+2+2+2... The reason is that it had double of every unit so that the enemy couldn't just pick out the one unit that worried him and get rid of it, but by not spamming 4-6 of the same unit, he covered every base. Even if not optimal in terms of the most damage against MEQ, or against AV11, or against AV12, or whatever single set of criteria you'd pick to optimize against, it is an excellent concept in the idea of:
1) pick only good units. Not necessarily the best, but don't run something bad and say "it fills a role"
2) run 2 of every good unit so you're not dependent upon a single unit
3) run different types of units so you have all kinds of firepower available, and also all kinds of tactics

A lot of spam lists, as you say, decide to only focus on a doing a few things well rather than all that is available in the Codex, and while they look better when their chosen target appears on the field, they are more vulnerable to bad matchups.
There are some units that are so reliable that they don't need backups. Like Hellhounds for fast blocking and interference. So taking 2 doesn't give you any real advantage over having one.

In the case of a Leman Russ Demolisher, you need one for putting insta-killing wounds on T5 or 2+ save units. But while you don't really need a 2nd, you do need another Marine-killing large blast somewhere. So by taking a Vanilla Russ as backup you have that redundancy for killing power armored guys, but you also have the ability to throw that AP3 blast 72" if you need to. They also occupy different parts of the board during a game. So you have overlap, but also unique abilities that address your weaknesses and allow you to exploit opportunities that may arise.
Nicely put Kirby! It takes knowledge to be a good player and familiarity to bring it home.
Great Article. I guess that is why I get in trouble sometimes on the forums because I fight against redundancy and optimized lists. My 40k experience coincides with your article based upon the idea that whatever army I play I prefer close combat to shooting. Whether is has been guard with Straken and Daemonhunters (When we could), Tyranids (Last edition), Space Marines, Space Wolves, or Grey Knights, my playstyle is assault oriented. Of course I somewhat balance my list with longrange and or tank busting elements, but I love assault.

We should have fun playing OUR armies. If we choose to change then so be it. Great article again Kirby

Spaguatyrine
I think this discussion needs a definition of 'optimal'.

This is a term gets thrown around a lot (along with 'competitive') as though there is some sort of objective standard that army lists can be measured against, and superfluous units identified. But I think you would have a hard time proving that or even getting any two people to agree on exactly what they mean. Optimal for what? What is the metric you are optimizing?

How does one define a successful list/player except by success on the table? Up until models hit the table it is all just a thought experiment as to what is good and what is not. Lots of times things look great on paper and just don't work on the table, and vice versa.
3 replies · active 726 weeks ago
I'd disagree :P.

Optimal is all about necessary upgrades and cramming as much useful items into your list. For example, Tacticals w/Power Fists are not terrible but they aren't optimal. It's an excessive upgrade which isn't needed. There are of course some who believe this is a good upgrade where you can get arguments whether or not it is optimal but you don't really need a definition for optimal other than what the English language gives us.

Ultimately optimal lists minimise excessive upgrades to bring more firepower or effective units to the table top. The problem some would argue against this is those units are often useless outside of their couple of rolls. For example, small Grey Hunter/ASM units might be pretty decent in combat and if you can get 2 or 3 of the smaller squads to charge something, they certainly don't suck. But alone they do. Larger squads don't have this issue.

Very true to paper versus tabletop though.
Sir_Prometheus's avatar

Sir_Prometheus · 726 weeks ago

No.....I agree with Bodiless on this, though I think I can state it a bit clearer......optimal against what?

Autocannons are awesome against the lighter AVs, can't really hurt AV13. Now, if you see lots and lots of rhinos (and most of do), that's pretty optimal. If you see tons and tons of predators, well, then autocannons might be able to stun them, but are kinda minimal.
"Optimal is all about necessary upgrades and cramming as much useful items into your list."

Here I think you have just pushed the problem down the road into two different words: necessary and useful.

Necessary to do what? Useful for what? How do you define effective unit? This is the point Sir_Prometheus is making as well, and I entirely agree. These are terms that get used all the time, but they are only meaningful in context and relative to some standard. It depends on the rest of your list, your opponent's list, your playstyle, their playstyle, etc etc. There are so many variables to control for that I just don't see list Theoryhammer, which is the basis for almost every discussion of 'optimal' units as being all that useful. If it works well on the table for a given player, then it is a good choice.
General Smooth's avatar

General Smooth · 726 weeks ago

I don't mind playing against netlists but It feels like a lazy way to try and get an ego boost to pick someone else's hard work thinking you can throw it on a tabletop expecting it to win on its own. Now don't get me wrong some people hate list building and just want to play. Kewl beans! but put the time in and learn how to play it please! Please!

