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Monday, July 16, 2012

Battlefront's Big Decision Regarding 3rd Party Models

Hey, folks, SinSynn from House of Paincakes here (visit our website, or else...), talkin' Flames of War.

It has long been established that Battlefront is a company in touch with their fanbase. They have an active forum, where the BF staff frequently partakes in the discussions.
It's also well known that, well...they give us free stuffs. I received my Version 3 rulebook for free. I went and downloaded the new 'Panzer Brigade' PDF earlier today- Confident Trained Panther and Mech lists, with Naval Artillery support....WOOT!
Note: Just as well known- free stuff rocks.
Things like this go a long way towards promoting brand loyalty.

*We luvs ya, Battlefront!*

Another thing Flames of War players have long taken for granted is Battlefront's attitude towards 3rd party models- as in: sure, go ahead and use 'em! All they asked is that competitor's products not be mentioned on their forums. Battlefront, as a company, gave every appearance of wanting to promote Flames of War as an inclusive game.

Notice I say 'game,' and not 'hobby.' This is an important distinction to make, going forward. Historical Wargaming is a hobby. Flames of War is a game.


It came as a great shock to the Flames of War community when Battlefront announced that they would no longer allow 3rd party models to be used at official events recently.
Excuse me while I make this face:

-_-

Initially, this doesn't seem too bad- it's only 'official' events, right? Surely that just means, like, Nationals...right?
Nope.
Battlefront has what's called the 'Ranger Program,' where local clubs can sign up to receive company support for events they run, including prizes, promotion on the Flames of War website, and a tie-in with Rankings HQ.
My club is a part of this, as are most of the clubs in my immediate area (Northeastern United States). We have a BF 'rep guy' and everything. He shows up at events we run. Battlefront has been really helpful kickstarting Flames of War 'round my way, and it has grown immensely as a result. There's at least one tournament to attend monthly, and since they receive official support attendees can count on not only cool prizes, but they can work towards gaining a coveted spot at the Nationals, as well.
Naturally, this makes the recent announcement cut pretty deep.

What precipitated this announcement, and why does it cut so deep?
Three words- Plastic Soldier Company.

*Say hello to the competition*

Let me be very, very clear here- Battlfront minis are, for the most part, completely unimpressive. There's just not a lot about 15mm WWII models that's exciting, after all. Things like the ubiquitous Sherman tank and German Panzer IV just don't turn heads, especially rendered in such a small scale. They're tiny lil' things, after all, and one must literally hold their face inches away to appreciate any detail.

Battlefront minis are resin, frequently have casting problems, and are also expensive, usually clocking in at more than10 US dollars each for even small, common vehicles. Prior to PSC's arrival, they were pretty much the only widely-distributed game around, however. Alternatives like Gaming Models and Peter Pig  were there for those that cared to seek them out, but were never intended to compete head to head with Battlefront.

Plastic Soldier Company came along and changed that. Their kits are plastic, half the price, and widely available.
Yeah, you read that right- HALF THE PRICE!

5 Battlefront Panzer IV's (H variant)- $52.50
5 Plastic Soldier Company IV's (that makes multiple variants)- $23.99
(current WarStore prices)

Since PSC kits also make multiple variants (BF kits generally do not), and come with instructions (BF kits generally do not), and assemble easily (BF kits generally do not. I'm looking at you, Schurzen and tiny fenders), they quickly became very popular. Price alone probably would've made it so, but the rest is just gravy, man.
Mmmmm...delicious gravy.

*Gravy is good*

I'm actually used to getting less for my hobby dollar nowadays, so I jumped right on the PSC bandwagon, and so did many FoW players. Simultaneously, I loved Battlefront all the more, simply because they were cool with it.
Battlefront makes about ten times as many different vehicles, artillery pieces and troop types than PSC does, so I continued to buy Battlefront products, naturally. Like every other mini-game addict out there, I make frequent purchases, and both the Battlefront and Plastic Soldier Company CEO's have probably bought fancy new cars thanks to me.
Don't you judge me!...I haz a sickness...
Life was good. Flames of War was good, and I recommended it to anyone who asked about it. Like many Flames of War players, I felt like I had a game and a company I was proud to be associated with.

