Edit: This post was meant for discussion based upon a reader's reply though in hindsight improperly handled on my part. My apologies.
The Dark Angel rather than replying sent me some long ass email in relation to our recent post on Venomspam. Here it is for discussion =D.
The Dark Angel rather than replying sent me some long ass email in relation to our recent post on Venomspam. Here it is for discussion =D.
Hi Will
Not that i've tried it out much but my ideas for Dark Eldar are:
Foot Dark Eldar have never worked for me (though 10 grotesques acting as portal delivery did a bit). I still think mech is the way to go.
Simply a 50/50 roll for night fight brings us so many benefits considering skimmers moving gives them 5+ cover add shrouded to that and it's great let alone shrouded plus 25% covered by a ruin. :) happy Now with rapid fire the way it is night shields are mandatory and now there won't be any guess work we can plan the distances all out with premeasuring.
What you've got to consider now is that with most cover dropping to a 5+ or the ability to focus fire disintegrators are better. A venom with NS and the 2nd cannon costs 75points and averages 1 and 1/3 dead marines a turn. Whilst a tripple dizze ravager costs 115 (NS no FF obviously) and averages 2 and 2/3 dead marines. With those damage to firepower outputs the dizzie ravager is now better per points. However the first problem is the loss in AT. So 6 venoms + a rapejet was about right in the old system. Now two dizzie ravagers is about the same vs marnies as 4 venoms and even better against terminators. So we can keep that fire power level the same by going two venoms and two dizze ravagers (the bonus is the ravages are immune to bolters too). With the rape jet now suffering the problems of being Av10 I think the void raven is in a lance bomb plus two S9 lances and say NS, FF and 2 shattershards (i'm sure you can work out why those upgrades) and it's good at taking on tanks and raping infantry as much as it can. However it won't be on the table turn when when you want to start shooting. So a 3rd venom or dizze ravager can help shore up that place of a little more anti infantry you miss out on). And if going for more an alpha strike list then the flyer will simply be dropped for a third ravager for more guns on table turn 1.
So Anti infantry for me is 3 venoms and 2 dizzie ravagers + a one turn void raven that switched to tank hunting for the most likley only other turn it will get a shot. Now about those venoms short range blasterborn aren't as hot as they were so I'm thinking if venoms get a 5++ well why not stick double darklanceborn inside, as they will won't tos stay still in the first place and that helps fix up some of our long range AT problems. As for troops you could go another venom units but I'd much rather prefer 5 man warriors and blaster (or wracks) in NS raiders, not nly does this bring even more long range AT but our weak scoring units are now in the slight better 3 hull point rides too (hey it's DE use everything you can to survive).
Now about surviving, well unable to bring in necrons for pulse goodness and not wanting to run a combat army (ye because T3 guys with very little armour love overwatch and potential failing charges through 5+ cover......:( sad I think i'll try and roll the warlord trait that lets me choose to make it night fight first turn. Of course alpha striking helps too with enemies not being able to reserve off and being able to punish armies that brought one too many flyers and don't have the staying power to last that long till they come on. So this would call for vect / baron or both. Now at 2000points i'm sure you could fit in vect but at 1750 i think we'll have to take the baron. Now where for him to go hellions with the reduction of cover from 4 to 5 and stealth may well be up anyway and FNp dropping to 5 from 4 i don't think hellions are as good as they were. So that leaves the baron to join beastmasters (possible) or my favourite place scourges. Whilst he won't confer his re-roll dangerous terrain he does bring a pretty good wound soak in the form of a shadowfield and be able to have the haywires in the second line just behind him and pawn saves off to the other more useless chums if you don't wont to risk loosing the warlord. Also scourges a dark lance is better over all (pen + destroy, penetrating + destroy Hp remove and glance Hp remove) then a haywire against vehicles with 3 or more hull points whilst the haywire wins out when shooting at 1 or 2 hull points.
All in all i'd be looking at something like this for 1850, 1750 may well be a case of simply drop some blasters or only run the 5 raider units. Unless you wan't to go the route of hamey and 3 man wracks and no warriors in troops.
Baron
3x(3x trueborn, 2xdarklance in venom with 2nd cannon and night shields)
6x(5xwarriors + blaster in raider with NS) one with grisly trophies for the baron to stick next to so he won't run a way as much with ld 9
5xscourges - 2xhaywire
3xravagers (2xtripple dizzie and 1 tripple lance)
Total 1850
none of that was proof read much so if i don't make sense halfway through it's me being lazy. L2english!
regards
The Dark Angel
Logging you in...
Alastores · 659 weeks ago
Also, the "fun" terms for units get taken a bit far. Dizzie ravagers and rape jets. Yes, I know what you mean, but...Seriously. I can't read those paragraphs, they sound like a 13 year old trying to act up. (I work with teenagers, this is from experience).
