Chaos Hell Brute
Chaos Lord
6x Chosen
20 or 18x Cultists
Dark Angels Company Master
Librarian & Chaplain
10x Tacticals
5x Deathwing
3x Ravenwing
Kirb your enthusiasm!
"...generalship should be informing list building." - Sir Biscuit
Saturday, August 18, 2012
6th edition starter set minis
For those who haven't seen them, there's some starter set pics & videos floating around. And a crappy official video from GW. Anyway here are the piccies. Think Advance Order is up in a week or so with the following included:
Chaos Hell Brute
Chaos Lord
6x Chosen
20 or 18x Cultists
Dark Angels Company Master
Librarian & Chaplain
10x Tacticals
5x Deathwing
3x Ravenwing
Chaos Hell Brute
Chaos Lord
6x Chosen
20 or 18x Cultists
Dark Angels Company Master
Librarian & Chaplain
10x Tacticals
5x Deathwing
3x Ravenwing
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clever handle · 662 weeks ago
Using the current books (and pricing cultists like guardsmen, and the helbrute as a dreadnought....) Dark Angels rack in 965 total points compared to Chaos come in at 553. This is based purely on WISIWIG so doesn't include possible upgrades like chaos marks, mastercrafting, etc.
The points even out if the Chaos player takes everything & the Dark Angels player takes either the tactical marines, terminators and a single HQ; or the tactical marines, Bikes and two HQ's.
.... just means I need to buy two boxes.
The lord & chosen certainly make the current line of CSM, Terminators & Cult troops look lame. Far too big a difference between lots of gribbly and barely any gribbly
Sethis_II 87p · 662 weeks ago
Alastores · 662 weeks ago
I know Marines sell.
But the more attention they pay to Marines, the more Marines sell.
And the more Marines sell, the more attention they get.
And there ARE limits - Dumping twice as many points onto the Marine side is just crazy. "They put what fits in the box". Ok. Sure. So...remove the Grand Master and give Chaos another Champion.
Or maybe cultists will suprise us and have AP2 Str 8 autocannon? (Actually, perhaps GW is just overestimating how powerful the Hellbrute is in the match up).
ArcadesDolor 24p · 662 weeks ago
1) If you take two armies that are roughly equivalent and you give one of them two extra HQs without points-balancing the other side in any way, the side with two extra HQs might have the advantage. Imagine!
2) Aside from armament, we don't know what Cultists do. It's possible you can kit them out with Marks to make them ded 'ard an' killy.
3) The Space Marines had a points advantage of about a hundred over the Orks in the Assault on Black Reach set, but the Orks had a pretty solid chance of winning that battle. Don't write Chaos off as losers just yet.
4) If the imbalance is really ridiculous, just give the Chaos player one or two of the Loyalist player's units (librarian is Chaos sorceror, anyone?). Call them Fallen. Balance.
Sethis_II 87p · 662 weeks ago
2. They have Autoguns and the others have 2x CCWs. Assume a Guard profile. Add a Chaos Mark (+1A, +1T, +1I or a 5++). You still have 20 Guardsmen. Each 10 man squad will fold to 5 marines.
3. The points advantage in this box is close to 400, going by current books.
4. I'm not talking about adding extra models. Anyone can do that.
At the most basic level, Chaos has a Plasma Pistol, a Multimelta and a DCCW that ignores Termie armour. The longest ranged gun they have is a single 24" MM shot and 10 lasguns. On the other hand Marines have 1 Plasma Gun, 1 Plasma Cannon, 4 Storm Bolters, 1 Assault Cannon, 7 Boltguns and 3 Twin Linked Boltguns that can start picking off the Chosen from 24" away. Once the Chosen are gone (1-2 turns), the only melee threat is the Hellbrute, which coincidentally dies to Powerfists rather easily.
So long as the Plasma guns don't overheat, kill their owners and miss turn 1, and the Marine player is sensible enough to keep the Termies back to engage the Hellbrute, Chaos has a near-unwinnable disproportion of firepower coming down on their heads. Even IF the chosen hit combat with the termies, they only have 1 AP2 weapon. And this is leaving out the Libby using things like Gate or whatever.
clever handle · 662 weeks ago
Apathyman · 662 weeks ago
clever handle · 662 weeks ago
And none of those characters are Belial or Sameil so no, the dark angels only have one troops choice in the box.
ArcadesDolor 24p · 662 weeks ago
We also don't know how the Mark system works this edition. It might be changed (improved) from the awful crap of the Gavdex. We don't know how the Hellbrute will work. It looks kind of like a Dreadnought-sized Obliterator. It's not farfetched to suspect that it has a trick or two in its giant beefy sleeves.
