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Tuesday, July 12, 2011

3++ Vassal Ladder - Asking Around


Hi 3++! I’m Katie Drake and this is my first time writing anything for Kirby. Some of you may know me from the chatbawks or Heresy-Online.net. In time I’ll be doing at least one Codex Review either solo or alongside others and maybe even offering my viewpoint on gaming culture-specific issues. Today though, I’d like to come forth with ideas and ask the readers of 3++ how they would prefer a Vassal-based 40K Ladder work. Some may remember Kirby’s V40K ladder from a few years ago. This will be similar, but fine tuned a bit. Hopefully it’ll be even more successful.
Firstly, let’s get the very basics out of the way.

“ For those of us who weren’t around for Kirby’s league, what is a V40K ladder and how does it work?”

Essentially, a 40K ladder is a system that encourages people to play games of 40K against other ladder participants and allows players to measure their success against those of others. Players move up places on the ladder by playing and winning games against one another in a competition to ascend to the top spot and defend their position against all comers. Typically at the end of a pre-determined period of time (called a Season) the top player(s) will be awarded in some way.

The best ladders work in a way that reward larger numbers of ladder points to players who defeat opponents of equal or superior ranking more than beating someone of lower rank. This encourages players to constantly challenge themselves to take their play to the next level and discourages people from picking on newer folks.

“Sounds like fun, but how do I play?”

It’s simple. First, you’ll need Vassal as well as a copy of the 40K Module. You’ll also need to familiarize yourself with how to install and use these two things together. A guide on how to install can be found here.
Now, I’d like to ask everyone a couple of questions. Please answer them in the comments below!
  1. What point level seems most appropriate? I’m thinking of setting the “average” at 1,750 points, or maybe 1,500. Keep in mind that games on Vassal take a bit longer than ones played in person.
  2.  Do players want to be able to play different Codicies from game to game, or should people be required to stick to a single Codex over the course of a Season?

After a couple of days, I’ll take responses into account and post up the full rules for the league. Please guys, leave comments, questions and suggestions below.

Comments (30)

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I would like to answer questions 1 and 2 at the same time. I think players should have different point lists army lists. So one army list for 1500 points, one for 1750 and one for 1000 (if you want to get a quick game). Love this idea.
I agree, there may be room for 2 or even 3 leagues based on points. Vassal games can take a lot longer than face games. There are some people who already appear to have a league of somesort going on vassal, I can't recall their handle exactly but it may even say the league name in all their nicks. It may be worth asking them about theirs first. I will get back to you with the name. I'm in work now so now vassel to hand.
2000 points, fixed army list for the whole thing, and force zjoekov to play me and ill join.
3 replies · active 720 weeks ago
I agree that it should be fixed lists... for a bit of interest, you could have 2 optional fixed lists however... or be able to make changes at certain intervals. Playing with the same list can be a bit boring, especially deficiencies are made obvious after just 2-3 games.

Zjoe needs to get some Vassal balls!
The only person who has any kind of influence over me is Katie, so yes that could work. Good luck! ^^
Auretious Taak's avatar

Auretious Taak · 720 weeks ago

If you take your sweet bugger all model Drago Wing force I'll take my herohammer force! :p
mixed points between 1500 1750 and 2k with a fixed list for each one
Red Thirst's avatar

Red Thirst · 720 weeks ago

Could someone post a link to someplace that teaches the basics of Vassal? I'm frankly a little overwhelmed by everything as I've just installed it
2 replies · active 720 weeks ago
I'd be happy to teach, as would most of the vets around here.
Sounds great, I've played some "test" games on Vassal by myself but not played on online game, I'd love to get into some sort of league/ladder to both help learn and get some more games of 40k in!

I like the idea of fixed lists to stop people list tailoring, 1500 would be my preferred flavour due to the reasons mentioned and Vassal taking longer.

Question as to how we would arrange games and what time-zones people are in? i.e. is it going to be difficult for me being in the UK?

Would love to get involved in this if it does go ahead.
I'd love to get involved, but I can't see me having enough time unfortunately.

