
Deathstar.
The name itself is enough to make people laugh these days. In the olden days, the term was used to refer to ultimate bricks (4th edition marine command squads, with three characters), killing machines that, realistically, just couldn't be stopped (nob bikerz), and other assorted stupidity. "Like?" Early 5th, three ironclad dreads.
Yeah, we've come a long way since.
The key thing behind 'deatstars' is points-denial. If you can't kill it, you won't get the points, yes? So if we're playing killpoints, and I have three 500 points units, versus your 1500 point army, that's magically given me an advantage, right? Maybe? Kinda?
No.
In a game like fantasy, where you can easily stack defensive buffs/stats, and few - if any - armies have the tools needed to assail your deathstar, sure. Then 8th hit, and we got purple sun - which is a type of neutron star. I see your Purple Sun and raise you a Banner of the World Dragon. I see your banner, and raise you laserguided, knightly trebuchets. I concede.
Deathstar's don't work.
Their lack of usefulness in 40k is such that even warseer understands this, yet a new class of super-unit was invented to take its place: the mini-star.
Variously known as 'mini-stars,' 'dwarf stars,' 'white dwarves,' and 'huge wastes of points,' these units focus on killiness and durability - rather than outright denial.
To volunteer for star duty, you must be elite infantry. Monster, bike, footslogging terminators - it doesn't matter. If you can't make use of wound allocation, you're automatically disqualified.
Here, two examples.

Layout: Apothecary, halberd.
Psycannon, hammer.
Psycannon, halberd.
Hammer.
Halberd.
-
Layout: Painboy.
Big choppa.
Powerklaw, waagh banner.
Powerklaw, boss pole.
Powerklaw.
-
Paladins obviously have a shooting advantage. One large blast, two stormbolters, and two psycannons is a lot more dangerous and useful than 5 dakkagunz.
Durability?
Terminator armor is miles ahead of T5 with carapace equivalent, to a point that we'll get to after this waffling. Both units have feel no pain, must suffer ten wounds before killyness decreases, and have the same invulnerable save. Of course, there's the very real difference that battlecannons nuke the nobz, but barely scratch the terminators - however, battlecannons are terrible, so never taken since 4th edition ended. It's worth noting that T5 is as good defense against S3 firepower as 2+ armor save, by virtue of shifting the t0-wound roll far into the stratosphere.
The kicker then isn't the battlecannon (since it's never taken) - rather, that demolisher cannons destroy both, while the net durability against regular anti-elite infantry firepower (meltaguns, lascannons, lances) is pretty much the same. In fact, your terminators are so immune to small-arms, no one is ever gonna shoot them, other than as acts of defiance, and this virtual immunity will more often than not only come into play once you tie up some infantry.
In combat, the nobs are dramatically worse.
Yes, they have three powerfists, with strength 9 on the charge, and blah blah blah, but they're striking last, can't drive into terrain without risking damage, and 4+ is terrible for a combat unit - even if it has feel no pain. At least you're T5 to soak up some basic attacks.
Almost everything the paladins get the drop on gets speared 300-style, and survivors are flattened by S8/10 master-crafted hammers. Multi-wound targets? Okay, so initiative 6 force weapons. You more often than not die. Immune to that, too, somehow (avatar) Force hammer'd.
Against armored targets, the nobz ARE better. 12 fist attacks at S9 brings them as close as it gets to orkish reliability, and the 4 S7 aren't that bad, either, but when was the last time you got the drop on a stationary parking lot? It happens, but isn't something to rely on.
The nobz do have a not insignificant points-advantage, but this is more likely to reflect in the army having more guys, rather than the orks adding another nob. You know, because overkill tends to accomplish nothing.
Obviously, bike wheels move a lot faster than terminator'd feet, but with two master-crafted psycannons, and the ability to deep strike, the terminators aren't exactly in a hurry to pimpslap people. 18 threat range is something you can't overlook, however. It's nice to have the reach to grab most units.

Numbers are lots of fun, but they fall apart when you bring them to the table. Essentially, nobz and paladins are little hammers that cost ungodly amounts of points, yet produce huge numbers.
You really can't argue with the effects of a hammerblow, but what if it misses? What if it's a glasshammer? What if it's moving really, really fast, but even that speed's not fast enough? In either case, one must consider things outside the numbers.
Paladins, like all terminators, can be deepstruck in. Not only can you teleport them, but the book they're from lets you augment them with these handy spells, special abilities that can't be countered (grand strategy), load them in behemoth transports that aren't 50 foot long, with open topped armor 12 sides...
Because paladins are modern, they can be given heavy weapons, have magic powers of their own, their default implements can be given re-rolls, kill things instantly without necessarily striking last, and you can even split a full unit of them into two smaller ones. Natural weaponskill 5, initiative 6 weapons, and S10 attacks all help, too.
Nobz get re-rolls for morale tests. That's it.
