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Thursday, September 8, 2011

GWvsJohn talks Chaos: Plague Marines

Averuns in Miniature
Now it's time to look at the forum fanboys' favorite unit the Plague Marines. If you aren't too familiar with the Chaos Codex, you might be rubbing your eyes. No, you aren't being deceived. This is an actual good unit in the CSM book. Now you're probably thinking, "But GWvsJohn, surely a codex with a good troops choice, can't be that bad, right?" Alas, the codex actually is that bad despite the wonderfully purulent sons of Mortarion. Let's go into the pros and cons of the unit, why it can't save the CSM codex, and how (and how not) and when to use the boys in green.

This is a unit with some serious pros. First, let's talk toughness. T 4(5) with 3+ and FNP makes them virtually immune to small arms fire and non-pw CC attacks. A bolt shot (from a marine, obvs) has a 2/3*1/3*1/3*1/2 = 1/27 shot to land a wound. A full double tap from a tactical squad will probably cause 1 wound to a Plague Marine Squad. This leads into the next pro, which is FOC slot. Super toughness plus a troops choice makes for a fine unit. It will take dedicated CC units or mass heavy/special weapon fire to take them off an objective. Next let's talk arms. Standard is bolt pistol, bolter and CCW (anyone else remember the tiny little plagues knives on the 2nd ed plastic plagues?) or as like to call it "marine plus." So your default is to shoot like a tactical marine and fight like an assault marine, very flexible. Next is the option that makes everyone go "omg, OP!!!" and one of the reasons many overrate the CSM book. Two specials in a five man squad. Don't get me wrong, it's a very, very good option, but it's hardly game breaking, especially when CSM only have a 10 man transport. Then comes fearless. It's a big upgrade from your standard CSM. A big knock on CSM is that it's relatively easy to break and then either sweep or escort the entire squad off the board. This will never happen with Plague Marines. Don't forget that fearless is almost always worse than ATSKNF, so fearless is a relative, not absolute pro. Final pro is the true "+1" rhino as discussed previously.

There's always cons :). First is cost. Yes, 23 per model is probably the right amount for a MEQ with +1T, FNP and fearless, but it's still 115 for the basic squad, so now chance of a "cheap" squad. Not a huge con, but it must be mentioned. Next con is, IMO, the big one. No heavy weapon option and thus no range. Lack of range is one of the biggest problems with the CSM codex and your "best" troops choice only exacerbates the problem. Finally, there's CC. I3 can be a real killer in 2 ways. First, against other MEQs with power weapon, you go down before you get to strike and no FNP. T5 helps, but it can't save you. Second, should you face non-pw MEQ, it's easier for them to flee and regroup, leaving your plagues stranded in the open. Taking CC a step further, there's no real way to make the unit any "good" at assault. The champion costs almost 40 base, he's only i3 so a power weapon is useless, and once you add the fist, you're looking at 63 points for a single 1 wound model. That's too much. Plagues can be a big detriment in CC.

So, how to field them. I think there's only 1 efficient way. A lot of forumites will advocate a 5 man squad with 2 plasmaguns to act as a "ranged" unit. That's almost 150 points for 2 immobile s7 24" shots. I wouldn't call that great. The only real special weapon option (like most units) is the meltagun. Bring 2 and be happy you get even that in the crappy CSM book. The champion upgrade is just too pricey to make a bad unit slightly less bad at CC. Leave him at home. Note that since the PM squad can get 2 special on its own, and is fearless, it has no need for the 25 point champion combi-melta, unlike your standard CSM squad. In terms of numbers, I see no reason to take more than the minimum. At 5, you already have the majority of your threat in the 2 meltas. 5 Plague Marines can hold an objective almost as well as 10 regular Space Marines. A 5 man double melta PM squad is about as good as the CSM codex gets. Add a Rhino with your choice of weapon and call it a day. 180-185 points for a tough, double melta, scoring unit with some added firepower from the transport.

