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Friday, May 20, 2011
Blood Angels Codex Review: Part 1: Special Characters
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Desc440 has kindly started a Blood Angels codex review for us all to enjoy. Everything written in the following series of posts is by him and published with his permission. I've added a few counter-points and some editing but all the core ideas are his! Enjoy.
Dante : Good
The head honcho of the Blood Angels. Seems fitting to start with him.
Clocking in at 225 pts, Dante isn’t cheap, but he’s a good character regardless. First and foremost, he makes Sanguinary Guard Troops. This lets you manage your Elite slots more easily, while making your Shiny Boyz scoring as well. I guess you can also use Dante to create the NippleWing (all Sang Guard army), but I’m not a big fan of that personally.
As for Dante himself, he is a decent combat character with three important rules. The first is that thanks to his improved Death Mask, he can nerf an enemy IC before the game, making it lose 1 Wound, 1 WeaponSkill, 1 Initiative and 1 Attack. Having enemy Librarians die to their first Perils test is rather humorous but I prefer to apply the curse to big, scary combat characters to make them more manageable. The mask of Sanguinius also functions as a normal Death Mask, which we will cover in the Sanguinary Guard entry.
Second of the three important rules is Tactical Precision, which allows Dante and his unit to avoid scattering completely on the Deep Strike. Not only does this have direct benefits (usually one very dead tank when Dante arrives) but additionally, this can influence your opponent’s choices during deployment, sometimes leading him to make an overall bad decision just to minimize the damage of one unit. Just be careful not to fall into a trap laid by your opponent; just because that juicy Chaos Land Raider is a tempting target doesn’t mean it’s a good idea to DS next to it if Oblits get a clear line of sight to Dante and his boys in the process. a great and often overlooked bonus of this ability is reliable deep-striking a Sanguinary Priest into the battle. That little D6" scatter can often make ensuring deep-striking units are within FNP/FC range annoying at best and Dante's no-scatter rule can really help land a Priest where it is needed.
Finally, Dante and his squad also get Surgical Strike, which gives them Hit and Run. This is pretty huge for an army that works on Furious Charge. It also helps to avoid getting tarpitted by hordes/dreads, especially when Dante is accompanying a unit of Sang Guard who doesn't afraid of anything.
Dante works well with shooty Honour Guard by helping them avoid getting stuck in combat where they cannot shoot. That being said, I find the best unit to put Dante in remains Sang Guard, as they get the most out of his abilities. He can also alleviate the small squad size issue and the fact that they lack an invulnerable save (useful to suck up the odd plasma shot thanks to 4 wounds + Iron Halo). He lacks Eternal Warrior though which is a bit annoying against Power Fists and the like so be careful!
Seth: Bad
Much like the Flesh Tearers are fairing worse than their parent Chapter, so too does their Chapter Master compared to Dante.
So what is it that makes Seth bad? Well, he just doesn't do much for the army as a whole. He has no army-wide special rules, he doesn't unlock an alternative FOC and beyond his Fearlessness, doesn't even boost the squad he's with... and it's questionable wether Fearless is a boost in the first place, really.
On top of that, he's not even really that good a combat character. His bigass chainsword is entertaining, but beyond being a Dreadnought deterrent and possibly instant-killing Klaw Nobs, doesn't really do much a power fist wouldn't do as well or better. His sucker punch rule, while certainly fun, doesn't have much of an impact in the grand scheme of things. Yay! I killed an extra Ork or two! Truely this is a game-changer!
He's hard to fit into most Blood Angel armies as well without that Jump Pack which leads to him being left home more often than not. Therefore, unless you're making a fluffy FT list, it's probably best to pass on Rippy McRipper.
Astorath: Average
Astroboy seems deceptively good at a first glance: he's handy in combat, he boosts his squad, he increases the likelihood of squads getting Red Thirst and he even unlocks the DC army. However, under close scrutiny, Astorath loses some of his glitter. While I'm not going to knock on his combat abilities and squad boost rules, as they are good, I think its important to take a minute and ponder on his other selling points.
