3++ is the new black. | Kirb your enthusiasm!: Email in: Blood Lance and the FAQ

Thursday, June 23, 2011

Email in: Blood Lance and the FAQ

Posted by Unknown

"Hi Kirby,

I played an all jumper Blood Angles list in a couple tournaments this past weekend and was reminded that due to the FAQ, Blood Lance now requires a roll to hit. What is your thought on this? Is the power now quite sub-par as opposed to quite good for its job? Also, how do you handle the shooting: roll to hit the targeted unit and then everything else under the line is hit (making it an all or nothing power), or roll to hit each unit under the line?

Is it still worth taking now that you only have a 2/3 chance to hit any vehicles/units you're actually able to reach? Or does Rage or Darkness tip the scales with all jumper lists.

Thanks,
Antebellum"

By the FAQ I do think it needs to hit but if someone argues well enough I could be convinced otherwise ^^. The extra need to hit is pretty annoying and reduces the usefulness of it but the ability to hit multiple tanks at once with a S8 AP1 shot? Very valuable on the drop and it's going to dissuade people from castling too much even if it has an extra 3+ roll required to hit.

In the end I feel Blood Lance is more of a deterrent to your opponent in that, hey you castle and I have a pretty good chance of whacking multiple tanks and damaging them severely. The main goal really of Blood Lance is to spread out castles so you can deep-strike more appropriately. For this reason I'd keep it but Sword or Rage may see more use because of the FAQ.

Comments (54)

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FeralJim · 719 weeks ago

I would argue that Blood Lance does not need to roll to hit. If you read the ability "Extend a straight line, 4D6" long, from the Librarian's base in any direction - this is the path taken by the Blood Lance. Any enemy unit in the lance's path suffer a single Strength 8 AP 1 hit.

It sounds to me like I am not actually targeting a unit with the ability, but simply choosing a direction. Any hits with it are incidental? Rolling a Psychic Test and rolling for range seems like enough chance already to me. It rarely does what you want it too.

32 replies · active 719 weeks ago

0 Vote up Vote down

FeralJim · 719 weeks ago

Against a Space Wolf Player, You roll under 10, he rolls 1-3, you roll 3+, you roll the range you need, you roll armour penetration. Ugh.

+2 Vote up Vote down

willydstyle · 719 weeks ago

The Blood Lance rule is more specific than the general rule for psychic shooting attacks established by the FAQ, thus it takes precedence. By RAW Blood Lance does not need a roll to hit, as it establishes that other prerequisites other than a to-hit roll can cause a hit.

+3 Vote up Vote down

xJoshy_Bear 28p · 719 weeks ago

The first sentence says "this power is a psychic shooting attack."

The FAQ says "Any psychic power with a profile like that of a ranged weapon (i.e. has a range, strength and AP value) and any psychic power that specifically states that it is a psychic shooting attack."

How is this difficult to comprehend?

+2 Vote up Vote down

Angelust16 · 719 weeks ago

The requirements for hitting are detailed in the psychic power's rules. Codex trumps main rule book. How is that difficult to comprehend?

+1 Vote up Vote down

Marshal_Wilhelm 71p · 719 weeks ago

If the rule in the Codex is what we go by, then the FAQ never changes any of the psychic powers does it?

"Well, I know it is a psychic shooting attack, but never in my Dex does it say 'needs to roll to hit' so it is an autohit, always"

The FAQ never gets used, because Bob uses your argument. Do you think that was the point of the FAQ, to get trumped into un-use?
"We'll write something about PSA that can never be used...."

Thoughts?

+2 Vote up Vote down

xJoshy_Bear 28p · 719 weeks ago

The codex isn't trumping anything. Nothing in the blood lance rules contradicts the rulebook or the FAQ.

+2 Vote up Vote down

Angelust16 · 719 weeks ago

Any enemy unit in the lance's path suffer a single Strength 8 AP 1 hit.

The condition for "hit" is stated above: "Any enemy unit in the lance's path"

This is obviously how it was meant to be played, and by RAW, it suffers a hit. I'm not sure how else to argue such a clear rule. If it meets the stated criteria, the stated effect follows. It seems likely to me that it's description as a psychic shooting attack is to avoid stupid rules confusions like cover, phase, shooting out of combat, etc. The way it actually scores hit is detailed in its rules description.

+2 Vote up Vote down

abusepuppy 121p · 719 weeks ago

Except that the FAQ specifies that all psychic shooting attacks, unless specified otherwise, must roll to hit. Of course you can argue that the "all units on the line" is an automatic hit, just like Jaws, but since it doesn't use the words automatic, it's hardly a strong conclusion.

