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Sunday, October 16, 2011

Space Wolves - Asking the Questions That Matter In List Design, Part 2



Note: I use a lot of very dominant wording in my articles, as ever these articles reflect my own views of the game just as every author out there does through their own work. There is no right or wrong way to play, there are better ways and there are alternative ways to achieve the same goal. If you have issue with how I am presenting the articles, man up and look past the wording to the core concepts being communicated and extrapolate them to your own game. Note 2: Some people demanded a better scale of picture of me, hence this one from 3.5 years ago with me slouching in front of a tank of some sort at paintball.



Introduction.

In my introductory article, I presented two differing excerpts from a Space Wolf army and how they were written in the army list. The difference being the player who splits their Wolf Guard (WG) off to several units in the list itself and the player whom keeps the WG as a single entity. The point which all of one commenter got with this was that on the one hand you have the player who splits his Wolf Guard off to all the units as standard without variance in that list all the time regardless of whether or not those roles and those combinations are actually the best suited roles and combinations for the army against the enemy army. The Player who keeps his WG in a single unit is more inclined to look at the army in a flexible mindset allowing for adaptation from game to game in how they assign their WG to best counter the enemy army list. It is true that some armies have but one way to set up and displace their Wolf Guard, but these armies are bland and predictable, I look at them and know what to target with my target priority off the bat, how to best counter them because they are 2-dimensional and predictable. As an opposed general you will know where the WG go in any case, but the Space Wolf Player gets to make their mind up at the start of every game based on what their opponents list is comprised of (explored more below). We're not playing another marine list where units are fixed in stone, we're playing space wolves and space wolves are an ever changing force allowing the general at their head to play a much more flexible army off of the same army list time after time without change. This is essential in a Tournament Setting. In this article, I look at Wolf Guard in a bit more depth, in particular focusing on the multiple roles that each individual Wolf Guard model should be able to perform during a game and how each role that particular WG is assigned to will affect the play style and approach to each individual game despite being the same army list.

But First, Some Abbreviations!


People complain about the length of my articles, I've limited that somewhat by splitting this into many shorter articles, but without the abbreviations it starts to get longer and longer really fast. As AbusePuppy stated previously, when you play 40k long enough and you start to know what other amries can use, youc an predict the shorthand and more, shorthand becomes an easy an acceptable norm of list writing. People will complain either way so you all get stuck with Abbreviations.

Grey Hunter = GH
Wolf Guard = WG
Long Fang = LF
Rune Priest = RP
Meltagun = MG
Combi-meltas = CbM's
Power Armour = PA
Tactical Dreadnought Armour aka Terminator Armour = TDA
Cyclone Missile Launcher = CML
Power Weapon = PW
Power Fist = PFist
Storm Bolter = SB
Bolt Pistol = BP
Close Combat Weapon = CCW
Chooser of the Slain (CotS)
Living Lightning = LL
Jaws of the World Wolf = JotWW

Where Do We Start?

So this is where we want a game of Warhammer 40,000 and we have a space wolf collection and want a game, so sit down and start writing an army list. We're aiming to make a very flexible all comers list that is competitive and can compete with anything the enemy throws at us, so making a list that is MSU Mech minded isn't going to necessarily be the best solution. Whilst several reputable sources on the internet would have you believe that MSU unit spam redundancy is a core and unyielding principle to good list design, and whilst in many cases it is, this is not the case as a whole and most certainly not as a definitive model for list construction. What does MSU Mech spam do Vs a massive horde army for example - many people laugh it off and say they can handle a horde army with all their flamers and can't be touched in their metal boxes, and if this is the case why do people like Kirby win with Tyranids or Orks where they have a horde force either at the start or as soon as the Tervigons start crapping out termagant units? In a nutshell, it's because a lot of these so called epitomes of list design that the internet proclaims as the be all and end all of an army are predictable. Everybody runs them and so the odd player who looks at the game differently or plays outside the box will beat these armies with armies which 'shouldn't' beat them. Predictability in an army is a weakness.

I've digressed somewhat. We've sat down and we want to make an all comers competitive list because we don't know what our opponent is going to be bringing. We've settled on a points limit and from here we have certain expectations as to what to expect - 2,000pts we're facing armies that get their cake and eat it too and have pie as well, whereas at 1500pts we've got many armies which have pie and cake but neither are very good or armies which are just cake and not pie based as well - and knowing this as a broad generalisation we are able to build a list accordingly. So where do we start is the first question? What do we want or does it matter what we take? How flexible do we want the army? What is our army's focus going to be if any? And as we sit here, more and more questions pop up, and for Space Wolves as players we get to start at some very common basics. We want a Rune Priest almost always and we are taking at least 2 units of GH's, and preferably a unit of WG. And then we start asking ourselves more questions, specifically 'Well, I have a wolf guard unit so I can assign 2 to the GH's but if I take 3 more I can unlock a heavy weapon and a CML is quite nice and so are Combi-meltas (CbM's) because this gives me lots of melta redundancy, so how is my unit going to be set up to maximise the effectiveness of it and indeed do I want to or need to split it off to the other units?' What type of transports if any is usually the next question that springs to mind, but this falls back to the question of what is the army's focus?

