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"...generalship should be informing list building." - Sir Biscuit

Saturday, October 8, 2011
Email in: 40k list design thought
Posted by
Unknown
"Howdy Kirby, Grand Master Raziel here. I've had a niggling little idea I thought you might like to respond to in your blog. I can't help but notice that you and the other regular bloggers on 3++ are fairly down on the versatile units. You seem to always push specialized units over versatile ones, and you never support spending points on further versatility. Buy a power fist for a Tactical Squad? 25 points wasted!
However, I think your design philosophy is colored by the fact that you and your other blog authors always build 2000pt lists. 2000pts gives you a lot of leeway - you can afford a large amount of units and indulge in specialized units to cover all the bases you need to cover. That's great for 2000pt lists, but not all games are 2000pt games. Until fairly recently, most of the tournaments I went to were 1500pts, and I even needed to have a 1000pt list for an escalation tourney I went to.
What I'm getting at here is that in smaller games, you can't always afford to sink a lot of points into a unit that only does one thing. When that's the case, versatile units that can positively contribute in all phases of the game start to shine more, because they don't necessarily need a specialist to come help them out all the time. The Tac Squad with the power fist, for instance - I wouldn't send it after a healty Hive Tyrant, but they can beat down a Tervigon pretty reliably, and if that Tyrant only has a wound or two left, I might send them after that, too. It requires more on-the-spot judgement than when playing with specialist units, because you have to have a realistic idea of what to expect from your units and a pretty good idea of what opposing units can do, but for an experienced player these should not be difficult judgements to make, and being able to rely on the generalists to handle most situations frees up whatever specialist units you might have for really critical taskings.
So, that's my thought for the day. I look forward to your response."
I know most of our lists concepts are designed at 2000 points though I try and make a point of discussing movements down to 1750 where possible (some lists obviously cannot). I don't really like to discuss lower points (such as 1500) as you really start to move out of balanced 5th edition territory then and when you get to 1000 and less, it's very easy to make unbalanced lists in an attempt to play the 'meta.'
What I meant by this (we'll take the more extreme example of 1000 points) is that you can have an army with something like 100+ infantry or 10+ tanks with certain armies but it's VERY hard to build a list which can deal with that amount of both infantry and tanks. At 1750+ you are more capable of dealing with the extremes of both lists types (i.e. lots of infantry and tanks) whilst not having extreme weaknesses. This is where balanced lists come into play. On the flip side, once you go past 2000 (i.e. 2500), this can be completely reversed where you can make lists that wouldn't work within the balanced environment but take advantage of something skewwy in the army book (i.e. nine Carnifexes, five Tervigons, sixty GKT, 90 FNP Blood Angels, etc.).
I will see if we can place more emphasis on the 1750 in our list building exercises though I don't imagine 1500 will be popping up a lot - more so only in response to reader e-mails. Being in Australia were 2000 isn't heard of (bloody comp mongers =D) I do make a lot of lists for 1750 that I intend to use but perhaps further emphasis could be placed upon this.
Anyway, what do others think?
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Email in: 40k list design thought
2011-10-08T17:33:00+11:00
Unknown
List Building|Warhammer 40k|
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Joe · 705 weeks ago
SageoftheTimes 77p · 705 weeks ago
Frazhar · 704 weeks ago
Mannstein · 705 weeks ago
@colincapelin · 705 weeks ago
abusepuppy 121p · 705 weeks ago
There are changes to be made at 1500pts and some versatile/generalist units DO perform well there- for example, the Raider/10 Warriors/Blaster/Splinter Cannon setup for DE is very useful at 1500, where the multifunctionality is at its prime, but in larger games it tends to lose out a lot because its resilience compared to a 5man means a lot less and an MSU strategy has better payoffs.
Taking the Tacticals + Powerfist example, however, it's still a poor buy at 1500, because your Tacticals will always be better off shooting (and allowing the other units in your army to shoot) than they will charging. If you run headlong into a Tervigon or Tyrant, not only are you going to lose a number of models, even with only one wound left there's a reasonable chance you won't bring it down- you would've been better off sitting still to hit it with Melta and Rapid Fire or whatnot.