+2 Vote up Vote down

Angelust16 · 719 weeks ago

AP - I think by strict grammatical parsing, it's clearly intended to mean automatically hit.

Suffer is the operative verb. Suffer means to receive a negative effect. The negative effect is a S8 hit.

If suffer actually means "may suffer", i.e. contingent upon roll to hit, than it should have stated it. Otherwise the simple and RAW reading seems to be "if you're on the line, you're hit." I would consider that a "specified otherwise".

I could see someone arguing it, and I'd just roll my BS4 against it, but I don't think that's how it was meant to work.

0 Vote up Vote down

FeralJim · 719 weeks ago

I think Angelust has nailed it.

0 Vote up Vote down

Antebellum · 719 weeks ago

Thanks for posting this Kirby.

The difficulty of the test is that yes it states it is a psychic shooting attack and it doesn't say that it automatically hits (like some other powers). But, it also says nothing about targeting any specific unit.

Another difficulty with the power is that if I draw a line with Blood Lance through three tanks, do I 'target' any of them for the purposes of charges and the rest of the units shooting? If I 'target' the first one and it is destroyed, is the rest of my unit screwed for shooting and assault? It is very vague and I have been playing that I have to nominate a target for the purposes of the rest of the unit shooting and assault, and then if it hits other units, Yay.

+2 Vote up Vote down

Kirby 118p · 719 weeks ago

Aye, it's not what we would say precisely clear but it doesn't specifically override "roll to hit."

I've always played it has to be shot at the target the unit is shooting and any subsequent unit it hits is a bonus and with the understanding you are rolling to hit, it would make sense a unit is 'targeted' though it doesn't make sense that you need to roll to hit in the first place... yay Games Workshop.

+1 Vote up Vote down

Marshal_Wilhelm 71p · 719 weeks ago

Have you commented on JotWW and the FAQ yet?

+2 Vote up Vote down

winter 30p · 719 weeks ago

I would lean towards using the same rules as per JotWW. You need to be able to target the first model, roll to hit them and any others are hit as a consequence. The powers are very similar in operation...

+1 Vote up Vote down

Marshal_Wilhelm 71p · 719 weeks ago

Strangely, the Wolf players don't like the sound of this....
^^,

+2 Vote up Vote down

winter 30p · 719 weeks ago

I'm a Wolf player and I don't mind. It is a psychic shooting attack and you must be able to see your initial target. There is nothing that says that you don't need to hit with the power (unlike Murderous Hurricane).

0 Vote up Vote down

Comrade · 719 weeks ago

I doubt many wolf players would mind as the LL/MH combo is a much better combo to take.

+1 Vote up Vote down

winter 30p · 719 weeks ago

True (that is what I use), though I've also seen Jaws spam....

0 Vote up Vote down

wisdom like silence · 719 weeks ago

Murderous Hurricane never says that you don't need to hit, it simply indicates the number of hits that are generated upon its successful casting (and, presumably, to-hit roll).

+1 Vote up Vote down

winter 30p · 719 weeks ago

Well, you still need to roll to hit with Murderous Hurricane, but the FAQ also says that even if you miss, the unit is affected by Murderous Hurricane.

So there is no need to roll to hit with it, as you always affect the unit with the power once you successfully cast it. Once you cast the power, you can roll to see if you hit with it, however even if you miss, you still do 3d6 hits. You don't roll to see if you hit with hits as they are already hits.

+1 Vote up Vote down

Comrade · 719 weeks ago

Yo dawg. I heard you liked to hit with your hit so we put a hit with your hit so you can hit while you hit

+1 Vote up Vote down

TheWolfsLunch 61p · 719 weeks ago

Yo dawg. I heard yo and yo dawg like yo-yos. So we put yo dawg in yo yo-yo so yo can yo-yo yo dawg while yo dawg yo-yos, dawg.

But seriously, what's this about MH? I've always cast, rolled 3d6, and then rolled to hit for all of those dice? It says that regardless of damage, the targeted unit suffers Difficult and Dangerous terrain.

0 Vote up Vote down

wisdom like silence · 719 weeks ago

Jaws doesn't "hit" anything, so rolling to hit is irrelevant.

+1 Vote up Vote down

winter 30p · 719 weeks ago

Please read the Space Wolves FAQ:

Q. Does Jaws of the World Wolf require line of
sight? Does it ignore terrain that blocks line of
sight (i.e., impassible terrain)?
A. As a psychic shooting attack, Jaws of the World
Wol f requires line of sight. The Rune Priest must
have line of sight to the first model that the
power affects – in effect he is treated as the target
model; the power just happens to hit everybody
else on its way through!