Firstly, I must state what is probably obvious to many: Red Thirst isn't very good. Getting Furious Charge and Fearless one in six times does not compensate for losing the awesomeness of Combat Tactics. Additionally, you're bound to be getting FC regardless due to Sanguinary Priests (which also give you Feel no Pain) and Fearless is often worse than ATSKNF anyways.
Ergo, Astorath's Shadow of the Primarch rule is not that great in most cases. Now consider that Astorath unlocks multiple squads of DC (which already have FC and Fearless by default) and it becomes clear that there's inefficiency hiding in there somewhere.
Speaking of DC armies: please don't do this. At least, not as your main army. Having no scoring Troops and being unable to control anything in the movement phase is pretty fail.
When you take into account the aforementioned points, Astorath just doesn't make the grade to be considered a great character. However, he still has enough going for him that saying he is outright bad would be fallacious. Just be aware of his shortcomings and go from there. Sometimes he will indeed be worth it (off the top of my head: an army with a lot of infantry-based ranged firepower would benefit substantially from Fearlessness while having a decent combat char for counter charges).
The Sanguinor: Bad
I tried. I tried really hard to make him work. I tried because I like the concept of a bad ass avenging angel of death swooping down from the skies and wrecking bloody havoc on the enemy. Sadly, it was not meant to be.
Before I tackle what makes Sangui bad, let's cover his strong points. Firstly, he's obviously handy in a fight. This is considerably more telling when pitted against his chosen target. Secondly, he does give a nice boost to your assault elements in the form of +1 attack to all units within 6 inches. Thirdly, he gives a nice little boost to one Sergeant within your army. Not exactly a game changer, but still nice to have.
Now for the bad part: despite his 2+/3++ and Eternal Warrior, Sangui isn't very survivable. Because he is not an IC, he can't hide in squads. He only has T4 with 3 wounds. How hard is it to kill 3 Hammernators again? Tough, but not THAT tough and in 5th edition it's not that hard to put a bunch of wounds on a guy. For a 275 pts character, this is a hard pill to swallow.
His aura is only 6 inches. This is problematic because to get the most out of your expensive beatstick, you will have to bunch up somewhat and be aggressive. Playing passively with a 275 point paperweight puts you at a disadvantage obviously. A 12 inch radius would have been more sensible considering his cost.
Finally, the blessing is determined at random. Boosted Hammernator sergeant – awesome. Boosted Devastator sergeant – not so awesome. I've seen people game this by taking Dante AND Sanguinor, using only Sang Guard as Troops (because they don't have a Sergeant) and taking a lone Vanguard Vet squad with hammer/shield sarge so that he automatically gets the blessing. My comment on that is: are you guys for real?
As much as it saddens me, I can't say Sangui is good. I would have liked to though, trust me.
Mephiston: Excellent
Ah! Finally, the big bad wolf himself, Mephiston!
This guy just oozes win. Let's take a look.
First, he is a beast in combat: assuming he gets all his powers off, you're looking at six S10 WS7 I7 attacks on the charge that re roll to hit. In addition to that, the Transfixing Gaze rule makes him quite adept at bitchslapping enemy Independent Characters. And Mephiston has a huge threat radius thanks to Wings of Sanguinius + Fleet, so he gets to apply all that combat ability fairly easily.
Second, he is highly survivable. Like Sanguinor, he is not an IC. Unlike Sanguinor, this is ok due to having T6 and 5 wounds. While he can't join squads, he can still use them to gain cover saves against shooting. And he is easy to hide since he is a small model. When in combat, he has little to fear aside from power fists, which is a problem easily fixed with multicharges. He does however lack an invulnerable save which is a major weakness. If he gets caught in the open or a squad of power-weapon/rending/etc wielding nasties which survive him, watch out.
Thirdly, and because Jesus loves you, Mephiston also brings utility to the army in the form of his psychic hood. If he also had Shield of Sanguinius, he would pretty much be an auto-include in most army lists (and I guess this is the reason he doesn't have it).
There's two minor gripes I feel I should mention: one is that because he is not an IC, he can't ride with squads in vehicles. This is not too bad in most cases thanks to his easily-hidden model, but when anti-psy is cancelling Wings every other turn, poor Mephy often finds himself wishing he wasn't so anti-social.