So just bring 6 and call it a day, right? Not quite that easy. Without question the Plague Marine squad brings a lot more to the table than the Chaos Space Marine squad. It's also 25 points more expensive. That might not seem like much, but this is your Troops choice as well as a big (if not the sole) part of your mech saturation. You're bringing 6 of them. Now that 25 becomes 150. That's 2 Obliterators, or a Terminator squad or a Dread, or a Raptor squad or a Daemon Prince. The PM and the CSM squads do the same thing, the Plagues just do it better and are a lot more durable. Those other units do things your Troops can't and your overpriced CSM list needs points to bring those "support" units to even think of competing. My recommendation is to start building your list with the basic 155-160 points CSM squad I described previously. After you factor in everything else, and you have "spare" points, start "upgrading" the normal marines to Plague Marines. I think you'll build a better list that way.

Comments (39)

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A great synergistic upgrade to the min Plague Marine unit is a MOS Lash Sorceror. He gains the ablative Plague Marines and can Lash out of the fire point of the Rhino. If the squad gets in combat he can strike at high Init. with his Force Weapon. Likely any power wpn/fist attacks will be directed at the Sorc rather than the squad allowing them to prevail with their FNP.
8 replies · active 709 weeks ago
A Plague Sorcerer is much better to go with a Plague Marine unit. He doesn't monopolize a firing point on the Rhino, and gains Fearless from the Plague Marines, and gains a fantastic unit for tarpitting hordes while contributing a psychic power that can be used in close combat, or cast from the extra dimensions of a Rhino without using a fire point. Likewise, they protect the Plague Sorcerer with their defensive grenades.

Nurgle's Rot can be cast in close combat, allowing the squad to clear tar pits that their mediocre close combat capability would fail to harm significantly. This means that you can actually use Melta Guns without exposing the Plague Marines to a tarpit situation. The Lash of Submission would ruin target acquisition, being useless against vehicles, or units in vehicles, and be neutralized in the exact position that Plague Marines can be neutralized from: close combat. Most importantly, Nurgle's Rot can be used to engage multiple units, with a Palanquin of Nurgle adding 0.5" to the 6" radius of effect.

Also, Forge World does a gravy Plague Sorcerer.
Most of the time, if you're using Lash, you don't need the firing point for your other guns. The Sorcerer still gains fearless regardless of his mark. Again, the sorcerer gets the blight grenade protection regardless of mark.

Nurgle's Rot is mostly a sub-par power. Unless you play a lot of Orks/Nids in your games, S2 just doesn't cut it. I admit it has some useage, but compared to the game-altering ability of Lash it's not quite as significant. Yes, if you Lash you can't melta things. Given the disparity in range, this is rarely an issue.

I agree that Forge World's model is quite awesome. Sadly, I just don't see a place for it.
Nurgle's Rot is S3. The psychic power isn't the same as the Gift of Chaos. Not being able to use the Lash of Submission in close combat is the big kicker, and the opportunity cost for not using the special weapons is too great. Better to put a Sorcerer with the Lash of Submission in a unit that doesn't have its own shooting, like Possessed or Berzerkers.
OK, S3 is a bigger difference. Still, you'll be in combat with this unit how many turns of the game? Probably not many. The fact is that Plague Marines really don't want to be in combat anyway - so if you're there, either you're desperate or have overwhelming force, in which case not being able to use the power is less important, or you got charged and are probably screwed either way. I think having the sorcerer in a unit designed for combat is a mistake, because as you said Lash can't be used in combat, you have to charge what you shoot, and the unit should be moving max distance most turns and thus there's no way the sorcerer can fire anyway.
its cute that you guys expect to get any psychic powers off these days :p
Hey, it's at least ~50% regardless, save against Njal. That's half the time! Not reliable, but still definitely a threat.
After a Ld10 psychic test and Njal's Runic Weapon, that's a 46% likelihood of causing a psychic power. Pretty good odds.
I think it's an open question of how many turns any unit will be in combat: I think an opponent gets some say in the matter. Locking them in combat will prevent those dual-Melta/Plasma from eating vehicles, and dual-Flamers from eating hordes.