0 Vote up Vote down

wisdom like silence · 719 weeks ago

The wording of the actual power itself does not say it hits anything, nor does it specify what happens when and if something is hit. So again, feel free to roll to hit, but it isn't actually going to affect how the power works at all.

0 Vote up Vote down

Sanc · 719 weeks ago

When do you roll to hit?
If you follow the standard pre roll to hit of the shooting rules by checking range (extend a straight line, 4d6''..[snip].. this is the path taken by Blood Lance) you have to follow the next part... ''Any enemy unit in the lance's path suffers a single S8 AP1 hit...''
So the moment you make the line anything on it is hit. How do you roll to hit something that is taking a hit?

+1 Vote up Vote down

winter 30p · 719 weeks ago

Same as per JotWW.

By this I mean that the path that you are drawing is your desired path. If you miss the psychic shooting attack roll, the lance doesn't go along the path and so nothing gets hit.

0 Vote up Vote down

wisdom like silence · 719 weeks ago

I would imagine you roll to hit after you determine which models are affected by the power, e.g. after drawing the line.

And no, JoWW is not the same. The wording is entirely different, notably it never mentions "hits" at all.

+1 Vote up Vote down

winter 30p · 719 weeks ago

Of course it is not the same as it is a different power, however it is extremely similar (both involve drawing a line and anything along that line gets affected by the power).

As above, please read the Space Wolves FAQ as it details that JotWW is a psychic shooting attack and you need to be able to target the first model. All other models are hit if you hit the first model.

Given the similarities between the 2 powers, I'd feel comfortable using the same rules. The alternative is that you don't have LoS to something hidden behind the first model targeted in which case you can't target them and so can't shoot them.

0 Vote up Vote down

wisdom like silence · 719 weeks ago

A roll to hit is not required to target a model or unit, it's only required to inflict hits, which in the case of Jaws do not actually do anything. Having a hit inflicted is entirely different, within the context of the rules and using the vocabulary of the rules, than being required to pass a characteristic test or be removed from the table.

0 Vote up Vote down

wisdom like silence · 719 weeks ago

Look at it this way. If you fail to 'hit' with Jaws, the line is still drawn, and the models touched by the line still take an initiative test. Hits are only required in order to inflict wounds, per the rules (BRB page 19, "To decide if a hit causes a telling wound, compare the weapon’s Strength characteristic with the target’s Toughness characteristic."). None of the effects of Jaws are predicated on a successful roll to hit, by the way shooting attacks are worded in the BRB and by the way the power is worded in C :S W. They are simply predicated upon being touched by a line (and a successful psychic check).

+1 Vote up Vote down

winter 30p · 719 weeks ago

I would be convinced if we agreed to treat line like a template weapon ala Warp Rift as that would auto hit.

0 Vote up Vote down

brentinKorea · 719 weeks ago

BA FAQ
If the Librarian wishes to assault after using Blood Lance, which unit(s) is he permitted to assault?
A: Only the first unit hit by the Blood Lance.

Logically, then you don't roll to hit for Blood Lance. Because you could miss the closest enemy unit yet have to assault one further away.

4 replies · active 719 weeks ago

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abusepuppy 121p · 719 weeks ago

I don't see how that's a logical break. A strange result, but it doesn't break the logic of the game in any way.

Also, I think the presumption is that you roll to hit once for the power, and if it "works," you perform the power as described, hitting everything in a line.

0 Vote up Vote down

brentinKorea · 719 weeks ago

Show me a rule about that...
It makes no sense to have to roll to hit only one unit and then go on to hit separate units. GW would have to say that specifically for people to start doing this with Blood Lance.

Explain Blood boil and Fear of the Darkness with psychic shooting attacks need to roll to hit.
Codex trumps FAQ

+1 Vote up Vote down

Marshal_Wilhelm 71p · 719 weeks ago

Vibro cannon....?

+1 Vote up Vote down

TheWolfsLunch 61p · 719 weeks ago

Codex trumps Rulebook. FAQ trumps all.

0 Vote up Vote down

brentinKorea · 719 weeks ago

BA Codex
Blood Boil is psychic shooting attack that hits automatically an enemy unit within 12"

I think we can infer that codex trumps FAQ when FAQ says:
Do psychic shooting attacks need to roll to hit?
A: Yes.