Continuing this theme, we will look at the TDA (Tactical Dreadnought Armour aka Terminator Armour) Wolf Guard (WG) with Cyclone Missile Launcher, Power Weapon and Storm Bolter (CML+PW+SB). Why are we taking this guy? Generally for more mobile fire support. Being in TDA he is able to move and fire both the 2 frag or krak missiles and his SB each turn and so he becomes very flexible and indeed assault driven in his movements at times. But then we need to ask where are we going to assign the CML WG? What army are you facing? Is he better in a GH unit that deploys on the board and acts as fire support? Or is he better off in a Pod dropping into a ranged fire support role on a flank? Do you have 2 TDA CML WG? If they have a Pod with their WG unit they can drop on a flank as an example because your opponent car park refused flank deployed and you have 4 krak missiles that can fire off the drop from the other end of the board where you dropped into their side armour (it's like a 4th Long Fang unit that can fire on the drop!). What about if you are facing very heavy artillery guard for example, you get the first turn or second, is that CML guy better in a DP with the GH's dropping in at point blank for a melta shot/2 Krak missile shots into the enemy armour up close? Or is he better with a pure WG unit doing the same thing except with more melta? At all points of levels, I do not recommend you putting a CML in with your long fangs. If you want to listen to stupid players then do that, plonk your extra fire support in with all your eggs and don't complain when the LF's get wiped out first or second turn and you have no missile support left. The Character Assignation amongst units is VERY Important. It is the flexibility that makes SW's as an army so horrendously powerful because you can assign your support elements anywhere in the army that allows you to have a WG, so use and abuse this according to who your opponent is.

Now, in the past Kirby has touched on the use of WG within a Space Wolf army, looking at the importance of getting leadership 9 within your Troop units as well as the option for more special weapon shots within units such as GH's as well as being a better body for close combat weapons within these squads due to the cheaper cost price as well as the extra attacks. For many, the standard Wolf Guard load out is Power Armour (PA), Power Fist (PFist) and Cbm, because in many cases it is the best bang for the buck. But this isn't true all the time and certainly whilst the flexibility of a PFist for combat punch and another (one use) melta shot for a unit with one or more meltaguns is great, a melta role is just one of many a WG can and does fulfill.

In the introductory article within the comments, one poster responded that the PFist+CbM WG in PA is the standard that WG are taken at 90% of the time. So let's look at this guy - is he good in a Scout unit with an MG? Yes, he's quite great there because it gives the unit that option for double melta on the turn they arrive but sometimes double melta isn't as handy as having a good charge with massed Bolt Pistol (BP) & Close Combat weapon (CCW) attacks alongside 3 PFist attacks to murder units or support elements not armoured vehicles. What about in a GH unit with an MG? Again, quite useful with larger squads benefiting more from the combat punch and survivability he adds. Is he good in a GH unit with a flamer? Well yes for the combat punch but his CbM has no redundancy in the unit and so loses a heck of a lot of the striking power that a unit with 1 or 2 melta weapons already in it would gain from this guy. Is he good in a Long Fang (LF) unit as a bullet catcher? At 43pts that's pretty steep where a naked 18pt WG in PA would fulfill that role far better and where a WG in TDA with SB+PW fulfills the role massively better because of the survivability of the 2+ armour save against ap 3 weapons which the LF's die instantly to (e.g. Krak Missiles) and so the 33pt naked TDA WG is a far better choice here then the 43pt PFist+CbM PA WG, and okay, the LF unit has a Rhino to move in onto the board in some missions, as a bullet catcher the naked PA WG at 18pts is far better than the CbM+PFist WG in PA. What about in Blood Claw biker units (Swift Claws)? They aren't used often it is true but some people do like to pull cover shenanigans with a character with Saga of the Hunter attaching to a Turbo-Boosted Biker Unit to provide a very nice 2+ cover save fodder unit for a flank attack push or to bubble wrap their main advance providing cover for the entire main line advance whilst still having a superior cover save themselves. The CbM+PFist WG makes the Bikers completely unable to move more than 6" a turn and so no turbo boosting to gain that combo-turbo boost fun. The same can be applied to joining this chap to a sky claw unit (look, at 180pts they are a fast fodder unit which do have uses, they aren't used often, but on occasion they can be handy in the right list). What about in a unit of WG with CbM's and PFist because well this guy is used 90% of the time and is the best bang for the buck the WG can offer. On foot it's a unit of guys that pack the survivability of a Space Marine with the cost of a Terminator each, in a Rhino that's cool but once those meltas are gone (one shot weapons and all) they have to hop out and do damage in combat but oh no PA and striking last, how long will they last? What about in a suicide melta role with a Drop Pod (because mobility isn't just about tanks you know - mobility is all about delivering your unit to a point where it can maximise its' damage, and drop pods do that fantastically well with one use weapons!)? Well you drop in pop off the melta shots then instead of being an annoying side unit to throw some grunts at and kill off over the next few turns your guys have PFists and are an ongoing threat rather than a thorn that can be forgotten and used later on in support and so they should die in your opponents turn. I think we can all recognise by now that whilst the CbM+PFist WG in PA is a nice character, he isn't the be all and end all of the WG. He can jump into many roles within a list but he won't fulfill them as well as others. But this begs the question what then is optimal? Like definitively what is optimal for WG? And on the flip side what is Sub-optimal?

