"Hey Kirby,
I've done a lot of thinking, finagling, and adjusting to my Steel Legion over the past year and I think I've finally settled on something I am quite happy with. That said, I wanted to send it to you to critique and evaluate, as I feel that there's a lot of valuable feedback that can be had from discussing it.
Without further ado, here's the list:
HQ
Company Command Squad w/ Colonel "Iron Hand" Straken, Medi-Pack, Regimental Standard, 2xMeltaguns, 2xBodyguards, Astropath - in Chimera w/ Hull Heavy Flamer (325)
Troops
Platoon Command Squad w/ 3xMeltaguns, Platoon Commander w/Meltabombs, Guardsman w/ Laspistol - in Chimera w/ Hull Heavy Flamer (120)
Infantry Squad w/ Meltagun - in Chimera w/ Hull Heavy Flamer (115)
Infantry Squad w/ Meltagun - in Chimera w/ Hull Heavy Flamer (115)
Veteran Squad w/ 3xMeltaguns, 6xShotguns, Demolitions - in Chimera w/ Hull Heavy Flamer (185)
Veteran Squad w/ 3xMeltaguns, 6xShotguns - in Chimera w/ Hull Heavy Flamer (155)
Veteran Squad w/ 3xMeltaguns, 6xShotguns - in Chimera w/ Hull Heavy Flamer (155)
Heavy Support
Leman Russ Exterminator w/ Plasma Cannon Sponsons (& Hull Heavy Bolter) (190)
Leman Russ Exterminator w/ Plasma Cannon Sponsons (& Hull Heavy Bolter) (190)
Leman Russ Exterminator w/ Plasma Cannon Sponsons (& Hull Heavy Bolter) (190)
Fast Attack
Vendetta Gunship (130)
Vendetta Gunship (130)
It's got almost all the tools I think I need to make a good showing against pretty much anything. Straken makes me competent in melee, I have outflank potential with the Vendettas, and I have plenty of troops to fall back on in case I need to suicide any.
I'd say the Heavy Support is probably where I'm most flexible, as there really isn't a "best" option. 3xLeman Russ is incredibly difficult to deal with and they usually fire all game long, but their firepower is only "adequate" against most targets. I was considering dropping an Exterminator for a Manticore Rocket Launcher, to give me some extra bite against AV14 at range, as well as at least 1 source of S10 and indirect fire. That saves 30 points I thought might be best spent adding Power Fists for the non-demolition Vets for some more "oomph" in assault, especially against small squads.
I'm interested to hear what you think of the list, the potential swap, and any and all suggestions or comments. Have at it, and thanks in advance for your help."
List overall looks quite solid though two main things.
Al'Rahem would be a decent inclusion in your infantry Platoon (though I'd probably bring along another squad or two). It helps advance the Chimeras up the field without clogging lanes and gives your opponent more to worry about. I know MVB uses this to great effect in his Straken list but you'll also want to get more Veterans so you don't have diddly squat on the board to begin with - something you may not want to do but the option is there.
Otherwise the Heavy Support is kinda meh I'm afraid. Whilst Russes are very hard to deal with at range, most armies have some sort of fast/outflank/deepstrike melta or even S10/lances at range which they can hit AV14 with. It's something they have to work around certainly but 12 S7 heavy shots? Not super scary even when you factor in the Plasma Cannons (and you have an aggressive list so bad scatters can spell death to your infantry). I'd much rather see these Russes compressed. I like your idea of taking a Manticore in place of one of them but even replacing the other two with 2x normal Russes with Heavy Bolters would be a great benefit. You can use them to either screen your advance or sit in corners and blast the opponent (though again beware of bad scatters). I just feel if you're really pining for some S7 ranged firepower go Hydras. For 150 points you're getting 8 S7 twin-linked shots and whilst on less durable platforms, that's double the shots for quite a few less points.
Heavy Support can always be a bit of a pain for IG and there really are a lot of options but I think Exterminators are the wrong Russ choice. If you want Plasma go with the Executioner. If you want lots of AV14 tanks go with the standard LRBT, etc. Combine this with Hydras and Manticores as you see fit to cover up army weaknesses.
Logging you in...
