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Friday, September 30, 2011

Counterpoint: Non-spamming 40k lists


This is perhaps one of the hottest and must hate-fuelling debate with out little hobby. In simple terms you have the WAAC douchebags who are ruining the hobby (aka the hyper competitive players who may or may not actually be WAAC douchebags) running and promoting spam lists and on the other hand you have the every fluffy morons who believe repeating a single unit is a blasphemy and would never actually happen in real life (aka the casual players who may not actually be fluffy morons). Got to love it when people impose their restrictions upon you :P.

Anyway comical understanding of the two extreme sides of 40k aside, there are generally two distinct build categories - full on spam where nothing is a singular and everything is repeated and rainbow/battleforce armies where you've got a little bit of everything. These are very broad strokes so let's not nitpickle. Ironically a lot of people fall somewhere bang in the middle as a compromise between pure optimisation and personal feel. What this post is going to look at is the key concepts of both sides of the argument and then look at making a Rainbow army which is actually semi-decent on the tabletop by applying good list building skills.



Personally full-on spam armies are very restrictive and whilst they offer the height of optimisation in terms of whatever that list is trying to do (i.e. old Immo-spam, RazorKnights, RazorWolves, Flamestorm BA, etc.), they are generally gaining that optimisation at the cost of something on the battlefield (i.e. ranged or combat prowess). They do present your opponent with target priority issues, have redundancy to the hilt and are certainly good lists but aren't as 1, 2, 3 LIST and then point and click as people like to make out and rarely will you actually see such lists (i.e. people commonly like to call Hybrid Wolves RazorWolves when there are generally 3-5 Razorbacks).

On the other hand, Rainbow or Battleforce armies are often unfocused, have minimal redundancy and are often literally whatever a person has available to them or what they like. Nothing wrong with this what so ever, unless you think it's competitive and try to tell people so. That being said, can one make a decently competitive list without spamming? I know some people such as BroLo hate any sort of spam for some odd aesthetic reason (I ask him to do every medical procedure different, let's see how he likes that!) so let's see if we can't make a list which is decently competitive without any replications. This is possible outside of spamming because we know certain units fulfil similar roles - spamming is not the only way of redundancy. For example, if I wanted medium to high strength long ranged firepower from a Marine list I have a lot of options. Devastators with Missile Launchers, Land Speeder Typhoons, Rifledreads or Razorbacks are all great options which provide this. If I took one of each I've got four ranged units each with a different set of advantages and disadvantages. I still have the ability to reach out and hurt four different targets a turn but each unit is going to be a little better or a little worse depending upon the situation. Doing this stops me from gaining maximum efficiency in certain situations but also stops my army 'falling off a cliff' when it comes up against it's weakness.

This is a major principle of good list design and if you take it just a bit further and allow yourself to replicate something twice (i.e. 2x Rifledreads) whilst still covering your redundancy with other units, you'll get an army list which is flexible but has excellent redundancy. This can be one of the issues spamming lists have - they lose a bit of flexibility. Rainbow lists on the other hand generally don't have that redundancy built into their list and opposing forces can pick out what is most dangerous to them and then walk all over it.

Even with this principle in mind, you cannot simply grab four of these units with similar roles, four of these units with similar roles and four of these units with similar roles - I have an army! This is bad list building and often what you see in such Rainbow/Battleforce armies. Whilst you don't HAVE to spam to get redundancy, you cannot just willy nilly pick out units and put them into an army. There needs to be some sort of cohesion and army 'theme.' Are you going for shooting, midfield or assault based? And what units are you going to use to cover your weaknesses in other areas? These are all important questions you have to ask and when you take duplicates of units, are easier to do as you can use certain Force Organisation Charts for specific tasks (i.e. Grey Knights use Heavy Support to field ranged firepower to support their midfield units).

So let's put this all together and see if we cannot make an effective Rainbow list with no duplications. It's not going to be hyper competitive but it is an excellent exercise in ensuring you have good list building principles without using what some would call the crutch of spamming. I'm going to post the list I have in mind and then we shall discuss it.