Tacticals are good enough to be units that are actively bad in combat (Guardsmen, Scouts, Tau, etc), but even a Power Fist isn't going to swing the odds against anything else except maybe another Tactical Squad; better to spend those 25 (or 50, or 100, when you multiply across multiple squads) on something more in line with your list's core functionality. There's nothing wrong with being a generalist- indeed, that's what Tacticals and their ilk (Grey Hunters, Strike Squads) are, but that doesn't change the fact that you need to be careful where you spend your points.
I think you would be surprised how many lists can scale to 1500 or even lower when done properly- as I said, I play 1500 all the time, so I have lots of experience writing lists at that level. Utility is still utility at any level, it's just a matter of how much you can afford to take and how broadly you can afford to spread it.
Whitestar · 705 weeks ago
DarthSquig · 705 weeks ago
Hellgore · 704 weeks ago
WestRider · 705 weeks ago
abusepuppy 121p · 705 weeks ago
Mark D · 705 weeks ago
My viewpoint (I'm not trying to be anti-anything here), is that American's like their toys. And they also like to have all of them along with them when they play. As the original poster said, at 2000 points you could fit some of everything in - and to a degree, as Kirby said, you have to in order to match everything you might meet.
At 1500 points, you can't take the entire codex along with you, so you must make some sacrifices. And, as I believe, have to be a better general to make up for those sacrifices. If you only have 1-2 things to handle AV14 then you *must* protect those if you are facing a Landraider or Monolith. Of course, on the flip side, you are unlikely to be facing more than one of those unless your opponent has opted to *really* hamper themselves in other ways to take more than one. And that voluntary hampering then allows you another option to dealing with his army.
2000 allows you to plan your list to deal with everything. 1500 forces you to become more Strategic in your planning - what hole am I going to leave in my list on purpose, so what must I do Tactically to protect myself? It is a different game, which many people like, and many people do not like.
Being from Canada, we're stuck in the middle (kinda), in that for the most part we do not have the American viewpoint on toys, toys, toys - but alot of our tournaments take their leads from the US, or we're going to the US to play. Not that I'm trying to paint all Americans with that brush - but if you simply take a view of the interwebz you can see that - as Kirby said. Perhaps it is/was the influence of the first Bloggers/Posters who shaped the opinions of the masses towards bringing everything (at 2000) versus what the designers had in mind, but regardless - it is the reality in the US today and it will be difficult to shift.
I_and_I · 705 weeks ago
So, anybody fancy a game of Apocalypse?
abusepuppy 121p · 705 weeks ago
I love Apocalypse because I love being able to use EVERYTHING. 3000-4000pt games are actually pretty fun (as long as you get a bigger table) and if no one is bringing superheavies/legendary formations in abundance to ruin the party, it's not too hard to keep things fair.
AuretiousTaak 39p · 704 weeks ago
abusepuppy 121p · 704 weeks ago
AuretiousTaak 39p · 704 weeks ago
Garnet · 705 weeks ago
SageoftheTimes 77p · 705 weeks ago
loudanddeep 48p · 704 weeks ago
While I do really enjoy larger games, both for their scope and more unit synergies, 1500 does force better list building and better play in my opinion as well. Personally, I find 1750 or 1850 a good compromise, as you are still limited and have to make hard choices, but get a bit more room for units that might otherwise not make the cut.
AuretiousTaak 39p · 705 weeks ago
We're in Australia, there's not a lot of tournaments at 2,000pts more frequently the 1500pts or 1750pts brackets for comp/non-comp. One of the largest tournaments on the calendar - Arcanacon - is a mere 1200pts for example, but again lists aren't just discussed in articles published. Neither are tactics or any of the other things that articles cover, but the chat box (chat bawks :D ) covers a lot of these things too.