SandWyrm · 707 weeks ago
195 - Platoon Command Squad w/Al Rahem, 4 x Melta
115 - Infantry Squad w/Flamer, Melta Bomb, Power Weapon, Commissar (Power Weapon)
70 - Infantry Squad w/Flamer, Melta Bomb, Power Weapon
70 - Infantry Squad w/Flamer, Melta Bomb, Power Weapon
So Al gets a ride, but the blob comes on together as a big mass of "oh crap!". If I were to buy transports for the blob squads, I'd just deploy them normally and run them forward for blocking and interference.
Strakken is kind of marginal in a list like this IMO. Like as not the blob won't come on within his 12" bubble. Which limits him to ordering around dismounted Vet squads. Meh.
The thing I'll say about IG Heavy Support options is: Don't be afraid to just take one or two. There are often better choices to be had elsewhere.
Hate mech · 707 weeks ago
SandWyrm · 707 weeks ago
Behemothh 48p · 707 weeks ago
Frost89 · 707 weeks ago
i hope, at least
WestRider · 707 weeks ago
Actually, anymore I like a Hull Lascannon and Hunter-Killer on my Exterminators to really give them a good Anti-Transport punch during the first Turn, and then after that, they go more multi-Role, cracking more Transports or taking on spread-out Infantry depending on what the need is that Turn.
The Exterminator is only the fourth best Russ variant, but it's still just barely above the Line of Fail in my estimation, as long as you have other options around to cover for the fact that you're burning HS Slots on a Unit that mostly provides more Anti-Transport and Anti-Infantry.
What I wouldn't do is take just one or two Russes and fill the rest out with AV12 hulls. That lets your Opponent focus whatever long-range anti-AV14 Firepower he has on the Russes while the mid-range stuff pounds on the lighter hulls. Classic situation where you're giving a Balanced force a perfect breakdown of Targets to maximize its spread of Weaponry. 3+ Russ hulls or none.
SandWyrm · 707 weeks ago
I don't find Hydras OR Exterminators especially compelling for an army that wants to move. Hydras (when not moving) will beat face for 1-2 turns and then die. Exterminators will put out half the firepower but live twice as long. That's still not quite enough oomph to reliably kill anything besides Rhinos with one though.
I say go with an Executioner instead. You get Marine/MC killing goodness and some decent anti-tank duality as well.
WestRider · 707 weeks ago
And, truth be told, I wasn't all that awake this morning and didn't pay much attention to anything besides the Exterminators. I most often run a Hybrid Guard List, generally deploying in such a way that there are only Infantry in between my Russes and the bulk of my Opponent's force.
Finally, like I said, the Exterminator is just barely above the Line of Fail, and the Demolisher, regular Russ, and Executioner will all do you better. That was just what I do when I really want to use my Exterminators. Which is pretty often, because I rather like the Models.
DKoW · 707 weeks ago
Platoon Command - PF, Commissar (PW) Flamer/Grenade Launcher, Platoon Standard, Medi-pack, and Vox, Chimera (HK) - 210pts
(x5) Infantry - PW, Melta Bombs (i think), Flamer/Grenade Launcher, Vox, Krak Grenades, Chimera (HK) - 150pts
which comes to 960pts, although i do sometimes get rid of the melta bombs and Power weapons depending on what i want to add in elsewhere.
With this i have 6 troop choices on the field from the word go, in transports able to charge down the middle and claim objectives when it suits me. The HKs are only there to supplement my Leman Russes (Standard (no sponsons), Demolisher (no sponsons) and Executioner (plasma sponsons). I do change it from time to time just for fun, but if it came to a tournament i use those 3) adding 6 extra anti-tank firepower......granted they dont really do much good, but its good to know they are there. My second troops choice selection is 1 Vet Squad kitted with Meltaguns and Carapace mounted in a Vendetta......i dont see the point in having 3 Vet squads with meltas in Chimeras. I really dont understand the concept. Vets are suicide squads to me and having them in a Chimera is pointless. You'd have to wait a turn before your in range of anything useful, and by that time the tank could be destroyed and the Vets with it.
But if you want Vets in a Chimera thats your choice....i cant tell you otherwise.
