Kirb your enthusiasm!

WEBSITE HOSTED AT: www.3plusplus.net

"Pink isn't a color. It's a lifestyle." - Chumbalaya
"...generalship should be informing list building." - Sir Biscuit
"I buy models with my excess money" - Valkyrie whilst a waitress leans over him


Tuesday, April 20, 2010

GWvsJohn Talks Tactics: Space Marine Close Combat



So, TastyTaste is an idiot. But in the midst of his ramblings, one thing spoke to me. “Stelek’s constant reliance on firepower in his lists and his play (that is if he even plays games anymore) leaves you wondering does he even know about the Assault phase anymore?” While TT is trying to flame, and he uses anymore twice in one sentence, he does have a point. Stelek puts a huge focus on shooting, especially in his vanilla Space Marine lists. Now, don’t get me wrong, Stelek is a much better player and builder than I am, but I never feel comfortable going to battle without some “reliable” CC. With the addition of CC capable Nids, Angels and Wolves to the “sub-par”/CC oriented CSM and Orks, I’ve seen too many games become a race to kill all my opponents CC units before a lone Wolf Lord or Greater Daemon wrecks my line. This article will look at how we can incorporate some CC into an otherwise shooty SM list.

The obvious answer would be TH/SS Terminators in Land Raiders. The downside is that this combo costs 1000 points (bringing 1 “rock” is a terrible idea) and after we add in min troops, we only have 600 points to make a “shooty” list. That’s not gonna fly. We need cheaper options. Let’s run through the possibilities.

Master/Captain – I don’t think we need to go too deep into why these aren’t good options. T4 without EW makes them PF bait and they get expensive real fast. Still, they can ride in transports and are relatively immune to shooting.

Chaplain – He adds support for a CC unit (if we ever find one). Still, 2 wounds at 3+/4+ for 100 points doesn’t seem great. If we have a CC unit and a way to have him roll with them he might be worth his point. We’ll revisit him.

Librarian – Null zone is almost mandatory in an all-comers list, so we have 1 power to choose. With 4’s and 2w and no ++ save, I just don’t see the CC powers being better than the shooty ones. If you’re close enough to charge, Avenger is usually going to be better than s6 or i10. We’ll be bringing him for a Hood and support, but he’s not a CC threat.

Dreadnought – Now we’re getting somewhere. A regular Dread is cheap, packs a multi-melta, can ignore small arms and has 2 i4 PF attacks. Downsides are a crippling lack of speed and a vulnerability to AT fire, particularly short ranged melta-weapons. We can drop him to up speed, but he can’t charge on the drop and is melta bait. Overall a dread is a solid CC support unit and fits into a variety of lists (see Stelek’s original Best Of Marines style lists)

Ironclad – 30 points nets you +1 AV, +1 A, +1 damage in CC and +1 HK (for 10 more) but costs you 6/12” of melta range. They have the same downsides as a standard dread, only amplified by the increased cost (8+2d6 wrecks av13 nearly as easily as av12). I’ve had some success with a triple ‘Clad list. Turn 1 launch 6 kraks, turn 2 run and smoke, turn 3+ try to get in CC. The lack of speed really becomes apparent against very shooty lists like Tau and IG. The ‘Clad doesn’t become a real threat until turn 3, giving AT fire 2 turns to take out my shooting, then rip the Dreads turn 3. Still, I think they’re our best option so far.

Assault Marines – Another big debate unit on Warseer. I just don’t see foot marines who are scared of terrain being effective, even with a 12” move and CCW. If they could carry a pair of meltaguns, maybe, but currently they’re 200 points of ablative wounds for a lone PF. Not a great buy IMO. Adding those FC/FNP bubbles in the BA dex really makes a difference. I guess you could spend 235, hide 10 of them behind your Razorback line and have them jump out as a last-ditch speed bump. They really need some sort of bump in the SM dex. A special character to make them score might be enough.

Scouts – 5 with a fist in a Storm can be a decent surprise unit, and they score. 4 4+ save models make poor ablative wounds for a PF and the Storm is a poor use of a FA slot. Not the worst way to spend 160 (take the HF on the Storm to eliminate bs3) but will only catch noobs off guard.