So I just want to point out to the emailer (Gran Master Raziel) that maybe they should spend more time in the chat box rather than making blanket statements of All the Blog Authors Only Ever Make 2,000pt Forces, because it's simply not true.
As to the versatility comments, again with the blanket statements, I think you should look at the role of a unit and then whether or not your own force is utilising 'redundancy of unit' or 'redundancy of role' and once you manage to identify that the flexibility and versatility of the relevant choices becomes more apparent. Stating that speciailised units are the only thing people take in an army as an author is a rediculous statement furthermore is the statement of not looking at the versatility of units and what they can bring with other options. Rather it's how effecrtive is the unit choice and what do I want it to do? Is it more effective to spend the points to add this option here or take it in another or identical form elsewhere in my list? You'll find that much of the time it's this latter list design concept that is emphasised rather then spending 25pts on a PFist here, we can utilise those points better elsewhere to make the army as a whole better and more effective. As the blog focuses on being as competitive as you can this is a rather key ideal to understand.
Garnet · 705 weeks ago
As for spending more time there, it's a lovely idea, but not everyone has a couple of hours spare to have a sprawling conversation about 40K. Or even if they do, they might not have the 'right' couple of hours, where the subject they want to talk about is being discussed by the people whose opinions they're interested in. The whole value of a blog is that the articles continue to exist, and can be referred to a day, a week, a month later. Conversations in the chat bawks are, for whatever value they may have to their participants, wholly ephemeral.
abusepuppy 121p · 705 weeks ago
If you want to see more non-2K lists... just say so? Kirby, myself, and the other authors are always looking for inspiration for articles, so feel free to email us if you have something you want to see more of. I get lots of suggestions from the chatbawks, but as you say, not everyone has the time to spend there, so we try to make ourselves accessible other ways as well. That only works if you say something to us, though.
(Also, I have never myself seen a tournament played below 1500 points, aside from a one-month experiment in our very small local tourney. I'm curious where you find 1K-1.5K to be the norm at, because even in the European counties I've talked to people at, it's mostly been 1500-1750.)
Garnet · 704 weeks ago
I completely agree, though, that you raise a fair counter-point about how much of the list content on this blog is reader-generated. Which is why I'll start flooding your inbox with 750 point army lists for critique right away, sir! ^_~
abusepuppy 121p · 704 weeks ago
And feel free to shoot me weird list requests/numbers, it breaks things up, which is always nice. :P 750 is actually a number I don't think I've ever written a list for, actually...
Nurglitch · 704 weeks ago
Desc440 · 704 weeks ago
billybox 52p · 705 weeks ago
I have a 1500 pt tournament coming up that is WYSIWYG and I'm having trouble coming up with enough Shuriken Cannons for my Eldar force, as I normally would just say "they're all Cannons" and call it a day. But that's my drama.
Axle · 705 weeks ago
@colincapelin · 705 weeks ago
Regarding the 1500 - 2000 discussion, its been done to death.
My choice , 1500 or at a pinch 1750 - never 20000. Your choices are fine too. My reason, its more tactical & its also not feeding the GW cow as much.
abusepuppy 121p · 705 weeks ago
1500-2000 are all plenty balanced and work just fine, it's just a matter of how the focus falls and which codices benefit to what degree. Eldar, 'Nids, Tau, and DE all do well at lower point values, while IG, BA, and GK all tend to scale upwards quite well. Smaller games tend to involve very tightly-packed lists, but by the same token larger games ask you to make better use of your FoC and open up options for builds that are simply not possible in small games. Neither is more about skill, they just involve different kinds of decisions.
