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Saturday, October 8, 2011

Email in: 40k list design thought



"Howdy Kirby, Grand Master Raziel here. I've had a niggling little idea I thought you might like to respond to in your blog. I can't help but notice that you and the other regular bloggers on 3++ are fairly down on the versatile units. You seem to always push specialized units over versatile ones, and you never support spending points on further versatility. Buy a power fist for a Tactical Squad? 25 points wasted!

However, I think your design philosophy is colored by the fact that you and your other blog authors always build 2000pt lists. 2000pts gives you a lot of leeway - you can afford a large amount of units and indulge in specialized units to cover all the bases you need to cover. That's great for 2000pt lists, but not all games are 2000pt games. Until fairly recently, most of the tournaments I went to were 1500pts, and I even needed to have a 1000pt list for an escalation tourney I went to.


What I'm getting at here is that in smaller games, you can't always afford to sink a lot of points into a unit that only does one thing. When that's the case, versatile units that can positively contribute in all phases of the game start to shine more, because they don't necessarily need a specialist to come help them out all the time. The Tac Squad with the power fist, for instance - I wouldn't send it after a healty Hive Tyrant, but they can beat down a Tervigon pretty reliably, and if that Tyrant only has a wound or two left, I might send them after that, too. It requires more on-the-spot judgement than when playing with specialist units, because you have to have a realistic idea of what to expect from your units and a pretty good idea of what opposing units can do, but for an experienced player these should not be difficult judgements to make, and being able to rely on the generalists to handle most situations frees up whatever specialist units you might have for really critical taskings.

So, that's my thought for the day. I look forward to your response."


I know most of our lists concepts are designed at 2000 points though I try and make a point of discussing movements down to 1750 where possible (some lists obviously cannot). I don't really like to discuss lower points (such as 1500) as you really start to move out of balanced 5th edition territory then and when you get to 1000 and less, it's very easy to make unbalanced lists in an attempt to play the 'meta.'

What I meant by this (we'll take the more extreme example of 1000 points) is that you can have an army with something like 100+ infantry or 10+ tanks with certain armies but it's VERY hard to build a list which can deal with that amount of both infantry and tanks. At 1750+ you are more capable of dealing with the extremes of both lists types (i.e. lots of infantry and tanks) whilst not having extreme weaknesses. This is where balanced lists come into play. On the flip side, once you go past 2000 (i.e. 2500), this can be completely reversed where you can make lists that wouldn't work within the balanced environment but take advantage of something skewwy in the army book (i.e. nine Carnifexes, five Tervigons, sixty GKT, 90 FNP Blood Angels, etc.).

I will see if we can place more emphasis on the 1750 in our list building exercises though I don't imagine 1500 will be popping up a lot - more so only in response to reader e-mails. Being in Australia were 2000 isn't heard of (bloody comp mongers =D) I do make a lot of lists for 1750 that I intend to use but perhaps further emphasis could be placed upon this.

Anyway, what do others think?

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1500 is the GW 'standard' in the UK
2 replies · active 704 weeks ago
Not realy, agreed it's not as good as 1750 or 2k but its not bad.
Mannstein's avatar

Mannstein · 705 weeks ago

1500 also happens to be the game size the studio test things with, allegedly. I've certainly found its a hell of a lot harder to build killer lists within the points limit. In fact, I suspect that by using a 1500pt standard, a lot of the interwebz favourite "game balance" gripes would go away if more games were played at this level. Although, a whole new bunch would crop up due to shoddy rules, but then it wouldn't be 40k without them. :S
Actually I almost always play 1500 outside of tournaments, but I write lists online in the 1750-2000pt range because that's the most common values I see requested (as that tends to be the standard in the U.S.).

There are changes to be made at 1500pts and some versatile/generalist units DO perform well there- for example, the Raider/10 Warriors/Blaster/Splinter Cannon setup for DE is very useful at 1500, where the multifunctionality is at its prime, but in larger games it tends to lose out a lot because its resilience compared to a 5man means a lot less and an MSU strategy has better payoffs.

