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Friday, June 24, 2011

Chocolate salty stars.



Deathstar.

The name itself is enough to make people laugh these days. In the olden days, the term was used to refer to ultimate bricks (4th edition marine command squads, with three characters), killing machines that, realistically, just couldn't be stopped (nob bikerz), and other assorted stupidity. "Like?" Early 5th, three ironclad dreads.
Yeah, we've come a long way since.

The key thing behind 'deatstars' is points-denial. If you can't kill it, you won't get the points, yes? So if we're playing killpoints, and I have three 500 points units, versus your 1500 point army, that's magically given me an advantage, right? Maybe? Kinda?
No.

In a game like fantasy, where you can easily stack defensive buffs/stats, and few - if any - armies have the tools needed to assail your deathstar, sure. Then 8th hit, and we got purple sun - which is a type of neutron star. I see your Purple Sun and raise you a Banner of the World Dragon. I see your banner, and raise you laserguided, knightly trebuchets. I concede.

Deathstar's don't work.
Their lack of usefulness in 40k is such that even warseer understands this, yet a new class of super-unit was invented to take its place: the mini-star.
Variously known as 'mini-stars,' 'dwarf stars,' 'white dwarves,' and 'huge wastes of points,' these units focus on killiness and durability - rather than outright denial.

To volunteer for star duty, you must be elite infantry. Monster, bike, footslogging terminators - it doesn't matter. If you can't make use of wound allocation, you're automatically disqualified.
Here, two examples.

5 paladins: apothecary, 2 master-crafted psycannons, 2 master-crafted hammers, 3 master-crafted halberds - 425

Layout:
Apothecary, halberd.

Psycannon, hammer.
Psycannon, halberd.
Hammer.
Halberd
.


-



5 nob bikers: painboy, 3 powerklaws, big choppa, cybork bodies, boss pole, waagh banner - 380

Layout:
Pai
nboy.
Big choppa.
Powerklaw, waagh banner
.
Powerklaw, boss pole.
Powerklaw.


-

Paladins obviously have a shooting advantage. One large blast, two stormbolters, and two psycannons is a lot more dangerous and useful than 5 dakkagunz.

Durability?
Terminator armor is miles ahead of T5 with carapace equivalent, to a point that we'll get to after this waffling. Both units have feel no pain, must suffer ten wounds before killyness decreases, and have the same invulnerable save. Of course, there's the very real difference that battlecannons nuke the nobz, but barely scratch the terminators - however, battlecannons are terrible, so never taken since 4th edition ended. It's worth noting that T5 is as good defense against S3 firepower as 2+ armor save, by virtue of shifting the t0-wound roll far into the stratosphere.

The kicker then isn't the battlecannon (since it's never taken) - rather, that demolisher cannons destroy both, while the net durability against regular anti-elite infantry firepower (meltaguns, lascannons, lances) is pretty much the same. In fact, your terminators are so immune to small-arms, no one is ever gonna shoot them, other than as acts of defiance, and this virtual immunity will more often than not only come into play once you tie up some infantry.

In combat, the nobs are dramatically worse.
Yes, they have three powerfists, with strength 9 on the charge, and blah blah blah, but they're striking last, can't drive into terrain without risking damage, and 4+ is terrible for a combat unit - even if it has feel no pain. At least you're T5 to soak up some basic attacks.
Almost everything the paladins get the drop on gets speared 300-style, and survivors are flattened by S8/10 master-crafted hammers. Multi-wound targets? Okay, so initiative 6 force weapons. You more often than not die. Immune to that, too, somehow (avatar) Force hammer'd.
Against armored targets, the nobz ARE better. 12 fist attacks at S9 brings them as close as it gets to orkish reliability, and the 4 S7 aren't that bad, either, but when was the last time you got the drop on a stationary parking lot? It happens, but isn't something to rely on.

The nobz do have a not insignificant points-advantage, but this is more likely to reflect in the army having more guys, rather than the orks adding another nob. You know, because overkill tends to accomplish nothing.

Obviously, bike wheels move a lot faster than terminator'd feet, but with two master-crafted psycannons, and the ability to deep strike, the terminators aren't exactly in a hurry to pimpslap people. 18 threat range is something you can't overlook, however. It's nice to have the reach to grab most units.