As for the Russes themselves, if you decided to take a standard Russ, i would advice against adding the HB sponsons. They are of little use to you, mostly because you would, and should, equip the Hull Lascannon and wouldnt care to fire the sponsons. And it saves you 20pts which are better spent on the Executioner, or a Vanquisher with Multi-Melta Sponsons (yes its not the best anti-tank unit, but adding the Multi-Meltas does make a difference. At least you can fire 1 useless weapon and one useful weapon when your within 12")
And i have to agree with West Rider.....you need at least 3 Russes, 1 in every slot, to make using Russes viable, but definately not all Exterminators, you need more variety
SandWyrm · 707 weeks ago
That squad should cost 105 points with Grenade Launchers and a Chimera. Or 125 with Meltas. That's it. 210 points is crazy. It's on par with a Marine assault squad in a Rhino. Do you really think you're on par with them after all those upgrades? Do you really think that you're going to win against 210 points of Orks in combat?
Your Infantry squads should cost 70 points max. You're either taking autocannon/grenade launcher for shooting or power weapon/flamer/melta bomb for assault blobs. 125 points max with a Chimera.
As for "needing" at least 3 Russes for them to be viable... Huh? The viability of any individual Russ is not determined by the presence or lack of any other Russ. It's all about roles, and if the ones you need to fill are taken care of, what does it matter how many AV14 bodies you have?
DKoW · 707 weeks ago
As for the infantry, its geared towards handling any situation that arises. The PW, to help the squad in combat, and i am always very likely to charge a unit, even if the squad doesnt stand a chance just in the hope that it will stay in combat for an extra turn. And the Melta bombs and Krak grenades to help pop tanks should i get the chance.
Dont trust autocannons, dont like them, so they are never going into my infantry.
As for Russes. Having 3 of any type on the field is good, because they do their one and on job on the table. The bullet magnet. I've played so many games with my list and everyone focuses on the Russes if they have a shot to it, and therefore ignoring the Chimeras with troops getting closer to objectives. And IMO, thats the most important thing where mech lists are concerned, so having 3 AV14 tanks is a damn sight better than 2 or 1, with the weaker Manticores or Hydras filling the other slots.
SandWyrm · 707 weeks ago
You've got a chip on your shoulder about Vets, but I don't think that you really understand the nature of the Guard at all. That 85-105 points that you're spending to be mediocre at close combat would be better spent on another platoon infantry squad or a heavy weapons squad. The 150 points that you're wasting across 5 infantry squads would buy a Leman Russ. The Guard are a SHOOTING army first and foremost. You should spend your points maximizing your strengths instead of propping up your weaknesses.
The way that you win combats with Guard is to LOSE them. Think about that for a second because you don't seem to grasp it. If you have a mob of Orks/Terminators/Whatever coming towards your lines, the LAST THING you want to do is to win a combat against them with anything less than a 30-man blob. Rather, you want your squads of 5-10 men to either die or run screaming from the fight so that your enemy is standing in the clear before your guns. You then shoot him with everything you have while moving up the next blocking squad to buy you another turn of shooting with their lives.
Thus the nature of the Guard is to sacrifice some so that the others may live. We're one of the few armies that actually plays like it's fluff. But you're still stuck in "Hero" mode. That's a Marine attitude, not an Imperial Guard one.
DKoW · 707 weeks ago
I dont have a chip on my shoulder. I just see them as suicide squads. My reasoning is thus.
I pack them into a Vendetta, it out flanks and drops the vets off to kill a tank very close to the Vendetta, while the Vendetta kills another tank further up the table. Within one or 2 turns of the vets killing said tank, they will get shot at or charged, and then die. See perfect suicide squad.
I really dont understand why anyone would waste their points on packing these guys into a Chimera. I mean your spending 140pts on the vet squad (with Carapace, x3 Melta, and PW. Best combination in my view) and then adding 55pts to them to make it 195pts??? Thats wasteful spending. And most pack 3 or 4 squads like this into theiir lists, meaning they are wasting 165-220pts on transports, let alone the mounting cost of the squads themselves. For those points you could be adding in another Vendetta or Valkyrie, Hellhound, Russ, ST squad, or (god forbid) a psyker battle squad.
As for my way of winning combats. You obviously dont understand the concept. The aim is to hold up an enemy unit for a turn or 2, not to win the combat. For example, i once held up a Dreadnaught for 4 turns with 1 10man squad of guard. i couldnt hurt the thing, but i kept it from shooting or charging anything else for 4 turns.