And then, this happened.
Sigh.
To say the Flames of War forums exploded with the typically righteous indignation to be expected here on the Internet is an understatement.
Last night, I spent a couple of hours sifting through the relevant threads. It made my head hurt. Seven pages into the initial post, this official response from Battlefront staff can be found:

 "If I was a child and wanted to hold my breath I would not be letting people run around on our forum spouting such utter nonsense but deleting their posts and banning their accounts but that would be childish and serve no real purpose as I prefer to read what is said and then comment when I feel the need.

If Flames Of War is not creating our own IP I dont know what is and I know that Pete, Phil, Wayne, Evan and the guys would disagree as they have spent the last ten years of their lives dedicated to creating a hobby that is the heart of our business and completely unique. FOW is what drives the WWII 15mm gaming community and has done for many years and despite other manufacturers of models it was never any more than just another historical scale before FOW came along. If supporting your hobby involves you changing sides every time a business decision upsets you I would ask anybody who enjoyed their free copy of 3rd edition to speak up and say that we behaved like GW. Stand up and tell me that we are like any other company and I will give you five exmaples where we have proven time and again we are not. We are simply making a choice for our own events and even if you disagree you should respect us for the right to do so as just like giving away the rules free to over 50,000 people this year the same people made that choice so we cant be as bad as some of you would make out.

The problem is that the vocal few with more opinion than understanding would make it sound like this effects the entire hobby. You are wrong. Competitive gaming is a part of our hobby and we support it becasue we want to help that part grow but 90+% of all gamers are casual players who play in stores and at friends houses and never particpate in a tournament. These are the core of our business and despite some posters in this thread claiming to "know" this is a small issue effecting a gorup of players who however vocal are not the only gamers in the hobby.

Despite it being unwise to comment on this thread it is hard to read personal attacks on yourself and your team without feeling a little hurt and whilst I should not defend our choice more as it will just give some of you more fuel to bleat I stand by what I say. Try and look at the big picture, remember who we are, what we have done and how FOW got here and then just decide if that is your hobby or not as you shoud want to support your hobby and if this or any other decison we make has you changing your mind then we wish you all the best and thank you for your business but we will still be here doing our best and behaving the way we always have"

Wow.
Petulant, and full of typos. Hardly a professional response, for sure. Someone was typing angry, methinks, and confusing their game with 'the hobby.' 
Still, I have to respect Battlefront for even stepping into the firing line on this one. Many companies initiate unpopular policy changes and never even bother to do that much.
Maybe it's a lil' funny to see that internet rage can affect anyone, no matter who they are, as well. Considering how heated that particular thread was, it was kinda understandable, actually.

*We've all been there, I'm sure*
 
That particular thread, and many others have been locked, but more have sprung up. It quickly became a debacle for Battlefront.
All is not lost, however, as a follow-up statement was released:

"Pete, John Mathews and I have been discussing the issue these past few hours and realise that making a rushed decision today will not benefit anyone. We have consensus from all three of us, the BF board, that we will change our stance on this issue but will not be able to finalise exactly what that means today as it is already 4.30pm here and 12.30am on the east coast.

We will convene again first thing in the morning to put in writing our formal reply and will post it on the website. We do appreciate the constructive feedback and have definitely listened to what is being said. We have proved in the past many times that we can accept feedback and change our plans as only a fool does not listen to their supporters so thank you and enjoy the rest of the weekend. I am off to get an aspirin and a cup of tea "

I gotta tell ya, folks, I was very disappointed in Battlefront's initial policy change, but completely resigned to it. It seemed like a typical 'corporate decision' to me, and I'm sure we all know those never really favor the consumer, don't we?
For all appearances, it looked like Battlefront was responding to genuine competition not by stepping up, but by going all corporate on us.

My response would have been just as predictable as theirs was- no more Battlefront purchases, and maybe a lil' complaining on the internet.
*grin*

Will Battlefront reverse their decision? I am hopeful that they will.

That being said, I am pleasantly surprised by the very human reactions they've displayed since announcing the policy change in a typically mundane, corporate manner. I'd rather read the rantings of a genuine person than another dry, boring legal statement any day of the week.