SleepyPillow · 659 weeks ago
Baron: Yeah the +1 to who starts is cool. But is it really so mandatory that you stick him with harpies? Without a beastpack /hellion group /or some allied eldar jetbike shenanigans I don't see him doing much for his points. Not to mention that you can lose you warlord really easy in this setup.
Trueborn: Making no sense whatsoever. Ravagers with DL's do the same job for cheaper and they CAN move around without starting to hit on ONES. Blasterborn are still effective and the best of their kind, especially if you spam them, like that.
Warriors and their Raiders: You want dissies? Why wouldn't you take them here?! Dark Lances on raiders do jack shit a decent amount of times. First rule of a fancy, dark, space elf general? Focus the darn fire. Let's think shortly about what's easier to maneuver and would hit harder/more reliable, 6 Raiders with DL's next to each other or 3 Ravager with DL's? You got the idea most likely.
Ravagers: Yeah, here we are. Let's take some dissies on one of our most reliable AT unit, so we destroy this new 2+ infantry spam meta! Never saw someone doing that, but hey, I bet it will be coming soon™.
Ah some sentences that really made me cringe.
"night shields are mandatory" - No, they're not. All it prevents on a vehicle that has to move in rapidfire range for its passengers is being in easy melta range. Long & mid range AT still shots the hell out of your fancy, night shielded raiders/venoms.
"What you've got to consider now is that with most cover dropping to a 5+ or the ability to focus fire disintegrators are better." - *better at AI, what we never needed. Nearly nonexistent at AT, which we always needs since nearly everyone still plays lots of vehicles.
"Also scourges a dark lance is better over all" - Giving a heavy weapon to a unit that pays nearly half of it's price for being able to move 12'' each turn? Yep. I would just outmaneuver them in a way that you have to pray for ones all night long.
There were more, but I feel like I said everything else earlier already.
Oh well,Dark Angels, stick to your bolters.
SandraD · 659 weeks ago
guest · 659 weeks ago
The list doesn't make sense, the commentary was written poorly, it took me awhile to sift thru the ignorant pet names for units. The author even admitted that he didn't even proof read...come on. This article is a forum post and shouldn't be on a blog.
Elias · 659 weeks ago
Kirby 118p · 659 weeks ago
Whether or not the content has worth or not still doesn't stop meaningful discussion coming from it. Yes the grammatical sense and occasional word usage isn't great but there are still concepts to discuss - bad or not.
chris h. · 659 weeks ago
Fenix · 659 weeks ago
I do really like the idea of sticking dissies on my raiders. Once DL shot just isn't enough to truly be effective.
Foam · 659 weeks ago
The Dark Angels is a seasoned 40k player who knows his stuff, I have watched him play in tournaments and had discussions with him personally about various aspects of the meta-game, and more often than not walk having gained something.
Get off of your high horses and recognise the post for what it is, he has taken the time to give his insight and knowledge as a DE player to Kirby in the form of an e-mail so that he can perhaps offer something to the community. It was Kirby that deemed it acceptable to post this ON HIS BLOG.
This is reminiscent of the CoTT fiasco earlier this year where one person said something in poor taste and was persecuted over pages on the WAU forums. If you can't handle jovial banter kindly logout, never return and probably think about removing the self righteous stick that is tightly lodged up your anus.
Rape on The Dark Angel and rape on Kirby
~Foam
The Dark Angel · 659 weeks ago
Scuzgob 96p · 659 weeks ago
Alastores · 659 weeks ago
Trueborn:- Dark Lances in Venoms why?
Kabalites:- Sure, that may have worked last edition. Good luck claiming any objectives with those squads.
Scourges:- Ok, so..uh...sincethey are the only thing not in a tank, all the enemy boltguns point at these guys straight off and they die.
Ravagers:- -shrugs-.
The Dark Angel · 659 weeks ago
If my overusage of the word rape has offended you then tough shit be offended it's a pet name for a unit that we've had thrown around in my local gaming club etc and as i said previously it wasn't my intention for this to be a polished post at all. Would anyone like a cleaned up version, or are you all too offended already?
Also to all those who write my tactics and ideas off as crap, well first off yes i may be wrong. I've only played a couple of games of 6th ed and these were my initial thoughts. Still having 5th ed stuck in my head whilst still currently playing 5th ed (ATC coming up) does mess with you.
Any who fire away about me being some hyped up 11 year old who knows nothing about playing 40K.
Auretious Taak · 659 weeks ago
Years ago, when I first started using the internet, over on the original GW Mordheim Forums, I used the term 'Grammar Nazi' to describe someone's attitude to terminology and grammar use on a forum which has an international following and reader/commentorship. I got chewed out very heavily because unwittingly the man whom I had addressed was quite old, and his parents were forced into concentration camps during world war II and he along with them.
