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| Maws 40k |
Most of you have seen the new Sisters of Battle rumors and the most apparent thing outside of the overhauled Faith System (D6 points per turn, only usable during player's turn) is the Immolator kick in the nuts. We knew it was coming but the glorious move 12", fire a twin-linked heavy flamer, Razorback with a firepoint has been reduced to...a Razorback with twin-linked heavy flamer. Yawn.
We shall see what the points are for everything inside a month I imagine which will drastically impact the usefulness of such things as the Exorcists (much cheaper please), Penitent Engines (much cheaper please), Repentias (cheaper please and should therefore work well with Priests + their Faith), etc. I imagine the regular Sisters of Battle will be below their previous 11 points with a premimum placed on their upgrade characters thanks to Faith. One also expects Uriah Jacobus will be quite popular (re-roll Faith amount per turn) depending upon points cost. Having an excellent counter-assault unit in Death Cult Assassins is also nice and we know how awesome they are! A 6++ on most units is nice as well but with cover predominate at 5th we have to ask why wasn't this a 5++?
So...no new new units, an overhaul to the Faith system (more streamlined but very unreliable with a 1D6 based system and then needing another D6 to pass the actual test) and a nerf to what used to be one of the best transports in the game. The major changes we can see is an effort to make the combat units more viable but this depends a lot on the points cost. Overall I cannot see the whole concept of the army changing too much. Immolator spam is unlikely to be as effective or the same calibre it is now but a lot of 3+ save units with boltguns and melta-weapons wouldn't surprise me as the norm with ranged fire support having to come from within their own codex (Retribution Squads, Exorcists).
Anyway, let's hear your thoughts. Honestly it's what one would expect from a White Dwarf codex - pretty blah. Nothing new (though we should hopefully see that box which can outfit every Sisters squad in the book) and whilst appreciated, would have been much better off coming in at the beginning of 5th edition to bring the army in line with those rules as there is unlikely to be a Sisters of Battle codex for a long time after this.
Logging you in...
John · 731 weeks ago
Trent · 731 weeks ago
Soooooo....why shouldn't I just use Codex: Grey Knights then?
At least that way I'd actually have other decent units to choose from.
artemi7 78p · 731 weeks ago
And Emperor help you if you try to play Apoc...
I_and_I · 731 weeks ago
Celiberus · 731 weeks ago
Games workshop is really disapointing the last few months ...
SandWyrm · 731 weeks ago
Points reductions, Repressors, Arbites, and Confessors with retinues was all the book really needed.
Kildash · 731 weeks ago
SageoftheTimes 77p · 731 weeks ago
Kirby 118p · 731 weeks ago
chaosgerbil 48p · 730 weeks ago
Once they actually do the sisters codex (sometime in 6th I bet) it will be properly done, with new models. There will be one or two undercosted flagship units to sell one or two overpriced kits. Just like GW normally does....
I have been in the hobby since 1993 so my cynicism is grounded in experience.
IRON FATHER · 731 weeks ago
Guest · 731 weeks ago
Eltnot 45p · 731 weeks ago
The new faith point system is not streamlined, it's more complicated. Instead of remembering five generic abilities, you now have to remember what each unit does and does not have access to. The fact that regular battle sister squads no longer have access to divine guidance means that you need more than two squads to finish off marines and it isn't feasible to get three squads within rapid fire range in one turn simply due to space. This of course makes them unplayable as sisters in HtH are dead sisters.
I would rather play with the outdated codex than this piece of steaming pile of shit. All they have done is made them halfway between marines and guard, with a quarter of the options and no real effectiveness. They lack the long range weapons to sit back and shoot like a guard army. They lack the ability to stand up in combat like a SM army. They now lack the ability to remove the enemy in short range fire fights thanks to the "streamlined" faith point system.
Fuck, I'd even say that the current Necron Codex would give me better odds of winning then what I'm about to be shafted with.
fester40k 73p · 731 weeks ago
Say it like you mean it mate!
Look, I'll make you a deal. I'll give you $50 for those crappy SoB before this release and they become completely worthless on you. Deal?
Eltnot 45p · 731 weeks ago
Zjoekov 74p · 731 weeks ago
-Rending Heavy Bolters en masse.
-(Scouting) meltas/flamers in rhinos.
-Ton of 3+ save models, all with potential buffs especially later into the game.