Having the Sorcerer in a close combat unit means that the enemy will face a severe risk trying to lock the Sorcerer down in combat where he can't use the Lash of Submission, the Lash doesn't have to be wasted against vehicle targets, basically shooting as if he were on his own, and it can be used to ensure that charges connect, and that enemy infantry gets dragged off of objectives.
A single unit of Plagues with dual plasma sitting on an objective is not a bad unit, but any mobile squads should usually have meltaguns.
Unless you're facing a LOT of power weapons or more than 1 Fist, Plague Marines will last all day. I've had a squad of 6 beat off 10 BA Assault Marines with Fist in combat before. The main part is just to make sure that when you are about to hit combat, you don't get dragged more than 3" away, so you can at least contest. Defensive grenades weren't mentioned for some reason, but they're a pretty damn nice thing to have against something like Banshees/Sang Guard.
2 replies · active 709 weeks ago
Yeah, totally forgot defensive grenades. It's a nice little bonus, another thing that adds to the survivability of the squad.

Regarding BA Assault Squads charging Plague Marines, figure the double melta, possible infernus and 7-7 bolt shots will kill 1 pre-charge, 16 s5 attacks will kill another more often than not, your 3 guys fighting back likely won't do anything, then the fist will kill another. A BA charge will usually kill 3 Plague Marines. The fist will kill another on your combat phase and if the rest of the squad manages to kill that last guy, they get exactly what they want, wiping out your squad during your CC phase. A min PM squad is very unlikely to "beat off" a 10 man assault squad with a fist.
I said I'd seen it, not that it was likely or to be expected every time. :)
Two things: First, that "cannot chase other MEQ and get stranded" is rarely a problem. If the opponent is shooting small arms into them, big deal, and if he is shooting heavy weapons into them, either you've already lost as all your heavy units are gone, or it's good for you.

Second, with PMs, I am willing to drive Rhinos up, disembark on the NEAR side, and melta units. As long as there isn't a major CC beater in the area, and I have a DP or two following behind to clear the PMs out of CC, these are the only MEQ squad that I'm willing to just say "shoot me, see if I care" in order to get melta shots off.
2 replies · active 709 weeks ago
The problem with accepting being shot is that the same weapons that are best at killing Chaos Space Marines kill Plague Marines just as easily: Plasma still wounds on a 2+, ignoring armour and Feel No Pain. At an 8pt markup, that actually makes them more vulnerable on a point for point basis than Chaos Space Marines.
I disagree. The weapons that are best at killing CSM are bolters at double-tap range, or being shot/assaulted by BA Assault Squads or by Grey Hunters. Any of the following weapons going into PMs are not going into my Dreads, Oblits, DP, Rhinos: melta/MM, ML, LC.
Now, Plasma Guns are a bit of a problem, but even this is not that bad. Consider that you make the same move, but stick only the two meltaguns out the front, and hide the others behind the Rhino. Now you have a 4+ save, and most units that will enter double-tap range to fire Plasma Guns do not want to be within 12" of the PMs after they're done firing. Unless it's a Company Command Squad with 4x PGs, they're not likely to destroy the squad, and even 3 surviving PMs will defeat a squad of IG in CC. Space Marine chapters rarely take multiple Plasma in a unit.
And, if they do... stay in the Rhino. If they're coming at me with Plasma weapons instead of Melta, hey, I'm HAPPY. I won't get out, but then again, I won't have to, because my vehicles will last a lot longer.
>Don't forget that fearless is almost always worse than ATSKNF

This is one of those things that I don't like it when people say. Fearless is usually _better_ than ATSKNF; the only time it is worse is in close combat when you are losing the fight (and Plague Marines basically ignore this thanks to their survivability.) Even Ld10 units fail morale and pinning tests sometimes, and the ability to simply shrug your shoulders and say "Nuh-uh" when someone Tank Shocks you or otherwise forces a test is invaluable.
3 replies · active 709 weeks ago
In my experience, tank shocking is as much about arranging your opponents models as it is about the Ld check. Unless the tank is shocking deep into the squad (which happens frequently no doubt), I'd almost rather my Tactical squad flee and auto-regroup than allow the shock to bunch them up.

Other morale checks are frequently caused by units the Tacticals want distance from, so failing and regrouping is very nice.

Furthermore, no tank in its right mind is shocking a double melta unit of plague marines.

I still stand by my statement that it is almost always better, but clearly there are exceptions.
Punchymango's avatar

Punchymango · 709 weeks ago

Fearless is also nice in that it makes your unit more predictable. Units with ATSKNF will try to get away from a fight they're losing, and sometimes you don't need to win so much as you need the unit they're fighting to not shoot at you or assault something else. Successfully breaking and fleeing can monkey up your battle plan. Not to mention that, as Abusepuppy said, even high LD units fail shooting LD tests or pinning tests sometimes.