Master of the Forge w/Conversion Beamer
Dreadnought w/2x Twin-linked Autocannons
Dreadnought w/twin-linked Lascannon, Missile Launcher
5x Scouts w/Camo Cloaks, Missile Launcher
10x Tacticals w/Missile Launcher, meltagun, combi-melta, LasPlas Razorback
5x Tacticals w/combi-melta, LasPlas Razorback
10x Tacticals w/MM, meltagun, combi-melta, Rhino
2x Land Speeder Typhoons
2x MM/HF Land Speeders
Predator w/Lascannon sponsons
Predator w/Heavy Bolter sponsons
5x Devastators w/4x Missile Launchers, Rhino

1955 points
36 infantry, 12 vehicles


There are some obvious changes we could make if we were looking for a fully competitive list. Change the ACLC Pred back to a Dakka Pred. Change the TLLC/ML Dread back to a Rifledread. Buy a 3rd Rifledread with points saved. Split one of the Speeder squads up. Change the MM to a ML on the 2nd Tactical squad (allowing the 2 ML halves to combat squad, the LasPlas RBacks stay back and shoot, the melta units into the Rhinos). Suddenly with a few duplications we have a much more refined list - still not what many would say is top-notch 100% competitive but quite a good list which covers all the basics. Let's look at that here.

We've got a lot of shooting. Two Dreads, two preds, one combat squad of Marines, two Razorbacks, Devastators, Typhoons and Scouts + MotF. Each of these units has a mildly different role but with some overlap. All the missile based squads can shoot at both tanks and infantry and vary from static (combat squad, Devs, Scouts + MotF) to mobile (Typhoons) with some scoring thrown in (combat squad, Scouts). Some are simply good at dropping transports (Rifledread) whilst others can drop heavier tanks and hurt heavy infantry (ACLC Pred, LasPlas). We also have units which can really generate a lot of wounds on infantry and have some minor duality against tanks (Dakka Pred, Scouts + MotF). We have some aggressive units with the MM/HF Speeders and melta Bunkers both of which can move forward and aggressively engage tanks and weaker infantry. There are still 12 vehicles in the list and a little low on 36 infantry but backed up by Marine statlines. The list however lacks in the combat department and is generally inefficient. The changes suggested above increase the efficiency of the list and allow a combat unit to be bought (TH/SS + Gate Libby instead of 3rd Rifledread + MotF).

In the end what we see is a not too bad list. If this was sent in to 3++ or seen on the battlefield and the opponent asked for tips, only a relative few changes would generally be recommended. This is very different from a battleforce army where nothing fits together and it quite literally is an army built from battleforces (and GW's battleforces are generally crap for actual playing on the tabletop). I think what this shows is with a bit of thinking you can make a no duplicates at all list work but if you give yourself some flexibility to take some replications, you'll find lists find that balance between optimised spam lists and terrible rainbow lists. This is where the vast majority of successful tournament lists fall as generals compromise between the two sides of the coin and fit the army list to their style of play.

Comments (34)

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I do not care for spam. I think the spamming mainly comes from the attempt to point optimize armies for the current meta. I see you do it to make the list optimally competitive where variation in armaments are eliminated. All razorbacks are las-plas since that is underpriced probably 10-15 points, then all predators are dakka, all dreads are rifleman, only missile launcher devastators since you hardly see armors above 12 on the table (maybe 1 unit a game) but will see like 8 units with 11 or 12 armor.
3 replies · active 705 weeks ago
I revise my comment that I might not mind spamming as much if people would spam different units but it just seems like most of these lists seem the same in general. Razorbacks, Dreads, Long Fangs. Reminds me of the ETC nid lists where essentially everyone had 75% the same army and more than half the codex did not appear in any list. I can only blame GW for their codex writing. Seems like each section(other than troops which often is 2-3) has like 5 choices but only 2 really appear commonly. No unit should not be playable in a competitive environment. People say that list writing is part of the game which I agree with but the points are there such that units are supposed to be balanced. Writing a list should be about get you units to work well together in your theme not about first eliminating half the codex then building an army.
Generally "spam" lists are using one efficient combination/unit and leaning on it to pull a lot of the army's weight, so it really shouldn't be surprising that you usually see the same couple options form each codex in this way- only a very limited number of units can pull this off, and of those units only an even smaller fraction will be good enough to be worthwhile doing it with.