They don't have built-in defense against psykers, or add heavy weapons fire to their army. The combination of low model count and bad leadership often renders nobz impotent before they even get to bring the pain, so bikerbosses are very likely to babysit them - a true deathstar of inflexible excess.
Yes, the boss detaches when the mess on wheels is close enough, but what if the nobz had the leadership to operate on their own, so the boss could be someplace else?
When all's said and done, blowing 425 points on one unit may not be the smartest thing, but it's miles head of 380 points for another that can only do one thing, and still needs babysitting to get there.
No matter how you twist and turn, 'stars' are always gonna be a terrible to 'fun' concept, but some represent better value than others, largely because they form part of their army, and so won't be an army in your army, still relying on other components for support.
The paladins above ARE their own support, and a fully functional element of a 5th edition army. Excessive cost, yes. Excessively killy? Also yes. Value for the points? Low to moderate.
Moar expensive isn't always moar betterer.
MoonFever · 719 weeks ago
Paladin w/ Sword
Paladin w/ Halberd
Paladin w/ Hammer
Paladin w/ Psycannon & Sword
Paladin w/ Psycannon & Halberd
Paladin w/ Psycannon & Staff
Paladin w/ Falchions
You could make it a little cheaper if Master crafted counts as "Different" for wound allocations...not sure on that...
Granted I've come up with a 10 man squad with wound allocation, but it ranks in around 750 points for a squad...
add to the above:
Paladin Apothicary
Paladin w/ Brotherhood banner
Paladin w/ Psycannon & Hammer
VT2 79p · 719 weeks ago
You don't want more, because that leads to excessive overkill, huge footprint, and just...terribleness.
Master-crafted is no-brainer. It's essentially an extra attack for 5 points, and should be on everything that's not a stormbolter.
MoonFever · 719 weeks ago
greggles · 719 weeks ago
One thing 40k has taught me...is that every single shot matters. And if you can ever lay down a whole slew of shots, no matter how many wounds and magical powers you have...if you've got to take a bucket of saves, you're going to lose some models. Terminators are anything but immune from small fire...one might say that small fire in volume is one of their biggest weaknesses. It's one of the reasons I've all but eliminated them from my lists. Nothing like 400+ points of models being shot to pieces by str 4 guns.
VT2 79p · 719 weeks ago
They're so resistant, you need to shot something like 200 bolters to remove a single paladin.
That's the magic of the squad.
Guest · 719 weeks ago
That's the magic of the dice.
greggles · 719 weeks ago
abusepuppy 121p · 719 weeks ago
Guest · 719 weeks ago
Guestivus · 719 weeks ago
Of that 126, 84 will hit. 42 will wound. 7 get through armour saves. The first five are allocated, the last two go against the terminator, and of the two one fails because of FNP.
Or so some quick head math tells me.
MoonFever · 719 weeks ago
I_and_I · 719 weeks ago
abusepuppy 121p · 719 weeks ago
Ajax · 719 weeks ago
No doubt, someone will respond with math provong that an Executioner kills 0.25 more Marines or a Demolisher kills 3.1456 more Marines... but for the cost, durability, the versitility, and the range, I don't think the standard battlecannon Russ can be beat in the codex.
LordRao · 719 weeks ago
VT2, care to explain?
VT2 79p · 719 weeks ago
For almost no increase in points, you get an AP2, S10 gun, as well as better armor, or a multi-template plasma cannon.
5th edition is coversavehammer. Thus, you shoot your battlecannon, and it kills...two marines? Yeah, great. It doesn't remove the big nasties of today, either, which is traditionally what you used the Russ for, while a demolisher is almost certain to nuke whatever it hits - be it thunderwolves or rhinos.
That's why it's never taken.
Adam · 719 weeks ago
Killswitch · 719 weeks ago
Adam · 719 weeks ago
abusepuppy 121p · 719 weeks ago
chumbalaya 79p · 719 weeks ago
Lehcyfer · 719 weeks ago
You mean where Demolisher has to be to dish the pain and where demolisher gets splatted fast, or even faster.
One thing that demolisher does well though is acting as a fire magnet.
abusepuppy 121p · 719 weeks ago
2. The Demolisher is 24" range. The Battle Cannon is 72". That is a hugely relevant.
3. The Russ isn't actually all that expensive. Yes, you often want to outfit it with sponsons (Heavy Bolter being preferred) to make better use of the chassis, but even as just an AV14 wall it is useful. It's the Guard equivalent of the Tyrannofex.
The Demolisher isn't really any more dangerous/reliable than the Russ's gun is. Battle Cannons usually penetrate Rhinos as well (best of 2d6) and IDing those rare T5 units is not a huge advantage when you factor in the loss of range.
VT2 79p · 719 weeks ago
You'll notice this steep increase in your army's powerlevel very quickly.
Badger · 719 weeks ago
VinsKlortho · 719 weeks ago
abusepuppy 121p · 719 weeks ago
The Demolisher is mediocre at best.
