Anyway comical understanding of the two extreme sides of 40k aside, there are generally two distinct build categories - full on spam where nothing is a singular and everything is repeated and rainbow/battleforce armies where you've got a little bit of everything. These are very broad strokes so let's not nitpickle. Ironically a lot of people fall somewhere bang in the middle as a compromise between pure optimisation and personal feel. What this post is going to look at is the key concepts of both sides of the argument and then look at making a Rainbow army which is actually semi-decent on the tabletop by applying good list building skills.
Personally full-on spam armies are very restrictive and whilst they offer the height of optimisation in terms of whatever that list is trying to do (i.e. old Immo-spam, RazorKnights, RazorWolves, Flamestorm BA, etc.), they are generally gaining that optimisation at the cost of something on the battlefield (i.e. ranged or combat prowess). They do present your opponent with target priority issues, have redundancy to the hilt and are certainly good lists but aren't as 1, 2, 3 LIST and then point and click as people like to make out and rarely will you actually see such lists (i.e. people commonly like to call Hybrid Wolves RazorWolves when there are generally 3-5 Razorbacks).
On the other hand, Rainbow or Battleforce armies are often unfocused, have minimal redundancy and are often literally whatever a person has available to them or what they like. Nothing wrong with this what so ever, unless you think it's competitive and try to tell people so. That being said, can one make a decently competitive list without spamming? I know some people such as BroLo hate any sort of spam for some odd aesthetic reason (I ask him to do every medical procedure different, let's see how he likes that!) so let's see if we can't make a list which is decently competitive without any replications. This is possible outside of spamming because we know certain units fulfil similar roles - spamming is not the only way of redundancy. For example, if I wanted medium to high strength long ranged firepower from a Marine list I have a lot of options. Devastators with Missile Launchers, Land Speeder Typhoons, Rifledreads or Razorbacks are all great options which provide this. If I took one of each I've got four ranged units each with a different set of advantages and disadvantages. I still have the ability to reach out and hurt four different targets a turn but each unit is going to be a little better or a little worse depending upon the situation. Doing this stops me from gaining maximum efficiency in certain situations but also stops my army 'falling off a cliff' when it comes up against it's weakness.
This is a major principle of good list design and if you take it just a bit further and allow yourself to replicate something twice (i.e. 2x Rifledreads) whilst still covering your redundancy with other units, you'll get an army list which is flexible but has excellent redundancy. This can be one of the issues spamming lists have - they lose a bit of flexibility. Rainbow lists on the other hand generally don't have that redundancy built into their list and opposing forces can pick out what is most dangerous to them and then walk all over it.
Even with this principle in mind, you cannot simply grab four of these units with similar roles, four of these units with similar roles and four of these units with similar roles - I have an army! This is bad list building and often what you see in such Rainbow/Battleforce armies. Whilst you don't HAVE to spam to get redundancy, you cannot just willy nilly pick out units and put them into an army. There needs to be some sort of cohesion and army 'theme.' Are you going for shooting, midfield or assault based? And what units are you going to use to cover your weaknesses in other areas? These are all important questions you have to ask and when you take duplicates of units, are easier to do as you can use certain Force Organisation Charts for specific tasks (i.e. Grey Knights use Heavy Support to field ranged firepower to support their midfield units).
So let's put this all together and see if we cannot make an effective Rainbow list with no duplications. It's not going to be hyper competitive but it is an excellent exercise in ensuring you have good list building principles without using what some would call the crutch of spamming. I'm going to post the list I have in mind and then we shall discuss it.
Master of the Forge w/Conversion Beamer
Dreadnought w/2x Twin-linked Autocannons
Dreadnought w/twin-linked Lascannon, Missile Launcher
5x Scouts w/Camo Cloaks, Missile Launcher
10x Tacticals w/Missile Launcher, meltagun, combi-melta, LasPlas Razorback
5x Tacticals w/combi-melta, LasPlas Razorback
10x Tacticals w/MM, meltagun, combi-melta, Rhino
2x Land Speeder Typhoons
2x MM/HF Land Speeders
Predator w/Lascannon sponsons
Predator w/Heavy Bolter sponsons
5x Devastators w/4x Missile Launchers, Rhino
1955 points
36 infantry, 12 vehicles
There are some obvious changes we could make if we were looking for a fully competitive list. Change the ACLC Pred back to a Dakka Pred. Change the TLLC/ML Dread back to a Rifledread. Buy a 3rd Rifledread with points saved. Split one of the Speeder squads up. Change the MM to a ML on the 2nd Tactical squad (allowing the 2 ML halves to combat squad, the LasPlas RBacks stay back and shoot, the melta units into the Rhinos). Suddenly with a few duplications we have a much more refined list - still not what many would say is top-notch 100% competitive but quite a good list which covers all the basics. Let's look at that here.
