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Averuns in Miniature |
This is a unit with some serious pros. First, let's talk toughness. T 4(5) with 3+ and FNP makes them virtually immune to small arms fire and non-pw CC attacks. A bolt shot (from a marine, obvs) has a 2/3*1/3*1/3*1/2 = 1/27 shot to land a wound. A full double tap from a tactical squad will probably cause 1 wound to a Plague Marine Squad. This leads into the next pro, which is FOC slot. Super toughness plus a troops choice makes for a fine unit. It will take dedicated CC units or mass heavy/special weapon fire to take them off an objective. Next let's talk arms. Standard is bolt pistol, bolter and CCW (anyone else remember the tiny little plagues knives on the 2nd ed plastic plagues?) or as like to call it "marine plus." So your default is to shoot like a tactical marine and fight like an assault marine, very flexible. Next is the option that makes everyone go "omg, OP!!!" and one of the reasons many overrate the CSM book. Two specials in a five man squad. Don't get me wrong, it's a very, very good option, but it's hardly game breaking, especially when CSM only have a 10 man transport. Then comes fearless. It's a big upgrade from your standard CSM. A big knock on CSM is that it's relatively easy to break and then either sweep or escort the entire squad off the board. This will never happen with Plague Marines. Don't forget that fearless is almost always worse than ATSKNF, so fearless is a relative, not absolute pro. Final pro is the true "+1" rhino as discussed previously.
There's always cons :). First is cost. Yes, 23 per model is probably the right amount for a MEQ with +1T, FNP and fearless, but it's still 115 for the basic squad, so now chance of a "cheap" squad. Not a huge con, but it must be mentioned. Next con is, IMO, the big one. No heavy weapon option and thus no range. Lack of range is one of the biggest problems with the CSM codex and your "best" troops choice only exacerbates the problem. Finally, there's CC. I3 can be a real killer in 2 ways. First, against other MEQs with power weapon, you go down before you get to strike and no FNP. T5 helps, but it can't save you. Second, should you face non-pw MEQ, it's easier for them to flee and regroup, leaving your plagues stranded in the open. Taking CC a step further, there's no real way to make the unit any "good" at assault. The champion costs almost 40 base, he's only i3 so a power weapon is useless, and once you add the fist, you're looking at 63 points for a single 1 wound model. That's too much. Plagues can be a big detriment in CC.
So, how to field them. I think there's only 1 efficient way. A lot of forumites will advocate a 5 man squad with 2 plasmaguns to act as a "ranged" unit. That's almost 150 points for 2 immobile s7 24" shots. I wouldn't call that great. The only real special weapon option (like most units) is the meltagun. Bring 2 and be happy you get even that in the crappy CSM book. The champion upgrade is just too pricey to make a bad unit slightly less bad at CC. Leave him at home. Note that since the PM squad can get 2 special on its own, and is fearless, it has no need for the 25 point champion combi-melta, unlike your standard CSM squad. In terms of numbers, I see no reason to take more than the minimum. At 5, you already have the majority of your threat in the 2 meltas. 5 Plague Marines can hold an objective almost as well as 10 regular Space Marines. A 5 man double melta PM squad is about as good as the CSM codex gets. Add a Rhino with your choice of weapon and call it a day. 180-185 points for a tough, double melta, scoring unit with some added firepower from the transport.
So just bring 6 and call it a day, right? Not quite that easy. Without question the Plague Marine squad brings a lot more to the table than the Chaos Space Marine squad. It's also 25 points more expensive. That might not seem like much, but this is your Troops choice as well as a big (if not the sole) part of your mech saturation. You're bringing 6 of them. Now that 25 becomes 150. That's 2 Obliterators, or a Terminator squad or a Dread, or a Raptor squad or a Daemon Prince. The PM and the CSM squads do the same thing, the Plagues just do it better and are a lot more durable. Those other units do things your Troops can't and your overpriced CSM list needs points to bring those "support" units to even think of competing. My recommendation is to start building your list with the basic 155-160 points CSM squad I described previously. After you factor in everything else, and you have "spare" points, start "upgrading" the normal marines to Plague Marines. I think you'll build a better list that way.