What I find so screwed up about everyone's comments here is that you are all having a go over a term that offends some people, but to quite a lot of players of games just doesn't affect them. they understand what Rape means in the context of real life but in gaming vernacular, it's not that bad. It's hinted at as you just got pwned so bad you ain';t walking away from that without some seriously negative experiences which is basically the heart of the terminology use, but anything that makes use of the 'nazi' group of terms in such a derogatory manner is not only offensive to a great proportion of the planets population, but it brings up a lot of unnecessaryily wanted memories for many people as well. We live in a different age, the world is so much smaller now, but use of words which are intended in a derogatory and offensive manner to classify things shouldn't be ignored.
You are all screaming and yelling about the brief use of "Rape Jet" but you insensitive arseholes are ignoring the use of "Feminazi", a word which in the context of this whole discussion is completely out of place and far, far worse then Rape Jet.
Open your eyes you hypocritical wankers.
Alastores · 659 weeks ago
If not - might this then not be why people still look down on our hobbies? Gamers in generally are somewhat looked down upon due to the foul mouthed teenager stereotype.
3++ is generally very good at avoiding that. There are well written articles, supported by cogent argument. There's few, if any, swearing. I appreciate that this wasn't meant to be an article, but surely if we want to stop being stereotyped, we should stop acting like the stereotype?
ben · 659 weeks ago
Look at the list even form my low point of understanding it doesn't look good, it your stuff going to be fragile then you need to take it on mass there simply not enough unit here to do the job i feel.
Specifically Me · 659 weeks ago
Dear Sir,
I purposely went out of my way today to visit your free website. I often enjoy your articles, though not necessarily every one of them. Well, today I read an article that you explained wasn't really an article. You went out of your way to provide a bit of context regarding the source and your reason for posting it. Well, boy howdy. Let me just say that OBVIOUSLY this site is written for me. Specifically me. Anything that I don't enjoy enormously is an affront to me and my superior existence. And you...er this article...er email that you said you were just throwing up said the word "rape." Hmph. I hope you get kidnapped by the USA, shipped to a black site, and are vigorously tortured for the rest of your life you rape loving rape apologist. Even that is better than rape and you should be so lucky! Even thinking the word rape is misogynistic. What? More men are raped in the USA than women? Its not really misogynistic? Well, it IS certainly offensive. Its worse than that time I was playing battlefield and I was rap...wrecking everyone and someone sent me a message calling me a ni...bad word. So, next time your writing a free article for me you better make it perfect or I swear I will start a fight with internet strangers regarding the modern lexicon.
-Me
now in all seriousness
I haven't played in any tournaments but I find MSU on nonMEQ strange. I feel like, and especially with DE, the units inside can't really do anything. Once their rap... venom (which honestly venom pretty much entails 2x splinter cannon so "rape jet" feels less convenient than say..."venom") is blown up (and half of them die in the explosion) they're just useless. They'll either be cleaned up in a multi assault or picked off by some MSUMEQs whose razorback got lanced to death last turn. Though I do love the 3x disintegrator ravager. It really just eats everything it shoots at. Reserving it is also fun cuz it comes in after all the transports are popped (though you lose the chance to glance a rhino). Also for my HQ i just love the Duke w/ 9 warriors in a raider w/ splinter racks. 18 rerolling 3s and 3s just rap....crushes opponents. Plus combat drugs. Plus last time he entered combat he ate 4 chaos termies and would have gotten more if I didn't always roll 1s for shadow field saves (is it just me?). Oh and Night shields on my witch raiders only. They're the only ones who'll get close to rapid fire range.
lethlis 41p · 659 weeks ago
I would also try to work in some wyches with haywire, just as a counter assault unit if need be. Instead of some warriors.
Like the dark lance units in venoms. Taking advantage of the flickerfields since it doesnt really matter if they move.
I think the baron would be a better investment in this list, just because of the possibility to alpha strike with the free retrojets. Combined with a slightly larger unit of warriors to gain a little from his poisoned volley.
Over all I like his points but I feel a few tweeks would make it work better.
SandraD · 659 weeks ago
1. It's a casual/colloquial use among friends that perhaps shouldn't have spilled into the forum of an online blog.
I understand the point, I get that we are talking about plastic toys and tDA doesn't mean that his DE are going to sexually assult their opponents. The user is looking for a word that shocks, that describes a devastating act which has deep and long-lasting results. Of course rape fits the bill perfectly, even if we don't know someone who has experienced a sexual assult, we understand how it affects the victim.