So here I am, fingers crossed, hoping.  Battlefront has given me that much, and I am grateful to them for doing so.We'll see what happens!

Until next time, folks- exit with catchphrase!

-SinSynn

Comments (44)

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See whilst I can understand the frustration of the consumers here, Battlefront does have to make money ^^. What's to say PCS doesn't start producing nearly 100% of the units used in FoW?

That being said, if BF made this statement and then said something like "we'll be using incoming revenue over the coming months/years to bring our mini production up to scratch so they are better and cheaper and then reversing this ruling" would be a win all round :P.
9 replies · active 664 weeks ago
Principles of economics. If your competitor makes a better product, cheaper, you have to respond by out-cheaping them or out-bettering them. Not a year from now, today. Throwing shitty corporate tactics around just doesn't make for something they were doing so well at: Fan loyalty.
http://www.vcee.org/misc/userfiles/file/Six%20Cor...

Some good things there, perhaps they should have consulted an outside agency before making that announcement. Fan base response was, well, predictable.
Don't get me wrong, I agree with you. But considering how long BF has been around, one would expect them to have been pushing better models anyway - sooner or later someone was bound to come up with better, cheaper, models, etc.
At which point you would expect BF to be able to compete effectively.

If BF is able to make plastic infantry and tanks for just a few dollars more than PSC, I can guarantee you people will flock to those. But if BF makes their plastic models just as expensive as their resin versions, and they still look the same, well, that's going to be an even bigger problem.
So is everyone now blind to the fact that BF is releasing fairly inexpensive plastics for mainstay kits, including instructions in their kits and online, etc etc....

sick of short term memory loss in situations like these
Dethy, you should probably read this:
http://theback40k.blogspot.com/2012/07/its-plasti...

The only complete plastics that BF is making are the models in the starter kit.
But PSC doesn't make rules! Just plastic soldiers... If BF wants to recoup the lost money from providing all of their fanbase with a free rulebook they have to make up the money somewhere... As your link explains, nothing is free, NOTHING!
They've got rules now, actually. Which can be adjusted from 6mm minis to 28mm.
PSC has rules in the works, my friend, and BF doesn't make the only WWII ruleset for use with 1/100th scale minis anyway.

I am not going to buy a product that 's simply not as good, and more than twice as expensive. Like I said, Flames of War is a game, not the hobby unto themselves.
Have you seen the BGK previews Piers has been showing?

Man... at this rate I'm going to have a 15mm collection for FoW and Battlgroup Normandy (PSC's second ruleset) AND a completely seperate 6mm collection for Blitzkrieg Commander!

Heck, I've even thought about putting some cash into PSC's 20mm offerings!
Yeah it's a shitty situation they're in. One of the caveats of making WWII models, anyone can make WWII models. Not anybody can make Space Marines / Warjacks or whatever.

However that initial response was like "how to torpedo your PR 101". o.o
1 reply · active 664 weeks ago
You are 100% correct. Battlefront didn't invent WWII.
Competition is supposed to benefit the consumer, ultimately. It's supposed to be a healthy part of capitalism.
Unfortunately, our hobby seems to exist outside of all of that...I have no idea why.

At least Battlefront acknowledged this as a misstep. They seem to have more sense than their rampant fanbois, at least.
I love BF so much... But I read this and I feel like BF should just disapear!

Not because they are a good company! They are the best company out there! But gosh, their fan base sure doesn't deserve it! Honestly, fuck the wallmart culture...

Honestly, this post coming from someone who buys from the warstore and already kills is hobby. Sometimes I wish people like you would finally win out and no LGS would exist anymore... Then you could see your hobby finally die out! Finally, you would have won... You wouldn't spend a single freaking dollar and this god awefull hobby!

You know, Magic the gathering got super popular again because they decided to side with the local retailers! You think these things would be nearly as popular if you didn't have a "on street" window at your LGS where people can meet and play together?