Damn man, seems so much weaker than Necrons!
Go back to BoLS please.
Eltnot 45p · 731 weeks ago
Scouting Dominions - Are not bad for a suicide run but are they worth it to crack open a rhino? A smart player won't leave their land raider parked terribly close to anywhere near these guys and even if they do blow it up they will die horribly next turn. They will undoubtedly be more expensive than melta vets to boot.
Tons of three plus save models - Which will shoot what exactly? They have close range weapons and closer range weapons, but no staying power in HtH. Sisters of Battle in HtH = Dead sisters of battle, it's only a question of how long and now that they no longer have Spirit of the Martyr to help them, I'd say it will be sooner rather than later. They did well in short range firefights previously due to Divine Guidance but now you will just need to throw more bodies that way. Have you ever tried to fit thirty models all in rapid fire range of one SM squad in a given turn? That's what you'll need to kill them or reduce them to a small enough size that charging you won't kill or tie up a unit of sisters.
Potential buffs later in the game - Have you read the new acts of faith? 1D6 for the entire army each turn. So when I don't need them I'll have plenty and when I need them I'll roll a one. And even then they are less reliable to go off. You can't really count on them working reliably.
Go back to BoLS please - Given that I'm currently ranked second in the world for using Sisters of Battle according to Rankings HQ, I'm not exactly stupid and don't know how to use them. I don't give a lot of weighting to that ranking because it is a rare army, but it proves that I do know what I'm doing. Being ranked 96th in Australia doesn't hurt either. http://www.rankingshq.com/public/armyprofile.aspx...
So do you have any further points you'd like to bring up?
Zjoekov 74p · 731 weeks ago
I noticed Kirby already explains my own thought more extensive, so I won't reply to everything you say here.
Acts of faith: My hopes are on Jacobus here. Also: Most units still work without Faith points, so faith points are more of a bonus imo. You talk about only getting 1, but what if you get 6 points? What if you roll well? Its the potential it has mate. That is what makes it good. It's not a 1 turn ability, you get to roll for it every turn, making it more reliable that you'll be getting some buffs throughout the game.
You talk about taking down large space marine squads. Well happily for you, these aren't really popular atm. It's mostly about MSU. But fair enough, some take them. You'll be getting new tools for these: Death Cult assassins. Rapid fire with sisters (or charge what they can charge) and countercharge with DCA.
Just wait till the complete codex please, when we at least have point costs.
Kirby 118p · 731 weeks ago
Trent · 731 weeks ago
-a Flamer
-a Heavy Flamer
-and the Superior unleashing her Brazier of Holy Fire
for 3 templates covering one unit. With rending.
That's a lot of auto-hits, a good number of wounds, and 3 or 4 rends on top of it.
Now IF they get enough Faith Points AND the roll goes off the a Sisters Squad gets to re-roll 1's to hit (not all 1's, it's NOT a Wolf Standard).
Yeah, re-rolling 1's to hit really helps with Flamers. Sigh.
Trent · 731 weeks ago
m_orga_n · 731 weeks ago
dwi
Kirby 118p · 731 weeks ago
Re-rolling ones would have been nice for the rest of the player turn. Then you get to re-roll dangerous, misses, wounds and any saves which are 1's during that time but don't get to re-roll them when your opponent shoots you ,etc.
Trent · 731 weeks ago
After wiping out an army of MSU Plague Marines with the Divine Guidance Flamer units (no FNP against AP1) I was sold on them. Oh well, guess I'll have to figure out a new way to use them. Maybe 20 Sisters ground pounding it and rapid firing? 40 Bolter shots re-rolling 1's might do some damage I guess.
Yeah, re-rolling all 1's would have been really nice. If you can get it on a T4, S4, 3 A (with Counter-Attack) Space Wolf I don't see why it's so bad on a T3, S3, 1 A Sister. Oh well, maybe when the full codex comes out.
Guestivus · 731 weeks ago
I mean, I agree broadly - we haven't seen the points (I haven't even seen the dex, anyway), so why kvetch now rather than after the second part.