Once you have YOUR optimal load out, can that WG be used in multiple roles within your army to suit multiple different units and different roles to at the least a good degree and are they worth the points then or is there another WG load out you could take for that role that is better optimised and can also fulfill other roles within the army as a whole as well? What about points cost factors for this optimisation of roles? Each army is different, and at smaller points levels especially you don't have the luxury of always taking all the WG you want, so building in layers of flexibility is especially important here and why the WG w/CbM+PFist in PA isn't always the best tool for the job and definitely not 90% of the time either.

Lets jump to other characters. The same approach of questioning can be applied to your Independent characters, such as a Rune Priest - is it better to be in a rhino unit closing the range with the rest of the army such that the staff can dispel any powers directed at your force as it closes the range? Or is it better to sit back in a rhino in support and popping off Living Lightning (LL) every turn as yet another source of long range fire suppression? Is it better to stagger the movement a bit slower to allow you to use LL from the top hatch whilst gradually pushing your force as a whole into the enemy? Are you game enough to try a first turn pod dropping with Jaws of the World Wolf (JotWW) because your opponent lined up all their monstrous creatures in a neat row and if you are lucky your Rune Priest is going to kill at least one critter worth at least 160 points and up to 265pts or more which would otherwise be a huge threat to your force overall for the rest of the game (also, very handy against rows of Hive Guard who aren't Monstrous Creatures but are a mere Initiative 2 and so 2/3's of the time are removed from the board when hit with JotWW)? Is your Rune Priest wearing Terminator Armour and carrying a combi-melta alongside a Chooser of the Slain (CotS) because sometimes LL just doesn't cut it but an additional BS 5 melta shot does? If so is this RP being podded in with a GH or WG unit? Or what about in a less seen set up attached to support Long Fangs dropping in with a second or third pod to start to wipe out the units deployed on the extreme flank with a CbM from the RP+WG attached to this unit of LF's where the Pack Leader also has a Meltagun thus allowing the unit to fire off 3 melta shots on the drop then support the army in future turns by acting as a distractionary force or fire support for the rest of the army moving in to support them? What role is your Rune Priest playing primarily and what roles can he play as secondary or otherwise? In what way will each of these roles and where you assign him affect your army as a whole? In what ways do the differing WG attachment load outs then determine the effectiveness of your RP placement?

This is the key underlying principle of the SW codex and of space wolf list design to my mind - the questions of flexibility of roles within the army of each character whether an Independent Character or an attached Wolf Guard and how these differing roles in differing combinations will affect your army as one body during that particular game. It isn't an easy thing to do but the ultimate aim is to build in multiple layers of uses and strategies that your army can perform off of the same basic army list every single game, combining together into a multi-layered, tactically flexible and cohesive list. The word predictable should not be able to be applied to your army. Flexibility and redundant unit roles across multiple locations on the Force Organisation Chart though should be paramount words you can use to describe the army. And we'll look at these in more depth next article.

Comments (53)

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SneakyDan's avatar

SneakyDan · 700 weeks ago

I knew you were an Asian Girl.
Vinsanity's avatar

Vinsanity · 700 weeks ago

TLDR - Maybe you could sum it up for me in a paragraph or two rather than a fucking 9000 word essay? :P
5 replies · active 700 weeks ago
Don't be silly... just 3,200! ^^
Lurking Horror's avatar

Lurking Horror · 700 weeks ago

No, its needs to be over 9000!

haha haven't seen that for ages!
I'm pretty sure Kirby yelled at me (figuratively) last time I had an article that was over 9000 words long. Hence having started splitting things down into more manageable chunks for quite some time now. If it makes you feel any better, there's over 9000 characters used in the above article. :)

@Vinsanity, How much time do you spend on the chat bawks each night/day you log in? More then the 5 minutes it'd take to read the above article. Bugger all people state TL;DR in the chat bawks when you are afk for 5 minutes and come back so to give you a purely chat bawks response - ignore the troll whose time is so precious they're on a blog about tabletop gaming with man dollies but have nothing of critqueable value or positive to say. :) Short answer, No. Sucks to be you. :)
Vinsanity's avatar

Vinsanity · 700 weeks ago

It just seems that for such a simple concept you don't have to essay it. Rather, 3-4 paragraphs will do and you can get your point concisely across. Its just daunting to read so much text. <3 Taak :D
from what I remember, WG cant attach to skyclaws. Though I have been proven to be wrong sometimes ;)
2 replies · active 700 weeks ago
Nice catch, you can tell i don't use them very often! It's probably also to do with the fact WG can take Jump Packs but either way. :)
Shadowmancer's avatar

