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| Dakka |
Okay, back to the Crowe list series...which hasn't been touched in a long while. By now most people think Crowe MSU lists are the most broken thing ever and can't beat them wah wah wah. I'd really say it's a bit below what Grey Knights can really put out and whilst a solid list, has certain issues such as reliance on average dice to drop tanks, reliance on Purifiers as your only infantry to score, kill, maim, burn, hammer, shoot, slash and just about anything else you could think of. Whilst they are the ultimate generalists, they are very expensive because of this and you don't end up having a ton of them to throw at the enemy. When they do get thrown at the enemy because they aren't that bad at combat, you lose a bunch of anti-tank and anti-infantry firepower and depending upon how many Purifiers you lose, that firepower is gone forever. Not to mention you're paying 150 points for a character who cannot join squads *angry face.*
That being said, those units are Marines so pretty tough and do have great firepower and can seem terrifying to certain units in combat one on one. Add in the always efficient Psybacks and Psyfledreads and you can see why the list is good but not OMGWTFBBQCHEESE broken the Internet would like you to think. Now back when the codex first came out, I had to make a Purifier list because...well Purifiers were boss in terms of fluff. The problem of course was each list had some Purifiers and then some Dreads and then...well then what? This started me down the whole Psycoteaz path with large-ish Purifiers as Elites and then Henchmen as Troops to get that ever needed AP1 and overall army balance in. This was more to make a competitive list and it does quite well considering it's dropping those points into Purifiers.
So the idea of my good but fun-based Purifier list languished on the side-lines without really any thought until the recent e-mail I replied to regarding a Crowe and Coteaz list. Now this idea isn't exactly new but in terms of what I wanted for my Purifier based list (lots of Purifiers but not all Purifiers + Dreads) as a 'more fun' list, it was pretty much spot on. So what does Coteaz bring for us? Henchmen. And what do henchmen bring for us? Specifically ranged firepower (and when scoring can sit on objectives and thus relieve Purifiers of some pressures) and AP1 guns to help cover those days when Psycannons can't do diddly squat. It seems almost too simple to be true...
With that in mind let's make the list. We'll start with Crowe who is an annoying annoying man. He isn't that bad in combat and has some decent uses with the special stances but is annoying to actually get into combat without stealing someone's ride. We'll then add Coteaz and we have both the Henchmen and Purifier unlocks. Now a lot of people will say here that Coteaz seems like overkill and 250 points on HQ's isn't exactly negligible, particularly when they both unlock a new Troop choice who will thus be competing for spots. In this vein this is why running a Coteaz list with Purifiers in Elites is going to be more competitive but let's roll with this for now. Coteaz by himself is well worth the 100 points you pay for him - screw the henchmen Troops. Remember he makes your seizing chances better, drastically reduces your opponent's seizing chances, provides sanctuary and another hammerhand, has a hammer and gets free shooting against reserves coming on near him. In this regard we're not really forking out extra points for something we're only half using and since we will ultimately have more Purifier squads than Henchmen (and more than the three our Elites would normally allow), Crowe is okay as well. That's 250 points gone then.
Crowe
Coteaz
We'll then jump to our Heavy Support and get the obligatory Psyfledreads out of the way. We're not utilising Purgation squads here or Land Raiders so there really is no reason why we shouldn't take three. At 135 points a pop, they really are under-priced bastards of goodness. Three please for 405 points to provide us with hard to suppress, long-ranged fire support.
Dreadnought w/2x Twin-linked Autocannons, Psybolt Ammunition
Dreadnought w/2x Twin-linked Autocannons, Psybolt Ammunition
Dreadnought w/2x Twin-linked Autocannons, Psybolt Ammunition
655 all used up now so time to look to our Purifiers. To make Crowe useful we need to run at least four Purifiers. Other FoC moving characters can get away with less but Crowe really is the 'tax' in this case so we want to make sure we maximising his abilities whilst not over whelming ourselves with Purifiers. Plus I want Purifiers for this list so ya, more Purifiers. We'll go with the eight strong squad of super all-rounder. Two psycannons, one hammer and five halberds (plus six stormbolters). This allows the unit to take a few hits and still be scary in combat and deal with both infantry and tanks in combat or shooting. We'll add in a Rhino to get them places and allow them to shoot from the top which comes in at 267 points per unit. Four please!