No, really, the wallmart mentallity kills me!
6 replies · active 664 weeks ago
*Not because the aren't a good company... (typo, should always reread)
Skanderbeg's avatar

Skanderbeg · 664 weeks ago

Just because you accept that behavior from GW doesn't make the behavior acceptable. If you feel you are getting value for the money than that's fine but if another company is producing models that are equally well sculpted, have less quality control issues, and are half as expensive, than I can't see why it's an issue. At the very least any company in that situation should address why such a thing is even possible, especially since (theoretically) BF is a bigger company than Plastic Soldier (?) and has (potentially) been around longer. Battlefront's IP is it's ruleset, not WW2 or the vehicles and units in use during that war. Whilst I hope they have great success as I have heard nothing but good things about their rules, one the most viable ways for a consumer to show their dissatisfaction with a product is to not purchase that product, or to purchase the competitor's products. As to the LGS and 'walmart' culture that is an entirely different discussion.
Skanderbeg's avatar

Skanderbeg · 664 weeks ago

Oops I mashed my replies to Franck and Akaiyou into one rambling account...apologies ladies and gentlemen. Hopefully it doesn't cause too much confusion.
People have to realize that as SinSynn wrote:

"It has long been established that Battlefront is a company in touch with their fanbase. They have an active forum, where the BF staff frequently partakes in the discussions.
It's also well known that, well...they give us free stuffs"

BF has amazing support, they have to pay for that in some way! If their products were the same price as PSC they would be going bankrupt! (espescially with all the freebees and "helping to quickstart the hobby").
Oh no, how sad, BF's gone!

Well, looks like I can't play WWII in 15mm. Oh wait, what's this? Forged in Battle, PSC, Peter Pig, QRF, and other companies ALSO make 15mm WWII? And there's other scales to play in too?!

And you mean there's other rulesets, too? Like Blitzkrieg Commander, and Battlegroup Kursk, and Bolt Action, and Abteilung!

Yeah, that's the 'hobby' you're talking about. If BF wants to stick around, they're going to have to stay competitive, not stick their head in the grounds and pretend to be the GW of the historical niche of the hobby. Because that won't work.
Franck-
I live in the Bronx, NYC. There IS no local gamestore, here.
The Warstore has a brick and mortar place on Long Island, NY. It's a long trip, but I've been out there.
the gamestore where I play is in upstate, NY- over an hour ride for me, but that's where my gaming club is. The money I've put into their vending machines alone is legendary, and I purchased virtually all the models for both of my 40k armies there.

I appreciate you reading my post, and I thank you for your comment. I'm very glad you enjoy Flames of War.
However, I would ask that you level your accusations of 'hobby ruining' elsewhere.
There are no Walmart stores in New York City, buddy. You can look that up.
:)
Wow I actually read through all that...and to be honest I've never thought i'd say this but the consumers are the assholes here.
The OP goes out to state how great the company has been giving them free stuff and in return he's all riled up and ready to quit on them because they looked out for their own best interest? Which is you know....trying not to go BANKRUPT

GW indiscriminantly raises prices every year and doesn't give free stuff that I know of...otherwise im due lots of free stuff!

And here you have an understanding company for a 'game' as you call it that you clearly seem to love. And they begin to get undercut by a 3rd party which clearly has been affecting their business long enough that they felt a need to remove them from their official events as a remedy. And instead of supporting the decision you go into nerd rage on them....

Here is an example of how messed up this is...

If someone invites you to their house, gives you room and board, cooks for you, treats you better than you are used to, etc...you have no grounds to get holier than thou on them because they refuse to wipe your ass when u shit, or to allow you to make super expensive phone calls from their landline that would clearly be costly to them.

Just saying that's just wrong man, I don't play FoW nor do I intend to, but that's just wrong and i'm ashamed to be associated with these kinds of hobbyist...you guys should be ashamed of yourselves.
7 replies · active 664 weeks ago
Amen!
Here's the thing:

BF's completely 'official' events are a minority within a minority. Most FoW players are casual-ites who will never go to any sort of competitive tournament. And the majority of tournaments are independently run.

How could BF ever expect to make their money back from the tiny, tiny fraction of tournament goers that had enough non-BF product to warrant some sort of protest? The short answer - they couldn't.

The problem here is that PSC (and Forged In Battle) has shown that you can get great 15mm WWII plastic, resin, and metal figures for less than what Battlefront charges, and at a higher quality. And how does Battlefront respond? Not by trying to compete - nope, they just want out of the game. Which, in the historical scene, isn't acceptable - and I'm going to assume you're not a historical wargamer.