Shadowmancer · 700 weeks ago

Chuck a wolf priest in them instead
i dont get why it takes so many words to explain such a simple concept
spagutyrine's avatar

spagutyrine · 700 weeks ago

Great post. People who play space wolves enough feel you bro'. I really like this article and has made me think of a few things I have never tried. Awesome Taak.
I'd like to add a comment to extend the article briefly based on a comment in the chat bawks just now about why would you ever put a cc WG into a Long fang Unit? The question arose because of my statements pertaining to the CbM+PFist WG attached to a LF unit and that no one would ever do such a thing because it's crap and completely contradictory to their soul purpose in a list, so here goes the outside the box thinking and flexibility:

First of all, it's about thinking outside the usual prescribed box that the internet commonly states as being the be all and end all of tactical dogma. It's the flexibility of the list and ALL options that can be brought into the picture. A cc sarge into your LF's, lets see some people still run LF's with Logan Grimnar and an attached character such as Arjac or a cheaper cc WG. The Pack Leader of a LF unit is actually Ld 9 with 2 attacks and can also be equipped for combat cheaply, it's 15pts for a PW and with counter attack at minimum Ld 9 you are looking at 4 PW attacks in combat there from the pack leader though you can also give him a PFist and 3 PFist attacks from him almost all the time is pretty bawling, then you have the WG attachments (CbM+PFist as an example which could pop into the unit) and any characters also attached. It's quite potent in the right list and churns out a horrendous amount of high end special weapon attacks.

So my apologies to people who didn't get that memo about the fact that support units can be used in supporting roles outside of ranged roles horrendously effectively in the SW army. It wasn't complete crap just because you've a) not seen it done before; or b) not considered it before.

Cheers.
3 replies · active 700 weeks ago
id rather put my combat WG into combat units to buff their combat powers, and then use that unit to stop enemy units reaching my long fangs, rather than putting a combat WG into a shooting unit for "just in case"
I think the point is that you put in a bullet-catcher WG into the shooting unit to absorb the first hit, not a combat WG. That people who do put the combat WG into the Long Fangs unit are Doing It Wrong.
oh, that makes much more sense. give the WG a storm shield and have him catch the incoming missiles
I understand a bit more what you're aiming at now (and I suspect the CbM comment was me). However, I do think you're using a LOT of words here on a relatively simple concept. I like that you're trying to demonstrate WG variations through attachment to unusual codex elements but really the reason I don't take (and no one should) anything with claw on the end in the codex is WS 3 which means other marines are hitting you on a 3+. Grey Hunters are simply better value for the points and therefore all WG should be taken to complement them. Personally I wouldn't take a WG with a cyclone at all unless there's spare points around, they're just too expensive, you can virtually get another long fang unit for two of them.
11 replies · active 699 weeks ago
Have you used Bikers before in a SW army? They are actually fairly cheap at 25pts a model and they can turbo boost to gain a 3+ cover save which because they are long models base wise can be used to cover your advance with a unit that also gains superior cover to the 4+ cover they are providing behind them. Yes it requires you setting them up away from your army but that's another discussion. Point being you are looking at units with a lesser WS and then looking at how effective they are in combat ONLY, NOT what other roles they fulfill for your army. You do know they can all take MB's right? And because they are so fast and you can take quite a number of them relatively cheaply and because of their base size as well, you are able to get them into contact with multiple vehicles at once. Sometimes you end up facing an artillery line where MB's vs 3 or 4 stationary close packed tanks become viable and awesome because people did what you just did and wrote the Swift Claws off as a non-threat. Your units can be used differently to a point and click oh noes it gets hurt in combat as easily as other units in other armies so I better not take it unit.

So by your reasoning, WG aren't taken to compliment Wolf Scouts either?

Finally, as I mentioned above in several examples - a WG w/CML is a mobile support element. You attach it to a 5 man GH unit on foot or in a Pod and you suddenly gain missile support elsewhere outside your 3 static LF units. As you state, 2 CML WG will cost you a little bit more then 5 LF's w/4 ML's, but again, I'll make the point - 2 CML's = 4 ML LF's, you don't get split fire unless you split them to 2 different units, but when you are out of your 3 units of LF's, you suddenly have LF Missile Support elsewhere in your army, more importantly, it's LF Missile Support that CAN MOVE AND FIRE which makes it quite invaluable.
I've had a lot of fun with Swiftclaw units and they are surprisingly useful in SW armies.

Cons: Headstrong - bleh, WS3, BS3

Pro's: Mobile melta unit, fast meltabomb unit, lots of attacks on the charge, relatively cheap, able to get into back areas and cause mayhem more easily than most SW units (Wolf Scouts aside), FA slot not heavily competed for

The weaknesses can largely be addressed by tossing in a Wolf Priest on a bike. That, of course, makes it less cheap a unit, but adds a lot to the cc impact and makes the meltaguns actually useful.

