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Saturday, March 13, 2010

Tau & Seeker Missiles & Suits.

Well Warseer is at it again. Apparently the idea of a HK alpha strike have trickled over to Warseer. There's a couple pages of it but meh. Mainly look at getupandgo's posts as he's advocating it (let's be fair here he's also not advocating crisis suits and piranhas so he's got the whole codex covered). Let's see why this is a bad idea.

4+ to hit then 2+ to hit. You've got an extra roll, that's not good. And that first roll, MUST be taken to be able to fire it. This seriously limits seeker missile usage as where do we get our MLs? On very expensive drones, Stealth Suits, FWs, Skyrays and Pathfinders. What are the only points viable or FoC slot viable units there? Pathfinders. You want to go and take Marker Drones, Stealth Suits/FWs or Skrays in 2k pts? Go for it. I'll thank you and so will everyone else. That's less Crisis/Broadsides/Hammerheads and overall killy for a couple S8 shots.

So we've got our pathfinders which can only shoot at one target. Well that's not really good is it. Now we can take up to 3 PF squads but then we have the cost of no Piranhas. If you think you can live with this, go for it. When the TH/SS termies smash into your lines because you can't delay them, well sorry lad. Hope those S8 AP3 shots come in handy.

The idea and concept is nice but it's simply a waste of points. On Imperial armies you can launch a S8 alpha strike on T1 to help pop transports, slow the enemy and suppress their fire. Can't do that with Tau w/o spending a lot of points. The genius of it on Imperial armies is you don't have to spend a lot of points and you don't have to buy units specifically for it. Tau do. Do not use it with Tau in a competitive environment because there are better Tau lists.

And more on Suits! I've explained this here and a lot at Warseer but scarvet asked:

I still can't understand the claim the Deathrain is ineffective...let alone the argument of pathfinder>piranha....

I'm not really sure about the PF>piranhas argument but I think its from getupandgo. If so, well it's silly. PF and Piranhas compete with each other and offer completely different things. I think a Tau list w/o Piranhas is weaker than a Tau list w/o PF but they both offer something unique to the list.

Now I'm just going to copy paste myself from warseer here but if anyone else would like to add something, please do.

The TL MP does what the whole army can do, it can damage armor. When you compare it directly to a MP/PR the MP/PR loses you out on the tiniest bit of anti-armor ability which you don't really need for much, much improved duality.

In simple terms. MP/PR gets more similar shots. More shots is always better because of the way statistics works. Sure yours hit 75% of the time and mine hit 50% of the time but my ability for super good (or super bad) rolls is better than yours. You are maxed at 6 shots. I'm maxed at 12 shots. Add in markerlights and I can wipe a squad. You will never ever ever ever ever do that (for anyone above 6 men). For the increase in points and the minor ability lost against tanks + the AP2? Done.

4 pinkments:

Polymphus said...

Seriously dude, the Tau Tactica thread on Warseer needs a sign that says 'abandon hope all ye who enter here'. Apart from trolling it occasionally (I convinced half of them that fireknives suck just to see what they'd fall for) I leave it the hell alone and I'm better off for it.

Let's look at a HK army shall we? It has to fill its FA with pathfinders (so it can't have piranhas) and will likely be filling up what I like to call 'valuable railgun slots' with skyrays. iirc the bloke mentioned giving the PF's 'fish to fire warriors, which means he's using at least 3 units of FWs.

So his only anti-tank is in XV8s and HKs. He's not using helios/sunforge suits so he's absolutely useless at busting heavy armour. A single land raider is all it takes to ruin his day. Also, he's put a significant amount of his army's infrastructure into one shot weapons. One. Shot. Weapons. He's filled all his FA with pathfinders for the sole purpose of launching seekers with them.

3 units of 8 pathfinders in a 'fish with a DP and 2 seekers, 3 skyrays (w additional seekers) and 3 units of 6 fire warriors (assuming he's using them as scorefish) comes to 1218pts. What's the standard sized game these days? Assuming he's playing 1500pts he could grab a cheap shas'el and a unit of XV8s. That's his whole army. He's got 30 seekers and 6 ML platforms. 25 on average will hit. That's just over 4 S8 AP3 hits per turn in a 6 turn game, assuming your army takes no casualties (which it won't, but I'm being generous).

You're gearing your entire army towards that? 4 S8 AP3 hits per shooting phase? I...ugh. Words fail me.

MagicJuggler said...

The only time to *consider* Seekers is...ironically on Piranhas. They are going to be moving forward to block stuff, and would be most set to take advantage of side or rear-shots, or to provide last-minute punch to deal with an emergency MC.

Even then, I run *4* seekers at most. Seekers!=Hunterkillers

Raptor1313 said...

Seekers can be a complimentary part (but they're bloody expensive) of the army if you want to invest in them.

Bottom line is that it's limited ammo, unreliable, and there's also the question of just what S8 actually KILLS. I think I did the math and you'd need bloody full Sky-ray to drop a Rhino reliably.

And that's giving up your hammerheads and broadsides. Let me know how that works when you see some AV13 or Land Raiders. Or, hell, even AV12. You'll need 3 pens to kill, you'll need 3 hits per pen, so you'll need 9 missile hits, so you'll need about 10-11 missiles or so.

Wow. That'll really stop AV12, won't it? I'd rather have 9 S7 shots a turn and rail guns, but that's me.

Kirby said...

Again this is why it works on Imperial armies. The point isn't to kill things. It's fire suppression. If I have an extra 6 units with a single HK on them, T1 I have 6 extra chances to do SOME damage. Even if it's a shake on a Pred, that Pred isn't shooting me. Tau seekers can't do that and has been pointed out by those above me, you have to designed your army around it to do something reliable with it because you're now counting on your seekers to do damage.

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