Taking the Tacticals + Powerfist example, however, it's still a poor buy at 1500, because your Tacticals will always be better off shooting (and allowing the other units in your army to shoot) than they will charging. If you run headlong into a Tervigon or Tyrant, not only are you going to lose a number of models, even with only one wound left there's a reasonable chance you won't bring it down- you would've been better off sitting still to hit it with Melta and Rapid Fire or whatnot.

Tacticals are good enough to be units that are actively bad in combat (Guardsmen, Scouts, Tau, etc), but even a Power Fist isn't going to swing the odds against anything else except maybe another Tactical Squad; better to spend those 25 (or 50, or 100, when you multiply across multiple squads) on something more in line with your list's core functionality. There's nothing wrong with being a generalist- indeed, that's what Tacticals and their ilk (Grey Hunters, Strike Squads) are, but that doesn't change the fact that you need to be careful where you spend your points.

I think you would be surprised how many lists can scale to 1500 or even lower when done properly- as I said, I play 1500 all the time, so I have lots of experience writing lists at that level. Utility is still utility at any level, it's just a matter of how much you can afford to take and how broadly you can afford to spread it.
1 reply · active 705 weeks ago
Here here!
1500 tends to be the standard around here (along with a ban on SCs), too. Here being northern Germany.
1 reply · active 704 weeks ago
Yeah, and I think at least the ban on SCs is certainly not up-to-date. I'm going to a tournament in bavaria next saturday where they finally entered 5th edition and letting people play their codices. But I haven't seen any 1500 pts tournaments in southern germany lately.
WestRider's avatar

WestRider · 705 weeks ago

2K is the standard around here, but after I recently played a few 1500 Point Games for the first time in a while, I found I liked it quite a bit better. List Building was a more interesting exercise when I didn't have room to fit in every last thing I wanted, and, of course, the Games go noticeably faster, too.
1 reply · active 705 weeks ago
Faster games are the main reason we play 1500; we even experimented with 1000pts for a while, but found that was just too restrictive for most people to have a lot of fun with.
I believe it is a US versus non-US viewpoint. Interestingly enough I pointed this exact issue out to Steltek not too long ago and got a really nasty reply - the gist of it was "I don't care what you think, 2000 points is what I think should be played. Period."

My viewpoint (I'm not trying to be anti-anything here), is that American's like their toys. And they also like to have all of them along with them when they play. As the original poster said, at 2000 points you could fit some of everything in - and to a degree, as Kirby said, you have to in order to match everything you might meet.

At 1500 points, you can't take the entire codex along with you, so you must make some sacrifices. And, as I believe, have to be a better general to make up for those sacrifices. If you only have 1-2 things to handle AV14 then you *must* protect those if you are facing a Landraider or Monolith. Of course, on the flip side, you are unlikely to be facing more than one of those unless your opponent has opted to *really* hamper themselves in other ways to take more than one. And that voluntary hampering then allows you another option to dealing with his army.

2000 allows you to plan your list to deal with everything. 1500 forces you to become more Strategic in your planning - what hole am I going to leave in my list on purpose, so what must I do Tactically to protect myself? It is a different game, which many people like, and many people do not like.

Being from Canada, we're stuck in the middle (kinda), in that for the most part we do not have the American viewpoint on toys, toys, toys - but alot of our tournaments take their leads from the US, or we're going to the US to play. Not that I'm trying to paint all Americans with that brush - but if you simply take a view of the interwebz you can see that - as Kirby said. Perhaps it is/was the influence of the first Bloggers/Posters who shaped the opinions of the masses towards bringing everything (at 2000) versus what the designers had in mind, but regardless - it is the reality in the US today and it will be difficult to shift.
8 replies · active 704 weeks ago
As an American from beautiful sunny (and crime ridden) Florida I can say you absolutely hit my individual mentality on the head. I love my toys, I love my 2000 point armies, and I hate having to take stuff out of a list to make it smaller. Though your statement does not apply to everybody, it totally applies to me.