HurricaneGirl · 719 weeks ago
VT2 79p · 719 weeks ago
Do you honestly think it'd be nicknamed 'the paint removal cannon' if it was as effective as the other russes?
Adam · 719 weeks ago
Killswitch · 719 weeks ago
Adam · 719 weeks ago
timff8 · 719 weeks ago
abusepuppy 121p · 719 weeks ago
DoA is a perfectly fine tournament army. If your experiences with it have all been poor, that's no reflection of the army- plenty of people have had a lot of success by it.
>I just put my whole army in reserve.
Oh god I wish people would do this against me. I love non-reserve armies that go all into reserves.
FeralJim · 719 weeks ago
I get the feeling there is a sensible way to counter people doing this and that I am relying too heavily on Alpha Striking my opponents on the drop. What should I be doing to punish them reserving?
chumbalaya 79p · 719 weeks ago
Battle Cannons were scary in 3rd and 4th, but they're a joke in 5th.
Adam · 719 weeks ago
VT2 79p · 719 weeks ago
Okay.
Maybe you should get some new opponents?
Adam · 719 weeks ago
Red · 719 weeks ago
Lehcyfer · 719 weeks ago
I'm baffled...
VT2 79p · 719 weeks ago
lehcyfer 50p · 719 weeks ago
And it is meaningless anyway as I won't use paladins in my ork army where nobz are what I've got.
As the saying goes - "if you ain't got what you like you got to like what you've got".
Anon from Russia · 719 weeks ago
VT2 79p · 719 weeks ago
I spear you with my force halberds at I6. You die.
The yiffstar is also SIGNIFICANTLY more expensive than either.
Raptors8th · 719 weeks ago
Layout: Shield & Hammer
Shield
Meltabombs
Vanilla
295 points
Over 100 points less than the Paladins, can't shoot for shit but is MUCH more mobile, and can take fist/demolisher/ap2 hits better thanks to 3++ (the new black). Also they're cheap enough that taking 2 is a viable option. I'd say that's better.
wisdom like silence · 719 weeks ago
abusepuppy 121p · 719 weeks ago
(Personally I would run them three strong with Vanilla, SS, and Hammer to keep the price down, but to each his own, I suppose.)
Raptors8th · 719 weeks ago
Also when comparing them to the Pally star, yes they die faster to bolters, but they can get into combat faster so they don't get shot as much. And once in combat, they'll generally survive longer thanks to high toughness/invuls. Pallys will roll over to elite combat troops. Cav won't.
abusepuppy 121p · 719 weeks ago
Raptors8th · 719 weeks ago
Scuzgob · 719 weeks ago
MoonFever · 719 weeks ago
VT2 79p · 719 weeks ago
Sethis · 719 weeks ago
Who'd have thought it?
How about some analysis of when something stops being an "Anvil" or "Hammer" unit (and therefore a "good" inclusion in your army) and starts being a "Deathstar"? Or even a concluding paragraph that actually makes sense - because at the moment it reads:
"Paladins kill stuff very well. Paladins survive very well. Paladins do not need support units. Paladins are bad."
Call me crazy, but I'm not getting how point 4 can reasonably follow on from points 1 through 3? The only mentioned drawback is "a little expensive"... but people still take TH/SS Termies in a Crusader, so "expensive" surely can't invalidate something entirely?
VT2 79p · 719 weeks ago
That's why we don't make fun of it, because it's actually good. A unit of paladins, seer councils, nob bikers, marine commands - they all die to hammernators.
I'm blogging - not writing study papers or essays.
Adam · 719 weeks ago
Dan · 719 weeks ago
Raptors8th · 719 weeks ago
Sethis · 719 weeks ago
By your definition of "Deathstar" or even "Ministar" then TH/SS Termies in a LR fit all the criteria. If you stay away from Melta with the Raider, it's a near-500pts of denial. They are extremely durable in an AV14 all round vehicle with 2+ and 3++. They can kill literally anything in the 40k game system with only Monoliths and Land Raiders being hard enough to ignore them. They are killy, durable, and coincidentally a pretty big (kill)point denial if your opponent can't take them out. By every criteria you used to define a Deathstar or Mini-star, they fit right in there. Possibly you should have just said "All Deathstars are crap except TH/SS Termies" and left it at that.
And really, saying "Unit X kills unit Z so unit Z is bad" is a really, really stupid way to gauge effectiveness. By that logic then Vendettas are bad because Railguns kill them. A Termie unit is never, ever going to get into combat vs a Seer Council except on the Councils terms. You send 15+ Fire Dragons at the LR/TH/SS combo and mop up the rest of the Marine army with your super-awesome jetbikes of death.
The units you listed aren't bad because they can't kill Hammernators, Hammernators are good because they can deal with those units. Do you see the difference?
SickOfVT2 · 719 weeks ago