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Tuesday, July 17, 2012

Blood Rodeo - the 6th edition transition


I think I've gotten more e-mails about this topic than anything else ever (yes, even Draigowing). Apparently it's a popular concept which has been brought into further light with 6th edition and...Allies. Everyone's favorite topic lately.

Blood Rodeo is about using a screen of biker models to protect the FNP/FC Assault Marines of a Blood Angels army for any unwanted assaults/attention and basically ferry them into combat. Concept and tactics for 5th edition outlined here.

In 5th edition this looked at bringing Bikes from the Blood Angels army who had the benefit of FNP but as we all know, bikes aren't cheap and bikes without combat tactics are bikes stuck in combat, particularly when they are a screening force. The ASM + heavy units (TH/SS, Sanguinary Guard, etc.) were used to try and break that stalemate and the Bikes gave the ASM some extra ranged dakka and the ability to get off charges against their opponents. What if those Bikes were scoring but didn't get FNP? What if they had Combat Tactics and what if we could squeeze the points for a Biker Command Squad? Something which can keep up with the army and smashes face? Sounds good actually...

So first things first, let's get our core down. 30 ASM + Libby should do nicely. We also need some Priests and at this level, that's a bit annoying unfortunately as you're sitting on the cusp of wanting two Priests but not going to get the maximum out of them since you're using Allies. Bite the bullet and take them.

Librarian w/Bike, Shield of Sanguine, Unleash Rage
2x Priest w/Jump Pack, Power Weapon
3x10x ASM w/meltaguns, PFist

That's 1020 so we've got plenty of room for the Bikes, Captain & Command Squad. We'll start with the Bikes + Captain...

Captain w/Bike, Storm Shield, Relic Blade
2x8x Bikes w/2x meltaguns, Attack Bike w/MM

That's 725 for a total of 1745 - going to be close for a Command Squad. The Bikes don't have PFists here as they have combat tactics now and without ever being escorted off the table, Combat Tactics rocks. The Captain is keeping with the old SS + Relic setup though the addition of Artificer armor or taking a PFist instead might be a good idea with the new way combat and challenges works in 6th edition. Points to try and keep in your pocket...

Anyway, we have 255 points for the Biker Command Squad which isn't enough for a full out tooling (generally 300+). Let's see what we can do and then look at the points we need to shave.

195 points gives us the basic squad with Bikes & FNP, so only 60 points left. Yikes. They cannot get any armor upgrades so storm shields to avoid death to power weapons is pretty important. There goes all 60 points. A Lightning Claw is what was used previously and they are still probably a good bet as the storm shield takes away the advantages of the power weapon for getting +1A. The Librarian is also giving them Unleash Rage which will be helpful in making sure those hits count. I'd stick with Lightning Claws at this point - without the +1A you're not going to benefit at all with power weapons, Lances without Hit & Run are risky, particularly with the fearless units abound, Axes you're just better off getting the Thunderhammer or Powerfist for and Mauls will have issue punching through Marine armor though could be usable for simple torrent. However, this unit is being run to deal with Terminators and the like in combat so running mass Power Axes might be a good idea - leave the anti-infantry/Marines up to the ASM.

Regardless, I'd pay the extra 15 points per model for a power weapon of some type - if you end up using all Lightning Claws change the 4th one to a Thunderhammer/PFist and if you end up using Power Axes, you can forego the last (but grab some melta bombs in combat).

Command Squad, Bikes, 4x Storm Shields, 4x Power Axes

At a minimum this puts you 60 points over. Time to shave some points and we'd also like to buff our Captain a bit. We want to keep our ASM core - 30 ASM is the minimum you really need to break things open and that's only the case because we have some other scoring units + the Command squad. We'll look to trim from one of the Bike squads then and turn one full squad into a half squad. A full squad costs 280 whilst a half squad costs 205 giving us the 60 extra we needed for the Command Squad and 15 to play with. Perfect...