This brings us full circle. What about TH/SS Terminators. I don’t want to spend 1000 to ride in style, but what about just 10 on foot? We all know that they’re one of the best CC units in the game, but on foot they’re soooo slow, and they don’t have any shooting to offset that speed (compared to a Dread/Ironclad) But we can speed them up. Let’s add a Termie Libby with Gate and Null. We were bringing a Librarian anyway (and in this way I can use my Terminator Librarian model, right Kirbs? J) so while the unit “costs” 525, it’s really more like 425. It gives your Librarian somewhere to hang out, which can be tough in a Rhino-based list. The unit seems versatile to me. Against fast/CC lists, it is a big scary roadblock type unit that you have to grind through to attack my juicy shooty units. Against a gunline-type list, Gate them across the board and extend your threat turn 1. With 2+/3++ the unit can weather a lot of the return fire and since it doesn’t shoot, it can run out of “please template me” formation. Just drop them into an army of 1500 points of shooting and voila, instant CC. You could even bring 2, or add 2 Ironclads to make a very CC army. This unit is also a decent spot for a Chaplain. 30 TH attacks with re-rolls to hit become a very scary AT unit, even if the tank is moving fast.

I think I’m going to write up a list with this unit and playtest it a bit. What does the Pink Army think? Can this unit work in a competitive environment?

-GWvsJohn

9 pinkments:

Grey Knight Luke said...

First off...
Stelek plays Daemons right? so he has to know of the assault phase.

Second, I like what you said. I agree that the Space Marines don't have a lot of awesome cc units. Obviously terminators are awesome. I would argue that vanguard vets can be good as well (you just have to be careful about how to equip them, they can get expensive really fast). Captain or chaplain with a command squad can be great too (especially on bikes).

The point was well taken though. Space marines don't have the same stopping power in cc than a lot of other armies and many vanilla marines need to figure out how they are going to deal with that and be effective.

Thanks for talkin!!

Raptor1313 said...

I'm pretty much with you.

TH/SS termies are pretty much as good as it gets for the 'vanilla' book.

BA can get away with assault marines because they can hand out FNP like candy, and can bring meltaguns in the unit. Vanilla...can't.

Past that, Dreadnoughts with a TL autocannon arne't quite rifleman dreads, but can at least threaten in CC. On the other hand, you still might have issues getting LOS, and you're one weapon-destroyed result away from losing half your value.

I'm more curious to see the context you're putting your CC support in, as I think that's a big part of it. Put up a list.

THIS I COMMAND YOU! ::wanders off to get a beer.::

Kirby said...

Haven't read it yet due to assignments but for future reference put the pictures on the left please :P. Otherwise did a couple formatting changes to make it pretty.

I giggled at the pink army bit at the end. The work pink seems to catch my eye.

Edit: I'm special I can. Okay fine I read it because I went to look at Tasty's post (a little pink died inside :(). I would like to say I don't think Stelek is all about shooting (look at his TWC list) and underline what SandWyrm said mostly in his replies (go read them if you wish).

Overall a good post. The merit is there behind gating/wrapping with 10 TH/SS but I think you'll find the problem is they end up being a 400pt psychological factor. I guess it boils down to BA make a better pure assault force (as do SW in certain situations) and SW make a better balanced force w/assault units outside of TH/SS x2.

I think most armies can survive without cc support as long as they can sacrifice units (this is where Tau cry when their crisis suits start to disappear) but adding in something like a Dread or GKT squad has never hurt if it still adds to the army whole (unlike say Warseer taking Scorpions as a counter-assault unit which most of the game does nothing).

Chumbalaya said...

The less said about BoK the better, so I'm done with that.

I find it hard to fit in good marine CC without shelling out tons of points for TH/SS Termies or Biker Command Squads. That's why I take flamers :P

I know 10 Termies casts a wide net, but I'm not really sold on them. I've used 10 normal Termies with cyclones as a shooty support/bubblewrap type dealy, but not TH/SS Terms.

Devinstater said...

Chumby,

You need to try it. I thought the same, because my CML Termies just didn't have enough staying power. It wasn't that they weren't worth their points, I just felt my list needed something that could just the other armies rock before they smashed all my bits.

I've been running TH/SS Terms with a Null/Gate libby and it's been amazingly effective. They invite poor target priority and often get shot instead of other more pressing items, like Land Speeders. Plus they do soak up a lot of fire.

Another reason I like them is they help push midfield, whereas otherwise I find SM get out manouvered too much or swarmed, and by the time you kill everything on your side of the board, you don't make it to the far objectives. This helps push the fight up to allow you to be on the offensive.

Venerable said...

Good read.
Thanks for sharing thoughts.
I think perhaps you have overlooked the biker command squad, although fully tooled up for CC and with hard hitting shootie duality, they can be pretty pricey, but about same as TH/SS & Libbie

Something like;
Captain- Iron Halo, Bike, Relic Blade, Digital Weapons, Artificer Armour, Meltabombs
195
Command Squad (Squad on Bikes)
Apothecary: Narthecium, Storm Shield, CCW, Meltagun
Biker 1- Lightning Claw, Storm Shield, Meltagun
Biker 2- Storm Shield, Lightning Claw
Biker 3- Storm Shield, Lightning Claw, Flamer
Biker 4 Meltagun, Storm Shield, Power Sword
375

Now, this is NOT as killy in CC but with all the anti-psyker stuff around now, reliably faster and more flexible, additionally has Melta and can pump out some reasonable shots and flame then hit a large squad hard...