Oh - and you can't put Saga of the Hunter on a character on a bike, no matter what Army Builder says - codex says it is 'infantry only'.
Auretious Taak's avatar

Auretious Taak · 700 weeks ago

That's why you attach the saga of the hunter to say a wolf priest that is in a GH unit in a rhino or which outflanks by himself and attaches to a Turbo Boosting Swiftclaw unit AFTER they've moved for the turn.
I mentioned Wolf Scouts below, as I say, I think they're probably the only ones that are really up for debate for what you equip the attached WG with. Sorry but I'd rather take ThunderWolf cav over bikes anytime, higher toughness and rending with the two wounds, you can't turbo boost but they're better in close combat. In regard to the CML point, yes you can move and fire but what with?! Unless you're building Logan Wing you're just walking towards the enemy firing two krak missiles and I have yet to buy into the view that GH foot armies work. Razorbacks are sadly very effective for a reason for 5 man units.
Bikes and Thunderwolves both have Toughness 5, it's just the transitory instant death T4 of the bikers that is different there. Also, TWC and Bikers fulfill different roles in different armies - you can't state that one is better then the other when it gets down to the army they are being run as a part of.

Who said you are walking towards the enemy? I'd rather have a unit that camps on a home base objective that does contribute to the battle in a meaningful way asides from sitting and wasting 75+ pts of your army every turn the enemy doesn't engage or close to within 24" for bolter fire then to just sit there any day. More, you aren't thinking wide enough, you are thinking in one vein - foot armies, when it's anything but confined to foot armies.
Ugh meant to put permanent T5 sorry (I normally take a Wolf Lord which is why it bothers me). In regard to bikes I think we'll just have to agree to differ, I've used them back when I used to own 9 and I found them pretty meh at shooting and CC for the points, hence why I prefer TWC.

Am quite confused now by your second part whats 75pts, the CML, in which case why is he only firing his bolter (or Storm bolter??)? Long Fangs have 48" with ML so backline firing is pretty acceptable for CML to join them (although I'd still much much rather have the 3rd Long Fang squad.) The only bit I'd like them for is to hop out of a drop pod and 200 pts is a lot to spend on a two man unit that'll get squished next turn. If you're going tank busting a 3 - 5 man WG combi melta units a darn sight cheaper as a suicide squad
Read the paragraph on CML WG again. Fire Support. Not in a LF unit as an addition to LF units. I mentioned that plonking the CML WG - an alternate missile support platform - into your existing support was a bad idea because your LF's ARE going to get targetted. The CML WG is still a WG and can be assigned to any unit outside of a WG unit. You typically assign him to a 5 man GH unit, again because it gives you a mobile support element whether you throw them down on foot or in a drop pod for a more prominant fire support position elsewhere on the board outside of your deployment zone. A CML is valuable, it isn't a suicide unit at 63pts for the model base + the 4 other WG required to unlock him. The 1500pt list I am currently working on includes a CML WG, in a later article it'll get examined more indepth for the time being read the CML WG section again and think about the differing roles and unit compositionsI looked at. Play smart, don't play stupid. You're working on the assumption that I don't already have 3 LF units in play. But I do, that CML gives me more heavy weapon support outside the LF units. Have fun. :)
Disagree about the merits of walking grey hunters but lots of people do and sure I think a WG with the ability to strike from afar and extend their threat range is pretty useful. I'd argue still that if your taking 3 Long Fang packs AND a WG or two with cyclone you're probably spending too many points on heavy weapons and for 12 points more you could of given that 5 man Grey Hunter squad a razorback with lasplas for some mobility plus hitting power but we're starting to get more into play styles, I like that some people still use Space Wolves on foot so I take the point, its a way to increase their effectiveness. However, still think 3 WG in a drop pod with combi melta's is a cheaper and more efficient option but will stop this now as I appreciate that you keep responding to my comments and you're probably bored by now!
A full Long Fang unit is on foot, yet how many armies run LF's with a las/plas or other transport option? A great many. Why are you assuming the GH unit doesn't have a transport option? Get out of that mind set of them being only used in a foot force. Start using your units in more ways. Right now you're indicating that you are missing this point. More getting into a statement of 12pts more is a las/plas without a list behind it gets us nowhere, we're talking generalities and ways in which units can and indeed are run by players.

I'm not bored, constructive discussion is good, it sure as hell beats all these people that can't get past the fact I express myself in a more wordy fashion then they are used to. More, how many people have sat and looked at how many questions and examples that I have presented in the above article? It's over 40. Those greater then 40 examples/questions have already given other players, indeed one or two of who I respect as players and value their own input into my own lists and approach to the game, ideas they hadn't considered before. So actual objective and constructive discussion beats the hell out of people who comment pointlessly, state that I'm not presenting anything of use to anyone, or are too impatient with their time that they can't be arsed reading an article that'll take 5 minutes of time to read. If their time was so valuable and precious they wouldn't be playing with man dollies, but hey, tl;dr is the brainless response. I like discussion.