We've got a lot of shooting. Two Dreads, two preds, one combat squad of Marines, two Razorbacks, Devastators, Typhoons and Scouts + MotF. Each of these units has a mildly different role but with some overlap. All the missile based squads can shoot at both tanks and infantry and vary from static (combat squad, Devs, Scouts + MotF) to mobile (Typhoons) with some scoring thrown in (combat squad, Scouts). Some are simply good at dropping transports (Rifledread) whilst others can drop heavier tanks and hurt heavy infantry (ACLC Pred, LasPlas). We also have units which can really generate a lot of wounds on infantry and have some minor duality against tanks (Dakka Pred, Scouts + MotF). We have some aggressive units with the MM/HF Speeders and melta Bunkers both of which can move forward and aggressively engage tanks and weaker infantry. There are still 12 vehicles in the list and a little low on 36 infantry but backed up by Marine statlines. The list however lacks in the combat department and is generally inefficient. The changes suggested above increase the efficiency of the list and allow a combat unit to be bought (TH/SS + Gate Libby instead of 3rd Rifledread + MotF).
In the end what we see is a not too bad list. If this was sent in to 3++ or seen on the battlefield and the opponent asked for tips, only a relative few changes would generally be recommended. This is very different from a battleforce army where nothing fits together and it quite literally is an army built from battleforces (and GW's battleforces are generally crap for actual playing on the tabletop). I think what this shows is with a bit of thinking you can make a no duplicates at all list work but if you give yourself some flexibility to take some replications, you'll find lists find that balance between optimised spam lists and terrible rainbow lists. This is where the vast majority of successful tournament lists fall as generals compromise between the two sides of the coin and fit the army list to their style of play.
eriochrome · 705 weeks ago
eriochrome · 705 weeks ago
abusepuppy 121p · 705 weeks ago
>Writing a list should be about get you units to work well together in your theme not about first eliminating half the codex then building an army.
While I agree, I think you're making an error in thinking this is how list-building works. Some codices (like DE) contain virtually no "dead" units, but you STILL won't see all of them in a single list because not all of them work together effectively. List-building means picking a strategy for your army, and doing that usually means at least some units will be subpar for your army, even if there's nothing wrong with the units inherently. You aren't "eliminating half the codex," you're figuring out what works in a particular build and what doesn't.
With regards to Tyranids, their armies are virtually all the same because the codex was poorly designed. Blame Mr. Cruddace for that, not the Tyranid players; there is a very limited selection to work with in there, because you need to win by assaulting and you can't assault until things are out of their transports and you can't get them out of their transports without Hive Guard. Add in the fact that Tervigons are basically your only effective solution to many problems (like strong assault units, etc) and you have a good 70% of your points accounted for right there.
eriochrome · 705 weeks ago
It would really be interesting to see someone do a real analysis of this. Take a set of lists from an event like Nova Open and find out the probabilities of certain units appearing and the correlation between units. The problem though is that the lists are not in an easy to process digitial form where it could be automated. Just doing 10-20 lists from one codex would probably take a few hours even with a broad comb not down to complete unit configurations.
Scuzgob 96p · 705 weeks ago
oh, really? where the bloody hell am i going to get the money for more razorbacks from, mr genius wargamer? and when i acutally do have money i can spend on my hobby, id rather spend it on something interesting, not four identical boxes with gun turrets
ANYWAY this is a nice article. i myself prefer a few odd things in my army lists, things whos points might be better spent on more competitive, duplicate choices, but meh, its not like i play in a tournament every time i go to the club
@ianlogsdon · 705 weeks ago
Once I get my Deathwing finished, at least I'll have options, even if they aren't perfect.
chaosgerbil 48p · 705 weeks ago
Lucius · 705 weeks ago
eriochrome · 705 weeks ago
I think the razorback spam would make a little more sense if the rules required a unit to fit in its dedicated transport. You could still spam them but you pay the price of lost heavy and assault weapons and you would have a unit that makes sense in a military structure.
abusepuppy 121p · 705 weeks ago
I don't really think applying modern standards of armament and support to Marines is very useful; forty Marines is a much, MUCH larger force than forty regular dudes. In fact, forty Marines is a pretty damn strong strike force- that's more on the order of something you'd use to clear a continent than "quick, capture that outpost over there."