I think we can place Blood Lance with Blood Boil in the not needing to roll to hit.

0 Vote up Vote down

brentinKorea · 719 weeks ago

I mean, I guess you can roll to hit, but it hits on a 1+ ^_^

1 reply · active less than 1 minute ago

+3 Vote up Vote down

abusepuppy 121p · 719 weeks ago

That's not how rules work, but good try.

0 Vote up Vote down

FeralJim · 719 weeks ago

The idea of rolling your psychic test, beating their psychic defenses (Rune Priest hood anyone?), rolling to hit, rolling the range you need and then further rolling armour penetration is ludicrous. So many chances to fail, all for a 125 point S8 Lance that could hit 2-3 targets?

Unfortunately with the FAQ and the Codex as written. That seems like the logical conclusion.

0 Vote up Vote down

Ben · 719 weeks ago

Psychic Shooting Attacks always required a roll to hit (unless specified otherwise). All the FAQ has done is spell it out for people.

Blood Lance still functions exactly the way it did before.

5 replies · active 719 weeks ago

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J4br4 41p · 719 weeks ago

So if I understand this correctly, you target a unit and roll for range, then roll to hit. If it's a hit (on the targeted unit) any enemy unit not in cc caught in Blood Lance's path is considered to take a hit too. If the targeted unit is missed, nothing happens...

A second question: How wide is Blood Lance's path? The librarian's base?

0 Vote up Vote down

Ben · 719 weeks ago

No, you don't target a unit, and you don't roll to hit. You apply the rules for Blood Lance just like you always have.

+1 Vote up Vote down

J4br4 41p · 719 weeks ago

O...K... Still not any clearer for me. I am kinda new to the BA codex, so if you could be more explicit I would be very grateful. How does Blood Lance work on table top? I am an idiot so if you would be so kind to spell out the idiot proof version of your comment to me. ;)

0 Vote up Vote down

Ben · 719 weeks ago

The Blood Lance rules are: Extend a line, 4D6" long, from the Librarian's base in any direction - this is the path taken by the Blood Lance. Any enemy unit in the path suffers a single Strength 8, AP 1 hit with the 'lance' type. Friendly units, and enemy units locked in close combat are unaffected - the lance darts over them before continuing on its course.

So to use Blood Lance you don't chose a target (like you would with Smite, or if you were shooting a gun). You simply choose a direction and roll 4D6 to determine the range of the power. Any unit which is touched by the Blood Lance suffers a single hit.

+1 Vote up Vote down

J4br4 41p · 719 weeks ago

Excellent! Crystal clear. Now at least I understand what we are actually talking about.
I do not know whether everyone agrees with you on this though...

Edit: spelling
Edit 2: I reread the FAQ. I have to agree with you Ben. The FAQ does not state that Blood Lance requires a roll to hit and the question does not address this. People arguing otherwise are, in my opinion, stretching the meaning of the question. The answer clearly addresses which unit can be assaulted, not whether on not Blood Lance requires rolls to hit. Rolling to hit is implied at best, never stated... No precedent here.

+1 Vote up Vote down

Lyracian 59p · 719 weeks ago

The latest FAQ implied that JOTWW and Blood Lance have to roll to hit.

That drops Jaws from ~0.61 to a ~0.41 chance of killing a Tervigion. Sounds good to me! :0)

0 Vote up Vote down

Sethis · 719 weeks ago

I always treated the "Draw a line" powers as simply being a very long, very thin Template weapon. Ergo no roll to hit, and you have to assault one of the units you hit with it if you want to assault at all.

1 reply · active less than 1 minute ago

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TheWolfsLunch 61p · 719 weeks ago

As have I, but the argument is that you now have to roll to hit in order to place the line. Frankly I believe the same thing as you, as there are no rolls to hit for either of these powers.

The assumption is that you roll to hit and then place the line. Wouldn't this be the same as, say, Living Lightning, having to roll to see if the power 'hits', then determining how many shots it takes and then rolling to hit with all of them too?
Imo, blood lance and jaws of the world wolf don't require any rolls to hit.

0 Vote up Vote down

TheDuke · 719 weeks ago

Thanks for another great FAQ, Geedub

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Antebellum · 718 weeks ago

If anyone is still reading/interested ... I called US GW Customer Service and talked with someone. That person described Blood Lance (and JOWW) as powers where you must pass a pyschic test, nominate a target, roll to hit that target, and then (if the target is hit) it hits everything under the 'line' of the spell. If you miss the roll to hit, then it misses everything.

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