3 WG w/Combi-meltas ina pod. You need 4 other WG to get a CML WG. All the WG can be assigned to different units or not assigned as you choose at the start of the game, if you need suicide melta as a drop, run your WG as such and don't split them all off, don't play stupidly, you are playing and thinking competitively, so keep this in mind with how you run your WG - I'm more and more running WG in a Drop Pod because I can always deploy them normally and hop on a tank transport from another unit (like LF's), whereas you can't jump into another units' drop pod. List building+flexibility. It's what the whole series is about essentially. :)
"A full Long Fang unit is on foot, yet how many armies run LF's with a las/plas or other transport option? A great many. Why are you assuming the GH unit doesn't have a transport option? Get out of that mind set of them being only used in a foot force." Eh? I'm saying that they shouldn't be used as a foot force? Are you saying the long fangs should be in the razorback? The 12 pts is pretty relevant, you're splitting between declaring competitive units and then advocating different options. If I'm looking to be competitive then I wouldn't take the CML, I'd pay 12 pts and take the Razorback with lasplas or I'd max out the Long Fangs. Finally, I'm quite wordy (shock horror!) and its a weakness not a strength in a blog sadly.
We'll agree to disagree on this point. One other consideration is that a las/plas can be destroyed in one shot whereas a CML, depending on where it is placed, may take up to 15 or more wounds before you get to it, but that's a different comparison again as the las/plas is also a vehicle and a las/plas fulfills similar yet different roles as well thn the CML does.
(had to split it, the hypocrisy of mentioning the length of the article is not lost on me :-D )

Really I still think WG variations are pretty obvious, 5 man GH scoring squad in a razorback, basic 18pt model it is then, 8 man with a Rune Priest, banner and melta gun in a Rhino, then you probably want a Wolf Guard with a combi melta and a power fist. The only one I really feel is open for debate is the scout attached Wolf Guard, combi melta is a must for tank busting but I like a Wolf claw for some garanteed power weapon hits on weaker back line (and hopefully expensive) units, maybe some melta bombs too for tank busting if you miss. Anyway, I'm still not sold this really needs an article (particularly of this length) but I like your clear enthusiasm for the army so will keep reading and hopefully later stuff will click with me.
So, tell me if I've misinterpreted somehow please, because I'm struggling with your logic.

You say that a WG with TDA and Cyclone in a LF squad is bad. > Evidence: "If you want to listen to stupid players..."

You say that a WG with TDA and nothing else in a LF squad is good. > Evidence: "so the 33pt naked TDA WG is a far better choice..."

You say that a WG with close combat options in a LF squad is better than both of the above > Evidence: "a WG in TDA with SB+PW [or powerfist] fulfills the role massively better..." + your above comment.

I can understand that a naked TDA WG might be a good option for a LF squad if you're strapped for points, but I fail to see how adding a CML to him could be considered to be "stupid". The job of LFs is to shoot missiles. The CML adds two more missiles (raising your average of 3-4 hits per turn to 4-5 hits per turn) in addition to the helpful 2+.

Long Fangs have a job - to shoot missiles. Every turn they are not doing that, they are wasted points. The more missiles shot, the better. Letting them hit combat is not an efficient use for them, however you seem to be saying that adding a combat upgrade to them is not only worthwhile, but also *better* than the alternative ranged upgrade that is available (points allowing). How are enemy combat specialists getting past your GHs/TWC/army to assault your LFs in the first place? Where is your backfield scoring unit that can protect the LFs from unwanted infantry? I'm just not seeing how adding a powerfist to effectively a Dev squad is a good choice - nay - a better choice than a CML. Anything that's happy assaulting a 5-man marine squad with a sergeant is probably ok with that sergeant having a power fist. It's not a deterrent to much of anything at all, and ideally will never see use anyway because that means you're in combat and not shooting things. Logan aside, anyway.

> "support units can be used in supporting roles outside of ranged roles horrendously effectively in the SW army..."

I wouldn't call Long Fangs "effective" at anything outside shooting, they're just 5 Grey Hunters, that's it. That's not a combat unit (if Purifiers aren't a combat unit, LFs certainly aren't either!). Sure, you might choose to throw your LFs at an oncoming unit to keep them off your Obj/away from the other LFs/whatever, but making them do that better just doesn't seem to be worth it. I'm all for thinking outside the box, flexibility in a list and duality, but I really can't agree with adding a powerfist to a LF squad over a Cyclone.
2 replies · active 700 weeks ago
Quoting half a sentence is bad form when making an arguement so lets quote my article to clarrify the LF's+CML point you try to make and fail:
"At all points of levels, I do not recommend you putting a CML in with your long fangs. If you want to listen to stupid players then do that, plonk your extra fire support in with all your eggs and don't complain when the LF's get wiped out first or second turn and you have no missile support left."
Secondly:
"You say that a WG with TDA and nothing else in a LF squad is good. > Evidence: "so the 33pt naked TDA WG is a far better choice..."

You say that a WG with close combat options in a LF squad is better than both of the above > Evidence: "a WG in TDA with SB+PW [or powerfist] fulfills the role massively better..." + your above comment.
"
These are the same model. TDA+SB+PW replace th standard load out ona WG. Know your codex before commenting with such as above as naked TDA comes standard with the SB+PW. I did not state that the TDA WG is better in the LF unit with combat options as a combatant. Re-read that section again. To reiterate, I stated in the sections you are trying to make an arguement for this "Is he good in a Long Fang (LF) unit as a bullet catcher?".

