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Wednesday, June 22, 2011

How Much Would You Pay For Good Luck?



Simple question, really. How many points is good luck worth? In a lot of ways it's a question you have to answer already, as you can choose to spend extra points for reliability (adding a Combi-Weapon to a squad for some extra oomph, master-crafting or otherwise buying rerolls, etc.) However, Blood Angels are in a unique situation, because they can buy luck directly. What do I mean? Enter Corbulo, Sanguinary High Priest

Corbulo doesn't just buy luck, of course- he also comes with a spare wound, a S5 Rending sword, and passes FNP tests on a 2+ while otherwise having everything that a basic Priest comes with. But if you're taking him you're taking him for that once-per-game reroll. Is it worth it? That depends.

One thing to consider is that it is a flat reroll, a do-over. You can't use it on the roll to go first, but any other roll in the game that you make is fair target. Since his ability lets you re-do a single roll, it applies to all dice rolled as part of a single action- so, for example, you would reroll an entire unit's shooting attacks or saves at once, all of the attacks from one unit during a single initiative step, all of your penetration or vehicle damage results from one of the above, etc. Note, however, that you reroll ALL of them, not just the ones you dislike. Also remember that you can never reroll something more than once, so if you have master-craft weapons, a Chaplain/Reclusiarch, etc, there will be times you cannot take advantage of him.

So is he worth the 55pts you pay over a normal Priest? Well, were you giving that Priest any special gear? Many lists simply don't have the option to realistically bring him, as they need to put Jump Packs on their dudes (or don't need a Priest in the first place.) However, if you are bringing Priests on foot, he is a pretty decent deal; against anything except ID attacks, he is actually more survivable than a Priest in Terminator armor, so he ends up being quite difficult to bring down. He also gets an okay CC weapon, although not as good as the Power Weapon that you might otherwise be handing to your Priest. He gets an extra attack in compensation, though.

But again, are you making use of that reroll? Some armies really can use it; others not so much. Everyone knows that the whole game can easily boil down to the roll of a single die, or perhaps a few dice. If you can keep Corbulo alive, he can provide a critical advantage at that juncture. For armies with Stormravens or Land Raiders, this can be a big deal, as they make getting past that critical T1/2 juncture a lot easier- remember, though, you can only reroll your OWN dice, so you need to be passing those cover saves. Once the opponent has moved on to rolling damage results, it's too late to use his ability. Here again it is important to remember that you reroll ALL the dice, no matter whether they were passed or failed, so if you pass two out of four Flat Out saves, you probably don't want to use him. Terminator armies can also make good use of him- I began considering him after some recent experiences with rolling multiple '1's on poor rounds of saves, and was looking for a way to mitigate that. Any time your game can be heavily reliant on one of a small number of rolls, Corbulo can help.

The real trick, though, is figuring out when to use him- and for this there is no easy rule. You only get one reroll, and it must be used while he is alive. Will you retry those Melta shots to break a tank? The armor saves to keep your Marines alive? The mediocre hit roll when you assault? It can be easy to just keep putting it off waiting for something better, but as a general guideline you will want to use it on any unusually bad roll that you were counting on succeeding. Derp, I know, but do you know the odds well enough to say what is "unusually bad"? You rolled four hits out of fourteen dice when you charged in- is that bad enough to warrant using it? Understanding the approximate odds is critical to making good use of Corbulo's ability.

An Aside on Wording
Now, all of this hinges on one big assumption of mine: that Corbulo allows you to reroll multiple dice at once. However, I think this belief is relatively well-supported by the rules and wording of his ability. Let's take a look at it for a second:

"Corbulo allows you a single reroll once per game. This can be of any roll you have made, such as for an armor save, a Leadership test, a To Hit roll, a scatter roll, or even to seize the initiative."


Why do I believe this allows you to reroll multiple dice? For one, GW's terminology uses "reroll" to mean all of the dice for a single event or action, such as a unit's shooting or close combat attacks. (Check the text on such abilities as Preferred Enemy for an example of such language.) To contrast, in cases where only a single die is rerolled, the phrase "reroll a single dice (sic)" is universally used, as with Master-Crafted weapons and Digital Weapons. It might also be argued that only the dice for a single model are rerolled- however, I also believe this to be incorrect, as units are universally rolled as a group, even in descriptions in the rulebook, which constitute a single "action" within the context of the rules. (For melee attacks, of course, this applies only to the attacks made during a particular initiative step by a particular unit.)

Comments (22)

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Be nice if you could keep him alive and use him to re-roll the does it end dice, should you need it to continue or end quickly. I see your point about the rolling of dice or just 1 die however I think its meant to be just 1 die and no matter how you read it, its kinda cheating within the rules of something being obscure to use it to re-roll a full squad of hits for example, in my opinion. Again good argument for it though.
if you fail a psychic test and re-roll it you definately reroll both so maybe multiple dice has merrit. Its a single re-roll not the re-roll of a single dice.
Um, I don't think you're going to convince many TO's/Judges to allow you to re-roll an entire squad's set of shots or attacks with Corbulo's re-roll.
4 replies · active 719 weeks ago
But Corbulo DOES still rock and have a lot of value.
Yea, I think he's right, but would have a hard time getting people to agree.