Tyrant · 709 weeks ago
Nurglitch · 709 weeks ago
Nurgle's Rot can be cast in close combat, allowing the squad to clear tar pits that their mediocre close combat capability would fail to harm significantly. This means that you can actually use Melta Guns without exposing the Plague Marines to a tarpit situation. The Lash of Submission would ruin target acquisition, being useless against vehicles, or units in vehicles, and be neutralized in the exact position that Plague Marines can be neutralized from: close combat. Most importantly, Nurgle's Rot can be used to engage multiple units, with a Palanquin of Nurgle adding 0.5" to the 6" radius of effect.
Also, Forge World does a gravy Plague Sorcerer.
tzeentchling 76p · 709 weeks ago
Nurgle's Rot is mostly a sub-par power. Unless you play a lot of Orks/Nids in your games, S2 just doesn't cut it. I admit it has some useage, but compared to the game-altering ability of Lash it's not quite as significant. Yes, if you Lash you can't melta things. Given the disparity in range, this is rarely an issue.
I agree that Forge World's model is quite awesome. Sadly, I just don't see a place for it.
Nurglitch · 709 weeks ago
tzeentchling 76p · 709 weeks ago
serhag · 709 weeks ago
tzeentchling 76p · 709 weeks ago
Nurglitch · 709 weeks ago
Nurglitch · 709 weeks ago
Having the Sorcerer in a close combat unit means that the enemy will face a severe risk trying to lock the Sorcerer down in combat where he can't use the Lash of Submission, the Lash doesn't have to be wasted against vehicle targets, basically shooting as if he were on his own, and it can be used to ensure that charges connect, and that enemy infantry gets dragged off of objectives.
tzeentchling 76p · 709 weeks ago
Sethis · 709 weeks ago
GWvsJohn 44p · 709 weeks ago
Regarding BA Assault Squads charging Plague Marines, figure the double melta, possible infernus and 7-7 bolt shots will kill 1 pre-charge, 16 s5 attacks will kill another more often than not, your 3 guys fighting back likely won't do anything, then the fist will kill another. A BA charge will usually kill 3 Plague Marines. The fist will kill another on your combat phase and if the rest of the squad manages to kill that last guy, they get exactly what they want, wiping out your squad during your CC phase. A min PM squad is very unlikely to "beat off" a 10 man assault squad with a fist.
Sethis · 709 weeks ago
blacksly · 709 weeks ago
Second, with PMs, I am willing to drive Rhinos up, disembark on the NEAR side, and melta units. As long as there isn't a major CC beater in the area, and I have a DP or two following behind to clear the PMs out of CC, these are the only MEQ squad that I'm willing to just say "shoot me, see if I care" in order to get melta shots off.
Nurglitch · 709 weeks ago
blacksly · 709 weeks ago
Now, Plasma Guns are a bit of a problem, but even this is not that bad. Consider that you make the same move, but stick only the two meltaguns out the front, and hide the others behind the Rhino. Now you have a 4+ save, and most units that will enter double-tap range to fire Plasma Guns do not want to be within 12" of the PMs after they're done firing. Unless it's a Company Command Squad with 4x PGs, they're not likely to destroy the squad, and even 3 surviving PMs will defeat a squad of IG in CC. Space Marine chapters rarely take multiple Plasma in a unit.
And, if they do... stay in the Rhino. If they're coming at me with Plasma weapons instead of Melta, hey, I'm HAPPY. I won't get out, but then again, I won't have to, because my vehicles will last a lot longer.
abusepuppy 121p · 709 weeks ago
This is one of those things that I don't like it when people say. Fearless is usually _better_ than ATSKNF; the only time it is worse is in close combat when you are losing the fight (and Plague Marines basically ignore this thanks to their survivability.) Even Ld10 units fail morale and pinning tests sometimes, and the ability to simply shrug your shoulders and say "Nuh-uh" when someone Tank Shocks you or otherwise forces a test is invaluable.
GWvsJohn 44p · 709 weeks ago
Other morale checks are frequently caused by units the Tacticals want distance from, so failing and regrouping is very nice.
Furthermore, no tank in its right mind is shocking a double melta unit of plague marines.
I still stand by my statement that it is almost always better, but clearly there are exceptions.
Punchymango · 709 weeks ago
Fearless units will go exactly where you put them and do exactly what you want them to do or die trying. I think that reliability is worth taking wounds from combats you're losing.
abusepuppy 121p · 709 weeks ago
The "always better" really seems to be a case of "is better in one circumstance." Obviously Combat Tactics magnifies the usefulness, but that's rolling another thing against Fearless. And, as Mango notes below, Fearless models never fuck up and do something you don't want them to. You never get shot and fall off the objective on the last turn, you never have a critical unit get pinned, etc.
cloud · 709 weeks ago
I love plasma gun wielding small squads, they can mow down infantry, and then jump out and assault with 15 attacks. 185pts (for 5+2 guns+rhino) isn't bad.