To the CML beinga lesser choice then a Devastator (LF) unit - what happens when all of your LF's are taken and you have no more heavy Support options? As I stated above: "Do you have 2 TDA CML WG? If they have a Pod with their WG unit they can drop on a flank as an example because your opponent car park refused flank deployed and you have 4 krak missiles that can fire off the drop from the other end of the board where you dropped into their side armour (it's like a 4th Long Fang unit that can fire on the drop!)." Hey Look, it's like having FOUR LONG FANG UNITS now, except one can move and fire and only take ML's not PC's or lascannons, or board control MM's or what have you.

I like your opinion that ML's are the ONLY Role that LF's have and the ONLY way to run them. Sucks to be you vs Terminator or Paladin heavy armies which mess up your melta units and then walk all over you.

Actually, LF's as I mentioned above can churn out quite an effective arsenal of combat attacks and decently priced. GH's get a PW, yay 3 attacks for them, LF's get a PW, yay 4 attacks for them, WG add the same 4 attacks to each unit so really the LF's are hitting with more special weapon attacks then the GH's, you can even give the LF Pack Leader a special weapon so in effect as you state "I wouldn't call Long Fangs "effective" at anything outside shooting, they're just 5 Grey Hunters, that's it. That's not a combat unit" they actually can be used more aggressively then GH's. Also, GH's are decent troops and are used for combat support and combat punch ina great many space wolf armies as standard, this includes small units of 5 supporting GH's which can act as fist carriers et al because combined assaults make even small units mighty. But the key thing here is, you missed the point I was making - LF's have the flexibility to exist in multiple roles. Your Space Wolf Army is YOUR Space Wolf Army. It isn't a cut and paste internet list and if it is, well all power to you but you're missing out on where the codex excels - inbuilt flexibility and redundancy of roles. Just because a unit can act in support and is very points efficient in one build (LF's w/ML's) doesn't mean it can't be used in other ways in other list forms effectively and indeed points efficiently. Think outside the box, you'll improve because of it.
> Quoting half a sentence is bad form when making an arguement

So is semi-trolling someone who raises civil and polite points about your post. I was quoting half sentences so you would know which part of your post I was talking about, and not having to jump all over the place trying to find what I was arguing with, for, or against. I was not arguing against the exact text that I quoted back at you.

> "Know your codex before commenting with such... Your Space Wolf Army is YOUR Space Wolf Army..."

I don't play Space Wolves. At all. I'm sorry for not knowing literally every single unit entry from every single codex in 40k by heart... I don't own the book and have never sat down to build a list with it. I read these articles in order to know my enemy and get general tips on playing the game.

Aside from the rudeness and condecension, I'll address your actual points.

> "I like your opinion that ML's are the ONLY Role that LF's have and the ONLY way to run them. Sucks to be you vs Terminator or Paladin heavy armies which mess up your melta units and then walk all over you."

And what the hell do you do with them? Buy em all heavy weapons, attach a WG with whatever, and charge in with your 15 MEQ attacks and 4 Power Weapon attacks at the same initiative so he can wound-stack (assuming you're not dead by the time I4 even rolls round)? Is that an efficient use of 150pts or however much they are? Do you think Paladins give a flying fart about how clever you've been at putting a combat character in a ranged unit that could otherwise sit 48" away and pop off 7 shots a turn, waiting for them to roll a 1 for their save and insta-killing them with no FnP?

If you're building an all-comers list, MLs are the best choice. There's a reason every single SW player takes them. If you want to talk about bad argumentation then saying "MLs are crap against specific army X so therefore they are crap overall" is about as bad as you can get.

> "they actually can be used more aggressively then GH's"

If you, say, don't want to use them for shooting then sure.

> "But the key thing here is, you missed the point I was making - LF's have the flexibility to exist in multiple roles."

Sure. All-comers list: MLs. Anti-TEQ: Plasma Cannon. Anti-Vehicle: MMs. Anti-Horde: Heavy Bolters. The role that is conspicuous by its absence is "Good close combat unit", because it isn't. The unit is designed for shooting, therefore it shoots well. By any definition of the word they are not "Good" in combat. If you are using them in combat, you are not playing to their strengths. No matter how much you try to think laterally and come up with inventive solutions, you're still bashing a square peg into a round hole, and trying to convince people that creativity is more important than, say, optimal performance. I get that you want to play silly buggers with your Wolf Guard. That's fine. I'm sure a CML WG can go in pretty much any unit and do well enough. What you won't convince me of is that 1. Long Fangs can do anything except shoot and still be a optimal use of a FOC slot/points and 2. Adding a combat-orientated unit upgrade to a ranged unit that ideally wants to be as far away from the enemy as possible is a valid and good way to spend points.
tl;dr. you are wicked tall...do you bang your head on things a lot?
I just skimmed this, then read the above comment about 2 TDA WG with CMLs in a pod. That's fucking awesome thinking
Posting in a Taak thread.
1 reply · active 700 weeks ago
Omfg, me too!
lol taak, how did you hide when all the trees only came up to your waist? &lt;3
3 replies · active 698 weeks ago
I can duck down surprisingly well, moreover, I have this literal ability to just appear behind people and they don't realise I'm there...plus, ummm, I could see everyone, even behind cover most of the time so shot down and spotted for anyone further ahead so ummm I guess you could say that in paintball I'm an imba unit choice. :P
Until a tree clothelines you :P. You're coming next time we go just so I can see this :P.
I've had one paintball experience, it was with the group of people in the above shot, I knew 2 of them, and they sucked at aintball, the guy squatting in the front talked non-stop and everyone else knew him and disliked him immensely but they needed numbers...us two got on famously and were the last to die most games, lol. There weren't enough of us for a big game and so we got thrown against a bunch of year 10 kids just finished for the year, it was fun but ultimately not enough players and it finished like 2-3 hours into it because only me and the guy people disliked and 2 year 10 kids had any sense to save ammo to go for the whole day. The staff wouldn't let us play out the rest of the day with 4 of us, it would have been rad.