I'm not saying the forces are balanced, but I am suggesting that maybe they're not quite as apocalyptically uneven as you might think, especially when you account for the illegal FOC of the Marines.
clever handle · 662 weeks ago
I imagine you'll get a couple scenarios like "brother librarian McDouche has revealed himself to be a member of the fallen. Chaplain Turboasskicker & Company Master M.C. Fresh lead an infiltration mission consisting of a squad of space marines & deathwing vets to capture McDouche & slay is heretic allies"
clever handle · 662 weeks ago
also note I beleive the chinese PDF indicates the Chaos Lord is only armed with a power weapon - NOT in fact a Daemon weapon... subtract 25 points from team Chaos!
Alastores · 662 weeks ago
Either that, or everything else in the box will be available seperately, depending on how you interpret "Exclusive".
ArcadesDolor 24p · 662 weeks ago
clever handle · 662 weeks ago
I like the box, believe I stated I'd be buying two. I believe I also stated that the points balance out closely very quickly if the DA player loses one or two non troop units & that is a fact. The DA player gets a wider variety of units to play with but that makes sense to GW for a starter-set. They see two true beginners picking up the box & playing through the missions presented in the little mini-book as both sides. They enjoy the game & prefer the flavour of one of the two forces & then buy more boxes to expand their foces & hey look buy this expansion etc.
ArcadesDolor 24p · 662 weeks ago
Sethis_II 87p · 662 weeks ago
And the Marines in the starter set haven't been a legal army since Second Edition, so I don't know exactly how that's relevant?
ArcadesDolor 24p · 662 weeks ago
Are some middle-schoolers going to pick up the game, halfass their way through the book, get stomped as Chaos and decide Chaos sucks? Probably. Are some other middle-schoolers gonna curbstomp Chaos with their unbalanced starter army and then get delusions of invulnerability? Quite possibly. But even a mildly attentive player will notice the discrepancies and adjust accordingly. And again, that's assuming that GW doesn't *know* about the unbalanced forces and specifically address them in the quick-start rules.
Sethis_II 87p · 662 weeks ago
It's just another (rather more blatant) example of GW favouring their poster boys at the expense of everyone who doesn't have an aquila on their tighty whities. That's all I was saying.
ishtheninja 66p · 662 weeks ago
Alastores · 662 weeks ago
Seriously? What part of "Starter Set" means "Cannot actually be used for the game it is starting you off in"
Sethis_II 87p · 662 weeks ago
A new player is supposed to buy this, some glue, some brushes and some paints. At minimum. That's his introduction to 40k. He then plays some games with his brother/father/buddy at home. 80% or more of those games are going to be won by Space Marines. What do you think that's going to make him want to collect?
It's a starter box. That means most people's first game(s) will be played using the contents of it *with nothing else added*. If it isn't fit for that purpose (to provide fun and balanced games), doesn't that seem like a problem to anyone but me? You shouldn't have to fuck around with adding things and taking away things, and playing using random extra rules just for this one game. It's like selling a chess set with white having an extra queen. It doesn't help the white player get better, it discourages the black player from playing, and it leads to un-fun games.
ArcadesDolor 24p · 662 weeks ago
Sethis_II 87p · 662 weeks ago
Not only that, but why would Space Marines be the only ones who get that option? Why doesn't the Chaos side have some Obliterators, or a squad of CSM that they can also choose between?
Precedent is that the guide book tells you to play 1 model vs 1 model, followed by 1 squad vs 1 squad, followed by whole army vs whole army. There has never been (and there is no reason for) a situation where it says "you can take unit X but not Y, and you can never field the army in this box all in one go".
ishtheninja 66p · 662 weeks ago
Alastores · 662 weeks ago
ArcadesDolor 24p · 662 weeks ago
To counteract the glaring points imbalance? To provide a scenario in which the forces are balanced? To provide a contrast to "slap everything on table, have a bad time" thing that you seem so worried about?
And who said "allowed"? I'm not saying "THIS BOOK FORBIDS YOU FROM USING ALL YOUR MODELS!!! FUCK OFF IF YOU LIKE TERMINATORS AND BIKES AT THE SAME TIME!!!" What I'm saying - and have said two or three times now - is that there's a good chance they will include one or more *scenarios* in the introductory set that will present you with balanced point options. If you want an even game, you will use those scenarios. Or, you'll do as I did with the 5th ed box when teaching my friend, and you'll find a way to balance the point costs between full forces because you're not a giant shithead.
Note that scenarios with balanced points values *DO NOT* preclude a scenario where you use all the models. But if they include multiple scenarios, then they can take you through a narrative mini-campaign, which is very much in keeping with 6th edition's cinematic mindset. You keep insisting that imposing limits on a fair match would preclude you from using all your models in an all-out match, and that is just not the case.
I just don't understand what point you're trying to argue here. You're saying "the forces are unbalanced, why aren't they balanced?" And then you're saying "there's no reason to balance the forces because then the Dark Angels player won't get to use all his models." They're not compatible arguments.