Another example would be my 50man blob with Yarrick were charge and destroyed by a 10man squad of Banshees. If Yarrick wasnt there, the banshees would have forced the Guard to run, because i lost 12 men in the first turn. But since Yarrick was there, i forced my opponent to combat the squad for an extra 3 turns until, both squads were annihilated. Yarrick was the last man standing.
The ends justify the means. 50 men destroyed just so as a squad of banshees couldnt rampage through my back line is an acceptable loss. 1 squad holding up a Dreadnaught for 4 turns, when you have nothing else at hand to kill it, is also acceptable no matter what way you look at it.
And by spending a little more on a PW, i also make the squad just that little bit more effective while they are locked in combat (and if im going to have them stuck in combat for a turn or 2, i want them to kill something instantly.)
So as you can see, i am using the Guard as intended. Im just using a different method of going about it. Call it "Hero mode" if you must, but it works for me
Plus, i already have the other units i want to bring with me, so why not kit out the platoon infantry???
DKoW · 707 weeks ago
* HQ (110pts)
* Company Command Squad (110pts)
* Company Commander
Laspistol, Melta Bombs, Power Weapon
* Equipment
Carapace Armour, Close Combat Weapon, Frag Grenade, Krak Grenade
* Veteran Equipment
Equipment
* Weapons
2x Laspistol, 2x Meltagun
* Troops (1050pts)
* Infantry Platoon (910pts)
(Ok the voxes and the Melta bombs arent in the squads, but as i said i wasnt sure if i added melta bombs or not, and i rarely use orders, so the Vox is of no use)
* Infantry Squad (140pts x5)
* Chimera
* Equipment
Hunter-killer Missile
* Weapons
Heavy Bolter, Multi-laser
* Equipment
Close Combat Weapon, Flak Armour, Frag Grenade, Krak Grenade
* Sergeant
Laspistol, Power Weapon
* Weapons
Flamer, Lasgun
* Platoon Command Squad (210pts)
* Chimera
* Equipment
Hunter-killer Missile
* Weapons
Heavy Bolter, Multi-laser
* Commissar
Bolt Pistol, Power Weapon
* Equipment
Close Combat Weapon, Flak Armour, Frag Grenade, Krak Grenade
* Guardsman
* Equipment
Medi Pack, Platoon Standard
* Weapons
Flamer, 3x Laspistol
* Platoon Commander
Laspistol, Power Fist
* Veteran Squad (140pts)
* Equipment
Close Combat Weapon, Flak Armour, Frag Grenade, Grenadiers, Krak Grenades
* Veteran Sergeant
Laspistol, Power Weapon
* Weapons
3x Meltagun, 6x Shotgun
* Fast Attack (260pts)
* Vendetta Gunship (130pts)
* Vendetta Gunship (130pts)
* Heavy Support (575pts)
* Leman Russ Squadron (150pts)
* Leman Russ
Heavy Bolter
* Leman Russ Squadron (180pts)
* Leman Russ Demolisher
Lascannon
* Leman Russ Squadron (245pts)
* Leman Russ Executioner
Lascannon, Plasma Cannons
Roland Durendal · 707 weeks ago
The list above has infantry squads kitted out to take out....hordes and then assault them? Any half decent unit will chew threw 10 guardsmen (assuming they all live when their chimera invariably blows up ) in a turn or 2. Honestly, points can be shaved off by getting rid of HKs (if you're using your Chimera's to knock out heavy armor...something's wrong), and dropping the PW and Carapace from the Company Command. I'd even say drop it from the line squads too, but I can see the usability if you're planning on running a 50man horde...but if that's the case they can't use their Chimera's so those become almost free KP. Either way, PW on regular line squads and Command squads are only useful in aggressive assault Guard lists...which this isn't. Such a list would include Straken to give everyone FC and CA, so those PW actually become somewhat useful.
Additionally your notions of Vets are off. Few, if anyone, I know runs them with Carapace armor. In fact, Outside of one guy in my gaming group, I'm the only one who runs a squad or two with it. Most Vet squads either run vanilla with no doctrines (in a Chimera they become 20pts more expensive then one of your regular squads...but oh so more effective...or in a Vendetta/Valkyrie) or with the Demolitions doctrine.
Vets, when used properly, are far from a "suicide squad". Indeed that's what Special Weapon Squads are for: 85pts or so packed in a Vendetta or Chimera to rush the field, disembark, hopefully kill something, and then die. Vets are for more surgical strikes.