I've a mate who is up Richmond way who plays, his last major game had 100 people a side...imagine the crossfire...and a bunch of the Humans Vs Zombies crowd down in Canberra I am friends with play competition paintball, so yeah I really do want another proper game with people at some point, one whereby we play for at least 6 hours cause finishing before lunch is balls considering the cost.
spaguatyrine's avatar

spaguatyrine · 700 weeks ago

The point being, that in the Space Wolves codex, you can think differently about your units and because they all have some great components because they are space wolves, units can do multiple roles beyond what they are designed for.

Example: I am a former United States Marine. In the Marine Corps, every marine is trained to be a basic grunt. Whether your job is actually a cook, military police, admininstrative, or vehicle repair, each and every marine can fit into a fireteam position in any battle. The basic skills taught to marines allows for all marines to be competent at their specialty and the basic soldier/grunt.

Space Wolves are like that. So don't always think you have to have 5 missle launchers. 2 plasma cannons and 3 missle launchers work great! Don't think wolfguard are only meant to be split off to GH packs, or if you have logan scoring units. They can be their own deathly unit when needed. Think on your feet and you will be a better Space Wolves player than pre-determining every unit and how the WG will go before the game starts.

Right Taak?

Spaguatyrine
3 replies · active 699 weeks ago
Auretious Taak's avatar

Auretious Taak · 700 weeks ago

Pretty much, and added to that is designing your lists to have multiple roles available to suit differing opponents, every list is different (sure people may play the same lists but those lists are one of many different lists) and Space Wolves are able to have many differing lists within one list. This is a HUGE advantage on both the strategical and the tactical levels of play. WG and IC's play a huge part in this. Units themselves don't have to be set up for the obvious roles though they will undoubtedly be employed in those primary roles most of the time re: LF's with combat options or with MG on Pack Leader and CbM's on attached characters in a drop for flanking board control elements in future turns et al.

I didn't know you were a marine previously Spag, what was your speciality?
spaguatyrine's avatar

spaguatyrine · 700 weeks ago

Military Police K-9.
Oh nice - is it as hard to get into a dog squad so to speak in the military as it is to get into one in the normal police forces?
Very true Space wolf units are quite often more multifuntional than you think.

The counter attack makes a big difference. double the attacks

I have seen Long Fangs take on close combat units like storm boyz and Genestealers and regularly win especially when with a TDA WG attached
Man, once again, a whole lot of words about not much.
4 replies · active 699 weeks ago
Man, once again, very few words and no solid arguement.

I like that at the very least I have given the guy who won the NOVA Invitational's Best Overall awards with his Space Wolves new ideas that will influence his gameplay with Space Wolves from now on.
Could've said "TL, DR" but I figured that'd be rude. ;)
Again, you aren't contributing anything of use or objectivity here so let me be clear - DON'T READ MY ARTICLES AS NOTHING SAYS YOU HAVE TO. If your aren't gonna read them anyways because my god, I use a lot of words and present a lot of ideas in one article, then don't.

If you aren't getting anything from my articles good for you.

Other people are.

That's sort of the point of all these online blogs - to help other people improve their game by presenting differing ideas. I'm a proponent of thinking outside the box and inbuilt flexibility, many people don't look at armies in this way. You aren't getting anything from me, fine, that's your opinion, you're allowed it, the same as I'm allowed mine.

So stop bothering to read my articles and commenting pointlessly if it pains you so much. It won't bother me and it won't waste your time anymore. Seriously.
Believe it or not, this is actually constructive criticism. I don't disagree with you point, though I question if it's enough to make an whole article out of. It's certainly not enough to make this very long article out of.

You need to make you points much more concisely. True story.
Your post made me think again :)
Thank you :) )
1 reply · active 698 weeks ago
No worries at all, glad you took something away from it. :)

Next article is a bit delayed because university is pissing out my ears at the moment with end of semester fast approaching but it'll be up soonish.
Seen many players make the mistake and assume long fangs bad in cc

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