
This is sort of a loaded post as the combat aspect of the Grey Knight army book has been discussed to death. It's been pounded into people that Grey Knights are not an actual combat army but rather a shooting focused army. However, Grey Knights do have combat ability thanks to their Nemesis Weapons combined with their Marine statlines. Whilst this combination doesn't make them a good combat army due to their points cost (excepting Death Cult Assassins) and bog standard MEQ statline (so you pay more but die the same! rocking), how to use combat and the Nemesis weapons available to Grey Knights is obviously needed to get maximum efficiency out of your Grey Knights army.
All Grey Knight based models come standard with a Nemesis Force Sword which gives every squad the ability to ignore armor saves in combat and have the potential to instant death any target without Eternal Warrior. Add in every squad having Hammerhand which takes the Grey Knights to strength 5 and the Grey Knights have some obvious combat ability. What is important to remember with this ability however is it is secondary to the shooting aspect of most Grey Knight armies. What this ability really needs to be utilised as is back-up to the Grey Knight shooting and used to finish off squads or as a counter-attack method.
This is an important part of how Grey Knights operate on the battlefield. Having a lot of psycannnons and stormbolters allows for a very effective shooting force at 24". Since they are assault based weapons the Grey Knight force is able to move and shoot and delay combat for as long as possible but there is a limit on how long you can keep the bulk of your force away from multiple assault units. By having Nemesis weapons and the solid Marine statline assault units breaking into the Grey Knight army aren't a death sentence (unlike say Tau). Whilst their combat isn't really point efficient (they still die like Marines damnit!) it does have some punch. This allows the Grey Knight army to effectively counter attack an opponent, finish off smaller squads in combat and preserve their army structure for as long as possible.
This also allows them to be more aggressive against certain armies. Although Grey Knights don't like being in combat against units which are designed to be in combat, they are obviously better than your other shooting armies or basic units such as Tactical Marines, Fire Warriors, Guardsmen, etc. Against forces which are shooting based this gives the Grey Knight player more options in being able to deal with units in combat and play more aggressively against lists which have more firepower. It is important to remember in these situations Grey Knights still die like Marines in combat (has this been repeated enough yet) but due to their Nemesis weapons and MEQ statline, Grey Knights will out-combat some armies or unit combinations.
Ultimately Grey Knights are a shooting force but they do have some ability in combat. They have a good basic statline but pay more for their equipment such as Nemesis Force Weapons, storm bolters and the psychic power Hammerhand. This increase in points makes them much better at shooting whilst remaining mobile compared to their Marine counterparts and whilst there is an increase in combat potential, they are much more effective as a mobile shooting force. This combat potential however adds an extra dimension to the Grey Knight army in being able to launch effective counter-assaults and better other shooting or generalist units in combat. This highlights the secondary role of combat in a Grey Knights army compared to shooting but to gain maximum potential from the army, the Grey Knight combat ability must be remembered and used accordingly.
Mathieu · 727 weeks ago
As you point it out, GK combat has been discuss aplenty, bu this post nicely sums it up. I'm sure its real value will appear in the future once the GK fad has been replaced by a newer codex (prays for necrons...).
Clayman · 727 weeks ago
Wyrmnax · 727 weeks ago
The bad part of GKs - and what most people on their hype dont realize - is that they are *expensive*
The improvement GKs have in melee compared to marines is marginal - most things that kill marines in CC will also kill GKs in CC. The improvement GKs have over marines in shooting is very big - most things that kill marines in a short ranged firefight will not be able to best GKs in short ranged shooting.
Bro_Lo 82p · 727 weeks ago
Thoughts?
Clayman · 727 weeks ago
Bro_Lo 82p · 727 weeks ago
MathMan · 727 weeks ago
IMO the bigger the unit, and the more attacks it has, then the more beneficial high I becomes, and the less beneficial varied weapons become because the unit becomes harder to torrent. A 10-man Terminator units with halberds and a banner will throw a LOT of high-I power weapon attacks; enough to significantly cut down incoming wounds and completely deter smaller melee squads that run the risk of getting entirely cut down before they get to swing.
Bro_Lo 82p · 727 weeks ago
This is the most important part. Wound allocation is not a massive issue with 1W models, but it does help. In a unit of 1W models I wouldn't cut efficieny/effectiveness to make a completely unique unit. With Paladins however, I would be happy to go that extra length to do this. Especially in small units.
This is also important when considering tactica against such units...
If you have a unit of 5 IG Vets with 3 meltaguns and 2 lasguns at a unit of 2-4 unique paladins, do you shoot the lasguns? I wouldn't. For each wound over the number in the unit means your opponent can double up those insta-kill wounds.
Larger units do benefit from the I6 I agree and the fact that they remain I6 even when assaulted is exceptional (unlike furious charge for example). I would however state that this is most potent for Purifiers/GKTs/Palas. Models with 1 base attack are unlikely to do much even at ini6 and the cost of halberds for Strike Squads and Interceptor Squads is absurd. These considerations are made when equipping BT assault terminators.... each pair of lightning claws I take over TH/SS means I can attempt to prevent more attacks coming my way. The opportunity cost however is the loss of a 3++ and the fact that furious charge is not activated when assaulted.
Prometheus 101p · 727 weeks ago
To steal some math and a quote from another post:
2/2/1 Sword/Halber/Hammer. https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0AnFuN-yY....
Check out the bottom of "random notes" tab.
If 5 identical Terminators take 30 woundsP(Survival of at least one) =0.38355298530994
If 5 distinct Terminators take 30 woundsP(Any one survives) = 0.33489797668038
Average survivors = 1.67448988340192
What that's saying, is if you take 30 wounds (whoo, that's a lot, but of course this what they think of, 1/6*30=5 dead terminators) on 5 identical terminators, there is a 38.3% chance that at least 1 terminator survives statistically (because, of course, never do you fail exactly 1/6 of your saves)
But, if you have 5 unique equipped terminators, each has a 33.4% to survive it's 5 assigned wounds. That means you will have 1.67 terminators alive, on avg.