I'd pay heed to Sandwyrm, he's pretty smart up on this Guard bidness.
SandWyrm · 707 weeks ago
So I have trouble taking you seriously when I see you talking up a fully kitted-out command squad with clearly inefficient options. Because it reminds me of how I tried to play Guard when I was losing 4 out of 5 of my games to Marines and Orks at the local store. It also reminds me of every new IG player that comes to the forums I frequent asking why they can't win any games.
I know exactly how that unit will play on the table. You'll wipe out a small unit of regular Ork Boyz while losing half of your own unit. Then the Nobs walk up and wipe the floor with you anyway. If you're especially lucky, you'll fail a LD check and your Commissar will shoot your officer, who's carrying one of your precious power weapons.
If you're facing a tougher unit of say, 20 Orks, then you'll survive your first round of combat and then get wiped out during YOUR assault phase. Which is fail because then your opponent is free to move and assault on his terms instead of yours.
If you DON'T tool up your squads, and you DON'T assault first, then your opponent will have to assault you on his turn. Wiping out the squad and leaving him standing there. In the open. In front of an army's worth of guns. I've wiped out whole armies of Terminators, Nob Bikers, and whatnot with that tactic. I know it works. Block, buy time, shoot. Every squad, every tank, can be sacrificed for the good of the whole.
Fast armies? Put Hellhounds or empty Chimeras in the gaps between the terrain pieces. Outflankers? Put lines of troops or empty vehicles to your side to block them.
In the rare case that you want to be able to tarpit something, take a blob with a Commissar, not a command squad. 20-30 men can take a pounding for a few turns. Give them some power weapons and a few buffs from Strakken and they might even win their combats most of the time. But a Command Squad? No way. Not even Strakken can just wade into close combat unsupported.
As for Vets… Why are you buying them carapace if they're already in a Chimera? Carapace is for walking vets, not mounted ones. More wasted points.
As for Chimelta Vets being suicide troops… Come again? The only suicide troops I take are the ones who aren't in Chimeras.
Roland Durendal · 707 weeks ago
SandWyrm · 707 weeks ago
DKoW · 707 weeks ago
So to both of you......dont tell me my list doesnt work.
I've never played Orks, not even at a tournament (and i've only been to 2 in 2 years, so i dont know how this list would fair against them) I've played Marines (oh god have i played Marines) and this list can destroy them, quite easily. Since the introduction of the Executioner to the Codex, i've had very little to fear from the Marines and their terminators.
I dont know where you got the thought that i put my vets in Chimeras??? I transport them in the Vendetta, you know the one transport vehicle the Guard have that doesnt let you fire from?? So thats why i equip carapace.
And i never said Chimera Vets were suicide squads. I said i see Vets as suicide squads, not them in a tank. Just the Vet squad itself. If you want to see it as the "end all, be all" of the troop section, and equip them the exact same way as everyone on the internet says you should.....you go right ahead. I won't stop you. But i refuse to see them as anything other than a Suicide squad.
As for the CCS. I treat it like i do my Vets. a Cheaper version of them, and they have done their job better than my vets have. So dont tell me i've equipped them badly.
As for Straken? Please i could spend 95pts on better things than him. A 5 man ST squad for example. 9 Ratlings. Marbo, Rough Riders (i know they suck, but im only pointing out i could have 9 Rough Riders, i think, for the same price as Straken)
Only time i would take Straken would be with an Airborne list. And thats a list i would only play for the fun of it.
And heres a question for you.
Where in the rulebook does it say that i have to follow everything and anything you, and everyone on the internet, say i have to put into my list to make it good??? Because i must have missed that page.
All I said at the beginning was what i take into my list, and then you start bombarding me with what the platoon should and shouldn't have. Then you say the way i use my army is (for lack of a better word) stupid, and that my view on certain units is invalid.
Who are you to be telling me how my lists should look, what upgrades i should/shouldn't take to make it, apparently, better, tell me the way my army is used is daft, and that my view on units is invalid???
I've never once gone to a forum to ask why i cant win games, i've never even asked my mates why i cant. What i did was learn from what happened to my army after every defeat and improved it in the way i thought was best (minus the Vendettas. That was TKE's suggestion, and i never even asked for his advice on it that time either (i know him IRL)).