>Writing a list should be about get you units to work well together in your theme not about first eliminating half the codex then building an army.
While I agree, I think you're making an error in thinking this is how list-building works. Some codices (like DE) contain virtually no "dead" units, but you STILL won't see all of them in a single list because not all of them work together effectively. List-building means picking a strategy for your army, and doing that usually means at least some units will be subpar for your army, even if there's nothing wrong with the units inherently. You aren't "eliminating half the codex," you're figuring out what works in a particular build and what doesn't.

With regards to Tyranids, their armies are virtually all the same because the codex was poorly designed. Blame Mr. Cruddace for that, not the Tyranid players; there is a very limited selection to work with in there, because you need to win by assaulting and you can't assault until things are out of their transports and you can't get them out of their transports without Hive Guard. Add in the fact that Tervigons are basically your only effective solution to many problems (like strong assault units, etc) and you have a good 70% of your points accounted for right there.
You will note that I did blame GW for it. I really do not expect an army to have every possible unit since an army must try to do something better than its opponents if it expects to win

It would really be interesting to see someone do a real analysis of this. Take a set of lists from an event like Nova Open and find out the probabilities of certain units appearing and the correlation between units. The problem though is that the lists are not in an easy to process digitial form where it could be automated. Just doing 10-20 lists from one codex would probably take a few hours even with a broad comb not down to complete unit configurations.
people never seem to take money into account either. guys at my local gaming club keep telling me my space marine army "needs more razorbacks, you only have two"
oh, really? where the bloody hell am i going to get the money for more razorbacks from, mr genius wargamer? and when i acutally do have money i can spend on my hobby, id rather spend it on something interesting, not four identical boxes with gun turrets
ANYWAY this is a nice article. i myself prefer a few odd things in my army lists, things whos points might be better spent on more competitive, duplicate choices, but meh, its not like i play in a tournament every time i go to the club
2 replies · active 705 weeks ago
You don't need vehicle spam to win, it just helps certain books. Many winning armies only have around 4 or 5 vehicles just like you.
Real military spams regular troops and tanks as well. Lists that completely avoid spamming are therefore not necessarily more fluffy but tend to look like a thrown-together warband (which again might or might not be fluffy) and not like a proper military unit.
8 replies · active 704 weeks ago
Real armies also fight battles with the armies they have not the armies they want. Remember that 40K is not a battle game it is at best a large fire fight. Most armies have what like 40 infantry models so we are at sub company levels. Every platoon is not accompanied by multiple full battle tanks. Every space marine strike force should not be fielding more dreadnoughts than the Ultramarine Full 2nd Company have assigned to them.

I think the razorback spam would make a little more sense if the rules required a unit to fit in its dedicated transport. You could still spam them but you pay the price of lost heavy and assault weapons and you would have a unit that makes sense in a military structure.
If units had to fit inside their transports, Combat Squads would be kind of a stupid rule. DE have to do it, though, so take heart in that I guess.

I don't really think applying modern standards of armament and support to Marines is very useful; forty Marines is a much, MUCH larger force than forty regular dudes. In fact, forty Marines is a pretty damn strong strike force- that's more on the order of something you'd use to clear a continent than "quick, capture that outpost over there."

Marine fluff also dictates that, at least according to the Codex Astartes, every single squad has a transport. All of them. Maybe you aren't riding in it at a given moment, but there is at least one Rhino/Razorback for every 10man squad in the company. The fact that some people like representing this shouldn't really be held against them.
You have a point about applying modern military standards to Space Marines, even if the principles involved are the ones distilled from history, but the concept of "Codex Marines" does use similar standards. As far as it goes, 40k fluff and 40k game are two different beasts with a tenuous link between them. As someone pointed out, if you want to see real fluffy Space Marines in action, then set up a squad of Marines and use Dark Heresy rules to resolve the firefight.
Roland Durendal's avatar