Garnet · 704 weeks ago
abusepuppy 121p · 704 weeks ago
Remember that everyone is making those minimum investments as well- a Space Marine player may spend almost 500pts on just his HQ + 2 Troops, so Tau get off comparatively easily. It's been a while, but I believe my 1K Tau list was something like:
Shas'el (Fireknife), 2 Crisis (DeathDrone), 2 Crisis (Deathdrone), 2 Crisis (Fireknife), 6 FW, 10 Kroot + 3 Hounds, 10 Kroot + 3 Hounds, 4 Pathfinders + Devilfish (DP), Piranha (FB, TA), 1 Broadside (ASS), 1 Broadside (ASS)
PiranhaBurger · 705 weeks ago
I don't have any problems with 2k per se, but forums and blog really like to gabber on about competitiveness and tight points at 2K or above despite such points levels dramatically altering what does and doesn't work. A good example is mech guard (vendettas or chimeras, it doesn't really matter) - at 1500 it cannot hit critical mass without being nothing BUT chimeras and vets and as such is deprived of its long range support. Same goes for GK - you cannot built a autoocannon mortis dreadnaught (its a real term, screw the stupid psylfemen moniker) army as 6 dreads eat up in the region of 900 points, that does not leave enough points to have an army that functions properly.
Garnet · 705 weeks ago
althathir · 705 weeks ago
As far as future lists go It would be nice if at the end you mentioned what your first cuts would be and why. Just to see the thought process behind your choices.
abusepuppy 121p · 705 weeks ago
Ilmarinen · 705 weeks ago
loudanddeep 48p · 705 weeks ago
It forces a lot of tough choices, and better play; as units have to be used to their fullest capability and there is less margin of error.
I would REALLY love to see more lists done as:
Here is the 1500, at 1850 add this, and here is the 2000 version.
thank you for the post.
SageoftheTimes 77p · 705 weeks ago
NiQ · 705 weeks ago
Desc440 · 704 weeks ago
G_M_Raziel 32p · 704 weeks ago
I'll freely admit I haven't looked at each and every single army list on the blog, because I'm not that interested in all the armies in the system, but of those I did look at, I can't think of any that were much less than 2000pts. So, I don't think I was entirely unfair.
G_M_Raziel 32p · 704 weeks ago
That said, if I were trying to make a competitive 1000pt list, I'd have to apply a whole different set of principles than the ones used to create the 2000pt lists most frequently seen here. I think low-points list building is as important a skill to master as high-points list building, maybe more so, because you have to make more difficult decisions.
abusepuppy 121p · 704 weeks ago
seiterarch 51p · 704 weeks ago
Compounded to this problem is the normal distribution of dice rolls. An abnormal string of them will have a far more game changing effect in smaller games and, whilst we're not playing chess or go, neither are we wanting a game where you toss a coin to win (overstating the problem, yes, but it's only an example). In general, too much randomness is a bad thing (8th ed fantasy anyone?).
Anyhoo... That's just my opinion on the matter. Personally, 1750-2000 is good and 1500, 2500 are the outer bands. GW may playtest at 1500, but their track record on game balance isn't exactly smooth eh?
Mark D · 704 weeks ago
To draw a sports analogy - it is like the Salary Cap. If you have unlimited money to spend on a sports team you can cherry pick all the best players regardless of their salaries and have a "dream team". If you have a Cap, then you must pick and choose carefully and learn to utilize your less well known players in cooperation with your one or two stars.
So if GW is "playtesting" at 1500 they might simply discount these kinds of "super-builds" as valid, balanced lists because they only work at the top ends of lists. To them, in "regular" games they don't work well... so in their design-minds they don't have to worry about them. If the game is designed to operate at 1500 points, then the unit point pricing is designed to take up a certain % amount of space in a 1500 point list. If you allow 2000 points, then you are skewing how much of a % that unit takes of the list thus skewing its effectiveness. A 900 point Paladin+IC unit is a huge investment in a 1500 list, but much less of one in a 2000 point list.
abusepuppy 121p · 704 weeks ago
Some rocks get better at 1500, like the twin Fexstars, but most of them get a lot worse.
The note on dice probabilities is entirely correct, though- you have fewer models to pull off the table in 1500, so losing a few of them can be a much bigger blow to your strategy.
Val · 704 weeks ago
Neil · 704 weeks ago
chaosgerbil 48p · 704 weeks ago