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Wednesday, July 6, 2011

Unit Comparison: Tyranid Raveners and Genestealers

Genestealers seem to be the rage these days whilst Raveners have oft been neglected. Let's take a look at both units who fulfil very similar roles in terms of what they bring to the army and their literal effect upon the tabletop. This post isn't going to conclude with a this unit is better but rather give you the tools to decide what you would like to fit into your army.

Both Genestealers and Raveners are combat creatures with ability to engage the enemy early in the game. Raveners are beasts which gives them a potential charge range of 24" and gets them across the field very quickly. Genestealers are normal infantry with Fleet but can infiltrate which puts them up close to the opponent early, especially if you can hide them. Both utilise high weapon skill, initiative and number of attacks combined with Rending to deal with foes before they can retaliate. Neither of them are particularly durable but cover helps this a lot and the units are all about weakening the opponent in combat before they can swing. Like many Tyranids however, they suffer from lack of offensive grenades and whilst they can move through cover quickly, assaulting through cover for both of these units can be a death sentence. Let's look at the particulars then and their specific differences.



For every Ravener with Rending Claws you can take two Genestealers with Toxin sacs for nearly the exact same points (35 to 34). In terms of offensive capacity these two separate units will put out roughly similar attacks both on the charge and in prolonged combats (Genestealers have the mild edge on the charge due to increased body numbers). The Genestealers however have the massive advantage of Toxin Sacs which against T4 or less units, allows failed wounds to be re-rolled. Statistically this allows the Genestealers roughly 1.5 bites at the apple in terms of rending and obviously increases their wound count over Raveners regardless. This is really huge as it allows the Genestealers to have a bigger impact before they are in turn struck. Raveners mitigate this somewhat with scything talons which effectively re-rolls 50% of their misses against Marines though Toxin Sacs are obviously the better option here (remember, extra chances of rend = good).

Whilst Raveners and Genestealers are both faster than your stock standard Marine and hit on 3's, Genestealers have an extra pip in each of these stats (Weapon Skill and Initiative) meaning they'll do that much better against units with improved WS or fast units (i.e. Dark Eldar). Genestealers have the added benefit of being Troops though being shock units, this generally doesn't mean too much as they are unlikely to live through the game. The main difference between the units is their defenses. They are both T4/5+ and benefit a lot from cover but whilst Genestealers maintain their effectiveness through bodies, Raveners do this through multiple T4 wounds. This is really important for target priority in your opponent - Raveners attract the same type of firepower your important units (Tervigons and Hive Guard) attract which minimises the effectiveness against those other units or your unit maintains maximum efficiency for longer. At the same time, S8+ weaponry and quickly decimate this unit though flamers can do the same to Genestealers.

Conclusion

What we get in the end is very similar units with each being a bit stronger in different areas. These strengths are what you are going to base your unit selection on. If you want smaller units which can get into your opponent's backfield quickly and saturate the battlefield against S8+ weaponry, Raveners are your bet. Not having to spend as many points on these units makes it easier to fit into lists as well (105-140 points for 3-4 strong units are fine). If you want larger infantry units which can benefit from Catalyst and are better Marine killers thanks to toxin re-rolls, go for Genestealers. You really need to be able to cast Catalyst on these guys to get the best from them however to make sure they aren't bolter bait and this can fall apart against psychic defenses or simply overload your Tervigons with Catalyst targets.

Either way, each unit is going to add fast combat punch to your army with lots of rending attacks at a high weapon skill and initiative. If you're looking for more combat power in your army, it's hard to go past either of these units. If you had to pin me down on which was the better unit, I'd go with Genestealers with Toxin Sacs. Those re-rolls to wound and extra chances to rend are huge though Raveners do get re-rolls to hit and are more effective as cheaper squads (i.e. I'd want at least 10 Genestealers).

Comments (22)

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I think initially a lot of people went ew to Genestealers because people ran them like this: all or none. Stealer shock is just a neh list concept both in 4th and now. I certainly think they have increased in popularity to give the army more reliability in combat though.
Oh and forgot Genestealers don't rely on Synapse which gives them some extra flexibility.
3 replies · active 717 weeks ago
that's a big 'forgot' :P
It's a huge point, and I was shocked to see their new Ld stat the first time I played them in the new codex. A small unit of 3 or 4 raveners can break from three wounds of bolter fire if they're out of Synapse... and they flee as beasts. Their terrible leadership is what sinks them as a deep striking unit, as they have to have Synapse to be useful. It's doubly irritating as their charge range is just enough to take them out of Synapse range of their accompanying boss creature... in that case they better pick a combat they'll win, because if they lose by one or two wounds they're out of there.