Fearless units will go exactly where you put them and do exactly what you want them to do or die trying. I think that reliability is worth taking wounds from combats you're losing.
Except you won't always go far enough to auto-regroup, especially with Tank Shock/losing combat. Pinning is less common, but likewise an issue.

The "always better" really seems to be a case of "is better in one circumstance." Obviously Combat Tactics magnifies the usefulness, but that's rolling another thing against Fearless. And, as Mango notes below, Fearless models never fuck up and do something you don't want them to. You never get shot and fall off the objective on the last turn, you never have a critical unit get pinned, etc.
One criticism of the article is that you clearly haven't tested out plague marines with 2 plasma guns. They aren't 2 immobile shots....they are 4 mobile shots, the equivalent of 2 autocannons at close range, and can also take down other infantry squads.

I love plasma gun wielding small squads, they can mow down infantry, and then jump out and assault with 15 attacks. 185pts (for 5+2 guns+rhino) isn't bad.

Overall I think that your article lacks a thorough look at the unit, and I think that you should play with plague marines. I mean you also didn't mention blight grenades as an above poster said.
8 replies · active 709 weeks ago
Just a note that they can't fire the PGs and assault in the same turn.
If you're double tapping your plasma, you're in 12" which means melta range. I just did some quick math, but if you're looking for wrecked or destroyed results, I think even a non-melta s8 ap1 shot is better than 2 s7 shots. Taking a plasma gun over a melta gun trades a huuuge amount of anti-tank threat and damage for an extra dead space marine per turn. I just don't see how that's worth it.

In addition, as blacksly points out, if your goal is to "mow down infantry" you can shoot the meltaguns and charge, something you can't do with the plasmaguns.
According to the math I just did, you maybe be right, at least where Rhinos are concerned:

Two Plasma Guns at 12" get
Shaken: 0.37, Stunned: 0.22, Weapon Destroyed: 0.22, Immobilized: 0.22, Wrecked: 0.15 , Explodes: 0.15

Two Melta Guns between 6"-12" get
Shaken: 0.08, Stunned: 0.15, Weapon Destroyed: 0.15, Immobilized: 0.15, Wrecked: 0.15, Explodes: 0.22

However, the marginal increase in exploding Rhinos is made up for by the increasing reliability in suppression, and damage: The Plasma guns have 1.32 expected value of causing damage while the Melta guns have 0.88, and Rhinos and Razorbacks are wrecked once they've suffered three Weapon Destroyed/Immobilized results. The extra cost is absorbed by being able to shoot beyond 12".

Shooting Melta Guns and Bolt Pistols and then charging with Plague Marines is not how one might "mow down infantry".
So against AV11, a single MG at 6-12 is more likely to destroy, but less likely to cause damage overall, but the caveat that the majority of those extra damage results for the PG are shakes, which mean little to a Rhino.

Those results skew more to the MG for av12, and don't take into account that the MG is ace within 6.

The MG is a far, far superior AT weapon. The plasmagun forces an extra cover save per turn. I'll take the melta

I was being tongue-in-cheek with the mow down comment.
I don't think your evaluation of the numbers is wholly accurate. A single Melta Gun is only marginally more likely to explode a Rhino, whereas the Plasma Gun is not only more reliable in causing at least some sort of damage thanks to twice the number of shots, but more likely to destroy the Rhino through cumulative damage results. That's why Autocannons are so great: they don't have AP1, but those two shots not only increase reliability, but the potential that non-Destroyed damage results can have. Even immobilizing a vehicle and shaking it is preferable to just immobilizing it or just shaking it.