But faith seems to be, as you said, a minor bonus that should cost less because it's so bloody UNreliable. So depending on how cheap they are, it could still work
Zjoekov 74p · 731 weeks ago
So I'm not saying this codex will be great. But it does have the tools it seems, which I think DE lacks in the end, so there is still hope.
chumbalaya 79p · 731 weeks ago
Kirby 118p · 731 weeks ago
I'll take Jacobus, 3x Retributors with Heavy Bolters + Superiors, a DCA or Repentia counter-assault unit, and then lots of Dominions, Celestians and Sisters of Battle in Rhinos or Immolators (depending upon points and options for TL-MM). All dependent upon points of course but that gives you lots of vehicles, lots of 3++ bodies with mobile melta/flamers (and some scouting) and potentially a lot of rending heavy bolters. I'll take it personally.
I wouldn't say the rules are terrible though I would say GW dropped the ball in terms of 5th edition codex design. There just aren't enough options, new stuff, etc. but it doesn't seem like a load of bullshit in terms of playability, particularly without knowing points yet.
Eltnot 45p · 731 weeks ago
DCA/Repentia are alright counter assault units but they will die horribly if caught in the open. The fact that Repentia can get inside a vehicle will make them better now but their lack of save leaves them only viable at counter assault against regular units. Assault marines will eat them for breakfast.
So that leaves your only reliable anti tank in melta weapons. Eldar lists can hit the closest vehicles and run away from the rest for the entire game. You need exorcists to reach out and hit them from range so that your rhinos can close on the downed vehicles.
The army doesn't play like other forces because of it's weapon restrictions. Melta razorbacks are wasteful as they can only move 6" and then fire. They basically become 24" range missile launchers most of the time. If you're using meltaguns in squads to knock out tanks then the squad will probably get cover saves from your retributors because your sisters will be in front of them, etc.
There are some nice things in the codex, but the change in faith points have changed how your regular sisters need to be played, and none of the other units which have been changed are likely to affect this substantially.
Lastly, SoB were struggling in KP point games previously. With all these cheaper units you're going to be fielding more easy kills. Guard and orks get around this with big units but big foot units don't work well in sisters because it dilutes your melta down and makes it harder to get it within range.
Kirby 118p · 731 weeks ago
Ya SoB combat will be about counter-attacks if anything.
Faith changes I'm here and there on. I think having them unit based is great, it's not like you have to remember more than what you had before and the system itself is easier to understand if you pass/fail (no over/under stuff) but becomes more of a management system based on a D6 for whole army system. The passing D6 is probably not that much worse than the old system (4+ for most squads, 3+ after a death).
And how does KP affect SoB Mech more than any other Mech? SoB mech depending upon points is probably going tohave more durable KP with SoB squads being a minimum of 10 and around 140-150 points compared to 5-man MSU Marines.
Yes the codex is meh compared to what it could have been but it's not shit.
Eltnot 45p · 731 weeks ago
MM Immolators aren't very effective because to do their job they need to be moving 6". For the squad inside to do its job effectively, they need the MM Immolator to be moving 12".
Back to Rending Heavy Bolters, a squad can take up to four of them putting out a total of twelve shots a turn. Assuming they have taken a casualty and you pull off the act of faith, they will score 8 hits on average followed by 1.333 rending hits. One faith point and a whole bunch of luck, just for one rending hit is pretty darn crap. Without it though they can't even touch a Chimera. There was a reason you didn't seem them in any armylists previously, and not just because they were overcosted. It is because they are anti infantry units in a world where any unit their AP4 guns could shoot at could just as easily get a 4+ cover save. They do an okay job, but other units in the codex can do the same job without denying you long range anti tank.
Kirby 118p · 731 weeks ago
Yes we'll have to see the codex before we can say if they are decent or not (i.e. can we take Immos for Retributors who of course aren't be going to use them or using them with Dominions + Scout, etc.). There are options for them so don't simply write them off currently.
They are ranged 36". They are reliably going to put 5-6 wounds on anything up to that range. Rending allows them to have some duality if not amazing. All in an army which lacks ranged anything.
Sure with Immolators being less awesome and no more inducted Guard, Exorcists might see more play but will hopefully be much cheaper and aren't the only HSupport worth taking.
ian!!! · 731 weeks ago
Eltnot 45p · 731 weeks ago
Zjoekov 74p · 731 weeks ago
Faith system seems decent actually, I like it a lot more compared to the old system.
Eltnot 45p · 731 weeks ago
"I reply to the things somebody says, not the person behind it. You don't need to back yourself up with stats, just talk sense okay?"
You think the new faith point system is decent and you like it a lot compared to the older?