As to your analogy, here's where it fall apart: Guess were all that money came from that allowed that person who buy that house, buy all their furniture, buy that food, and buy those nice little gifts you get every once in a while? Oh, that's right - from US! The people who bought BF even before they were known for Flames of War, and only known for putting out semi-overpriced white metal WWII miniatures.

So, no, it's not that the consumers are the bad guys here - it's the consumers keeping BF from going back on their word (that they would allow other lines of miniatures in their game) and becoming the sort of company that GW is.
Sigh.
I own a ton of Battlefront models. I regularly attend tournaments. I have promoted Flames of War in my capacity as a blogger for a while now.
I didn't establish Battlefront's prior policy regarding 3rd party models- they did. And it was all fine and good until some actual competition came along, wasn't it?
Whoops- the curtain gets pulled aside, and it turns out that Battlfront is capable of being EXACTLY like GW.
*sad trumpet noise- womp, womp*
Or...maybe not.
I don't nerd rage. I vote with my wallet.
Previously, I supported both BF and PSC, and I believed BF was a 'better' company than many in this industry due to their policies.
Competition, for the most part, is seemingly unwelcome, however, and the bigger companies would like to have a choke hold on their customers. You think this is a GOOD thing?
Buck up Sinsynn, there's been an update on the FoW site:
http://www.flamesofwar.com/Default.aspx?tabid=57&...

"In all the years we have been in business we have had an open and honest policy about listening to our gamers and genuinely taking their views on board to the extent of sometimes changing our plans. We apologise for the confusion and angst our announcement has caused as it was never our intention. We did not see this change as a big problem as we were simply formalising something we already thought was existing practise, albeit informally.

In the interests of compromise and fairness to everybody’s opinion we will change the word “all” to “majority” (meaning over half) in the tournament rules for the 2013 season. Although we were not clear enough about this last week we did not consider die cast planes, scratch built models or objectives (assuming they are the right size), terrain or models we do not currently make to be covered by this. As is always the case, if you are unsure simply get in touch with your tournament organiser and clarify the situation but we are going to revert to the best option in all cases, common sense.

The new season rules take effect from the masters in December this year and only apply to the officially run Battlefront tournaments listed on our site. Independent tournaments are free to choose their own system, as they always have been.

One of the feedback ideas that did come back from our weekend conversations that we really liked was to also further reward people who came along with 100% Battlefront armies. This is an idea that we will definitely work on for the future.

We are committed to supporting and growing the Flames Of War hobby and want to invest more in the future, in events, the website and programs like the Rangers all of which we are happy to spend money on to provide this to you for free.

We want to thank our moderators for doing such a sterling job this weekend especially given they had no warning at all. We appreciate all the civil comments whether for or against. We feel that our compromise shows that we believed all views have merit. We hope this once again proves that we do listen. "

Kudos to them. Though I'm suspicious enough (thanks GW!) to think this >50% ratio was the plan all along. :)
Thanks very much for the update, Sandy!
Like yourself, I'm suspicious, but I'll take what I can get!
And if the company goes under?

Whats the net worth of your plastic BS then?

This isn't a leviathan of the industry we're talking about here, its a small company that just had its main source of income pulled out from under it.

By all means buy cheaper models but understand the issue don't just B*&6 and Moan
Germanicus's avatar

Germanicus · 664 weeks ago

Uhm... you play a different game?

It's not as though Flames of War is the only WWII game that works with 15mm miniatures a BF basing.
I'm going to chuck this out now - be civil.
Redscorps's avatar

Redscorps · 664 weeks ago

I think it's fair, they must be losing a lot of business to PSC as pretty much the only thing you ever hear about getting into the game is 'FoW is great, buy yourself an all tank list from PSCto get started then nice you have a grasp on the rules start adding in infantry and support units from BF'.

The price difference is prohibitive and you'd have to think that a part of the BF miniatures cost must be floating their campaign production, events or similar as that money needs to come from somewhere.

What about a minimum of 50% BF minis in your army if yu are playing one of their events, it might shape some peoples army lists differently but I am sure most people could stomach that as a first step?!