Re-rolling that missed Infernus pistol shot because it's the last thing with a chance to crack open a tank seems like something I could use.

Unfortunately, it basically mean removing my MM Attack Bike. Is 1 re-roll worth more than an Attack Bike for 5-7 turns? Something to think about.
I gotta agree as well. I feel it's just a single re-roll and that single re-roll can be huge (how often do games come down to one roll?) but even with that aside, Corb is awesome and well worth it in Mech lists or with Devs.
I guess it depends on the rest of your army but I would think not. Five turns of an attack bike seems better value.

If he re-rolled all dice for one action (which I do not believe) then yes he would be worthwhile.
Hey Puppy, I think you're wrong about the multiple rerolls thing. The "single reroll" vs "reroll a single dice" thing is an argument, but looking at the Preferred Enemy Rule:
"Such troops can always reroll their rolls to hit in close combat..."
Cobrulo's wording: "This can be of any roll you have made..."
The difference? Rolls vs. Roll. This is backed up by "AN armor save" (emphasis mine). If we're picking apart exact wording, I feel that singular vs. plural is important.

P.S. I appreciate you're use of the word "sic." So few people appreciate these days...
1 reply · active less than 1 minute ago
"Rolls" could be interpreted as plural to match "their," though.

Reading over things some more, I'm still no sure I'm convinced that he only lets you roll one die, but since his wording is pretty unclear and that seems to be the consensus, it's doubtful I would try and bring him to a tourney, as I don't feel he's terribly worth it. (Even though he's only 20pts more, my list is looking very tight on points, so...)

"Reroll" does seem to be used both plurally and singularly (such as p.2 in "Rerolls and roll-offs," as well as other places.) With any luck we can get this slipped into the next FAQ for clarification.
I said before the BA codex got released that I would pay 50 points in order to be able to re-roll a single dice during a game. I still stand behind this, it's that good. For those 5 points extra (as I want a priest on foot anyway) I'm getting a hugely improved Priest. One which can't be torrented out of a squad. (well, not easily at least) One which is actually competent in CC against everything without some sort of way to ignore his armour saves and FnP.

I don't get how you can read that rule in such a way that you can re-roll it for an entire squad though... Let's leave it with that, I hate rules discussions especially when I feel they're unecessary.
If the price was very low, I'd buy a re-roll. But when the price is in the range of an extra Chimera, I'd rather just buy more units and need less re-rolls.

The thing is, a re-roll needs as much luck as a regular roll. I would hate to spend 55 points on a re-roll, then re-roll that one die I needed to turn up 4+ and get a 3. I'd much rather buy a unit, or a weapon or whatever that is able to be active the whole game and let the random part do it's own thing.
2 replies · active 719 weeks ago
Puppy's point is that you are in fact not paying 55 points extra. His intent is to use Corbulo instead of a priest in terminator armor which costs 85 points. Plus you get S5 rending in stead of S4 on a power sword. A 2+ instead of a 4+ FNP save... All in all, how are you paying extra for that single reroll? Not 50 points, 20 perhaps? Is it worthwile then?
Even at 20 points I would not be willing to buy a re-roll. Maybe something around 5 points would make it worth it. I just prefer to buy more units or weapons to fire throughout the whole game.
I think the problem is that we are all trained to "never say die" so you almost always see the plural "dice" even if it should be singular.
If its all the dice associated with an action then I'm never leaving home without Corbulo again. I had previously thought its a single die (or two in the case of Leadership/Psychic checks), and still assume that to be the case. I fired off an e-mail to GW's rules section for what its worth. Aside note: that picture above is horrifying.
Warrior_Warlock's avatar

Warrior_Warlock · 719 weeks ago

That picture is hiladious, but sorry to say, so is your idea of rerolling an entire unit's roll. I also think the singular form of the wording and included example express this.
Lycaeus Wrex's avatar

Lycaeus Wrex · 719 weeks ago

Got to disagree with the 're-roll multiple dice' arguement. The rules clearly, [i]clearly[/i] intend for a single die to be re-rolled, not a whole batch. I think you'd be very hard pressed to get judges or other players to see your point of view.
Every example in the wording is singular, which indicates the use of the reroll is singular (meaning only one dice, or in the case of LD based tests, two).

That apart, he falls into my catagory of "Solid, might playtest him a bit, perfectly alright in casual games, but unlikely to make it into a final tournament list." The great thing about recent codicies is that almost every unit fits into that catagory in one form or another.
1 reply · active less than 1 minute ago
He's in all my tournament lists ;)
Vinsanity's avatar

Vinsanity · 719 weeks ago

Usually rerolls are 50,000 but those damn dwarves can get them for 40,000 :( /bloodbowl reference
I have to disagree Puppy, It seems very unlikely that it was intended that Corbulo let you reroll say ... 8 plasma shots from a DSing Plasma Guard. The singular wording in all the examples seems to support this.
Technically, what he offers is a second chance, not the ability to buy luck. If your luck is poor, you'll still fail that reroll anyway. I would certainly buy some good luck before any tournament if I could!

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