However, all the above is just numbers.
Numbers are lots of fun, but they fall apart when you bring them to the table. Essentially, nobz and paladins are little hammers that cost ungodly amounts of points, yet produce huge numbers.
You really can't argue with the effects of a hammerblow, but what if it misses? What if it's a glasshammer? What if it's moving really, really fast, but even that speed's not fast enough? In either case, one must consider things outside the numbers.

Paladins, like all terminators, can be deepstruck in. Not only can you teleport them, but the book they're from lets you augment them with these handy spells, special abilities that can't be countered (grand strategy), load them in behemoth transports that aren't 50 foot long, with open topped armor 12 sides...
Because paladins are modern, they can be given heavy weapons, have magic powers of their own, their default implements can be given re-rolls, kill things instantly without necessarily striking last, and you can even split a full unit of them into two smaller ones. Natural weaponskill 5, initiative 6 weapons, and S10 attacks all help, too.

Nobz get re-rolls for morale tests. That's it.
They don't have built-in defense against psykers, or add heavy weapons fire to their army. The combination of low model count and bad leadership often renders nobz impotent before they even get to bring the pain, so bikerbosses are very likely to babysit them - a true deathstar of inflexible excess.

Yes, the boss detaches when the mess on wheels is close enough, but what if the nobz had the leadership to operate on their own, so the boss could be someplace else?
When all's said and done, blowing 425 points on one unit may not be the smartest thing, but it's miles head of 380 points for another that can only do one thing, and still needs babysitting to get there.

No matter how you twist and turn, 'stars' are always gonna be a terrible to 'fun' concept, but some represent better value than others, largely because they form part of their army, and so won't be an army in your army, still relying on other components for support.
The paladins above ARE their own support, and a fully functional element of a 5th edition army. Excessive cost, yes. Excessively killy? Also yes. Value for the points? Low to moderate.

Moar expensive isn't always moar betterer.

Comments (61)

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not that I've used them yet, but paying for master crafted on the psycannons and the apothicary on a 5 man unit seems too excessive. You can still do your wound allocation shenanigans on 5 paladins without the extra cost...

Paladin w/ Sword
Paladin w/ Halberd
Paladin w/ Hammer
Paladin w/ Psycannon & Sword
Paladin w/ Psycannon & Halberd
Paladin w/ Psycannon & Staff
Paladin w/ Falchions

You could make it a little cheaper if Master crafted counts as "Different" for wound allocations...not sure on that...
Granted I've come up with a 10 man squad with wound allocation, but it ranks in around 750 points for a squad...

add to the above:
Paladin Apothicary
Paladin w/ Brotherhood banner
Paladin w/ Psycannon & Hammer
1 reply · active less than 1 minute ago
It's jus the standard one, really, and it's good value for the points. Well, as far as stars go.
You don't want more, because that leads to excessive overkill, huge footprint, and just...terribleness.

Master-crafted is no-brainer. It's essentially an extra attack for 5 points, and should be on everything that's not a stormbolter.
derp...mistyping...last two paladins in first group belong to second group..
[quote]In fact, your terminators are so immune to small-arms, no one is ever gonna shoot them, [/quote]

One thing 40k has taught me...is that every single shot matters. And if you can ever lay down a whole slew of shots, no matter how many wounds and magical powers you have...if you've got to take a bucket of saves, you're going to lose some models. Terminators are anything but immune from small fire...one might say that small fire in volume is one of their biggest weaknesses. It's one of the reasons I've all but eliminated them from my lists. Nothing like 400+ points of models being shot to pieces by str 4 guns.
6 replies · active 719 weeks ago
2+ save, with feel no pain, wound allocation, and 2 wounds per guy.
They're so resistant, you need to shot something like 200 bolters to remove a single paladin.

That's the magic of the squad.
I killed four paladins in one round of combat with twenty termagants.