I love that BF takes steps to ensure that the price of their blisters here in my lhs is the same as what I can get them for online and the price changes with the exchange rate. No one else would do that!

Good to see you writing SinSynn.
2 replies · active 664 weeks ago
Hey Redscorps!
'grats on having your lovely army featured on BoLS. That put a big smile on my face, fer sure.
'grats on the new website, as well!

I would love to be able to recommend BF tanks over PSC tanks, but I can't, quite honestly. I genuinely prefer PSC tanks, and I think they're superior in every way.
I'm really, really tired of bent barrels and tracks that require a lot of hacking to fit properly. I really am.
Once they're beaten into submission, BF models are quite nice. PSC models simply aren't as frustrating to build, and are easier to deal with, being plastic and all. No bent barrels, no chipped resin.

Even with a 50% minimum, I couldn't run a tank list- every Panzer IV, Stug and Panther I own is PSC.
Sigh.
I understand mate, I have 25 PSC tanks, 5 PSC half tracks, a box of PSC late war German infantry and 5 zvezda to the 5 BF tanks I own.
In warhammer, you must choose the best character for you. You can find it interesting by doing it perfectly noticeable. You should love it first so that others will do.
Battlefront really dropped the ball on this one. What they should have done is buy Plastic Soldier Company as soon as PSC showed up :3
2 replies · active 664 weeks ago
Well, the cat's outta the bag now. Battlefront has taken their first steps towards 'policing' their game.
Not really sure how this will work at official events- will someone be there to check armies? Will players 'rat out' other players trying to sneak by?
Lolz incoming.
Yeah, I just don't see that being doable for them. If I weigh down my PSC models, would they even be able to tell without removing the turret? Are they going to argue with me about plastic infantry and then miss the non-BF lead infantry someone else has?

I think they'll just let anything but the most obvious cases slide by. It's too much effort otherwise for too little gain.
SinSynn. I love ya man, you're one of my favorite bloggers in the 'sphere, and you've generally stood up as an advocate of common sense and japanese erotica--both things I can generally get behind (if you know what I mean). But I really have to say, you--and from what it sounds like, a good portion of BF's players--are pretty firmly in the wrong on this one. After all, if BF is putting money into a tournament, I can only presume it is to invigorate sales. If they are invigorating the sales of their competitors rather than promoting their own bottom line, they are losing money, which is, needless to say, bad for business.

In this situation, the player is taking free rules, asking for tournament (i.e. monetary) support, and giving not a dime in return. Yes, it sounds like PSC produces a superior brand of model for the 15mm WWII hobby. You pointed out yourself, however, that FOW is not the hobby. It is a game within the hobby. BF is fully justified in promoting its *game* through restrictions in that game.

Gah, having trouble articulating my argument.

Essentially, this strikes me as a responsible business that (unless BF has said they would NEVER restrict models) is both ethical and intelligent. Even someone who only plays 40k like myself (and Tyranids at that!) knows that other companies are not nearly as--in terms I believe you first used, Sin--abusive as GW. Pretending BF has become some kind of cold-hearted corporate entity for restricting tournament models after giving away free rules is just preposterous.
2 replies · active 664 weeks ago
Well thanks for the compliments, Abakus. Much appreciated.
I understand where you're coming from, no worries there.

This whole PSC thing has been a long time coming, and this move is a reversal of a long standing policy. I would totally get behind Battlefront if it was some shlock, cheapo type of company producing lame knock-offs, or if Battlefront minis themselves were like...good.
PSC is a cool company, too- and they make a dynamite product. Battlefront stuff is just ok.....and it's expensive.
I really think competition is THE BEST thing that could happen for US, the people who actually buy this stuff. Why are all these companies seemingly terrified of actual competition? This is how we, their customers, are going to pay for our free rulebooks?

The same BF staffer responsible for the comments in my post once famously reaffirmed the old policy, claiming he was 'excited, as it makes all the companies work harder.'
Sandwyrm has re-posted that tidbit here: http://theback40k.blogspot.com/2012/07/awe-battle...

I'm not really mad about this, just disappointed. I can't get behind this decision.
YoungAbraham's avatar

YoungAbraham · 664 weeks ago

Ok, obviously this isn't the ideal scenario for the consumer, you would like to be able to buy the cheapest, best miniatures to play with, and use them however you want, with no restrictions.