My other gripe is that since he doesn't have the ability to work with DoA due to his lack of a real jump pack. However, you can't have everything, and Mephiston remains a very, very good HQ choice for a vast percentage of competitive BA lists.
Captain Tycho: Bad
By far one of the most interesting characters in the Blood Angel lore, Tycho unfortunately suffers from his lack of focus.
Afflicted with jack-of-all-tradeness, Tycho is both decent at shooting and at combat. While this is not always a bad thing, when putting a 175 pts price tag on it, it is.
Rites of Battle, while in no way a bad rule, simply doesn't have such a big impact on 5th ed Blood Angels due to mandatory sergeant in every squad. If you use Combat Squads a lot, RoB becomes much more valuable, but on the whole, it simply fails to leave much of an impression.
All in all, Tycho has the makings of a decent character, but his price tag drags him down considerably.
Oh, right... you can also choose to use DC Tycho. Why you would do this, I have no idea.
Conclusion
It's pretty obvious but Dante and Mephiston are really the best options available to a Blood Angels army. Mephiston is pretty easy to fit into any army and is one of the few characters which adds little to the army outside of being a beast in combat. He's just that good in combat he's worth the cost. Dante on the other hand is like many of the new 5th edition special characters and adds to the army as a whole. He's still pretty handy in combat himself but you are generally looking to take him for Sanguinary Guard as Troops with his other abilities as a bonus.
The other characters just don't benefit the army for their points or aren't so flash in combat. These guys are often hard to fit into the army effectively and aren't always going to improve the army.
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Blood Angels Codex Review: Part 1: Special Characters
2011-05-20T22:00:00+10:00
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Analysis|Blood Angels|Review|Tactics|
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Desc440 · 724 weeks ago
Hellgore · 724 weeks ago
I met him three times now in tournaments:
- with Ultramarines I managed to tarpit him with my Ironclads. My P-Hood-Libby prevented him from getting off his powers almost all of the time. And if I wouldn't have rolled too many 1's on the few woundingrolls I got, he wouldn't have survived already my first 'clad.
- twice now he ran into my Grey Knights and they finished him off just like nothing. Either the psychout missiles of the ravens ripped of some wounds off of him before shot to death by psycannons or my terminators wiped the floor with him singlehandedly. Didn't even need to get Hammerhand off, it was just enough attacks getting through and with no inv and at Ini 1 he just fell in one combat round without killing a termie.
His biggest problem is although his non-IC-status. If he were an IC I would tag him with excellent, too, despite the missing Inv.Save.
So you don't see me impressed with his abillities. But if you recommend him I'll probably face him more so I can add more "killed mephy"-markers to my collection ;)
Desc440 · 724 weeks ago
The Lieutenant · 724 weeks ago
Zjoekov 74p · 724 weeks ago
Karvala · 724 weeks ago
Rating the Sanguinor as 'bad' (especially when Astorath gets an 'average') is also a dubious call. Yes, you can focus fire him down, but he is likely to be able to play his part, especially if LOS-blocking is available, either from terrain or from vehicles. The +1 attack to all units within 6" actually gives a pretty good spread of bonus, with only 1 model in a unit needing to be in range to get the buff for everyone.
Tycho also has his uses (well, not if he is DC Tycho). As you say, he is actually a very decent all-rounder in himself, and the Ld boosting can be very valuable in Mech/MSU armies, especially with combat squadding. Combi-melta with special ammunition, the ability to reliable punch holes in most vehicles in close combat, artificer armor.... Just as Dante is a better choice than a Captain for a jump army, Tycho is a better choice than a Captain for a MechMSU army (not to the same degree, true, and I'd generally take a Libby over a Captain). He is not a good choice in many armies, but has his place in some. Rating him worse than Astorath, who costs 45 points more and fits into an even smaller niche of usefulness, seems another dubious call.
Carnage43 · 724 weeks ago
BA Captains are the worst possible HQ choice for BAs....literally everything is better then a captain. If that's your criteria for being "good" then i don't know what to say.