That's the magic of the dice.
Ya exactly...I've obliterated them as well. It's a 2+ save followed by a 50% chance of a wound. Even fateweaver falls to concentrated dakka. The more hits, the more rolls, the more failures.
Yes, and sometimes if you roll 30d6, you won't see any 2s. However, the reality of the dice says that Paladins are incredibly resilient to small arms fire- outlier events don't negate the majority of rolls where you fire sixty Boltguns and they don't lose a single guy. However, clusters of failures means that they will usually begin losing members before "filling" the unwounded Paladins.
I was just illustrating the point that point-dense units, and elite armies in general, are disproportionately affected by a few bad rolls, as you are undoubtedly aware. Hardly news to anyone, I just thought we could use a little reminder that the only thing protecting paladins is probability, not some rule that makes them actually invincible.
126 bolter shots need to be fired by troops that hit on a 3+.

Of that 126, 84 will hit. 42 will wound. 7 get through armour saves. The first five are allocated, the last two go against the terminator, and of the two one fails because of FNP.

Or so some quick head math tells me.
Is the apothicary worth it in a 5 man squad though? 70 points, that is ignored by just about any weapon that would ignore their 2+ armor save...I know its additional insurance, but just curious...would a 6th terminator be more valuable than swapping the 5th for an apoth for the extra points?
2 replies · active less than 1 minute ago
IMO the Apothecary is not worth it but my Paladin Squad is babysitting a Libby and the Grand Master so they have 5 more wounds to play around with when getting shot at. The unit is 755 points and I've only used them twice, but by God they were ridiculously awesome.
The Apothecary is pretty much never worth it, even in larger squads. 75pts is simply too much to further mitigate a minor weakness of the squad.
Battlecannons are worthless!? That's news to me... the looted Ork verision, maybe, but not my precious Leman Russ. The thing is S8 AP3! That's a no save, instant death to Marines and MEQ; Coupled with incredible range, decent accuracy, and a highly durable and cheap platform.

No doubt, someone will respond with math provong that an Executioner kills 0.25 more Marines or a Demolisher kills 3.1456 more Marines... but for the cost, durability, the versitility, and the range, I don't think the standard battlecannon Russ can be beat in the codex.
13 replies · active 719 weeks ago
Nope, I don't get that remark either. S8 AP3 is just plain pain. Maybe he means against Termies, who have a 2+ Save, but the text doesn't suggest that at all.

VT2, care to explain?
It's an AP3, S8 gun, on a tank that costs a lot of points.
For almost no increase in points, you get an AP2, S10 gun, as well as better armor, or a multi-template plasma cannon.

5th edition is coversavehammer. Thus, you shoot your battlecannon, and it kills...two marines? Yeah, great. It doesn't remove the big nasties of today, either, which is traditionally what you used the Russ for, while a demolisher is almost certain to nuke whatever it hits - be it thunderwolves or rhinos.

That's why it's never taken.
Yes and a demolisher only has a 24 range making it the worst leman russ option in the game. The standard leman russ is a cheap effective killing platform that makes space marines scared, forcing them to stick to terrain and hide like cowards nullifying their CQC capabilities all together. Oh and did i mention the demolishers pitiful range means that its armor is much worse than a regular leman russ battle tank as it has to move forward and expose rear and side armor, not to mention its going to move in to effective melta range. All you need is for a rhino to slide up 12, the marines get out 2, then thay slag it at 6, dead tank after one shot.
Killswitch's avatar

Killswitch · 719 weeks ago

How is a Leman russ cheap? Honestly? With so much terrain to take advantage of nowadays, whats the point? You not only need to hit which is 1/3 of a chance (yes thats the same as having a BS 2) you then need to get past cover saves, and hope your opponent is stupid enough to clump their squads together. Who the hell does that? 2 Hydras will cost less, can get a cover save VERY easily, can pump out 14 shots a turn wounding on 3's or 2's and can effectively drag down AV 10-12 remarkably well. Why on earth would you waste those points on a Leman Russ?
Because its AV 14 and basically indestructible, as you will never mover into melta range with a standard leman russ battle tank.
That... is a pretty huge assumption to make. Would you like to back it up for us?
You've got it mixed up, pally. The Demolisher is worlds better than the Lemon Russ for a few key reasons. S10 AP2 is infinitely more useful than S8 AP3. You can actually threaten tanks, insta-splat anything T5 or less, negate FNP to anything and actually scare most units (3+ to 4+ isn't nearly as drastic a change as 2+ to 4+). Ranges hardly matter considering battles are won and lost at midfield, where the Demolisher excels. Cover is pretty much a given in 5th ed and Marines rarely even want to leave their metal boxes, let alone charge IG across open ground. Plus, the Demolisher has superior side and rear armor, making it much more comfortable at close ranges.
"battles are won and lost at midfield, where the Demolisher excels"

You mean where Demolisher has to be to dish the pain and where demolisher gets splatted fast, or even faster.

