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I know it's nearly the end of the week but I think I'm going to go through some match-ups for Tyranids. I'll probably continue this to next week as well but I'm seeing a lot of people going too far in the 'Tyranids suck' department or saying why they are bad in competitive play but being wrong. Now let's be clear, I love my Tyranids (and I do have the bug itch as BroLo calls it currently) and they are certainly a good army but there are some armies that they just run into and... well stop. They can certainly win the games but it's hard.
We're going to look at this over the next several posts (it won't be all Tyranids don't worry) in army comparisons with a full-up summary of Tyranids in 5th and army building in regards to balanced lists. There are some great examples of what I think are the best Nid lists out there currently and whilst these style of lists are popular, there are certainly options around them.
So before I knuckle down and crank out the comparison posts - speak up. Why do you think Tyranids suffer in a tournament environment? What list building issues do they have if any? What match up issues do they have if any? What specifically is it about these match ups that causes problems?
I have some obvious ideas that I want to address in these posts but the more information you give me the more information I can give back in this regards. Some things I might not think to address for example or view in a different way. So spill the beans :).
Logging you in...
SinSynn 107p · 717 weeks ago
YAY!!!!!1111!!!
I'm sure my coffee will remain firmly in-hand during my morning 40k 'reading time' while I'm here, at least, thank you very much, Kirby
;)
Truthfully, I would say Tyranids have it in 'em to be on the Top 4 tables, actually 'winning it all' IS posible, but against the 'evilest of evil Hard Lists,' they require a little luck AND things 'going their way.'
Good opponents will do their darndest to prevent that from happening......it is what it is....
Playing Tyrnids well requires a certain mindset that does NOT apply to standard 'Troop and Transport' Armies- mass sacrifice and headlong assaults into enemy fire, suppression and infiltration tactics, etc- Tyranids just DON'T WORK like every other army in the game.
List building is a big issue with 'Nids. Units must combine into a force that efficiently uses the 'tricks' built into the Codex. Random 'cool stuff' thrown together usually ends badly.
There's plenty more reasons why 'Nids are the current 'Underdog Army' in 5th, but really, I enjoy ROFL-stomping folks who think they'll pull a win on my Bugs....
HurricaneGirl · 717 weeks ago
Brwrr · 717 weeks ago
wolflord · 717 weeks ago
wolflord · 717 weeks ago
Kirby 118p · 717 weeks ago
Marshal_Wilhelm 71p · 717 weeks ago
Jackshrapnel 11p · 717 weeks ago
Tyranids are the army that got me playing 40k, and I keep coming back to them... but against a competitive list they usually make me more frustrated than anything else.... vs. a good list with a good player = a rough time for my nids, regardless of what I bring...
Kirby 118p · 717 weeks ago
bugsculptor · 717 weeks ago
That experience was after scraping the most tenuous win ever against an 8 wave serpent army with max fire dragons, lots of dire avengers and an avatar... which was also a pretty painful game, but at least my toys did what they were supposed to and shot down a handful of flying saucers.
Kirby 118p · 717 weeks ago
The summary basically is DE and Nids matchup strength to strength. I would say Venom spam is the hardest match up for Nids from the DE book but it has issues against other armies when running 9 Venoms (6 is still obviously an issue). Read that and if you still have any questions drop me an e-mail or post here again and I'll do a Mark II or something :P.
bugsculptor · 716 weeks ago
My game was playing for KP with a diagonal table deployment - I played it as well as I could, but in that particular case it turned a bad army match up into an unwinnable game. And yep... I used onslaught to push a hive guard forward and tried to get control of the table center, but it's that much harder when your ranges are cut. It's inspired me to try out a few biovores, as at least if my t-fex cracks one transport across the table I'll have something that can try and kill the contents.
stephen · 717 weeks ago
my second question is how to fit long range fire power into the list. i curently run 2 tfexs but that's 1/4 of my army in bs3 platforms that seem to be unwhelming in most games. i'm debating running only 1 tfex or 2 harpys and beefing up the rest of the army but that leaves me vulnerable to AV14.
Sethis · 717 weeks ago
akt · 717 weeks ago
I currently run around 35 stealers, hive guards, 2 tfexs, 2 tervigons more or less. I believe Grey Knights (apart from few certain builds) are a bad match up for Nids.
Nurglez · 717 weeks ago
So I'd like to see some good tactics to help him out :D
Son of Russ · 717 weeks ago
TL;DR: Hit the PaladinStar with everything you have and hope for the best. I know it sounds bad but keeping faith in yourself and your army and being willing to roll with the punches is key to playing 40k in general, and Tyranids especially.
The 6th Degree · 717 weeks ago
For a start - don't bother with gaunts, as the armour, wound allocation and FNP makes assaulting them pointless. I did basic math hammer and 30 super Horms charging can only inflict 2 wounds against the squad (and thats wounds and not kills).