Overall I think that your article lacks a thorough look at the unit, and I think that you should play with plague marines. I mean you also didn't mention blight grenades as an above poster said.
blacksly · 709 weeks ago
GWvsJohn 44p · 709 weeks ago
In addition, as blacksly points out, if your goal is to "mow down infantry" you can shoot the meltaguns and charge, something you can't do with the plasmaguns.
Nurglitch · 709 weeks ago
Two Plasma Guns at 12" get
Shaken: 0.37, Stunned: 0.22, Weapon Destroyed: 0.22, Immobilized: 0.22, Wrecked: 0.15 , Explodes: 0.15
Two Melta Guns between 6"-12" get
Shaken: 0.08, Stunned: 0.15, Weapon Destroyed: 0.15, Immobilized: 0.15, Wrecked: 0.15, Explodes: 0.22
However, the marginal increase in exploding Rhinos is made up for by the increasing reliability in suppression, and damage: The Plasma guns have 1.32 expected value of causing damage while the Melta guns have 0.88, and Rhinos and Razorbacks are wrecked once they've suffered three Weapon Destroyed/Immobilized results. The extra cost is absorbed by being able to shoot beyond 12".
Shooting Melta Guns and Bolt Pistols and then charging with Plague Marines is not how one might "mow down infantry".
GWvsJohn 44p · 709 weeks ago
Those results skew more to the MG for av12, and don't take into account that the MG is ace within 6.
The MG is a far, far superior AT weapon. The plasmagun forces an extra cover save per turn. I'll take the melta
I was being tongue-in-cheek with the mow down comment.
Nurglitch · 709 weeks ago
Plus with Feel No Pain, the Plague Marines can really unload with the Plasma Guns.
GWvsJohn 44p · 709 weeks ago
Nurglitch · 709 weeks ago
Two Plasma Guns at 12"
Shaken: 0.30, Stunned: 0.15, Weapon Destroyed: 0.15, Immobilized: 0.15, Wrecked: 0.08 , Explodes: 0.08
Two Melta Guns between 6"-12"
Shaken: 0.08, Stunned: 0.15, Weapon Destroyed: 0.15, Immobilized: 0.15, Wrecked: 0.15, Explodes: 0.15
Against AV11 again:
Two Melta Guns at 1"-6"
Shaken: 0.01, Stunned: 0.21, Weapon Destroyed: 0.21, Immobilized: 0.21, Wrecked: 0.20, Explodes: 0.40
Two Plasma Guns at 12"-24"
Shaken: 0.15, Stunned: 0.08, Weapon Destroyed: 0.08, Immobilized: 0.08, Wrecked: 0.04 , Explodes: 0.04
Two Melta Guns at 13+
Shaken: 0.00, Stunned: 0.00, Weapon Destroyed: 0.00, Immobilized: 0.00, Wrecked: 0.00, Explodes: 0.00
Two Plasma Guns against AV14
Shaken: 0.00, Stunned: 0.00, Weapon Destroyed: 0.00, Immobilized: 0.00, Wrecked: 0.00, Explodes: 0.00
abusepuppy 121p · 709 weeks ago
Matt · 709 weeks ago
abusepuppy 121p · 709 weeks ago
Pop421 · 709 weeks ago
Warboss Stalin · 709 weeks ago
blacksly · 709 weeks ago
artemi7 78p · 709 weeks ago
Remember, GREY KNIGHTS tend to cost less then CSM, and they at least have Coteaz and better weapons to help make up for their cost. Chaos.... no so much. You really can't afford Fists in a unit who doesn't really want to be in range to use them if it can afford it. I don't agree that Plagues should be swapped to CSM, but they should definitely avoid the fists.
GWvsJohn 44p · 709 weeks ago
You can't and shouldn't plan for the just in case walker CC with a 40 point upgrade. 5 point meltabombs, sure. Your squad has 2 meltaguns. Kill that dread before it can charge.
Nurglitch · 709 weeks ago
Strong Hammer · 706 weeks ago
Skewiff · 709 weeks ago
I would have personally noted the practicality of a Plague Marine as a <12" range unit, supported by other units in the homefield.