So, anybody fancy a game of Apocalypse?
:3
I love Apocalypse because I love being able to use EVERYTHING. 3000-4000pt games are actually pretty fun (as long as you get a bigger table) and if no one is bringing superheavies/legendary formations in abundance to ruin the party, it's not too hard to keep things fair.
2,000pts is apocalypse...wow, 15,000pts a player is apocalypse out my way. :P
Eh, you can do them both. I did a game with 10K on each side (myself and one other guy, but fielding our entire collections of a particular army) and I've done smaller games. Max-size games can take a LONG time, so it's often fun to just play with more than you can normally use without going completely gonzo.
I know, I've enough Tyranids now from all editions of the game that once painted I'll be able to participate in one of these huge games, combining with the 'Nids of my mates' collection we're looking at 20-30k points of Nids...which would be an impressively awesome game to play in to be honest. :)
Nicely said. And a quick 'whoo!' for a fellow Canuck!
And yet you get that with 1.75 or 1.85k. 2k can feel a bit fat, I'll agree, but 1.5k is spread a bit thin. My assessment is that points should be more towards 150p increments, then 250p. 2.5k is far too big and anything below 1.5k is too small. I think 1.85k is one of the most balanced points levels, actually.
^ This.

While I do really enjoy larger games, both for their scope and more unit synergies, 1500 does force better list building and better play in my opinion as well. Personally, I find 1750 or 1850 a good compromise, as you are still limited and have to make hard choices, but get a bit more room for units that might otherwise not make the cut.
I'd like to point out that NOT ALL the blog authors here ALWAYS write 2,000pt lists. I for one rarely play at 2,000pts preferring levels where it's more challenging where you can't always have your cake and eat it too. I know I've not done a solid article for a while but one of the strengths of 3++ is the new black is the fact that it's not just the articles but the Chat Box where authors and regulars discuss concepts and lists all the time. And it's not always 2,000pts, it varies dramatically usually from 1500/1750/1850/2000pt forces, but at times less depending on what people ask. Today we had someone asking for advice about how to deal with 6 twin scatter laser war walkers in a 500pt combat patrol setting as a case in point.

We're in Australia, there's not a lot of tournaments at 2,000pts more frequently the 1500pts or 1750pts brackets for comp/non-comp. One of the largest tournaments on the calendar - Arcanacon - is a mere 1200pts for example, but again lists aren't just discussed in articles published. Neither are tactics or any of the other things that articles cover, but the chat box (chat bawks :D ) covers a lot of these things too.

So I just want to point out to the emailer (Gran Master Raziel) that maybe they should spend more time in the chat box rather than making blanket statements of All the Blog Authors Only Ever Make 2,000pt Forces, because it's simply not true.

As to the versatility comments, again with the blanket statements, I think you should look at the role of a unit and then whether or not your own force is utilising 'redundancy of unit' or 'redundancy of role' and once you manage to identify that the flexibility and versatility of the relevant choices becomes more apparent. Stating that speciailised units are the only thing people take in an army as an author is a rediculous statement furthermore is the statement of not looking at the versatility of units and what they can bring with other options. Rather it's how effecrtive is the unit choice and what do I want it to do? Is it more effective to spend the points to add this option here or take it in another or identical form elsewhere in my list? You'll find that much of the time it's this latter list design concept that is emphasised rather then spending 25pts on a PFist here, we can utilise those points better elsewhere to make the army as a whole better and more effective. As the blog focuses on being as competitive as you can this is a rather key ideal to understand.
6 replies · active 704 weeks ago
While it's nice that the chat bawks sees its share of discussions outside the 2K range, be fair; the chat bawks is not the blog, and people who chat in it are not authoring an article for this blog. So the emailer's point, that the authors of blog posts seem to pretty reliably stick close to the 2K range, still stands pretty solidly. Heck, your own rebuttal had you claiming that a 'dramatic' variation was between 1500 and 2K points, which still isn't all that huge considering that a lot of non-US, non-Ard Boyz-style tournaments are more in the 1K to 1500 range. I mean, you even say your own big local touranment is 1200, which I can't say is a points level I've ever seen discussed; surely you must be curious about what kind of advice people might have for playing at that rather particular level?