To take them out, I use Hive Guards and 2 xD akkafex's to pour on fire. Try and get some broods of stealers and a a Trygon or two on the flanks and advance a Tyrant deathstar close as possible. Then its all about the timing - you need to get off Paroxysm and have O)ld Adversary and charge the Stealers and Trygons in. The Paladins might still go first (depending on theior loadout), but they are hitting and wounding on a 6 and are in SotW range.
Another alternative is a big brood of Shrikes or Warriors with LW/BS combo's. This will wipe them out in a turn of combat...but so far I have never been able to get them close enough...
Roland Durendal · 717 weeks ago
The Pallies striking back (or first) will do (assuming 10 dudes)
20 attacks (2/3) = 13 hits
13hits * (2/3) = 9 wounds, so 9 die
20X Gaunts remaining (TS, AG) = 60 attacks on the charge
60*(1/2) - 30; reroll 30*(1/2) = 15
Total: 45 hits
45*(1/2) = 23 wounds; reroll 22*(1/2) = 11
Total: 34 wounds
34*(5/6) = 28 saves
Which means 6 wounds. That could mean (if wound allocation sucks) 3 dead dudes, but more than likely 6 wounded dudes. W/o Preferred Enemy and only rerolling 1's, drops this down to 4 wounds on the first round of combat.
Granted they'll lose combat by 3, prolly take 3 more wounds cuz of fearless and stick around
Anyway I completely agree they are not probably the most effective way of killing Pallies, but they definitely can put out the hurt.
Angelic Despot · 717 weeks ago
I bought a whole bunch of 'nids when they were about to be released, expecting them to play a certain way and allowing me to do something I couldn't do with my orks: creep people out and make them sweat, like they used to do in 2nd edition, with lots of weird creatures popping up all over the place, shredding your sanity and tearing you to pieces in close combat.
What I find when I look at the army list is a codex that seems to suffer from most of the same problems that my ork infantry horde has. My criticism of the codex is not based on me being a brilliant player who has a history of winning tournaments but just is unable to with the Tyranids. That said, I'm looking at this and thinking 'if I have these problems with orks, I can't think how things will be any better with the Tyranids'. I'm not terribly bothered about kicking ass, but it would be nice to win occasionally. The main reason I haven't got around to playing with the nids is that I just can't see things being any different in the way games play (not just the results), even if the models do look different.
Anyway, here we go:
The army seems very slow and difficult to manoeuvre: if you take units large enough to survive the trek to the opponent, they're too slow and unwieldy, and too easy to avoid. If you take small units, they either can't take a moderate round of shooting, or they just don't hit hard enough in close combat when they arrive.
They have very few ways to stop mobile armour running rings around you. I know you've talked about suppression rather than destruction a lot, but I find that the proportion of my army it takes to do this is much larger than the proportion of my opponent's army taken to blast massive chunks out of mine. So each turn I may be preventing a few tanks from firing and blowing off a track or a heavy bolter, but whole units of mine are dropping like flies.
I find my games tend to end with both sides having inflicted heavy casualties, but my few survivors not being in positions where they can do anything, while my opponents' survivors have been able to grab objectives/deny big kill points etc. My units have to remain (relatively) close to each other so that they can provide each other support. Eldar units, with longer ranged weapons and faster speed either don't, or do - but have the speed necessary to get the objectives once the slaughter is almost over.
Lots of units just don't seem to 'work'. Lictors being the best example: what should have been a cool, scary inflitrator that leads the horde to the enemy's heart has a 75% chance of arriving too late to help direct any other reserves you may wish to guide in. But heavy venom cannons aren't much of a threat to tanks, carnifexes can't charge in and slaughter stuff without being easily killed, and genestealers, who should be the ultimate scary threat stalking through dark corridors, dropping from treetops etc... strike last against most of the people you want to kill (i.e. those in cover). Oh, and the army's terrifying psychic powers have very short ranges, keep getting stopped by psychic hoods, or finding most of their targets immune, etc, etc.
It's not that I object to Tyranids finding tanks hard to beat. At all. But if that's the case, then when balancing an army, that needs to be taken into account, and there has to be an alternative way to win the game. For me, it's not so much the heaviness of the armour as the speed of the armour that I find the problem.
The other thing I find is that at 1000-1500 points (the size of games I play), I find I can never include enough to actually get much synergy between my units. I shouldn't have to play games larger than 1500 (I believe that's the size the game is designed for), but even if I did, when I see my opponents' armies I think 'I've finally got enough points to make this one trick work... And they've got enough points to buy enough weaponry and manoeuverability to not care very much.'
There. I know it's not very specific, or particularly valuable in the sense of coming from someone with a hard core 40K reputation, but so far most of the comments you've received have been 'awesome/I love the Tyrianids' rather than 'ok: here's the problem', so I hope I'm being constructive!
That said, I do like the blog a lot - especially the tone. You guys are obviously a lot more competitive than I am, but you do seem to be open, friendly and taking the time to explain the way you do things, rather than assuming that everyone else is evil/wrong.