But it's the exact casual use of the language of rape that I find is an issue. Of course it's not an issue restricted to the gaming or war gaming world, it's an issue that seems to be growing throughout many areas. The boxer David Haye brought the issue to a head a couple of years ago describing a match as a "one-sided gang bang rape". Comedians seem to be especially guilty of the casual use of the word, Frankie Boyle, Ricky Grevais, Russel Howard and Jimmy Carr jump to mind as well known comedians, but the smaller guys (and it is almost always guys) at the bottom of the circuit seem to wield rape jokes regularly.
Film too seems to pull it in, even Rom Com pro Richard Curtis managed to put in a scene where one friend encouraged another to have sex with his partner in a pitch black room and hope she wouldn't notice the swap.
I feel folks have no idea of the power of casually used language to legitimise abuse and prejudice, and, of course, serious crime. By allowing glib comments about rape, one suggests that the crime isn't so serious and I (+others) get offended by it's use because it's a powerful word, powerful because it's results are devastating.
2. You don't have to read this blog, if you're offended, leave.
Of course this is fair, I don't have to visit and read. But here is a blog that does, generally stray away from the norm and provides on the whole, sensible, well written and thoughtful content. Sure there are a few authors who on occasion, stray from this into your typical "lolz" kind of writing. And there are plenty of blogs I avoid for this reason.
Better then I add this blog to the list I don't read or mention that I believe it's strayed from its usual high standards? I read Kirbys warning about the source, I didn't expect a completed and perfect article. However I think it worthwhile pointing out that this reader doesn't appreciate the language of rape. Hey perhaps the creators will agree and think about posting such an article without a touch or editorial oversight in the future?
I hope that puts a little more flesh on my short earlier comment?
Oh and I've posted a couple of small follow up's below specific commentators.
chumbalaya 79p · 659 weeks ago
Alastores · 659 weeks ago
I have to say, though, that by now I am geniuinely disturbed at the number of people who think it's acceptable to say that people are being 'hypersensitive" if they object to a term that is designed to be a offensive.
Again. Grow up, people. We have a stigma against our hobby anyway. Defending early teenaged shoutng terminology is not going to help that.
Alastores · 659 weeks ago
What? Seriously? What? Do you actually think that 3++ is literally the only point of human interaction? There are issues with the term. This is a fact. One of them is that it's used by hyperactive teenagers. Another is that people find it offensive. These are linked terms.
"What I am trying to say". Actually, what I'm trying to say is exactly what I AM saying. I'll translate:-
"I started this thread":- When I started commenting in this thread". The fact that I was first is irrelevant. My original opinion was that it was hard to read.
"despite the forward":- All the forward said at the time was that it was an email.
So. At the time of my first comment or "Start", I found the email difficult to read, and knew that there were issues with the language use. Just like someone would know there were issues with the language if every second word was 'fuck'.
Or do you feel that that, too, would not be an issue until lots of people complained?
grizz · 659 weeks ago
Anonymous · 659 weeks ago
PopeLeoXIV · 659 weeks ago
This post was doomed from the outset. The first, and most obvious reason being it presents as an incoherent mess of ideas that could not conceivably form a worthwhile vehicle for discussion. Secondly, the fast and loose manner in which sensitive subject matter is bandied about has, understandably, led to a heated debate on the appropriateness of this use. Consider the matter in this way; if you were to deliver a tutorial, would you use materials of a similar nature, with liberal use of such terms? Assuming you could gain faculty approval, would you frame it in a manner for students to consider its matter from the outset, with appropriate questions to guide discussion, or would you leave that in their hands and hope for intelligent discussion to occur as a matter of course? If you were to deem this inappropriate for a tutorial class, what would make it appropriate for the purposes of your website? Certainly the qualities of the article have not improved, so it speaks to a difference in the audience's characteristics.
So what then are the characteristics of the wargaming community? On the available evidence, it is one where the use of sensitive terms in a manner that would be considered offensive in most contexts, can be bandied about using the defence of colloquialisms and 'gamer culture'. If this is indeed part of our culture, why do we want to maintain something vile; why do we want to defend ignorance and a callous lack of empathy? It is a commonly known, and sometimes lamented fact, that female gamers are substantially fewer than male gamers. As an exercise in empathy, consider if you were a woman, would you want to associate with such a culture?
That is why I think this article was doomed to begin with, and why there was no meaningful discussion to be gained from it. Your site is a fantastic resource of intelligent discussion on the hobby, and it does not need to sully itself by defending a moribund culture, or defending worthless filth. This is an appeal to you; as a prominent member of the 40k community, and an individual with a scholarly background, you are well positioned to take a leadership role in this area. It is one you can set by the example of what is provided for discussion, and the manner in which this discussion is guided. Some may decry this as a loss of culture or their freedom of expression; however, defending the colloquial ruse of terms like rape is a cultural sickness that gamers would do well to free themselves from.
Mikey87 · 658 weeks ago
Enlargingcloud · 658 weeks ago