Karvala · 724 weeks ago
"I'd generally take a Libby over a Captain"
Desc440 · 724 weeks ago
-Mephiston: While he may be high on the target priority list, you have to be able to shoot him before you can kill him. He's easy to hid behind a rhino, so drawing line of sight to him can be problematic. While it's true that AP1/2 weapons hurt him bad, this can be mitigated by making sure he's hiding within a squad. And avoiding ID is a pretty big deal. I think Zjoekov puts it best: Mephi needs a competent player to for him to perform well. In the hands of an experienced player, he is devastating (or at least dangerous, even when being psy-blocked).
Desc440 · 724 weeks ago
-Tycho: As I mentionned in the entry, the real problem with Tycho is not his abilities, its the cost GW decided to associate with them. I personnaly quite like all-rounders, but not when the associated cost is so high. And yes, I think Asto is a better char. While not super awesome, you can get enough mileage out of him to get your money's worth to a reasonable extent. Doing so with Tycho is more problematic.
Karvala · 724 weeks ago
5 wounds with a 4+ cover save averages 10 lascannon/melta wounds to kill Meph.
3 wounds with a 3+ invuln save averages 9 lascannon/melta wounds to kill Sanguinor.
The Sanguinor is more vulnerable to bolter-type fire because of the lower toughness, but T4, 2+, FNP still makes it unlikely (1 in 36 chance of a BS4 bolter shot wounding him). And if Meph ever loses cover, he is toast.
Desc440 · 724 weeks ago
As for Sang vs Mephi's survivability, the numbers you present speak for themselves. Yes, Meph gets surprise-sexed out in the open, but as was mentioned often, this is a case needing someone competent to play him.
Also, calculate the amount of bolter shots it takes to down Meph. With FnP, it is astronomical.
Also also, with only 3 wounds, Sanguinor is far more vulnerable to unlucky dice than Meph is. 3 consecutive bad rolls and it's bye bye! Bad luck can affect Mephiston as well, but those 2 extra wounds are telling.
Karvala · 724 weeks ago
I'm taking exception to the Sanguinor being classed as being too easy to kill, but Mephiston as 'highly survivable'. A comparison of the two does not have them being all that far apart in survivability. They have different strengths and weaknesses as far as survivability goes, but against a sensible opponent, there isn't that much difference. Mephiston IS more survivable, but not by all that great a margin.
Mephiston has 5 wounds and T6, making him very strong against anti-infantry weapons and normal cc attacks, but lacks invuln saves, making him dependent on cover saves and vulnerable to powerfists. He is also not Eternal Warrior so is vulnerable to certain types of ID effects.
The Sanguinor has only 3 wounds, and T4, but has Eternal Warrior and a 3+ invuln. That makes him almost as resilient versus AP1 and 2 shooting, but without requiring cover, and equal or better protection against power weapons/powerfists in cc.
The Sanguinor is more vulnerable to taking wounds from normal cc/anti-infantry shooting, but the difference between him and Meph in this regard is the difference between pretty improbable (1 in 36 for bolter shots, 1 in 48 for S4 cc attacks) and highly unlikely (1 in 108 for bolter shots, 1 in 144 for normal cc attacks). What usually is killing these two guys off isn't the normal cc/ anti-infantry shooting, it is the AP1 and 2 shooting, and power weapon (1 in 12 chance to inflict an unsaved wound on either) and power fist (5 in 36 on Sanguinor, 15 in 36 on Meph). 5 wounds is better than 3, but not having an invuln save makes a big difference too.
Desc440 · 724 weeks ago
On top of that, taking out Sanguinor not only removes a dangerous CC character but also removes a whole bunch of extra attacks that his aura provides. Ergo, killing him will be a very big priority for your opponent. Killing Meph is also a priority, but due to the smaller range of weapons that are effective against him, it's not unreasonable to venture that an opponent might prioritise his targets differently than if he had the same toughness as Sangui.
Karvala · 724 weeks ago
Anti-infantry weapons are pretty ineffective against the Sanguinor. You are looking at something like 18 marines within 12" of him rapid firing to confidently expect to take ONE wound off him. He can be hurt by these weapons, but it takes a LOT of them. If your opponent is shooting them into the Sanguinor, he isn't using them to kill something else, which he almost certainly will be doing instead of shooting Meph with them.