New System:
Unreliable due to pool size and the test applied to actuall acts of faith.
Less effective abilities overall.
More complicated due to having to remember every units individual abilities.
Old System
Fairly reliable if you knew what you were doing (Spirit of the martyr on small squads, divine guiadance on big squads, etc).
Quite effective when used properly (get a some good hits with flamers and you could kill quite a lot with divine guidance. Jump Canoness could tie up squads for extended periods of time generally).
Less complicated due to having only fives acts of faith.
And I'm the one not talking sense....
Zjoekov 74p · 731 weeks ago
Why I like it more?
Different acts of faith for different units. Feels more special.
Simply d6 each turn. This way I don't have to see if my oppenent is cheating or not with his amount of faith points. Makes it easier as an oppenent of sisters ;)
Personally I don't have problems remembering what the faith points do for each unit. Even better: I'm pretty sure I remember them right now already from the top of my head. Now I'm sure you can manage that too after reading the codex a couple of more times or playing with them ;)
ManusCelerDei 53p · 731 weeks ago
I used to run the tri falcon list in 4th edition, and could totally understand why it got shafted in 5th edition. Same with nids, the old book was arguably more powerful than the current codex, but was so much more boring to see. Ill support knocking armies down the power roster for some more variety
Cry less, and pro more, homie.
Meister_Kai · 731 weeks ago
Pop421 · 731 weeks ago
-SOB are played: multipled melta-flamer unit in rhino + few counter attack unit
-Metagame is today: welcome in the mech world.
Faith points are changed but again “not drastically”. They are still medium boost of a unit for one phase, need fine use of them (limited point) and can be optimized through the way you play (before: number of people in squad, now: attached people).
Overall it will be old sob with more body/rhino (probably +10-15 body and +1-2 chassis), slight increase in short range fire 12’ (more body, increase melta efficiency) and reduce efficiency/reliability in assault.
IRON FATHER · 731 weeks ago
Kirby 118p · 731 weeks ago
Eltnot 45p · 731 weeks ago
Sleepy · 731 weeks ago
Also a little disappointed in the penitent engines closes combat attacks restrictions sure if we are lucky it could pull of a max of 16 attacks on a charge rolling a 6 with plus two for two close combat weapons and charging. But anyone would think that a crazy person trying to gain forgiveness from the emperor would to kill as much traitors as possible without stopping like the dreadnought that just has fancy claws that allows it to keep killing as long as it keeps killing.
Also anyone else notice the brackets next to the transport options in the rhino and immolator can not transport models in terminator amour. While i was hoping for some sisters with a 2+ save i was hoping for something more interesting then girls in terminator armour hell artificer Armour would of been better since doesn't terminator armour require some of the transplants that SM have?
Eltnot 45p · 731 weeks ago
MeatPuppet · 731 weeks ago
Sethis · 731 weeks ago
That is all.
timff8 · 731 weeks ago
I looked at it, and it really seems, like the BA's white dwarf book, a patch-job while they hammer out a new, real codex over the next two years.
Would you guys suggest he starts them now, or hang on until the actual codex comes out? I don't think buying standard sisters would be so bad, as no matter what codex it is, you will need a ton of sisters with bolters, and the current metal models look fine.
Kirby 118p · 731 weeks ago
Brother Captain Ed · 731 weeks ago
The biggest issue with the army was COST! It's easily 3x more expensive to get Sisters than any other troops. Nothing changed that. No plastic Sisters on the horizon. And, since we have lesser faith now, even if they compensate that with lower points cost, that only makes the monetary cost worse.
As far as 5th Ed Codices go, this is not good. Especially when juxtaposed to the incredible Grey Knight codex. It feels like placing lipstick on a pig and hoping that satisfies us. The irony is that it was already a prize winning pig and the lipstick means the judges won't even stop to look.
I think this marks the end of the line for GW and me. I'd rather of the frustration of trying to find models from PP to play a better game, than all the models I can afford from GW (which is damn few) for a lackluster gaming experience.
Saramoff · 731 weeks ago
SinSynn 107p · 731 weeks ago
:D
Kirby 118p · 731 weeks ago
Then it would have been much better to read here with pink comments laced throughout, a heavy dose of sarcasm and a big hammer to smash to stupid with.
Otherwise, no - it's not bad.
lords2001 · 731 weeks ago
I think he has already done that job.
