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Wednesday, September 28, 2011

GWvsJohn talks Chaos: e-mailed list

Black Matt

So i'm looking through the C:CSM book, and I had a couple good ideas for lists. Looking at the abominable prices and weapon load-out options, it seems that C:CSM either wants to get really close and melta everything to death (combis on lords, x5 melta on havocs, x2 melta on every squad of CSM, x2 melta on a couple raptor squads, and then either oblits/havocks) and pray that the enemy has no CC ability, or it wants to get close and stick a couple units (HQ and termies) into cc and hope for the best.

I tried to take a middle of the road approach, that involved building lists that use mechanization to get close, and then launch assaults on subsequent turns. The idea is to move LR/Rhinos/Preds foward, with Raptors behind them to keep them out of LoS. And the Chaos Lord rides with someone close to the front. Get within melta range, and go crazy. Then assault whats left until dead. Rinse, and repeat. I went with slaneesh marks on the CC units so they would always go first in CC. What do you think of the two lists? How would you improve them?

chaos lord: mark of slanesh, combi-melta, dual Lclaws
2x5 termies: mark of slanesh, x4 combi-melta, x1 Hflamer:
2x1 LR:
4x5 chaos marines: x1 melta:
2x1 rhino
2x5 raptors: mark of slanesh, x2 melta, x1 flamer, champion w/ Pfist
3x1 pred: ac/las

chaos lord: mark of slanesh, dual Lclaws
3x6 chosen: mark of slanesh, x3 pw, x2 melta, champion w/ Pfist
3x1 rhino: combi-melta
4x5 chaos marines: x1 melta
2x1 rhino:combi-melta
2x5 raptors: mark of slanesh, x2 melta, champion w/ Pfist (one squad w/ flamer)
3x1 pred: ac/las


Shas'El Mike

IMO, your assessment of the CSM book is partially right. Chaos can bring a decent amount of melta, and spamming the crap out of it makes for a somewhat competitive list. However, unlike the old immo-spam lists, the CSM just can't bring enough reliable anti-troop to eliminate any troops you manage to de-mech. Regarding your second point, it's a little off. Chaos Marines don't really have any good CC themselves. The Lord can be decent, but like most HQ he suffers from overcosting and vulnerability to hidden power fists. Chaos termies aren't really an ace CC unit either. They're either stuck with 5++ and s4 (which aren't great) or rapidly become too expensive once you start adding icons and weapons. In an army already starved for points, I don't think you can afford to bring a lot of bells and whistles.

Now, onto your lists.

First, the Lord. I think it's a decent loadout. MoS means you're striking first against even other characters, naturally high WS means 3+ or 4+ to hit usually, LC counter the low S4. One thing that stands out is lack of wings. Don't underestimate the ability to move like Jump Infantry but still ride Rhinos. It's one of the few good things about the CSM codex. It should be a mandatory upgrade on all PA Lords. Because of Wings, I find my Lords tend to play very aggressive and make a long charge, leaving the squad behind. Because of this, I rarely find opportunity to use the a combi-melta. I'd drop the melta and add wings.

Now troops. Are 2 of those squds on foot? Do those rhinos not have combis or havocs? Fix both of those issues immediately. I'm not exactly sure how many points total your list is (2k I think), but I think you need 4/5/6 troops at 1500/1750/2000 in a Chaos list. Other than that, the super bare bones squad is ok. I personally find the champ and combi upgrades worth it, but you can never go totally wrong saving points in a CSM list.

On to fast attack. Raptors are the best of a crappy section, but don't turn them into something they're not. The MoS is wasted on them. Having your 8 or 12 ws4, s4 CC attacks strike before tactical marines isn't going to change much, then you add a fist which totally wastes the Icon. I wouldn't waste points trying to turn Raptors into a CC unit. It takes a lot (for example FNP and furious charge) to turn assault marines into a CC unit and the Icons just don't cut it. Take 5 with 2 meltas and use them as a surprise melta/speedbump or DS unit.

I like the range you bring in HS. The temptation to go full melta-spam with MG havocs is strong, but as I've written previously, you need range to compete. You mention moving your Preds up, but I would recommend against that. Stick them in a corner to guard your weak rear and side armor and enjoy anti-transport fire all game.

Finally elites. I think this is a problem area. First the chosen. They have 1 attack each. Thus, they stink in combat. Those power weapons in the chosen squad make GWvsJohn sad. In the current codex, Chosen are another melta unit that trades scoring for infiltrate. Now termies, MoS and no grenades is not a good combo. Even if you're not charging into cover, what I4 things do you really need to go before? Grey Knights I guess? I think the Icon is wasted here. 5 with 4 combis and a heavy flamer is a decent loadout otherwise, but I can't say I like the big, pricey Landraider to ferry them around. 220 for 2 lascannons and no PotM means they aren't an effective gunboat. Without an assault unit as scary as TH/SS or FC/LC termies, they aren't an effective transport. You're spending a lot of points for not much bang with a CSM Landraider.

I've made some pretty drastic suggestions to your list, so I don't think I can really give a quick fix. Let me know in the comments or via e-mail what you think and I'll drop a sample list.

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