Plus with Feel No Pain, the Plague Marines can really unload with the Plasma Guns.
you're picking one specific instance in the entire gamut of anti-tank and trying to argue that plasmaguns are somewhat comparable. Against av12, how do the numbers look? Inside 6"?
Against AV12, we see:

Two Plasma Guns at 12"
Shaken: 0.30, Stunned: 0.15, Weapon Destroyed: 0.15, Immobilized: 0.15, Wrecked: 0.08 , Explodes: 0.08

Two Melta Guns between 6"-12"
Shaken: 0.08, Stunned: 0.15, Weapon Destroyed: 0.15, Immobilized: 0.15, Wrecked: 0.15, Explodes: 0.15
Against AV11 again:

Two Melta Guns at 1"-6"
Shaken: 0.01, Stunned: 0.21, Weapon Destroyed: 0.21, Immobilized: 0.21, Wrecked: 0.20, Explodes: 0.40

Two Plasma Guns at 12"-24"
Shaken: 0.15, Stunned: 0.08, Weapon Destroyed: 0.08, Immobilized: 0.08, Wrecked: 0.04 , Explodes: 0.04

Two Melta Guns at 13+
Shaken: 0.00, Stunned: 0.00, Weapon Destroyed: 0.00, Immobilized: 0.00, Wrecked: 0.00, Explodes: 0.00

Two Plasma Guns against AV14
Shaken: 0.00, Stunned: 0.00, Weapon Destroyed: 0.00, Immobilized: 0.00, Wrecked: 0.00, Explodes: 0.00
So against AV12 you're getting twice as many destroyed and half as many shaken/stunned at the 6-12" range; that seems like a pretty good deal to me. Suppression is nice, but killing is better.
Plagues don't have bolt pistols.
1 reply · active 709 weeks ago
I think if you read your codex you'll find that you're wrong.
Very nice article! I believe you’ve really sum-up the pro/cons of PM very well! I still also disagree that dual plasma unit is not worth it. It is still a pretty good anti-tank (roughly as efficient as 2 Melta when in the 6-12’) while providing a nice boost vs MC, FNP unit,…of course it has then to be played also in a rhino. Having in mind that chaos can have melta in other slot (HS, elite or other troops) it is a viable option depending on the other slot.
Warboss Stalin's avatar

Warboss Stalin · 709 weeks ago

I disagree the PF is a waste. Sure it costs, but then there's always a chance you can actually kill that dread before he mashes your expensive plague squad..not to mention its one of the few weapons having I3 does not affect. The overall cost is about the same as 2.5 normal chaos marines, who probably would have died before you lose one Plague to ranged. Apart from plagues, we need to remember chaos does one thing better even than the gay tau high version: Plasma, and lots of it. A well-kitted Chosen or Havoc squad is like getting your ass shot off by the far too common melta vets, but with Armor 3 and Morale 10.....
5 replies · active 706 weeks ago
But if you're going for that, I'd rather get Melta, and lots of it. My "meltaspam" list has 26 meltaguns and 11 combi-meltas on the Rhinos. That's scary to more lists than a lot of Plasma and lacking the ability to break the targets out of their transports. Granted, if you face a Loganwing army with the Plasmaspam you have an auto-win, but you're more likely to face a Mech Spam list of some type, in which case the Plasma list is going to have a lot of issues.
Per squad the PF might be worth it, but the army as a whole suffers. As stated, the primary downside of PMs is the cost, and in this book it is one of the two primary issues you fight against when list building (the other is low long ranged firepower).

Remember, GREY KNIGHTS tend to cost less then CSM, and they at least have Coteaz and better weapons to help make up for their cost. Chaos.... no so much. You really can't afford Fists in a unit who doesn't really want to be in range to use them if it can afford it. I don't agree that Plagues should be swapped to CSM, but they should definitely avoid the fists.
Exactly artemi. That PF costs 40 points. That's half an Obliterator, or a whole spawn :)

You can't and shouldn't plan for the just in case walker CC with a 40 point upgrade. 5 point meltabombs, sure. Your squad has 2 meltaguns. Kill that dread before it can charge.
Immobilizing or stunning it is good too. Immobilized or stunned walkers are hit on a WS vs WS basis, making Melta Bombs very effective compared to Power Fists. Also don't forget the Krak Grenades.
Strong Hammer's avatar

Strong Hammer · 706 weeks ago

well if you're worried about gettign locked in cc with a dread, melta bombs would be a better option, would they not, i don't have the codex with me atm.
I would also want to have seen pointed out in the review the cost comparison of a Plague Marine Squad, now in Finecast as this should for every one except David Cameron/Barak Obama form a part of the decision as to how many you take in comparison to the costings of a Chaos Space Marine Squad.

I would have personally noted the practicality of a Plague Marine as a <12" range unit, supported by other units in the homefield.

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