One thing that demolisher does well though is acting as a fire magnet.
1. S8 AP3 is golden against most models in the game.

2. The Demolisher is 24" range. The Battle Cannon is 72". That is a hugely relevant.

3. The Russ isn't actually all that expensive. Yes, you often want to outfit it with sponsons (Heavy Bolter being preferred) to make better use of the chassis, but even as just an AV14 wall it is useful. It's the Guard equivalent of the Tyrannofex.

The Demolisher isn't really any more dangerous/reliable than the Russ's gun is. Battle Cannons usually penetrate Rhinos as well (best of 2d6) and IDing those rare T5 units is not a huge advantage when you factor in the loss of range.
Upgrade to demolishers or executioners.
You'll notice this steep increase in your army's powerlevel very quickly.
Demolishers are hardly better. Slightly more versatile, yes, but the poor Leman Russ is still paying a lot of point for its armour and guns.
VinsKlortho's avatar

VinsKlortho · 719 weeks ago

You could also get the 135 point Medusa which loses the armor value and gains 12" of range on a S10 AP2 gun.
The Executioner, most of the time, is a pretty terrible tank.

The Demolisher is mediocre at best.
Once I read "since it's never taken" I pretty much lost interest in this article. Such extremism is becoming too much the norm here. I expect it from other sites, but to see it so rampant here on 3++ really is beginning to turn me off.
12 replies · active 719 weeks ago
The truth is, it's never taken, and for good reason.
Do you honestly think it'd be nicknamed 'the paint removal cannon' if it was as effective as the other russes?
Wow you sure don't know anything do you, my opponents have quit in frustration at not being able to reach or deal with a tank that sits in the furthest corner of the board slagging their marines, dreads, rhinos, predators, vindicators, speeders and long fangs, all while completely immune to their long range anti tank. It just sits in the corner, completely immune, dictating to them their own movements, dictating the flow of battle, completely nullifying their battle plan, all for 160-180 points depending on equipment. Nah the things a piece of crap right mister interwebz .
Killswitch's avatar

Killswitch · 719 weeks ago

Dictating movements? Ever played a capable player who just IGNORES trash like russes who miss 2/3 of the time and do nothing? Or maybe your not playing very capable players? Have you ever faced anyone with DOA Angels, Wolf scouts or drop pods? Clearly not.
Drop pods are worthless, especially when the target tank is surrounded by a blob of 30 guardsmen or 5-7 chimeras. Ignore it at your own peril, as many a defeated space puppy has. You miss 2/3s of the time, wow you suck with scatter dice, i miss 1/6 of the time. Yes i have faced DoA, my brothers tourney army is DoA, it has never beaten me, not once. Its too unreliable, it banks too much on melta and your opponent being stupid enough to stand their and let you shoot and assault them. DoA is easily the worst kind of tourney army, all luck, no tact or finesse, i just put my entire IG army in reserve, roll of the board edge and shoot them of the table, and if their are any left my blob of 30 guardsmen just sweep them off the table in assault. Wolf scouts pretty easy to handle park you stuff in a castle, so that they can't come in behind you, then they get to assault an empty chimera, then you shoot them off the board, pretty easy if you ask me.
I put it to you that DoA, because of its reliance on extreme close-combat fighting, takes a LOT of finesse to make work. If you think that all it is is the idea of plopping your flying dudemans down on the board and praying really hard that they don't die, you haven't fought a competent Blood Angels general. Obviously, it's easy to wait for them to come in and just shoot them off the board. If they can get around that, they know how to play the army. If they haven't figured out how to drop in safely, they aren't good at playing it yet. A good DoA list will immediately cause damage and tie up units on the drop, and they are perfectly capable of bunny-hopping across the board instead.
I'm not sure how you get 1/6 misses with BS3. 1/3 is probably a bit of an exaggeration, but not by a ton.