Son of Russ · 717 weeks ago
Son of Russ · 717 weeks ago
Son of Russ · 717 weeks ago
Went Awer · 717 weeks ago
Roland Durendal · 717 weeks ago
Roland Durendal · 717 weeks ago
Swarm Lord w/ 2X Tyrant Guard (Lash Whips)
3X3 groups of Zoans
2X10 strong Termagant Squads (don't think they have TS/AG)
2X Tervigons (AG, TS, Catalyst, Regen, and I believe Onslaught)
2X20 Hormagaunt Squads (AG, TS)
2X Tyranofexes
Prolly some more to round it out at 2500 (such as upgrades I'm forgetting). But that's the long and short of it. We'll see how it does against some more tourney lists and players from all over the state next week as opposed to just our local area.
PS Hormies with Preferred Enemy from the Swarmlord and getting FC off on the charge (yay S4 and rerolls to wound!) suck balls to face. Facing all those rerolls to hit and wound on the first round of combat = death to pretty much anything.
Karvala · 717 weeks ago
Too much competition for elite slots.
Too little useful anti-tank outside of elite slots
Too much dependence on psychic abilities
Too little psychic defense
Lack of assault grenades on most close combat units
Lack of invulnerable saves/dependence on cover saves (sucks in most tournaments where area terrain is often lacking)
Lack of Eternal Warrior on almost all multi-wound models
Low BS on most units
Deployment inflexibility with mycetic spores
Reserves manipulation only possible with overly expensive HQ choices
No vehicles to protect and transport squishy minimum squad troops choices and add firing platforms to the FOC.
Restrictive lack of models available makes playing some unit types in WYSIWYG tournaments difficult
Bad Matchups:
Space wolves - Jaws, Murderous Hurricane, missile spam, Razorspam - all bad news.
Grey Knights - Purifiers, S8 rifledreads, unstunnable vehicles, force weapons galore, rad grenades + hammerhand + daemonhammers for ID hits, ridiculously cheap henchman units. Too many S4 and S5 stormbolter shots, S7 rending autocannons and psycannons. Dreadknights rubbing our carnifexes noses in their lower point cost and much better statlines.
Dark Eldar - high mobility vehicles with range reduction for our shooting. Poison shooting and S8 AP2 lance spam.
IG - Mechspam with oodles of big ID-causing blasts and lots of heavy flamer templates on chimeras
I won a couple of RTT tournaments with my Tyranids last year, but nowadays they just crumble, especially to GK. For tournament played they are benched and the SW are back.
Son of Russ · 717 weeks ago
maddoc · 717 weeks ago
Do we really need to beat a dead horse for whole week? Is there any list that was not discussed to death? Is it not obvious which units are good and which are not? Is it not clear why Tyranids have problems and against who you don't really need to put models on the table?
On the other hand i like setup/deployment discussion, how to handle different situations these are rare on the internet but please no more dead horse beating. Let the poor dead horse have their quiet.
Pop421 · 717 weeks ago
Lack of clear, adaptable concept. Competitive army are build around a simple concept (MSU to overwhelm you with target, Alpha strike , Deathstar “unkillable” that will tear down your army,…) with option to improve adapt to opponent’s strength (bubble wrap to protect mech, reserve manipulation to improve alpha strike,…). I’ve never seen a competitive tyranids built-up with such a clear concept. And I honestly don’t see what is the real competitive advantage of tyranids when for other army it is clear (cheap vehicle for GI, tremendous firepower @24 for GK,…)
Lack of adaptability to beat all top lists. You can build a tyranids army to beat a GI with a lot of backfield shooting (5-6 Heavy support tank + 2-3 vendetta + 6-7 chimera) around hive guard + genestealer for disrupting the backfield parking lot. But then the build will be pretty weak against MSU GK that will optimize their firepower (while denying infiltrate). If you close the gap on this army then you will probably be pretty weak vs Thunderwolf cavalry or deathstar built with LR…
Scuzgob · 717 weeks ago
also, cover being important as it is, and most CC tyranid units lacking assault grenades is a big downside
Bro_Lo 82p · 717 weeks ago
I've got 6 days off from tomorrow, so i can sit on my new sofa, paint bugs and post them on 3++.
How sad am I?!
Notanoob · 716 weeks ago
Also, we get a lot of stuff that we don't want to pay for, and just have strange pricing in general. Some things, like WS8 on the Tyrant and two psychic powers when we only ever will use one, are just inflating the price without adding much value. The other problem I mentioned has to do with the cost of upgrading our base equipment; it doesn't seem as if the upgrades were priced with the fact that you are loosing something to get something else in mind.
Warrior_Warlock · 716 weeks ago
what works vs de though (for me) is a combination of hive guard, devil gaunts vs transports and several small units of warriors with lash whips. i just love making witches and incubi strike last :)