As for spending more time there, it's a lovely idea, but not everyone has a couple of hours spare to have a sprawling conversation about 40K. Or even if they do, they might not have the 'right' couple of hours, where the subject they want to talk about is being discussed by the people whose opinions they're interested in. The whole value of a blog is that the articles continue to exist, and can be referred to a day, a week, a month later. Conversations in the chat bawks are, for whatever value they may have to their participants, wholly ephemeral.
Again, I usually write lists for under 2K points, although it varies dramatically- usually the authors are writing lists for a tournament (in which case we have no real say in what points value to use), for someone who is asking for advice (ditto), or throwing out sample lists (which is the only case where we get to have a say.)

If you want to see more non-2K lists... just say so? Kirby, myself, and the other authors are always looking for inspiration for articles, so feel free to email us if you have something you want to see more of. I get lots of suggestions from the chatbawks, but as you say, not everyone has the time to spend there, so we try to make ourselves accessible other ways as well. That only works if you say something to us, though.

(Also, I have never myself seen a tournament played below 1500 points, aside from a one-month experiment in our very small local tourney. I'm curious where you find 1K-1.5K to be the norm at, because even in the European counties I've talked to people at, it's mostly been 1500-1750.)
The 1-1.5K tournaments are standard-ish for my FLGS, Black Knight Games. In the last year or so they've had two 1K tournaments, two 1K doubles tournaments, and the four-battle escalation league. As for where we're at, I stom paround Southern Ontario, Canada. What that means for the meta scene I can't say, just my two cents.

I completely agree, though, that you raise a fair counter-point about how much of the list content on this blog is reader-generated. Which is why I'll start flooding your inbox with 750 point army lists for critique right away, sir! ^_~
Interesting, I hadn't heard much about Canadahammer prior to this, so it makes for a unique data point.

And feel free to shoot me weird list requests/numbers, it breaks things up, which is always nice. :P 750 is actually a number I don't think I've ever written a list for, actually...
Not all Canadians are equal. Ottawa, where I was most recently, the tournament I got to play in was 1850pts (I think), and the tournament I have coming up in Halifax in November is 1700pts.
Nurglitch, that tourney in Ottawa, was that Game Summit Skirmish? If so, I was there too!
I'm in California, and it seems like 1500 is the most common points level here, though I'd say it's pretty evenly divided between 1500-1750, with points higher and lower being less common.

I have a 1500 pt tournament coming up that is WYSIWYG and I'm having trouble coming up with enough Shuriken Cannons for my Eldar force, as I normally would just say "they're all Cannons" and call it a day. But that's my drama.
1850 standard here.
4 replies · active 704 weeks ago
Actually 1850 is one of the more common points values I've seen, even if it does look like an odd number. 1500, 1750, 1850, and 2000 are basically the "normal" numbers, with 'Ard Boyz (2.5K) and the rarer 1K values being the outliers.

1500-2000 are all plenty balanced and work just fine, it's just a matter of how the focus falls and which codices benefit to what degree. Eldar, 'Nids, Tau, and DE all do well at lower point values, while IG, BA, and GK all tend to scale upwards quite well. Smaller games tend to involve very tightly-packed lists, but by the same token larger games ask you to make better use of your FoC and open up options for builds that are simply not possible in small games. Neither is more about skill, they just involve different kinds of decisions.
I'm not sure I'd agree that Tau do well at lower points values. While I'm not a particularly strong player, I admit I often find my cadre struggling around 1K, simply because so much of our decent killing power is tied up in 'suits, and 'suits get pricey, quick. Three fireknives, basically essential for dealing with any kind of solid MEq force, are nearly twenty percent of the total list, right there, and that's one, not particularly resilient, unit. Toss a fireknife 'El in there, and you're at nearly a quarter of the army in one squad.
In smaller games you don't necessarily need to bring as many Fireknives, as you'll have more space to maneuver and fewer enemy transports to deal with, so Deathrains (especially with the TLMP + DC and Gun Drone config) can work quite well. Tau have cheap troops, which lets them bypass the minimum requirements easily and start investing in "good stuff" as quickly as possible; they also tend to run out of EL and FA slots by 1500 or 1750, which is why higher numbers hurt them.