DoA is a perfectly fine tournament army. If your experiences with it have all been poor, that's no reflection of the army- plenty of people have had a lot of success by it.

>I just put my whole army in reserve.
Oh god I wish people would do this against me. I love non-reserve armies that go all into reserves.
Hey Puppy. Could you write an article or make a short post expanding on this idea? I play DoA Angels for most of my games and really struggle to counter Nids, Dark Eldar and CSM reserving everything in on Turn 2 when I am going first (not by choice).

I get the feeling there is a sensible way to counter people doing this and that I am relying too heavily on Alpha Striking my opponents on the drop. What should I be doing to punish them reserving?
If your opponents have that much trouble with the Lemon Russ, they're not very strong opponents. It's far too easy to get cover and largely ignore it while going after more valuable targets. Or, you know, throw in some DoA jumpers, OBEL Scouts or even a zippy Land Speeder to put it out of its misery.

Battle Cannons were scary in 3rd and 4th, but they're a joke in 5th.
See my above reply to kill switch, where i respond to your weak methodologies.
People quit because there's a single tank sitting in a corner, shooting large blasts that scatter, and still allow cover saves?
Okay.

Maybe you should get some new opponents?
This is why your line of thinking doesn't make sense, of course they don't quit only because of it. It's just that on top of the vendettas, manticores, chimeras, vets with melta and plasma, and the blob guard squads, this is the straw that breaks the camel's back. This tank is what wins the war, it breaks their morale, they just can't stand it. The leman russ battle tank is filthy rape for anything with the misfortune of even being on the board.
Yes, the truth hurts.
I don't know - is it my english comprehension or something, but I have no Idea what is the conclusion of this article? It starts with deathstars, switch to mini deathstars and ends with "yes they are good and bad and whatever".

I'm baffled...
2 replies · active 719 weeks ago
It says they cost a lot, can tank guns that don't matter, but essentially die to guns that do, and are therefore bad, but some are less bad than others.
Well, predictably unit from the end of 4th edition sucks in comparison with one from the newest codex creep.

And it is meaningless anyway as I won't use paladins in my ork army where nobz are what I've got.
As the saying goes - "if you ain't got what you like you got to like what you've got".
Anon from Russia's avatar

Anon from Russia · 719 weeks ago

Wolf 2-lord attached T-wolf cavalry laughs at that. Discuss?
7 replies · active 719 weeks ago
Alright.
I spear you with my force halberds at I6. You die.

The yiffstar is also SIGNIFICANTLY more expensive than either.
Raptors8th's avatar

Raptors8th · 719 weeks ago

4xThunderwolves w/ 2 Shields, Hammer, meltabombs
Layout: Shield & Hammer
Shield
Meltabombs
Vanilla
295 points

Over 100 points less than the Paladins, can't shoot for shit but is MUCH more mobile, and can take fist/demolisher/ap2 hits better thanks to 3++ (the new black). Also they're cheap enough that taking 2 is a viable option. I'd say that's better.
wisdom like silence's avatar

wisdom like silence · 719 weeks ago

And far more vulnerable to torrent fire than paladins or nobs.
For comparison, it takes 90 Boltgun hits to bring one of them down, assuming no doubling up of wound failures (much more likely thanks to their relying on T5 rather than 2+), as opposed to the 144 hits for the Paladins above. They are also much more vulnerable to high-str/high-AP guns, such as Autocannons and Scatter Lasers.

(Personally I would run them three strong with Vanilla, SS, and Hammer to keep the price down, but to each his own, I suppose.)
Raptors8th's avatar

Raptors8th · 719 weeks ago

Yeah I've seen the "Budget Patrol" option used and it works alright, but the above squad generally last a lot longer because of the second SS and hits harder. They basically fulfill different needs though, the small squads function in a cav spam list whereas the big squad works as a rock (similar to hammernators in a crusader) in a Rhino Rush list. Since the conversation's about stars, I figured it was more relevant.