Roland Durendal · 705 weeks ago

Actually your slightly off in your real world military doctrine. A Mech Infantry Platoon mounted in Bradley's would have only 40 men and would have 4 Bradleys (I use Bradleys b/c: a). I work with them on the regular and b). if you look at a Brad it's a modern day Razorback - dual weapon system with a 6-7 man troop carrying capacity). So really when we see lists with like 40 dudes and 4 RBacks, it's fairly accurate to a modern Mech Infantry Platoon. When you see 40 dudes and 8 RBacks, it begins to stretch it a bit, but it could be logically argued as a reinforced Mech Infantry platoon - the reinforcing platoons Soldiers just haven't arrived yet (they're legging it) but their vehicles have.
LukeLicens's avatar

LukeLicens · 705 weeks ago

Ah yes the Bradley Fighting Vehicle.

"A troop transport that can't carry troops, a reconnaissance vehicle that's too conspicuous to do reconnaissance, and a quasi-tank that has less armor than a snowblower, but carries enough ammo to take out half of D.C."

I love that film. (And yes, I'm aware that the modern Bradley is much refined from it's hollywood counterpart, before the vets jump all over me. They've had 13 years to address it.)
What movie is that from?
The Pentagon Wars
Yep. I don't understand what spamming has to do with fluff. If anything, it spamming would be realistic and fluffy because it would be so much easier for a general to manage and support troops with similar equipment than try to coordinate logistics for a rainbow battleforce army.
I tend to think repetition of function in an optimal way is relatively key. Not every codex forces spam on you ... some force it on you in illegal-otherwise ways (Necrons). Opposing spam simply for the sake of it is senseless to the fluff, and senseless for the game system ... play a different game system.

That said, spamming for the sake of it can ALSO be very bad. Healthy middle ground, like on almost anything else in life and wargaming. It most frustrates me when people completely fail at using imagination, conversion, and painting to create variety among same or similar units, then complain about the notion of taking same or similar units. I respect people with open minds and wide imaginations ... I generally dislike the presence/company of those with no imagination and closed minds. Those who refuse to repeat a unit twice no matter what, and at the same time simply paint and model their models as "stock" are much more the closed minded imagination-less sort than they are the fluffy creative types they imagine themselves to be. Oh look, a pun.
2 replies · active 705 weeks ago
<3 . Healthy middle ground - the aim of so much :) .
Modeling creativity trumps list creativity...

Some duplication is more reliable than no duplication or all duplication.
Every medical procedure is different derp. You have a plan of what needs to be done in a rough order, but individual bodies keep you guessing. Silly! Ask a surgeon if two procedures have ever been the same. Some are boringly similar, but never spammed. I mean the same.

I personally don't mind spam a huge amount. There are limits. '6 x A + Transport B' Is kinda dull. It's more about imagination and the spectacle of playing. If somebody has a heavily converted 'spammed' list, I wouldn't care. Somebody that paints an army as quick as possible with no list building or creative flare, then it's boring for me to play. The tactical element will be fun, but that's 1/3 of the hobby. I don't play football to solely play in games. Training and socialising with team mates are all important parts.

Along the lines of what Mike says... Life is all about everything in moderation and variation.

I like the list. It's fun. The thing is, there's no obvious target. The Devs and dreads will probably see a good amount of fire early on, but with such an eclectic mix, I'm not sure.
2 replies · active 705 weeks ago
You are so easy to rile =D.
Stop trolling BroLo so he can go back to ridiculing comp.
The list you made looks like it would be really fun to play against with my Tau army...I would feel like whoever won simply outsmarted the other. It gets sort of old losing games to giant, pimply socially inept morons who think they are smart yet are failing out of all of their classes, don't have jobs and can't even find time to paint their minitures...they just pluck some list off the internet and go with it. Maybe I'm making up excuses but when I play someone like that and lose I don't feel like they played better than me really...and the worst thing is I don't feel like I learned anything except: "Never play that list/army/person again". In fact whenever I play someone like that with an internet spam list, win or lose, I just feel that I've wasted my time and money on a hobby dominated by douches. Good article!
3 replies · active 705 weeks ago
As one Shas'El to another, please get off your high gnarlock. If kids who are failing out of their classes and can't be bothered to paint their miniatures are kicking your cadre up one side of the table and down the other, it's pretty much down to you. Our codex may not be top of the line, but it contains the means to deal with pretty much any spam list; in particular, the emphasis on mech spam means your obligatory two squads of 88s should have targets for days, while your Deathrains and Firekinves go infantry hunting and your own mech blocks their movement. The only thing I've ever found to be so challenging as to be nearly unbeatable are armies full of jump pack-wearing Blood Angels with FNP and power weapons. And even then, well, it's one style of army out of a few dozen; so what if the odd game ends up with me playing flimsy paper to a rather dense bit of rock?
There's nothing wrong with failing to enjoy a game.