Yes, if you roll badly he can die in improbable ways - I killed a Sanguinor in a tournament last month by shooting him with a Swiftclaw bike squad. I've also had a brood of Termagants kill Mephiston in cc.
Example: 10 man squad of Grey hunters with 2 meltaguns shoots at each of them. We'll assume Meph is in 4+ cover to make it as favorable for him as possible, and that both have FNP.
18 bolter shots vs Sang. = 12 hits, 6 wounds, 1 failed save, 0.5 failed FNP
2 melta shots vs Sang = 1.33 hits, 1.11 wounds, 0.37 failed saves
Total = 0.37 + 0.5 = 0.87 wounds
18 bolter shots vs Meph = 12 hits, 2 wounds, 0.33 failed saves, 0.17 failed FNP
2 melta shots vs Meph = 1.33 hits. 1.11 wounds, 0.65 failed saves
Total = 0.82 wounds
Roughly the same amount of damage, but Mephiston's higher wounds score helps him a lot.
But what happens if you lose the cover save?
18 bolter shots vs Meph = 12 hits, 2 wounds, 0.33 failed saves, 0.17 failed FNP
2 melta shots vs Meph = 1.33 hits. 1.11 wounds
Total = 1.28 wounds
Making the assumption that you'll have the cover save, so therefore Mephiston is far more survivable is a risky proposition. You can often engineer the cover save, but if you opponent can get clear shots, his survivability gets flushed down the toilet.
Desc440 · 724 weeks ago
timff8 · 723 weeks ago
Desc440 · 723 weeks ago
Clayman · 724 weeks ago
TMiles001 41p · 722 weeks ago
18 bolter shots (@ BS4) vs ASM = 12 hits, 6 wounds, 2 failed saves, 1 failed FNP.
timff8 · 723 weeks ago
A Reclusiarch with a jump pack and power fist = 170 pts.
Upgrading that power fist to a relic blade is say 5 points = 175 points
Artificer armor is 20 points = 195 points
So for 25 points you're getting +1 Weapon Skill, opponents re-rolling Invulnerables, Shadow of the Primarch, and Death Company in multiple squads. That's actually a fair price; that's not the problem.
The issue is that you don't need both SotP and multiple DC squads; they're mutually exclusive. If you have lots of DC marines, you already have Fealress and FC, and vice-versa. If you dropped either SotP or multiple DC squads, and dropped him to 210 points, he would be good.
wolfbane · 724 weeks ago
Psycho Tycho though...he can't even travel with Death Company so I'd leave him at home and use a regular chaplain for them instead, saving your HQ space for a Libby.
Desc440 · 724 weeks ago
If you're going to use him at all, Sternies are probably one of the better units for him to join, yes.
Shas'El Mike · 724 weeks ago
Desc440 · 724 weeks ago
Morollan · 724 weeks ago
Desc440 · 724 weeks ago
As for Asto's combat abilities, I have nothing bad to say about them.
Remember: I didn't say he was a bad character, just average.
VinsKlortho · 724 weeks ago
Desc440 · 724 weeks ago
Mycroft · 724 weeks ago
I get the Red Thirst Roll on my AttackBike, Dev Squad and Rifledread nearly every game. In the game where my opponent had Astorath... I got absolutely nothing...
Morollan · 724 weeks ago
Desc440 · 724 weeks ago
Built-in redundancy is nice, but you gotta remember that you still have 50% chance your assault elements won't be getting Red Thirst, so SotP remains somewhat moot, at least in my eyes.
Lyracian 59p · 724 weeks ago
While Fearless can have a downside it is more reliable. You know your squad is not going to turn and run away (possibly off the table). Even if they did reform with ATSKNF you have lost a turn of shooting heavy weapons.
ScottW · 723 weeks ago
Karvala · 723 weeks ago
Rob40K · 723 weeks ago
Daybreak · 724 weeks ago
Desc440 · 724 weeks ago
Also, being able to Death or Glory reliably seems hardly like much compensation for No Retreat. Maybe that's just me.
timff8 · 723 weeks ago
Desc440 68p · 723 weeks ago
Antebellum · 724 weeks ago
It's when you fight things such as a Nob Squad ... then you're screwed.