Sethis_II 87p · 662 weeks ago
Actually, I'm saying neither. My initial point (which appears to have triggered something of a OMG response) was "The forces are unbalanced, Space Marines will win all the time. Shock, horror."
I know why I believe they're not balanced - to sell more space marines by making them look like the better option.
And I couldn't care less what the Marine player uses, I'm pointing out the fact that:
1. This is unfair to the Chaos player - the Marine player gets to use more units and change his army around and generally have more customisation available to him.
2. In previous editions, even the ones with narrative campaigns such as 2nd Edition, what happened was that you built up to the final mission, where you used the entire contents of the box plus two cardboard cutouts of dreadnoughts. There has not been a box set yet where you couldn't put the entire contents of the box on the table at once and expect a reasonably close fight. Except for now. And the question remains: Why? Given that GW are trying to get as many people as possible to use as many models as possible, doesn't it stand to reason that they want people to go "ta-da!" at the end of the scenario book as they put out their entire army? And if the Marine player *is* allowed to use all his units in the final scenario, then he has to be hamstrung by the scenario special rules to compensate for the imbalance, which is just stupid.
I can't even be bothered to talk about this any more, it's not like I actually gave a damn in the first place.
Alastores · 662 weeks ago
Either:-
1:- The box implies to newbies that you should field the armies against each other. Marines "look" more powerful.
2:- The box says to follow scenarios. The sides are then balanced, but the Marine side has more choice, so they'll look more preferable for a newbie to expand into a full army.
3:- The box tells people that for their battles (after they go through the scenarios) the Marine player can't use everything, but gets to choose. This means the Marines have a choice, and so are more preferable.
It's not a "oh my god, this is so unfair!" argument, it's a "gah, Marines get the incremental advantage AGAIN. Godsdamned poster boys".
Banthian · 662 weeks ago
Dronze · 662 weeks ago
Alex R · 662 weeks ago
Shadar_Logoth 92p · 662 weeks ago
Marshal_Wilhelm 71p · 662 weeks ago
Craig · 662 weeks ago
Grovel 61p · 662 weeks ago
Scuzgob 96p · 662 weeks ago
Threadmiser 79p · 662 weeks ago
Scuzgob 96p · 662 weeks ago
though chaos really does like slapping eyes everywhere
Ansu · 662 weeks ago
Lol jks, I'll probably run them as allies.
Sethis_II 87p · 662 weeks ago
anon 101 · 662 weeks ago
Craig · 662 weeks ago
guest · 662 weeks ago
Scuzgob 96p · 662 weeks ago
wolfbane · 662 weeks ago
Scuzgob 96p · 662 weeks ago
ishtheninja 66p · 662 weeks ago
SaintBeerrun · 662 weeks ago
Auretious Taak · 662 weeks ago
Anyone got specifics on rules?
Sethis_II 87p · 662 weeks ago
Rumours for the CSM codex say:
"Can swap the Multi-Melta for a butcher-cannon, or twin reaper auto cannons (which is pretty cool, since that's an entire riflemen in one arm, but with less range), twin-linked lascannon or a twin-linked heavy flamer, can swap combi-bolter for a meltagun or heavy flamer
Has rampage
Mark of Khorne: Rage USR
Mark of Nurgle: 5+ restore a hull point OR repair immobilized / weapon destroyed at the start of a turn. Does not let it get back up after having been killed unlike Unholy Vigor.
Mark of Slaanesh: Sonic scream, gives it offensive/defensive grenades
Mark of Tzeench: flame weapons (if it has any) are +1 strength and -1 AP (heavy flamers are AP3... whaaaat)
You can change the shooty arm for a Power Fist. The power fist doesn't have an inbuilt weapon though so you can't get another flamer or meltagun on it. This upgrade is free.
The autocannon is low points cost, the butcher cannon is moderate, the lascannon is expensive and the twin-flamer is free.
It's also still crazed, but crazed works differently now.
If you get fire frenzy, you double shot at the closest enemy target, not closest target. Only if there are no enemies in range do you shoot a friendly target (twice). If nothing is STILL in range, you treat it as blood rage instead. (so upgrade your stuff to flamers and give it another power fist if you always want it ANGRY)
Blood Rage makes the Hellbrute have to move towards the closest target. Rolls 2d6 to run (pick the highest) and can charge, and must charge, the closest target within 12". (rolled as normal). If immobilized, you treat as a Fire Frenzy."
Take that as you will. It all seems pretty feasible to me. I think the "Twin Reaper Autocannon" will be twin linked instead of two guns, simply due to precedent. Also, a Tzeentchian one of these can put out two Hellstorm Cannon shots if it feels like it, while keeping a DCCW for punching things. Time will tell if that's an effective build or not.
rahakanji 23p · 662 weeks ago
Auretious Taak · 662 weeks ago
Mark of Nurgle to restore Hull points could be quite useful on high end armoured vehicles if it remains as the above, and ap 3 flamers, yeah, fun times.