There is something wrong with trying to play up your use of an old codex and painted minis as something that makes you superior to other people.
OOps! Not how that post was supposed to come off! You guys are right of course, a game is a game and I just have to pick those I play with more carefully!
RocketRollRebel's avatar

RocketRollRebel · 705 weeks ago

I've been doing this with my Guard a lot lately and its been a lot of fun. A nice change of pace from throwing down a stupid amount of chimeras to only 2!
There are some tactics which only really work through "spam". I run an ork kan wall frequently, with 6 grotzooka kans and 3 rokkit kans backed up with 2 KFF meks and as many boys as i can cram in, which could be viewed as spam, but i feel my list is balenced out by its flaws. Yeah its really hard to do enough damage to it, but its very vunerable to fast flanking units with flamers, and armies that split up forcing me to break my formation.Spam is a part of the game, and its often the key to succesful builds.
Hell even the infamous long fang spam has its weaknesses- they are just marines- focus your firepower on them, and try and make them take a pining check
some spam is okay, just don't take the WIN AT ALL COSTS approach. Its a hobby and meant to be fun.
carldooley's avatar

carldooley · 705 weeks ago

Tomorrow, myself and a bunch of buddies are getting together to play a 1.5k fragfest (4+ of us on a 4'x8' table). I'm spamming some things (ML HWS) - I DO get tired of my buddies bragging that his Space wolves can field XX missile launchers; look at what I can do with one Troop FOC! And next week, I'll probably field something different. . .

Keep in mind that even with spam there can be synergy. I'm taking 4 HWS because I'm fielding Creed. And to ensure order delivery, I decided to field Kell as well. For true long range fire, I included a trio of hydras in the list, and if my opponent tries to close a Demolisher.

It'll take some target priority or an alliance to take my firebase apart, we'll see what happens tomorrow.
1 reply · active 705 weeks ago
carldooley's avatar

carldooley · 705 weeks ago

Oh, I HATE deathwing. Talk about spamming units - 6 5 man Thunder Hammer & Storm Shield Terminator Squads with a Typhoon Missile Launcher in each squad. At least it was objectives, and I won by holding one and contesting the other three. :)
I think it's really the mark of a well-written Dex that you can cover all your bases and have redundancy in every Role without having to just lean on repetition of a single Unit or a couple of Units. Other than the Nid Dex, I think all the 5th Ed Dexes can do this at least pretty well , but Guard would get my nod for being best at it.
2 replies · active 705 weeks ago
DE are also very good in that respect.
I'll take your word for it. I've only gotten to play against them once because they're not a very common Army around here.

Which is unfortunate because, despite the bad matchup (Assault Nids vs. Mech DE), that one Game was a whole lot of fun. I always want to see more Xenos around anyhow.
I am tired of players bad mouthing each others lists for any and all reasons. Constructive criticism is fine when appropriate, but I see a lot of bitching on forums and blogs.

Open letter time:
Guess what, someone else chose their own army, not you. Did you ask all your future opponents for their approval for your list? No, you didn't. Let people have their own army, just as you expect others to be okay with what you bring. Each player puts in the time and money to bring it to the table. Talking shit is rude. If it's not your favorite army list, well you have your own armies to field don't you?

Backstory can be used to justify almost any combination of forces. Every legal list has GW's stamp of approval because they made the codices. The snobbery I see is similar to rival fans debating religion, politics, or sports teams. Everyone is subjective.

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