Remember that everyone is making those minimum investments as well- a Space Marine player may spend almost 500pts on just his HQ + 2 Troops, so Tau get off comparatively easily. It's been a while, but I believe my 1K Tau list was something like:

Shas'el (Fireknife), 2 Crisis (DeathDrone), 2 Crisis (Deathdrone), 2 Crisis (Fireknife), 6 FW, 10 Kroot + 3 Hounds, 10 Kroot + 3 Hounds, 4 Pathfinders + Devilfish (DP), Piranha (FB, TA), 1 Broadside (ASS), 1 Broadside (ASS)
PiranhaBurger's avatar

PiranhaBurger · 705 weeks ago

1500 Is the gold standard - a sign that GW are actually testing their rules and refining the design goals is that the 40k system now does scale to above and below 1500 pretty well. 3rd ed was pretty much 1500 or gtfo (hence why you'll note a lot of special characters then were only allowed at 2k).

I don't have any problems with 2k per se, but forums and blog really like to gabber on about competitiveness and tight points at 2K or above despite such points levels dramatically altering what does and doesn't work. A good example is mech guard (vendettas or chimeras, it doesn't really matter) - at 1500 it cannot hit critical mass without being nothing BUT chimeras and vets and as such is deprived of its long range support. Same goes for GK - you cannot built a autoocannon mortis dreadnaught (its a real term, screw the stupid psylfemen moniker) army as 6 dreads eat up in the region of 900 points, that does not leave enough points to have an army that functions properly.
Around my area the tournaments are mostly in the 1K range, maybe going as high as 1500. There's a 500 point escalation league, four fights starting at 1K and going to 2500, but those last two levels are pretty much never seen otherwise.
1850 is gaining a lot of popularity, but 2000 seems to be the local standard right now. I don't have a lot of experience with 1750 but 1850 games seem alot faster than 2000 point games even though its only 150 point difference. At 1500 it seems like the older armies struggle a bit more because of the emphasis on troops in fifth.

As far as future lists go It would be nice if at the end you mentioned what your first cuts would be and why. Just to see the thought process behind your choices.
1 reply · active 705 weeks ago
That 150pts makes a surprising amount of difference, yeah. 1750 and 1850 have really grown on me as "compromise" values that allow you to bring more stuff to the table, yet aren't quite as packed-full as a 2K game sometimes is.
1500 is the most popular with my gaming group in the UK.
While I enjoy larger games, both for their scope, and the ability to better build synergies within lists, 1500 seems to be the most common in my area as well.

It forces a lot of tough choices, and better play; as units have to be used to their fullest capability and there is less margin of error.

I would REALLY love to see more lists done as:
Here is the 1500, at 1850 add this, and here is the 2000 version.

thank you for the post.
1 reply · active 705 weeks ago
Kirby's done this on occasion. I'll talk with him about it, see what he thinks (just consider he goes through several articles a day at time, possibly more, so he might not have time to do everything). I like the 1.85k area, though.
Where I live in the US we tend to play 1500 or 2k. 500-1k if were doing some team stuff.
Even at 1500 pts, I'd rather have specialised units than generalists. 3 x Razor ASM w/ Fist + melta supported by 5 sniper scouts with cloaks and missile or 2 x 10 Tacs with fist, melta and missile in Razors? I know which I would pick in a heartbeat.
Original emailer here. First of all, I'd like to thank Kirby, Abusepuppy, AuretiousTaak, and any other blog authors whose names I didn't recognise for taking the time to respond to my email. And, of course, thank you guys who are not blog authors for your comments as well.