I'd certainly keep track of it... well as long as Zjoe pwns MCD!
2k games, fixed lists.
Probably make it so people have to have a 1k, 1.5k, and 2k list, too.
Roland Durendal's avatar

Roland Durendal · 720 weeks ago

I'm in Katie. It'll be like last time, only more awesome. Lemme know if you need help with anything
I'm in.
I'm wondering about timing of the games; I'm Eastern Standard time US which I bet puts me directly opposite schedule to large number of Aussie players.
That sounds like a good idea, if difficult to implement.

I think a league for different points level would be more appropriate. Not everybody plays 2k after all.

I'd be all for it, just need to get my schedule a bit more stable. And stop playing League of Legends.
Elias Macale's avatar

Elias Macale · 720 weeks ago

I'd prefer 2k, I'm not to partial on lists being fixed or not, but in the interest of preventing tailoring it's probably a good idea. I think allowing lists to change at certain intervals would be a good idea though.
1750 or 2000pts; I'd prefer 2K for practice purposes, but I'm actually okay with just about anything.

I think flexible lists are best. Possibly semi-fixed, allowing players to change their list with each new week? I think unlimited list flexibility is fine as well, but a lot of people don't seem to like it. (List-tailoring is just shooting yourself in the foot in terms of skill improvement, and if all lists are flexible, you have no guarantee your opponent will be bringing what you tailored against.) Allowing some ability to change lists is important, though, because nothing sucks like getting stuck with a list you don't like/doesn't work like you wanted.
1 reply · active 720 weeks ago
Another possibility would be to allow each player to enter up to three lists from the same codex at the decided points value, but have them commit to one list before each game.

This allows flexibility in force composition without tailoring and adds a certain uncertainty factor, as neither player will know which list the other is committing to.

That said, count me in.
I'm with Puppy. I'd prefer 2k but wouldn't mind seeing a lower points value ladder as well. I am absolutely in favor of Semi-fixed lists. You should be able to change your list at regular intervals but shouldnt be changing them every game.
Oh this would be a dream come true! It isn't possible to play any hobby games where I live. So this would be a miracle

2000 or 1850 points
Fixed codex
Semi fixed lists. Perhaps only allow 25% point changes per week. That way we can tweak but not tailor.

Man I am going to keep an eye on this. Is there anything we can do to make sure we are up to date?
As far as codices and points are concerned, I want to say semi-fixed to only two of them per person, with semi-fixed the way others have been saying before. Should add some value and thought on what to bring. As for points, 1500 or 2K. I remember people playing games at 2K that went faster than their smaller counterparts, but they were mainly due to players who knew the ins and outs of their army and knew what was being shot at them. My personal 2 cents.
1.85k, 1.75k, 2k, and 1.5k, in that order of perference. 1.5k doesn't allow all armies the points they need, lower then that creates unbalances. 2k is a bit rich. 1.75k usually allows for everything you want, plus ~100-150 points extra. 1.85k usually allows for just enough to get what you want.

Fixed lists are fine, however if we find people have made a massive blunder (are new) I'd say 1 swap should be allowable, simply because good list-building is a part of 40k. Don't really care about flexible lists.

As for flexible codecies....eh, not sure if constantly swapping dexes is alright, but swapping them around sometimes is alright.
Sounds good to me, no preferences.
backintheday's avatar

backintheday · 720 weeks ago

2,000, 1750 are the tournament norms now I say stick with them. Can I suggest a 500pt combat patrol? Vassal has a smaller table option to facilitate it.
I'd be into it. I'm new to list building in 5th, so I'd be all for being able to change lists. Anybody tailoring for me would likely get surprised with a pretty screwed-up list... and they'd probably win anyway.
Killswitch's avatar

Killswitch · 720 weeks ago

1750 tbh :)
I'd be interested, I'd also be interested in both offering hosting and possibly a prize for the league. We've been running various eSports leagues and tournaments for the past few months, and would be happy to help out.

Arthran
DevGaming.net

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