1.67 alive instead of 0.383 alive on average, due to things like 2 failed saves being assigned to the 1 halberd, non-sergeant termie and the like, instead of killing 2 like-equipped termies. That is a 436% increase in survivability, even with single wound termies.
MathMan · 727 weeks ago
The real "general" survivability increase is likely to be significantly less, because you're likely to take wounds cumulatively over several volley and you must allocate the wounds from each set individually, and you're not likely to take 30 wounds from a single unit, especially from shooting. In fact if you never take more than 5 wounds from any set of attacks, it's actually not going to do much of anything for you. Anything over 5, though, and it's going to help you.
It's still worth doing, it's just not going to give you 4x the survivability in general. :)
Prometheus 101p · 727 weeks ago
Yes, anytime there is only 1 wound per model or less, there is no benefit.
Anytime the wounds get to 2 or more per model, I think the benefit pretty rapidly approaches that which was described. This is a pretty common situation, I feel.
Ask someone who is willing to spend more brain space on it. Bottom line: The benefit is larger than you would intuitively think.
Marshal_Wilhelm 71p · 727 weeks ago
Nice.
Prometheus 101p · 727 weeks ago
Actually wound allocation is important, but the more important reason is that a 10 man squad simply won't usually kill all of an opposing 10 man squad, whatever it is, and thus you get some power weapon/fist attacks back. If you get some back, you want swords, or even a staff, to fend that off.
I think 2 are good fro small squads, 4 for 10-mans, because these are ablative, you will still lose some, and you want the squad to be good for more than one combat.
I've also started strongly consider falchions for big squads, but's only if they're +2 attacks post-FAQ (+2 is current RAW, I feel).
MathMan · 727 weeks ago
It all depends. The halberds are better versus Vanguard vets and other power weapon toting elites; the swords will help more against giant Ork units that come at you with a power klaw hidden in a 20+ man mob.
Prometheus 101p · 727 weeks ago
Bottom line, a sorta typical unit is 10 men, the last wound of which has 2-3 power weapons of various effectiveness. If whatever X of GKT you have can wipe that out then great, get all Halberds, I just don't think that is the typical situation.
I've justified that assumption on Mathammer, but really it comes from personal experience. First turn wipe-outs before CR are rare, thus all Halberds doesn't make sense.
Jcd386 · 727 weeks ago
MathMan · 727 weeks ago
Prometheus 101p · 727 weeks ago
1) No power weapons.
2) that they are either initiative 4 or 5. If they're initiative 6, then it matters 1/6th as much (the number of return attacks you would presumably lose).
I think you'll find that that is actually an exceedingly narrow set of conditions. Almost all units that are 4 or 5 Initiative would have power weapons.
MathMan · 727 weeks ago
Halberds are more likely to be useful against non-PW armed units, and I think they're more common than you think, even at I 4-5. Mind you, Terminators are typically going to slaughter said things in assault regardless of weaponry so the point might be a little academic.
Kirby 118p · 727 weeks ago
Marshal_Wilhelm 71p · 727 weeks ago
And what happened to this dislike function?
abusepuppy 121p · 727 weeks ago
Bro_Lo 82p · 727 weeks ago
*mutters to self in corner*
Marshal_Wilhelm 71p · 727 weeks ago
Antebellum · 726 weeks ago
Sethis · 727 weeks ago
A totally Vanilla Tactical squad fighting 20 Guardsmen, for example. Tacs strike first, and lets assume they have the charge. So 10 pistol shots which kills about 2 Guardsmen. 18 left. 20 CC attacks kill about 5 Guard, leaving 13 men to strike back.
Compare vanilla GKs who do the same. 20 SB shots kills about 5 Guard, followed by 20 CC attacks that kill about 12 Guardsmen with Hammerhand. Even without Hammerhand they kill 8, leaving 7 to strike back. The difference isn't how much they win combat by, but how many fewer attacks they take in return, and therefore less casualties. A full Halberd squad exemplifies this even more, because they also get to strike before a lot of dedicated CC units such as FC Marines like Zerkers/BA/Eldar, instead of just before Guard/Tau etc. A pure Halberd squad will almost wipe out a Scorpion squad before they can strike, whereas normal marines have to eat 30 attacks before doing so.
They even get an advantage when striking after their opponents, because the additional casualties caused by ignoring armour (a third more kills vs 5+, half again more kills vs 4+, and triple the kills vs 3+ etc) will affect the future rounds of combat.
Less attackers striking = less wounds taken = living longer. You are correct in that any given opponent will need the same dice rolls to kill a GK as a Marine when he strikes, and in that respect they are equally fragile, but you have to take into account that there will be less models to attack the GKs than there would be to attack the Marines in the first place.
Bro_Lo 82p · 727 weeks ago
Prometheus 101p · 727 weeks ago
Same thing with GKSS vs say.....Grey Hunters. The SW are much cheaper, of course, but the GKSS still compare quite favorably pt for pt.
The real answer is that GK are neither shooting nor CC but are meant to do both against most opponents. Anytime they get to shoot,shoot, assault (or be assaulted) they will generally perform quite well against any other unit you care to match them with on a similar point cost.
The caveat, and the challenge, of course, is that it can sometimes be quite hard to utilize both your shooting and your CC against certain opponents. But if you can, it's pretty much win.
Kirby 118p · 727 weeks ago
sinsynn 106p · 727 weeks ago
Rock on!
IronAvenger · 726 weeks ago