Librarian w/Bike, Shield of Sanguine, Unleash Rage
2x Priest w/Jump Pack, Power Weapon
3x10x ASM w/meltaguns, PFist

Captain w/Bike, Storm Shield, Thunder Hammer, Artificer Armor
Command Squad, Bikes, 4x Storm Shields, 4x Power Axes8x Bikes w/2x meltaguns, Attack Bike w/MM
5x Bikes w/2x meltaguns, Attack Bike w/MM

We can drop a final Bike from the small squad (still five strong with AB so counts as a Troops unit) to get some extras here and there on the characters or Command Squad (like plasma weapons, melta-bombs, etc.). Otherwise, that's Blood Rodeo taken to 6th edition.

There's still a bit of inefficiency with the Priests + ASM and potentially running this with the Marines as the parent list with attached ASM and then some Hybridity with Dreadnoughts/Predators running around wouldn't go amiss. Playtesting required - and no, this list hasn't been used yet so drop any feedback you get. I'll endeavour to do some myself this week.

The theory still works and as we looked at before with Jumpers in general, they should fare fine in 6th edition. Bikers as a pure army probably aren't going to work any longer - low model count with reduced cover hurts, particularly with more AP2 weapons out there but should still work fine as a Hybrid army - as is the case here. There are 50+ T4/5/3+ models out there and most of them have FNP, so even mass plasma isn't going to chew through them. All platforms are fast so mass melta is still an excellent option, particularly as they are looking to engage the enemy though some Plasma might not got amiss on the Bike platforms. Impact hits from both units can help raise the damage in combat but it's still important to take down MCs/Dreads before engaging them, particularly with the ASM who do not have combat tactics. Flyers will be an issue and you could replace something on the Libby for Blood Lance but even then, that's only one option and this lack combined with a general increase in power for 2+ saves in combat will probably see this specific Jumper build be less viable than it was in 5th. Anti-infantry is again mostly combat related outside of the Bikes bolters and with large fearless units coming to play, this may end up being an issue for such armies in 6th.

Comments (40)

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TheMachineGod's avatar

TheMachineGod · 667 weeks ago

My main thought whilst reading that whole thing was. "How to deal with Flyers?"
I'm not sure how many peopel are going to bring Flyers to events but that woudl be one oft eh first thigns I'd want to work out with that list.
Is that much mobile melta going to be enough?
No flyer protection at all? Good luck killing more than one. Then again, you can bubble wrap the objectives from flyers and contents, I guess. But any anti infantry flyer will hurt a fair bit against your army.
5 replies · active 667 weeks ago
How many anti-infantry flyers are there, really? Valk is never taken, the Dakkajet kills 1-2 bike Marines a turn and the Raven costs a ton if you put the sponson bolters on, so not sure how many people will do that.
Correct pretty much with flyers - it's more about making them inefficient than worrying about them.

What is your answer to flyers anyway? Stormravens really for BA and they aren't exactly cheap.
Storm Talon? It makes the orcs go "Thatz good dakka"

I would run it with space marines as the parent list, with blood angels as the support. Get your assault squads that can take melta(Grumble). Maybe cut back on the special equipment for the bikes a little so that the captain can get artificier(for that 2+/3++) Also by taking three smaller squads at 4 with attack bike I think you could get 3 of them as well as open up some more points. Still have a solid core of 5 pretty durable troops
Bond, Rick Bond's avatar

Bond, Rick Bond · 667 weeks ago

Scythes will ruin your day
A Tesla Destructor kills about One Space Marine base/turn after armor saves and FNP. So even if you have 6 of them, and not one dies or gets forced off the table, your killing on average 24 bases by the end of Turn 5. Meanwhile the rest of your army is getting lassoed by the rodeo.

I was in the Scythes will eat the world group before I really got a good grip on 6th. I still think they are great, but they certainly aren't auto win, particularly against null-vehicle armies.
Fists on ASM is not really necessary anymore. I would also advise on artificer armour for the captain - 2+ is the new new black.

I think I would like plasma on those bikes so that once they've escorted the ASM into midfied they can pull back and pew pew from a safer distance.
3 replies · active 667 weeks ago
True re Fists - didn't really mention that in post. A more challenge oriented option could work or neked.