Also when comparing them to the Pally star, yes they die faster to bolters, but they can get into combat faster so they don't get shot as much. And once in combat, they'll generally survive longer thanks to high toughness/invuls. Pallys will roll over to elite combat troops. Cav won't.
Depends on the troops- BA on the charge will absolutely shred the TWC, whereas the Pallies stand a pretty good chance against them. On the other hand, TH/SS will tear up the Pallies but tend to double suicide with the TWC. Monstrous Creatures likewise end the TWC pretty solidly, but Pallies kinda scare them. Different units, different matchups. The question really comes down to "what do their respective codices need?", which is I think where the TWC have an advantage; SW can use a strong countercharge/threat, but GK doesn't need more expensive multirole guys who cut up elite troops.
Raptors8th's avatar

Raptors8th · 719 weeks ago

Alright it sounds like you're kind of agreeing with me...so, thanks? But I'm kind of confused by your comment on BA, no single BA squad can take down a cav squad (on average), unless you're putting in the 25-man DC, which we all know sucks.
dont forget you can make both units scoring! except for paladins it costs you Draigo, and with nobs it only takes 60pts of warboss
2 replies · active 719 weeks ago
MoonFever's avatar

MoonFever · 719 weeks ago

Or use a grandmaster...
That's why scoring isn't mentioned, since both are pretty much guaranteed to be.
So the conclusion is that a Space Mehreen unit from the latest codex is better than a unit from a non-marine codex that was released pre-5th Edition?

Who'd have thought it?

How about some analysis of when something stops being an "Anvil" or "Hammer" unit (and therefore a "good" inclusion in your army) and starts being a "Deathstar"? Or even a concluding paragraph that actually makes sense - because at the moment it reads:

"Paladins kill stuff very well. Paladins survive very well. Paladins do not need support units. Paladins are bad."

Call me crazy, but I'm not getting how point 4 can reasonably follow on from points 1 through 3? The only mentioned drawback is "a little expensive"... but people still take TH/SS Termies in a Crusader, so "expensive" surely can't invalidate something entirely?
5 replies · active 719 weeks ago
Land raider+hammernators is 465 points of concentrated death - not a star of any kind.
That's why we don't make fun of it, because it's actually good. A unit of paladins, seer councils, nob bikers, marine commands - they all die to hammernators.

I'm blogging - not writing study papers or essays.
I'm glade you know everything about warhammer 40k, and yes this is sarcastic in case your too slow to get it.
I've run a list that is certainly on the "fun" side of 10 paladins with all the trimmings + draigo and they will happily survive any combat you like. They marched through 25 BT termies and came out standing in a recent game vs a top ranked UK player. I am not suggesting it is balanced, but deathstars like that can destroy armies that are not particularly mobile.
Raptors8th's avatar

Raptors8th · 719 weeks ago

Should be 475 points, if you didn't take the MM you left your brain at home.
You may "only" be blogging, but ideally you still have to make sense.

By your definition of "Deathstar" or even "Ministar" then TH/SS Termies in a LR fit all the criteria. If you stay away from Melta with the Raider, it's a near-500pts of denial. They are extremely durable in an AV14 all round vehicle with 2+ and 3++. They can kill literally anything in the 40k game system with only Monoliths and Land Raiders being hard enough to ignore them. They are killy, durable, and coincidentally a pretty big (kill)point denial if your opponent can't take them out. By every criteria you used to define a Deathstar or Mini-star, they fit right in there. Possibly you should have just said "All Deathstars are crap except TH/SS Termies" and left it at that.

And really, saying "Unit X kills unit Z so unit Z is bad" is a really, really stupid way to gauge effectiveness. By that logic then Vendettas are bad because Railguns kill them. A Termie unit is never, ever going to get into combat vs a Seer Council except on the Councils terms. You send 15+ Fire Dragons at the LR/TH/SS combo and mop up the rest of the Marine army with your super-awesome jetbikes of death.

The units you listed aren't bad because they can't kill Hammernators, Hammernators are good because they can deal with those units. Do you see the difference?
SickOfVT2's avatar

SickOfVT2 · 719 weeks ago

Another lame VT2 post. Please bring back the dislike button.

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