Warboss Stalin · 731 weeks ago
Meister_Kai · 731 weeks ago
Malkov · 731 weeks ago
Hasn't anyone else noticed Vehicles have Shield of Faith? 6++ isn't much but when you're most/all mech at 2k, those rolls can add upin a force that loves to get close.
blacksly · 731 weeks ago
Balance: I think the army may end up a little more balanced now, given fair costs. It used to be nothing but short-range melta as anti-tank, now if Immolators become significantly cheaper (and they should), we can use the dual-MM weapon on them to get anti-tank at range > 12" other than from the HS slot. If Exorcists also get cheaper (and remain as strong in anti-tank firepower), then we have a more viable mid-ranged anti-tank army. In return, we lose the ability to get 3++ pretty reliably, and to get Rending. Basically, we lose short-range anti-infantry firepower, but gain mid-long range anti-tank. Given how good DCA squads are at chomping dismounted infantry, I'm not sure that losing anti-infantry firepower is as much of a negative as gaining more ranged anti-tank.
Note that this does assume a significant point drop for the MM-version Immolator, as well as Exorcists that are comparable in firepower to what we have now, plus a slight drop in points. Heck, even at the same points they're tolerable.
I'm a little unhappy, again as a game designer, that they have set up SoB to be so fragile at their best range (<12"), almost requiring DCA squads as counter-charge units. The army shouldn't be driven into specific builds to be competitive. Penitent Engines, even if cheaper, cannot be counted on as counter-charge units since they can be shot off too easily. Rage is not as much of an issue on a Walker without a turret, since it can only "see" units in its 45-degree Fire Arc, so you can generally just face it in the direction that you want it to move. But their fragility is an issue if you want to use them as a "get off me" unit, and SoB now look like they will have huge problems without some "get the bad men off us" units.
timff8 · 730 weeks ago
Eltnot 45p · 730 weeks ago
chaosgerbil 48p · 730 weeks ago
I am glad that allies are consistent now at least, although I would be interested in an across the board 25% allies allowance if the army special rules and character buffs did not apply to and from allies. Only allowing imperial armies access to ally was a pretty big advantage added to what were already the most powerful factions.
Eltnot 45p · 730 weeks ago
vonklaude · 731 weeks ago
Vilicate · 730 weeks ago
I'm with you; it looks like they've significantly reduced abilities, but if that comes with a significant points drop, this could be an extremely good army.
Kirby 118p · 730 weeks ago
The Immolator has lost these abilities - specifically moving 12" and firing which means the transport itself is far less useful. No longer do you have the option to move 12", getting those meltaguns into place with one tank and move a 2nd tank 6" and use both chassis to protect the infantry and fire three meltaguns + 2 heavy flamers at a target.
In this regard, Immolators are nerfed. They'll probably be around 40 points but unless being able to move and fire 12" is in their weapon profile, they are not as good as they used to be - no matter the points in this case.
Crynn1 · 730 weeks ago
I am not even a sisters player so I am not whinging because my codex sucks, I'm looking at this thinking "my poor sister playing friends". Now in saying that EVERYTHING DEPENDS ON POINT COSTS!! If a sister is 8 points and the upgrades are cheap then it will be very strong. (obviously) however if they have an everage price then I can't see them being particularly effective because their special abilities are rather limited so we are looking at a numbers army here.
Could be wrong. Lets wait till part two before we all start screaming and shouting.
Regards,
Crynn
vonklaude · 730 weeks ago
garthmichel 38p · 730 weeks ago
If min squad size is 5 for SoB and immos can get blessed ammo (+1S prob), then we're looking at similar builds to coteaz razor spam. Dominions with scout is nice too, again will depend on point cost and upgrade costs.
I could see armies looking like this
4x 5 SoB w/ melta + immo with blessed bolters
2x 10 SoB w/ 2 melta, vet w/ Eviserator + rhino
2x 5 Dominions w/ 2-4 melta + immo with heavy flamer
3x Exorsist
2x Priest with assassins in rhinos
But like I said, it depends on point costs.
Ripgiblet · 728 weeks ago
Scout on FA guys...
Sisters Repentia in Vehicles will be a very effective anti Vehicle unit... since you can charge multiple vehicles at once and eviscerators are pretty good anti-vehicle... So in 1 turn the could pretty much pay for themselves before they die:]