Captain has AA.

Not sure on plasma yet for Bikes - it could obviously be very useful as it's more potent in dropping MCs, particularly when RF starts to happen and you get that S7 shooting from afar initially... Shall check both.
Probably Axes or Lances then, would you say? Saves 30 points I guess.
For jumpers going up the center I would actually leave the sergeants nekkid unless I really had nothing to spend points on anymore, at which point I would start throwing meltabombs and plasma pistols on them.
swanson4969's avatar

swanson4969 · 667 weeks ago

I have a question under turbo boost in the bike section there is no mention of any cover save. Did I miss that or is there no more cover save for turboboosting?
1 reply · active 667 weeks ago
They get a 4+. Jink + Turboboost.
I think a 4x Plasma gun command squad with Libby and Captain with hellfire rounds (all on bikes) would be awesome. They all get FNP and they all have preferred enemy, hit on 3 (rerolling 1s) and wounds on 2s (rerolling 1s) is a very scary thing. It's like Hive Guard with Preferred Enemy.
1 reply · active 667 weeks ago
Preferred Enemy can only be cast at the start of the Assault Phase, and lasts until the end of the turn (hence it would never work for shooting)
I'm not sure about hitting power of this army though, seems like it would bounce off dedicated assault units, especially Paladins and Nob Bikers, quite easily.

How about dropping some ASM for Vanguards/Assault Termies/Death Company? Especially you are allying SM, you could get cheap TH/SS Termies
I think Blood Rodeo would benefit from Mephy Kirbs.
1 reply · active 667 weeks ago
Mephy would only be target for AP2 -1 weapons since it has no hulls to hide behind.
You guys are being silly by acting like Fliers don't matter at all. Well that's oke, it takes a while to understand what a new edition means. If you really think you can just afford not being able to hurt fliers, then you're in for a surprise sooner or later, but do as you wish. I don't think Kirby should promote such ideas (Ignore fliers) on this blog, but that's his own choice of course.

2 Ork Dakkajets shoot down nearly 1/4th of your army over the course of a game, while that's 1/8th of his.
Nightscythes will drop units of distance objectives and you can't do a fuck about it. They'll shoot down some bikes too btw.
Doomscythes will hurt.

Other Fliers are less of a problem I guess, although some of them are transports too and overall they still do ouchy ouchy. There are likely more fliers to come too, invalidating lists like these even more.

No, I do not approve this concept at all.
19 replies · active 667 weeks ago
What does a Bike list do for AA, though? Closest I can think of is to have the Librarian drop his powers in order to gain the Divination primary power, then use the Command Squad (with Plasma) to maneuver behind some Flyer and shoot it up the tailpipe.

Frankly, I think we're waiting to see who will get Flak missiles, then putting Devastators into most non-vehicle lists. 2-3 squads of Devs, plus a Priest for FNP, inside an Aegis Defense Line, with one of the AA guns, will probably be the default Heavy Support for BA. And a solid shooting squad (3 Attack Bikes with MMs?) that the Librarian can Guide so they're a backup AA option, perhaps. Same thing for non-Mech SW (with Long Fangs instead), and I suppose Space Marines may even bite the bullet and run some Devs even with their higher point costs. Dark Angels are going to hope that they get Flak for their relatively cheap Typhoon Speeders and for Belial's Facebeaters. Still, really, what will be the AA options for an army that doesn't want to buy its own Flyers (or, like SW/SM, doesn't get any without allying).
Correct, a Bike list has practicly nothing for AA, which is my entire point: The concept does not work for that reason. I agree with all the things you say I think.
I think the bigger problem is that the current codexes are simply not equipped to handle flyers well. There's, what, five Skyfire units in the ENTIRE GAME right now? Is it required to ally with those armies just to accommodate them? How many slots does one have to dedicate on suboptional AA units?

Flyers are annoying, yeah, but until we get some better units spread more across the books, there is only so much one can do.
Does this make my point any less valid? I don't think it does:
-For now the list does not work in my opinion and I gave reasons for it.
-When there is acces to more AA then the list still doesn't work, because this list then still doesn't have it included.
Correct, which is why that was included in the analysis.