They make great countercharging troops, as in Synapse they can easily charge anything you don't want getting close to your Phalanx.
Shadowmancer's avatar

Shadowmancer · 717 weeks ago

Genestealers are troops therefore they can score and can go up stairs. Raveners can do neither. I would try and fit both in a list, but if I had to make a choice, Genestealers.
1 reply · active less than 1 minute ago
Also... it's never practical to do so, but still funny: Genestealers can come out of Trygon tunnels and Raveners can't.
I personnaly prefer stealar over raveners as:
- they are troops. Even if this unit are "thrown" in dangerous situation, and thus will lose a lot of body over the course of a game. One stealar is still a scoring unit and can hide pretty easely near an objective,
- I value Infiltrate above Beast. In term of charging as soon as possible it is roughly the same. When it comes to option and disruption it is much better as it can affect ennemy deployement either throught infiltration or out flanking
- Vulnerability to S8. Catalyst is then less efficient on Raveners: S8 shots deny you the FNP and are not wasted shot for removing FNP as they also inflict autokill. In CC the fact that the ennemy PF can autokill you (or force weapon) will lead to less interesting battle result.
- Less efficient againt specialized CC unit due to I5 & less WS: Stealar can play the protecting wall for CM vs opponents CC unit (like TW cavalry, FC SM,...), raveners will be less efficient
I agree that they are interesting as they can attract fire out from MC but either your opponent can decide to deal with them with small arms that are still effective.
2 replies · active 717 weeks ago
Why you spell as STEALAR? Why you so dahmb?!!?

In all seriousness though, I agree on most of your points. I would argue though that Raveners are much harder to kill with anti-infantry shooting, which is irritatingly effective against stealers.
JEAN STEALAR MAYGUS
Raveners have their models going for them over the Genestealers, plus the S8 weapon saturation. Those extra inch charge range rarely comes into play as infiltrate makes Stealers almost as fast were it counts (the first couple of turns).

I have a list with 20 and 10 naked Stealers plus 6 Raveners with rending claws. Raveners just fail on too many levels. Played against Space Wolves yesterday - kept Raveners alive with help from a Prime who joined them - then they pounced on a Rhino but failed to connect and do enough damage with 25 attacks, hitting on 6's. Which meant the Rhino could tank shock through them and leave them in the open were they were Longfanged to death.
Plus they need to be baby-sat with Synapse.

The Longfangs were safe from Raveners, standing on the 2nd level of a ruin, overlooking screening units. No wonder NOVA Open is careful with multi-level ruins on the tables.
3 replies · active 717 weeks ago
Interesting... I thought that would have been some really unlucky rolling... but 30 attacks give just one rend on average when needing 6s to hit. One pen is not great and the addition of adrenal glands would only give you one glance and one pen in avg. :(

Genestealers however, fair no better with their 36 attacks, so it's fail all round really.
Relying on mass rending hits to pen tanks is a horrible idea and this is not a fault of the unit but how you're trying to use it. It's like firing rapid fire bolters at the rear armour of a rhino because you could in theory pen on a 6.

It's still a stupid idea.

No wonder Ravaners underwhelm you when you use them badly.
25 attacks, one dud had bought it from a missile before.

I wasn't 'relying on' Raveners destroying a Rhino, but I was HOPING for at least an immobilized result. Hive Guards can't be everywhere you know. If there are no other targets available, jumping a Rhino is not a 'bad use' of Raveners with Rending Claws. I was trying out a horde build.
I love both.

I think the important part about the Ravs is they need support. As has been stated previously, they help with str8 weapon saturation. An important part of this is you need that T6 creature you're trying to defend by your side as you're advancing, otherwise priority becomes easy. Equally, the presence of genestealers helps with AP5 weapon saturation and it's nice that both creatures are fast. Hence why my list will have both alongside Trygons.
I like genestealers more. We can get them in Battleforce set along with crucial gants and warriors, while we have to buy raveners separately. Besides, considering most opponents are marines or pseudo-marines, re-roll on rending and wound roll seems much reliable than scything talons. Oh yes, genestealers can get scything talons too! So that makes me to prefer stealers over raveners.

Ps:Ravener's Ld is not impressive, of course, their instinctive behavior is feed. So they will go and eat anyone nearby anyway. which is what we want from them. But still, ability to get control outside of synapse is a big advantage...

PPs: I think lack of assault grenade is the biggest fail in this Failure-nids codex. Along with 'existence' of Pyrovore in codex and fincast lineups. Who have been buying these? I bet Doom of Maln'tai finecast model will sell better than that! (Yeah, DoM isn't that great, but people around me consider it as a ultimate infantry crusher, so they will be tricked in to buying it)
2 replies · active 717 weeks ago
Talons on stealers are a waste of points. Keep them with sacs and leave it at that to keep them cheap yet powerful.
true. 10 point for re-roll on one is waste of point. But I wrote that to show that ravener's scything talon cannot be advantage over stealers. well, raveners come with it so I think I made some mistake
The Machine God's avatar

The Machine God · 717 weeks ago

I run both.
And I know it's not as effective all around but I like to run glands on my stealers sometimes so they can open up tanks a bit more. It's ussualy because I run less MC in my list so a bit more anti armour CC punch is needed.
dont forget Raveners can deep strike if needed.
also, genestealers dont need synapse, but raveners do, and have low LD iirc
What's with the lack of comment on the Ravener's shooting abilities? Or analysis of their synergy with other units?

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