I'll freely admit I haven't looked at each and every single army list on the blog, because I'm not that interested in all the armies in the system, but of those I did look at, I can't think of any that were much less than 2000pts. So, I don't think I was entirely unfair.
I don't think my original point is invalid, either. Back on Warseer, I tried to advise someone on how to make a 1000pt list using the principles supported here on 3++, and I found it just wouldn't work. Fortunately, the person I was trying to give advice to was playing a doubles tournament, and both he and his partner were using Blood Angels. His partner was going all-jumpers and he wanted to provide fire support, so I suggested playing the Hammer part of the Blood Hammer list. That came together okay, so there was a happy ending, at least.

That said, if I were trying to make a competitive 1000pt list, I'd have to apply a whole different set of principles than the ones used to create the 2000pt lists most frequently seen here. I think low-points list building is as important a skill to master as high-points list building, maybe more so, because you have to make more difficult decisions.
1 reply · active 704 weeks ago
You can apply many/most of the principles, but you have to do it in very different ways, and it's important to realize that what you'll be expecting is very different. You can still aim for mobility, flexibility, duality, etc, but how you achieve them and to what degree you afford them are going to be drastically changed.
Lots of people are saying that 1500 requires you to make more decisions about what you include in your army, but quite often IMHO this ends up being synonymous to making decisions about what your army can cope with. This makes rock lists and circles of metagame all the more prevalent and removes quite a lot of the actual tactics from the game in my opinion.

Compounded to this problem is the normal distribution of dice rolls. An abnormal string of them will have a far more game changing effect in smaller games and, whilst we're not playing chess or go, neither are we wanting a game where you toss a coin to win (overstating the problem, yes, but it's only an example). In general, too much randomness is a bad thing (8th ed fantasy anyone?).

Anyhoo... That's just my opinion on the matter. Personally, 1750-2000 is good and 1500, 2500 are the outer bands. GW may playtest at 1500, but their track record on game balance isn't exactly smooth eh?
2 replies · active 704 weeks ago
Game balance is a funny thing. When you change the points level, things can either slide towards balanced or imbalanced quite quickly. Many of the "super-builds" of the interwebz require 2000 points to operate well. Leafblowers don't really work that well at 1500, okay at 2000 and best at 2500. Venomspam and Razorwolves scale, but either lose long-range punch rapidly by eliminating LF squads and Ravagers or lose scoring units to keep those squads. Draigowing doesn't work well at all at 1500 because you either have your 1 main Rock and almost no support - or you keep your support and weaken the Rock to near impotence. Same with Loganwing.

To draw a sports analogy - it is like the Salary Cap. If you have unlimited money to spend on a sports team you can cherry pick all the best players regardless of their salaries and have a "dream team". If you have a Cap, then you must pick and choose carefully and learn to utilize your less well known players in cooperation with your one or two stars.

So if GW is "playtesting" at 1500 they might simply discount these kinds of "super-builds" as valid, balanced lists because they only work at the top ends of lists. To them, in "regular" games they don't work well... so in their design-minds they don't have to worry about them. If the game is designed to operate at 1500 points, then the unit point pricing is designed to take up a certain % amount of space in a 1500 point list. If you allow 2000 points, then you are skewing how much of a % that unit takes of the list thus skewing its effectiveness. A 900 point Paladin+IC unit is a huge investment in a 1500 list, but much less of one in a 2000 point list.
In some ways, yes, and in others, no. A Rock list (like double-Land Raider) at 2000pts can afford some support to shut down enemy firepower and keep itself running. At 1500... you're going to be stretching just to fit it in. It's going to be a true one-trick pony, and if your opponent has Melta or good blocking techniques, they'll steamroll it.

Some rocks get better at 1500, like the twin Fexstars, but most of them get a lot worse.

The note on dice probabilities is entirely correct, though- you have fewer models to pull off the table in 1500, so losing a few of them can be a much bigger blow to your strategy.
I'll admit, I basically ignore most list posts because they're always 2000, scaling to 1750. 1500, maybe 1750 or 1850 in a big game, is the standard here in New Jersey, USA.
Locally, the most popular size is 1500, 1200 is popular too. I have no idea why this is, but it is.. I've played 9 tournaments in the past 12 months, they were 3x1200, 3x1500, 2x1750, 1x2000.
The standard in Washington seems to be 2000 for events, 1500-2000 for casual.

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