If all missiles are FAQ'd to skyfire or Signums actually work, then Devastators are going to be a lot more useful - one would more than likely need to lose the Command Squad and work anti-2+ save in some other way (i.e. Sanguinary Guard all with Axes).
Flyers can only turn 90 degrees, so just turbo boost everyone behind them and you are immune to shooting. With multiple flyers, chances are someone may get shot, but it won't be 1/4 of your army. Night Scythes have the same problem and shorter range.

Also the point of a list like this is that it is mostly infantry and most flyers will likely be anti-vehicle (to down other flyers).
Unless they decide to just switch to Hover mode, turn around, and open fire on you with everything they've got. They've only got to weather one turn of shooting before they can switch back to Zoom mode, after all, and all the anti-flyer shooting will have to deal with a 5+ cover save.
If they are in hover mode, they will die to your melta.
At least one of those melta units should be destroyed by the flyer's shooting, if not two if the flyer has PotMS. It's more dangerous than staying in Zoom, yes, but it's also significantly more destructive in that instance. And again, while a 5+ save isn't spectacular, it's not nothing, either.
Storm Ravens aren't cheap.
To elaborate: Your infantry need only weather one turn of anti tank shooting with 4+ cover and then you can unleash your full shooting on them.
With enough melta and even some CC goodness fliers in hover mode are not that scary. Besides most flyers cannot hover.
What Flyers can't hover?
All Orks, Dark Eldar and Necron fliers are supersonic and cannot hover.
Huh, you're right; I missed that before. Though it makes sense, I suppose, because why should non-Imperials have nice things, too?
Think before you write things like these please, because you look at Fliers in a vacuum now:

I have my ground forces in 1 quarter of the board. I move my fliers in at the other quarter (18" in a 30 degree arc or something depending on where you are with your bikes, not that important, fact is that the flier(s) aint near my ground forces)

Now you are going to turboboost behind my fliers? Don't be silly, because that means you moved away from my ground forces (the things you cán actually hurt). Congrats, you avoid flier fire while the rest of my army (I'd take 2 or 3 fliers in a list, not more) can just fire at you.
The point of this list is to escort marines into CC, which, coincidentally, is where they are 100% protected from flyers. Push for combat faster and harder than ever before.
1/4th of the army isn't going to mean much if the rest of the army is dead.

This has already been hinted on by other posters, but as most flyers (particularly the one that can be taken in bunches) are supersonic, the best strategy against them for many armies is just use their movement rules against them. They _must_ move 18+", and can only pivot 90 degrees. Get behind them, clog up their perpendicular lane of movement, then they have a bunch of planes shooting at a whole lot of nothing.
Same thing as I just said to the other guy: You guys need to look at the total picture: Go ahead, move behind the fliers, please move away from my whole army just so 2 Fliers can't shoot at you. Doesn't work.
To be fair, though, 2 Flyers don't scare anyone. They're good, they're point-effective, and they do damage. But they aren't the "If I don't deal with them, I lose" threat that 6 Scythes are. If you bring on 2 Flyers, I'll take shots at them with units that are firing Snap Shot anyhow, or if I do get into the rear, and otherwise I shoot at what I can hurt. When Flyers are a problem is when you take so many that they do too much damage to just ignore them all, and then you make the rest of the army be resilient to shooting, and then I would really have a problem if I don't have a good amount of AA on the field.

In the end, 2 Flyers are good units but don't dominate the game. 6 Flyers will dominate if you cannot come up with a solid AA strategy, and it's at this point that people are saying to turbo-boost behind them. 3-4 Flyers? Not sure which group they'll fall into.
It's the Storm Raven(s) with Furioso Dreadnoughts inside that would worry me with this list.
Myreknight's avatar

Myreknight · 667 weeks ago

I run a white scars list a lot, and I still have yet to decide if I wanna run flyer protection or just ignore them. It's a tough call, best I can think of is ally with guard and take vendettas. Storm talon is nice but 150 to make it a flyer hunter hasn't sold me yet.

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