It's likely you'll eventually want to tweak.

Anyway Well said kirby. I mean some players can even beat good players with orks ;-p
DeMysteriis's avatar

DeMysteriis · 726 weeks ago

I see way more complaining that the lists winning tournaments aren't competitive enough, or that the other armies weren't competitive enough, or etc.
I wandered my way here because the min/max of certain style lists just suck the hobby out of the game. We are all not tournament players, but we don't want to waste time and money on bad units. Right now I am working on finding that balance.
Sir_Prometheus's avatar

Sir_Prometheus · 726 weeks ago

I've spent a little time on YTTH now, and I have to say I'm not impressed with Stelek. He likes to build lists.......not a robust thinker.

I think I'll echo a thought a few others had, though I think I can put it in a different light:

One of the huge problems with current forum-40k meta-think is totally needless spamming. Stellek is like the king of this.

I happen to like Landraiders, so I'm going to talk about LRs, but this isn't about LRs, so don't reply with some debate about the value of LRs.

Let's pretend that LRs are the best, most efficient transport ever. Someone like Stellek computes that say, the Crusader is x% more efficient than a Redeemer cuz the current metagame favors dire-avengers, and hurricane bolters are just the best thing ever at killin gdire avengers.

We build a list the at requires LRs, Stellek builds a list that uses 2 Crusaders. He will also tell you that you're an idiot, and "don't understand the game" for not taking 2 crusaders also.

Me, I want two LRs, I take a crusader and a redeemer. Why? Because they're substantially the same, but flamestorm cannons are great at killing marines, and there's a chance I may want to kill a MEQ in cover someday.

To bring it back to real world 40k, (hah!) what this reflects is things like Psyfledreads and rhinos. Current metagame favors rhinos pretty heavily, and psyflemen are fantastic at killing rhinos, so people like Stellek want to build list with 6 psyflemen.

But, god dammit, not every vehicle in the game is a rhino, it really isn't!

For sake of all our sanity, can we admit that not every rhino needs to be filled with plasma-melta-powerfist, and not every dread needs to have autocannons? Every long fang squad has to have 5 missiles! Heavy bolters, plasma cannons and MMs all have purposes too! (nor, btw, does every crisis suit have to have missile pod-plasma) dig, dig
14 replies · active 726 weeks ago
Sir_Prometheus's avatar

Sir_Prometheus · 726 weeks ago

*NOT every long fang..
Marshal Wilhelm's avatar

Marshal Wilhelm · 726 weeks ago

I want a 5 man Pack of Fangs in a Rhino. 2 MM and 2 PC. To act like a MM Bunker, but able to shoot stuff if the enemy remains out of MM range. Of course, the list needs other tempting targets to stop it from getting stun/shaken into tomorrow.
No one likes the idea :( .... lol

ah well.

I am not sure HB would be effective though - what can they do that frags or Grey Hunters cannot?
Marshal Wilhelm's avatar

Marshal Wilhelm · 726 weeks ago

Bruce, it seems I have caught up an interesting transmission.
Really Alfred?
Yes here it is"
" (nor, btw, does every crisis suit have to have missile pod-plasma) dig, dig"

Jumpin' jackrabbits! Warm up the car, Alfred, I need to put my undies on the outside. And I haven't even had breakfast, have they no decency?!

:P
Marshal Wilhelm's avatar

Marshal Wilhelm · 726 weeks ago

In the continued vein of good nature and being happy to disagree, I thought I would [try] to find some Tau batreps by Stelek. I am not arguing for or against what you said about him not being a robust thinker. I just wanted to show that his philosophy works, and is one that we can ape, as he has batreps.
Your plasma-fusion may well be the bees knees, but I [at the least] am struggling to visualise it happening. That was why I kept name dropping Stelek. Not because "if Stelek does it, it is Gospel" but, in addition to him having cred amongst us, he also has a how to.

Anyway.

Here are some of his Ard Boyz adventures:
Round 3 http://yesthetruthhurts.com/2010/06/battle-report...

I will post more, later. YTTH search isn't being cooperative :P
Marshal Wilhelm's avatar

Marshal Wilhelm · 726 weeks ago

*face palm* that was Timmah, not Stelek.
Check Steleks battle reports, maybe hart to find or even lost but they are very well worth it. Then i think you will realize what that "not a robust thinker" does not fit.