Most of my opponents have been Eldar, Marine and Guard players (no one in Northern Ireland seem to want to play with any other army. Last tournament i was at had just under 30 Marine players, and 4 out of 5 of my games, i was against Marines. But i was playing with my Tau though, so i couldnt really get very far in the tables) and i've adjusted my list accordingly to combat all of these three.
When i play against Orks, im sure i will adapt my list accordingly. But until that day comes, my list stays.
The last few paragraphs may have sounded aggressive, but i've had enough of you guys telling me what i should/shouldnt have, and what i should do with the Guard.
I've had enough of reading what you say about how your superior to me at the game. You may not say it in so many words, but thats the impression i get when i read what you say.
You say you've played over 120 games since the new codex, and played at national level???? That means jack shit to me. Your opinions on the Guard are no better than mine. I havent tread over your opinions, but you seem quite willing to stomp all over mine.
I never asked for your input into my list and how i run it. I only put it up to show you that i had every other thing sorted to how i want it and how effective it is for me.
SandWyrm · 707 weeks ago
A 43% win rate means that your list isn't working. I can see how the kitted out command squad might have some utility (43% worth) against small Marine squads. But unless you start practicing some proper blocking tactics and list efficiency, you're going to be eaten alive by Orks, Nids, Dark Eldar, and pretty much any Codex that doesn't follow a Marine-like attack pattern.
My local win rate is 80+%. The only local player who can consistently beat me just won 2nd Place at the NOVA invitational a couple of weeks ago. I play against Orks, Nids, Marines (all types), Eldar, and Dark Eldar on a regular basis. My list and tactics routinely beat all of them. I've attended 2 national, 1 state, and 6 local tournaments just in the last year. So maybe you should consider my advice instead of dismissing it out of hand.
I commented on Vets in Chimeras because that was an argument that you made.
When I add up all of the useless upgrades that you've taken in your list, I get 390 points. That's TWENTY PERCENT of your list that's not going to carry it's own weight during a battle.
Let's see what 390 points could buy:
2 Leman Russ Executioners
2 Veteran Squads w/3 x Meltas in Chimeras, plus a Primaris Psyker or Hydra
6 Infantry Squads w/Autocannons and Grenade Launchers
3 Valkyries or Vendettas
Stack that against whatever gain you think you're getting from Power Weapons, Medi-Paks, Carapace, Sponsons, and whatnot. It adds up. The infantry squads alone would gain you SIX turns of shooting vs. a Horde army if used properly. Or reliably suppress 2-3 Rhinos per turn.
DKoW · 707 weeks ago
And as i've said, i havent played against those other races. Im sure that if i cant handle them with this list, i will make improvements of my own, when i see fit to add them. I will not be bullied into these decisions by the likes of you.
And your still going on at me as though your superior. So what if you have a 80% win rate?? Winning isin't everything you know (and dont go on at me saying "so your there to be a mediocre player then?" No, im there just for the fun of it. Just to play the game with a mate. If you start caring about winning so much you become an asshole, which is something i never intend to be.) Besides, in my opinion 43% win rate is good. But then i consider draws to be successes as well, so i would see that % value to go up. But then thats just me, if you want to focus only on the wins, you go right ahead.
And again with the vets. I never said that vets in chimeras was a bad thing. I've seen it work a good few times. But i just dont see any reason to play them like that (note to letter "I" in that statement, because you seem to be missing it everytime i talk about the vets. That means that thats my opinion. If i want to see them as a suicide squad, you cant stop me. If you want to see them in chimeras as the "end all, be all" of the codex, who am I to stop you.)
And you seem to think that im automatically going to lose to Horde armies. I've played against the Guard when they are in horde mode with this list, and i've beaten it, on several occasions. And i know Orks and Nids are two different armies entirely, but i know how I would deal with them, if i ever played them. Im not entirely incompetant you know.
One mans useless, is another mans useful. You cant tell me whats right or wrong for me. I've adapted my list to the way i like to play, and to the way i've been forced to play at my local. The stuff you have in your list, won't necessarily work for me, as it has you. Why is it people like you dont understand that?? You cant force your playstyle on other people.
390pts may be able to give all those units, but why would I need them. I've kitted everything else out to way i want it. 2 more Executioners is just stupid, only 1 is needed. Psychic units are just useless (thats my opinion on them. Dont throw a fit over it) I dont like Autocannons, and HWs in my view, are best stuck in HW squads. whats the point in having them in the infantry?? Your going to be moving that squad at some point, then that HW is useless to you.