8x Purifiers w/2x Psycannons, Daemon Hammer, 5x Halberds, Rhino
8x Purifiers w/2x Psycannons, Daemon Hammer, 5x Halberds, Rhino
8x Purifiers w/2x Psycannons, Daemon Hammer, 5x Halberds, Rhino
8x Purifiers w/2x Psycannons, Daemon Hammer, 5x Halberds, Rhino
That's 1723 points all gone so time to provide our two Henchmen units. We really want to take the scoring burden off the Purifiers and since they are very midfield oriented, backfield units are a good choice here. Whilst one could run with melta-acolytes to bring meltaguns to bear on the opponent more aggressively, they are best taken in multitudes to cover for their poor durability and BS3. For this reason we'll go with Jokaeros who can provide the melta-weaponry but also the ranged factor. We want two squads obviously and have 277 points to spend total or 138.5 per squad. We'll therefore start with two Jokaeros and a Psyback for 120 points. This gives us four ranged lascannons or multi-meltas, insurance we don't get the dud roll on the Jokaero's special table and two extra tank hulls which also help out our anti-infantry (and give Crowe a ride). We also have 18 points left per squad to buy cheap ablative wounds for the monkeys - in this case four Acolytes for each squad taking the squad total to 136 and leaves the whole army with five points.
2x Jokaero, 4x Warrior Acolyte, Razorback w/Psybolt Ammunition
2x Jokaero, 4x Warrior Acolyte, Razorback w/Psybolt Ammunition
And this leaves us bang on 1995 points. Let's look at the list as a whole:
Crowe
Coteaz
8x Purifiers w/2x Psycannons, Daemon Hammer, 5x Halberds, Rhino
8x Purifiers w/2x Psycannons, Daemon Hammer, 5x Halberds, Rhino
8x Purifiers w/2x Psycannons, Daemon Hammer, 5x Halberds, Rhino
8x Purifiers w/2x Psycannons, Daemon Hammer, 5x Halberds, Rhino
2x Jokaero, 4x Warrior Acolyte, Razorback w/Psybolt Ammunition
2x Jokaero, 4x Warrior Acolyte, Razorback w/Psybolt Ammunition
Dreadnought w/2x Twin-linked Autocannons, Psybolt Ammunition
Dreadnought w/2x Twin-linked Autocannons, Psybolt Ammunition
Dreadnought w/2x Twin-linked Autocannons, Psybolt Ammunition
Totals: 1995 points
46 infantry
9 vehicles
It's certainly lacking in some respects - the Purifiers are still carrying the load and can be overwhelmed (that's what you get when you try to run them like this in multiple squads) but Coteaz helps make them scarier in midfield (assault me through Sanctuary, go on) and the Henchmen take some of the scoring burden off of them and can provide some AP1 at range (four extra Lascannons or Multi-meltas is a nice addition as well of course) whilst also providing more vehicle hulls which add to the firepower of the army.
Again not super competitive but decent and certainly satisfying for my Purifier love :).
Logging you in...
timff8 · 706 weeks ago
O.o · 706 weeks ago
Sethis · 706 weeks ago
/provocative statement
giantkillertrl 37p · 706 weeks ago
-Sethis
I disagree with everything except "cheaper". First of all, purifiers aren't really a tankbusting unit. They're more a "torrent down troops and charge what's left" unit. Comparing them to melta henchmen is basically apples to oranges. Second, DCA can't do the same job as purifiers in CC because they don't have frags, so they have a much harder time going in after units in cover. Third, DCA (and acolytes) die to a stiff breeze if they accidentally win combat in your turn and are left out in the open, whereas purifiers have their beefier 3+ save to rely on.
Hope this helps!
-GK
Sethis · 706 weeks ago
And in 5th, that's a problem, because any unit capable of killing tanks is generally a better choice than one that can't. Melta Assassins have much more duality than Purifiers, especially in a Crusader/Storm Raven/Psyback that provides anti-infantry shooting.
> They're more a "torrent down troops and charge what's left" unit
DCA don't need to torrent anything to kill it on the charge, so that's a plus in my mind, as they are less vulnerable to casualty removal and combat tactics tricks. The rest of the army provides the torrent when it's needed.
> Comparing them to melta henchmen is basically apples to oranges.
I'm not, I'm comparing them to DCA with added meltas. Both are units with I6 power weapons and 2A profile at S4, which implies they'll be attacking similar targets. The difference is that DCA can reliably pop an APC before charging the contents. Purifiers can't.
> DCA can't do the same job as purifiers in CC because they don't have frags, so they have a much harder time going in after units in cover.
I don't often see my opponents good combat units hugging cover, and DCA rape mediocre-to-poor combat units regardless of when they strike. It's a minor setback, but for about 10 less points per model, I'll take that.