I don't get who having two of unit that is good can be considered bad list building. You roll dice to get stuff done when those fail you, you better have another unit that does the same so you don't get f*** over by the law of averages. Most codices sadly require you to "spam" certain units as you can't get the same game value out of other units in another FOC. Tyranids for example outside of HIveguard/Elites you don't get the same type of anti-tank anywhere. Guard can take Vendettas, various types of artillery tanks or even reliable deep striking melta to kick armour around. This gets wore the older the codex is.
Sir_Prometheus's avatar

Sir_Prometheus · 726 weeks ago

Ah, I wasn't done with you. Thread seemed to get filled up though? Was not allowed to reply any more. Is that just me, or everybody? Ah, well.
I still have the field and all but have not tried.
Sir_Prometheus's avatar

Sir_Prometheus · 726 weeks ago

Something weird happened to comment functions there. I did not have a comment box for a while, and now I do not see "quote" or "report" buttons.

I thought I had perhaps been banned for daring to disagree, but I was just able to make a post. I am encouraged that was not the case. I still do not see "reply" or "quote" buttons.

I do feel you and the TehCheator are repeating the same thing despite being presented with direct evidence to the contrary. I DO find it tiring.

I am also highly disappointed that Stellek has not taken the time to respond with anything intelligible.

I will respond to you eventually, but it may not be soon.
I don't ban or delete comments unless your name is Hymril ^^.

Making an intensedebate account generally gets rid of any posting problems you may have.
Not you, Stellek. You're often wrong, (like when you disagree with me) but not an ass. Stellek has proven himself kinda an ass.

And I did make an account. Didn't realize you could until you mentioned it. :D
You: You guys are totally wrong
Me: No, xyz isn't true
You: What are you talking about?
Me: Exactly what you posted about.
You: Don't bring that up, why would you bring that up?
Me: Because you said it
You: Stop name calling me by disagreeing with me
Me: *sigh* How about you show us your stuff, like Stelek does
You: Sky Rays are good
Me: No
Bob: Huh?
You: I was just baiting 'me'
Bob: So you were trolling
You: Yeah, because he was acting like an idiot <- because I reposted your posts after you pretended you didn't know what I was talking about because it didn't suit you to defend what you'd written
Me: Why don't you prove it like Stelek has
You: Who?
Me: Like this 'shows batrep'
You: pssh, why should I

*facepalm* BECAUSE YOU ARE THE DUDE UPSETTING THE APPLE CART AND TELLING US WE ARE ALL WRONG YET GIVE NOTHING TO PROVE YOUR POV!!
Then you post something silly about Skyrays being good, and I say not true. Then you say "I was just baiting him". Someone calls you on that, and you say "he was being an idiot". No, I wasn't. I reposted only what you said, and countered what you said.

You made out like I was name calling, and you agree with me suggesting you think I am 'boorish'

The only insults are coming from you.

I just keep asking you for proof, yet you say 'what for' - because you said Kirby was wrong, that's why!

Are you going to smokescreen and say "stop bringing it up, you are acting like an idiot for actually wanting me to be accountable for my words, I DO find it tiring" or are you actually going to provide some substance to your words?
Or are more snide comments from you in order?

I don't understand how on earth you can think you are being hard done by here. Seriously.
I have to agree with Marshal_Wihelm, the "discussion" on ytth on gunline GK vs Dual Raiders with Sir_Prometheus is kind of going in circles and was short before saying "F' it he must be a troll bating me". But hey i have nothing to do at work why not spend like this.
Kirby, Optimization is spelled with a 'z', not a 's'. You need to correct the title of the article. Otherwise, good stuff!
4 replies · active 726 weeks ago
Thats how we spell it on our side of the pond.
And we are speaking English, after all.

Let's not make up spellings for things that already have a perfectly good spelling, eh?

/troll
Hehee
I had to look it up:

A made up word meaning pen from a book called Frindle written for children.
"Since i read the book, now i'm only going to say frindle. I'll never say pen again

Lolzors, good call :)
I've been saying it for ages on Dakka - spam is arrogance - it's assuming that you've discovered the BEST unit/answer to everything and taking lots of it. It also means that you have less units to learn how to use, but similarly you will be less flexible than someone who has an actual balanced list.
1 reply · active 726 weeks ago
I think you are reading too much into the motives of the spammer - they don't have to be arrogant to spam, merely hopeful ;)
I knew Pyrovores weren't as bad as people say, finally I can buy a bunch and go to a tournament!
2 replies · active 726 weeks ago
That's not the point. Pyrovores are still shit, there is no debate about that.
If I ever get a chance to get an honest answer to one question from GW, it will be "what the #### were you thinking with the Pyrovore?"

Post a new comment

Comments by

Follow us on Facebook!

Related Posts Plugin for WordPress, Blogger...