And i already have 2 Vendettas, why would i need more???
SandWyrm · 707 weeks ago
I didn't do it for you.
"And as i've said, i havent played against those other races."
And that is the crux of the matter.
Look, I have nothing against you personally, but you need to expand your horizons a bit. You have a niche list and play style that sort-of works against just one type of opponent in your local area. But you've come onto an international competitive blog and proclaimed it to be good. While making assertions about Veterans and Russes that don't hold water.
This is where so much bad thinking about the Guard comes from. You don't have enough experience yet from which to make these assertions. Yet you're making them. Then these flawed ideas get taken up by others, only to have them realize later that they wasted their money and time following flawed strategies. Strategies that you yourself will one day abandon once you attend a tournament or two in cities other than your own.
DKoW · 707 weeks ago
I would never tell anyone else how to kit out their list (in fact last time i went to an Army list forum, i told the guy to ignore everyone else there and to kit out his list the best way he thought best, not how everyone else on the planet wanted it to look. And what did i get for it?? The same treatment you've given me.)
All i did was show what i brought with me in a Mech list, and what worked best for me. Not once did i say that anyone else should follow my lead.
As for my assertions. I never said anyone had to listen to what i thought about units. All i did was point out what i thought about units. Nothing more. But because it doesnt fit in with the general public's opinion, its obviously wrong??? Ther must be something wrong with you if cant respect others opinions.
And I have no need, or want, to go to more than 1 tournament a year. Finding when they start, where they are, arranging accommadation, and travel is just too much hassle.
WestRider · 707 weeks ago
Not terribly relevant for the list currently under discussion, but definitely a worthwhile Squad that's over your 70 Point Max.
The thing about 3+ Russes is about Target Saturation. Any Army that doesn't completely suck can handle one AV14 Target, even at Range (Especially when the Side and Rear AVs are lower). Most can handle 2. Few can really deal with three before they close to Melta Range. I don't have the Math or the Theory to explain it, but I've seen it over and over again, in my Games and others: 1 Russ Hull dies, 2 do OK, 3 rock.
SandWyrm · 707 weeks ago
I'll let you in on another secret: Past turn 2, I don't care if my 2 Russes die. Because if you kill them, that means that my Chimeras have gotten where they need to go. I won a game against Dark Eldar last night where the Russes were my only tank losses. Oh well. :)
WestRider · 707 weeks ago
SandWyrm · 707 weeks ago
You have no idea how many Tallarn Plasma Gun troopers I've shelved and/or sold off since the new codex came out. They just don't make sense anymore outside of 1-2 Veteran units. Autocannons and Grenade Launchers are where it's at right now.
WestRider · 707 weeks ago
Nice to hear of someone else running old Metal Guard, too :D
WestRider · 707 weeks ago
Platoon A: 3 Squads, Grenade Launchers, Autocannon, Commissar, 230 Points total
Vs. Platoon B: 3 Squads, Plasmaguns, Autocannon, Commissar, 260 Points total
So Platoon B is about 13% more expensive.
For those extra Points you get an increase in effectiveness of:
+18% against Hammernators
+13% against TWC, assuming enough Storm Shields that they can take all the Plasma Hits on those
+37% against a BA Tactical Squad in 4+ cover, or a regular MEq Unit in the open
+93% against a BA Tac Squad in the open
+20% more Penetrating Hits against AV11
+25% more Penetrating Hits against AV12
All of those are assuming targets outside of Rapid Fire Range. Because the Grenade Launchers don't get extra shots, there, the difference magnifies once the Target's within 12".
DKoW · 707 weeks ago
Why would you place your Russes behind a Chimera??? They are strong enough to last a while at the very front of the army.
SandWyrm · 707 weeks ago
On turn 1 my Demolisher starts in front, sure. But by turn 2 it's usually grabbed a strategic position and the Chimeras are zooming around it.
The longer-ranged Russes will naturally gravitate towards the rear as the game goes on. If nothing else because they're more vulnerable to assaults when their rear armor is only AV10. That's one reason I'm liking the Executioner lately. It's got AV11 on the rear, so it can move up into the middle of the Chimera swarm instead of hugging the back table edge like my Vanilla Russes do.
DKoW · 707 weeks ago