JTT · 724 weeks ago
Desc440 · 724 weeks ago
The wording leaves to be desired, yes, but knocking the rest of the review over that is pretty nearsighted.
JTT · 724 weeks ago
I did read the whole article anyway, but I think Sanguinor isn't "bad". Perhaps average. You just simply cannot play him like Mephiston.
Desc440 · 724 weeks ago
I know that you can't play Sangui like Mephi. My big problem with him is that he really isn't all THAT hard to kill. This would be acceptable were it not for his exorbitant cost.
Mattias · 724 weeks ago
Desc440 · 724 weeks ago
Mattias · 724 weeks ago
Desc440 · 724 weeks ago
S8 at init is nice, but like I mentioned in the review, this is only really scary for dreadnoughts. Normal vehicles are just as scared of a standard power fist.
Mattias · 724 weeks ago
I'm not saying he's good, but bad is a tad overkill. I'd take him all the time if it wasn't for the librarian.
Desc440 · 724 weeks ago
Karvala · 724 weeks ago
The ability to autohit models in base contact with S8 hits at I5 works wonders against quite a few non-marine armies.
Fast moving vehicles do not like him
Anything with horde-type units do not like him - large number of automatic S8 hits possible, plus the return S4 hits on 1's.
ID hits vs T4 is always nice, especially at I5
He's still more of a 'flavor' type of character than a competitive one.
Rubbish Blog · 724 weeks ago
@Segmentumsolar · 724 weeks ago
people think that seth is bad because he does not ignore armout
Desc440 · 724 weeks ago
devilinmypocket 36p · 723 weeks ago
First off, the blessing. It's either going to go to one assault marine Sgt.'s, or it's going to my Vanguard Sgt. Turning any one of those guys into a mini-captain is fantastic for my overall battle-plan. Any one of those teams suddenly having a promoted Sgt. does wonders for their overall killiness; You do not have to kit out Sgt's just in case for his blessing. I've used it tons of times on a stock Sgt with a Power Fist and the guy is evil. I've also tossed Storm Shields around onto each Sgt and it was nice, but not necessary. If you are running multiple Devastator squads, and/or Tactical, then the value obviously diminishes as instead of 100% usefulness you now have 50%, but with a hybrid list like that you need to look and see if he even has a place in the list.
The range of his aura is perfectly fine. Playing DOA, and I'd say BA as a whole, is an aggressive experience. Using the Sanguinor and an Assault Unit together is brutal. A 12" range would be nice, but it's not a breaker. I pretty much always work with the helping-pack-mentality the Wolves use, so properly using Sang's aura is no harder than making sure my Priests are covering the lines.
Sanguinor's not exactly a cupcake when it comes to killing him either. Ok, he is T4, but he's also Eternal Warrior, with a 2+/3++ (as you said), and he has a very high initiative, good strength, and works as a perfect character assassin as well. He can take out the Wolves token Thunderwolf Lord on the charge, or being charged, rather handedly if he's placed his mark on the wolf. If you are running Dante in the list as well (which isn't as crippling as 500 points would sound in a 1750+ list), then both their marks on one target means Sang will win well over 90% of the time on his own. I have broken plenty of Deathstars with Sang and another squad, and knocked out plenty of tooled enemy characters with him - he's a lot tougher than you'd think. Now, if the question is him catching fifteen Long Fang krak's, or a Plasma line, or what-have-you, then you either placed him incorrectly or something really wrong went down in your battle lines.
I suppose in the end it comes down to playstyle and local-meta. I've tried your DOA lists before and they just didn't work for me. It had a plus in it's favor versus mech, but fell down easily versus other armies that can punch you in the mouth. I have no doubt they work for you, so perhaps Sang is the same. He works with how I play, and is counter-intuitive to how you run.
Desc440 · 723 weeks ago
I've put forth my views on the points you have raised elsewhere in the comments, so no point in repeating them. I would however like to know how the Sang's blessing is such a fantastic boon to your overall battle plan. Perhaps I'm missing something, but it seems to me in the grand scheme of things, it's more a fun fluff rule rather than a game-changer.