> DCA (and acolytes) die to a stiff breeze if they accidentally win combat in your turn and are left out in the open, whereas purifiers have their beefier 3+ save to rely on
Actually a 5++ and a 3+ aren't that dissimilar against a lot of shooting. Sure, you die easier to lasguns and boltguns, but a third of you survive plasma, melta, ordnance and anything else with AP3 or better where with purifiers you'd be losing every single model on 2+
/devils advocate
giantkillertrl 37p · 706 weeks ago
"And in 5th, [not being a tankbusting unit is] a problem, because any unit capable of killing tanks is generally a better choice than one that can't. Melta Assassins have much more duality than Purifiers ... "
-Sethis
Duality is certainly something to be appreciated, but so is reliably fulfilling a needed role within a cohesive force. I could go on about this for hours (and probably will write an article on it eventually) the short version is, while your army must be able to reliably break tanks in 5th, not every unit in your army needs meltaguns. We're talking about two very different units with two very different roles.
"... especially in a Crusader/Storm Raven/Psyback that provides anti-infantry shooting. "
-Sethis
So now we're talking about putting the unit in a 200+ point vehicle? Or a razorback it won't fit into? Again, apples to oranges.
"DCA don't need to torrent anything to kill it on the charge, so that's a plus in my mind, as they are less vulnerable to casualty removal and combat tactics tricks. The rest of the army provides the torrent when it's needed."
-Sethis
You say "The rest of the army provides the torrent when it's needed." I say "the rest of the army provides the tankbusting when it's needed". Again, we're talking about units that fill fundamentally different roles.
"I'm not [comparing purifiers to melta henchmen] I'm comparing them to DCA with added meltas. Both are units with I6 power weapons and 2A profile at S4, which implies they'll be attacking similar targets."
-Sethis
This is real issue here, I think. Purifiers and DCA should NOT be attacking the same targets. Each is a tool that has its own use. But you wouldn't attack a mob of 30 shootaboyz with DCA any more than you'd hit a nail with a screwdriver. Purifiers are a shooting unit with versatile CC capabilities. They are not a dedicated CC unit. DCA and melta henchmen form a dedicated CC unit with short-range tankbusting capability. Apples to oranges.
"DCA can reliably pop an APC before charging the contents. Purifiers can't."
-Sethis
Popping a transport and charging the contents with the same unit is never something you should rely on. This is a big, big problem for CC armies. There are just too many dice that have to go your way. If you wreck the transport, you now have difficult and dangerous terrain to cross to get to the unit inside. If you exploded it, you're charging into difficult terrain. Both of these situations pose problems for a unit without frags, and that's IF you successfully break the transport and IF you make the charge. If you fail the charge, you're left out in the open with T3, 5++ saves and LD8.
"I don't often see my opponents good combat units hugging cover, and DCA rape mediocre-to-poor combat units regardless of when they strike. It's a minor setback, but for about 10 less points per model, I'll take that."
-Sethis
Once again we're talking about different roles. "Good combat units" are things purifiers shoot, not assault. Units that aren't dedicated to CC are generally in cover or in a transport, shooting. And at T3 I6 5++, you won't convince me that DCA don't care if they strike last in combat.
"Actually a 5++ and a 3+ aren't that dissimilar against a lot of shooting. Sure, you die easier to lasguns and boltguns, but a third of you survive plasma, melta, ordnance and anything else with AP3 or better where with purifiers you'd be losing every single model on 2+"
-Sethis
"Dying easier" to lasguns and boltguns makes a massive difference. High Strength AP3 or better weaponry is the exception, not the rule. Forcing your opponent to decide where to put his high-strength, low-AP shots is a huge part of list construction. Henchmen (out in the open as we're discussing here) force no such choice. They die to bolters just as easily as plasma cannons.
Hope this helps!
-GK
chaosgerbil 48p · 706 weeks ago
You go from having a liability character to one that can join and buff units, and the GM opens a whole realm of tactical options. Sure you might miss out on a few purifier bodies, but you can round the (expensive) losses with psycannon purgation squads for shooting or strike squads for midfield. Or of course spamming dreads and henchman in transports... whatever you want really.
Since the GM is a Terminator I think he should go in a Land Raider Redeemer or Crusader with some DCA and other friends.
Rcketscientst · 706 weeks ago
Bro_Lo 82p · 706 weeks ago
mr_darkness 29p · 682 weeks ago
this makes him better, but the whole 'i cant join a unit' thing is still pretty harsh. its not too bad in your list cos he can always steal a transport from one of the acolyte squads,and then the monkeys can just shoot from the backfield.