But, is it difficult for you to see their side of the argument? They're providing free rules, and tournament prize support for their games (for free, sounds like), and you're upset that you can't win their free stuff with your army bought from another company? It's not like they're suing PSC or trying to actively drive them out of business, they're just saying that, for official events sponsored by their company, in which you play with the free rules they provide, and the prizes you can win, you have to use their official toys. It seems totally legitimate from an outside perspective, and something that's accepted in pretty much every other industry.

If you go see a band at a bar, you can't just waltz in with your own food and drink from home or the "healthy competition" across the street, because the drinks are how they make money and sustain their business. Sure, that situation is better for the consumer, but the bar owners are justified in feeling taken advantage of.
Some dude's avatar

Some dude · 664 weeks ago

however good BF's "tournament - event - fanbase" support is, if the company is selling an inferior AND more expensive product (in this specific case models) than a competitor (PSC), instead of revamping their model line to be on par if not better than the closest competitor, they DESERVE to be criticized for making a move like that.

i am an admirer of BF's FOW system (good rules) but I never touched FOW models because THEY ARE SERIOUSLY CRAPPY and OVERPRICED. PSC made me seriously consider starting FOW because it is so affordable. In fact, I was hoping PSC would make infantry models too because BF's are like pieces of ****.

Furthermore, WWII is not IP-able. Definitely not in this case. The only thing (to me) that BF can do now is bloody revamp their miniatures line or lose a sizable chunk of their customers.
1 reply · active 664 weeks ago
PSC does make infantry models- nice ones too, just like you'd expect. No melon head or giant sasquatch hands.

And yep- BF needs to go plastic. Big time.
TreechoppingHerring's avatar

TreechoppingHerring · 664 weeks ago

You realize if a company doesn't make money it goes out of business. Those guys gotta eat too.
Chris lively's avatar

Chris lively · 664 weeks ago

I'm in the interesting position of owning an "upstart" company that has a better ( and vastly cheaper ) product than the top dog in our field. It isn't war among related, but same principals apply. We are absolutely destroying the competition; and even though they have more money and are more established they will do one of two things: fold or take on a huge amount of debt to refocus themselves.

Like BF, my competitor tried to lock us out of the space. This is normal tactics and corporate behavior. However, it can only be effective in the short term ( if ever ). They've been in business 10 years; however 1 year out of the gate we are now 1/3rd their size with expectations of surpassing them by this time next year.

I brought all of that up so that you understand that I know what I'm talking about with this next statement:
BF is in a lot of trouble right now. They have a certain inertia that they now understand will no longer last. However, for them to drop resin, go plastic and fix their quality issues will mean a significant investment of capital that they weren't planning on. To try and push this out they wanted to have a "public" policy about forcing everyone to use onl their models.

Yes, that's in tournaments, but there are a lot of home players that would quietly respect that, which BF is in part counting on.

Changing direction when you have a business with existing customers, distribution and income / expenditure forecasts is very hard to do successfully.

I'd guess they have less than 2 years to figure this out, and for the community I hope they do.
Ironically this highlights a difficulty that Games Workshop are going to experience. They no longer support tournaments. Because they no longer support tournaments they have no say in the models that are used in those tournaments. Whilst no one makes Space Marines, there are alternatives for other armies (particularly in Fantasy) and people will use the cheapest models that allow them to represent the army they play. Needless to say, cheapest != Games Workshop.

Battlefront do have some say in their tournament scene but, as already said on this thread, they're going to have to invest in upgrading their models and production technology if they want to compete with the new kids on the block.
simply put in that way: BF will be NEVER be able to compete with plastic soldier company.
cost of the raw material, such as lead or resin, is nothing compared to the costs BF has in order to support the hobby.
also battlefront's range is much more vast while plastic soldier's one is entirely made of blockbusters..
so i'll expect BF to produce more expensive models even if they were plastic.
here is the rundown:
BF spends money in order to create a widespread ww2 gaming community
PSC reaps the rewards.
it's not going to last,so let's enjoy fow swan's song before it dies off.

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