Marine fluff also dictates that, at least according to the Codex Astartes, every single squad has a transport. All of them. Maybe you aren't riding in it at a given moment, but there is at least one Rhino/Razorback for every 10man squad in the company. The fact that some people like representing this shouldn't really be held against them.
algesan · 705 weeks ago
Roland Durendal · 705 weeks ago
LukeLicens · 705 weeks ago
"A troop transport that can't carry troops, a reconnaissance vehicle that's too conspicuous to do reconnaissance, and a quasi-tank that has less armor than a snowblower, but carries enough ammo to take out half of D.C."
I love that film. (And yes, I'm aware that the modern Bradley is much refined from it's hollywood counterpart, before the vets jump all over me. They've had 13 years to address it.)
Desc440 · 705 weeks ago
ItsPug · 704 weeks ago
zhandao 26p · 704 weeks ago
MVB · 705 weeks ago
That said, spamming for the sake of it can ALSO be very bad. Healthy middle ground, like on almost anything else in life and wargaming. It most frustrates me when people completely fail at using imagination, conversion, and painting to create variety among same or similar units, then complain about the notion of taking same or similar units. I respect people with open minds and wide imaginations ... I generally dislike the presence/company of those with no imagination and closed minds. Those who refuse to repeat a unit twice no matter what, and at the same time simply paint and model their models as "stock" are much more the closed minded imagination-less sort than they are the fluffy creative types they imagine themselves to be. Oh look, a pun.
Kirby 118p · 705 weeks ago
chaosgerbil 48p · 705 weeks ago
Some duplication is more reliable than no duplication or all duplication.
Bro_Lo 82p · 705 weeks ago
I personally don't mind spam a huge amount. There are limits. '6 x A + Transport B' Is kinda dull. It's more about imagination and the spectacle of playing. If somebody has a heavily converted 'spammed' list, I wouldn't care. Somebody that paints an army as quick as possible with no list building or creative flare, then it's boring for me to play. The tactical element will be fun, but that's 1/3 of the hobby. I don't play football to solely play in games. Training and socialising with team mates are all important parts.
Along the lines of what Mike says... Life is all about everything in moderation and variation.
I like the list. It's fun. The thing is, there's no obvious target. The Devs and dreads will probably see a good amount of fire early on, but with such an eclectic mix, I'm not sure.
Kirby 118p · 705 weeks ago
chaosgerbil 48p · 705 weeks ago
yazchar 62p · 705 weeks ago
Garnet · 705 weeks ago
abusepuppy 121p · 705 weeks ago
There is something wrong with trying to play up your use of an old codex and painted minis as something that makes you superior to other people.
yazchar 62p · 705 weeks ago
RocketRollRebel · 705 weeks ago
will · 705 weeks ago
Hell even the infamous long fang spam has its weaknesses- they are just marines- focus your firepower on them, and try and make them take a pining check
some spam is okay, just don't take the WIN AT ALL COSTS approach. Its a hobby and meant to be fun.
carldooley · 705 weeks ago
Keep in mind that even with spam there can be synergy. I'm taking 4 HWS because I'm fielding Creed. And to ensure order delivery, I decided to field Kell as well. For true long range fire, I included a trio of hydras in the list, and if my opponent tries to close a Demolisher.
It'll take some target priority or an alliance to take my firebase apart, we'll see what happens tomorrow.
carldooley · 705 weeks ago
WestRider · 705 weeks ago
abusepuppy 121p · 705 weeks ago
WestRider · 705 weeks ago
Which is unfortunate because, despite the bad matchup (Assault Nids vs. Mech DE), that one Game was a whole lot of fun. I always want to see more Xenos around anyhow.
chaosgerbil 48p · 705 weeks ago
Open letter time:
Guess what, someone else chose their own army, not you. Did you ask all your future opponents for their approval for your list? No, you didn't. Let people have their own army, just as you expect others to be okay with what you bring. Each player puts in the time and money to bring it to the table. Talking shit is rude. If it's not your favorite army list, well you have your own armies to field don't you?
Backstory can be used to justify almost any combination of forces. Every legal list has GW's stamp of approval because they made the codices. The snobbery I see is similar to rival fans debating religion, politics, or sports teams. Everyone is subjective.