Overall, not as killy as Termies, do have FNP and 3++ SS's and T5 (bar ID weapons) so pretty good...

Just an alternative.

Venerable

GWvsJohn said...

First Attempt:

Thundergate 2000

1 Space Marine Librarian @ 145 pts (...in Terminator Armour; Null Zone; The Gate of Infinity)
1 ...in Terminator Armour (Unit Type: Infantry; Psychic Hood; Force Weapon; Melta Bombs; Storm Shield; And They Shall Know No Fear; Combat Tactics; Independent Character; Psyker)

9 Terminator Assault Squad @ 400 pts (Unit Type: Infantry; Thunder Hammer & Storm Shield x9; And They Shall Know No Fear; Combat Squads; Combat Tactics)
1 Sergeant (Unit Type: Infantry; Thunder Hammer & Storm Shield x1; And They Shall Know No Fear; Combat Squads; Combat Tactics)

1 Dreadnought @ 125 pts (Unit Type: Vehicle (Walker); Searchlight; Smoke Launchers; Twin Linked Autocannon; Twin Linked Autocannon)

1 Dreadnought @ 125 pts (Unit Type: Vehicle (Walker); Searchlight; Smoke Launchers; Twin Linked Autocannon; Twin Linked Autocannon)

9 Tactical Squad @ 225 pts (Unit Type: Infantry; Krak Grenades; Power Armour; Bolt Pistol x9; Bolter x7; Flamer; Multi-Melta; And They Shall Know No Fear; Combat Squads; Combat Tactics; Rhino)
1 Sergeant (Unit Type: Infantry; Krak Grenades; Melta Bombs; Bolt Pistol; Combi-Meltagun; And They Shall Know No Fear; Combat Squads; Combat Tactics)
1 Rhino (Unit Type: Vehicle (Tank); Transport Capacity: 10 models; Access Points: 3; Fire Points: 1; Searchlight; Smoke Launchers; Dozer Blade; Storm Bolter; Repair)

9 Tactical Squad @ 225 pts (Unit Type: Infantry; Krak Grenades; Power Armour; Bolt Pistol x9; Bolter x7; Flamer; Multi-Melta; And They Shall Know No Fear; Combat Squads; Combat Tactics; Rhino)
1 Sergeant (Unit Type: Infantry; Krak Grenades; Melta Bombs; Bolt Pistol; Combi-Meltagun; And They Shall Know No Fear; Combat Squads; Combat Tactics)
1 Rhino (Unit Type: Vehicle (Tank); Transport Capacity: 10 models; Access Points: 3; Fire Points: 1; Searchlight; Smoke Launchers; Dozer Blade; Storm Bolter; Repair)

1 Predator @ 85 pts (Unit Type: Vehicle (Tank); Searchlight; Smoke Launchers; Autocannon; Heavy Bolter (each side))

1 Predator @ 85 pts (Unit Type: Vehicle (Tank); Searchlight; Smoke Launchers; Autocannon; Heavy Bolter (each side))

1 Predator @ 85 pts (Unit Type: Vehicle (Tank); Searchlight; Smoke Launchers; Autocannon; Heavy Bolter (each side))

2 Land Speeder Squadron @ 140 pts (Unit Type: Vehicle (Skimmer, Fast); Multi-Melta x2; Heavy Flamer x2; Deep Strike)

2 Land Speeder Squadron @ 180 pts (Unit Type: Vehicle (Skimmer, Fast); Heavy Bolter x2; Typhoon Missile Launcher x2; Deep Strike)

2 Land Speeder Squadron @ 180 pts (Unit Type: Vehicle (Skimmer, Fast); Heavy Bolter x2; Typhoon Missile Launcher x2; Deep Strike)


Total Roster Cost: 2000

Kirby said...

I like it though I might think dropping the 2x2 Typhoons to 1x2 and scrub some of the upgrades on the Tacs for another Tac squad.

But otherwise <3; let's see how it goes.

The_King_Elessar said...

I'll be honest, I skimmed this, because I don't think Marines have so much of an issue. Now, we all know that actual CC specialists stomp non-CC specialists, 9/10 times, but even Tac Marines are better than totally non-CC units (see Dire Avengers) and so Marines have a better baseline. Plus, if the Marines charge, they can stomp Orks no big deal.

While I recognise there is something of a requirement for proper Marine CC elements, Eldar need it a lot more, and I'm thinking how Yriel and Harlies are literally it, without a Jetlock Council[which isn't even that great, tbh, given Wolves and Hoods]. Stormies are just not good enough. And I don't like that.

Sorry I can't be more constructive. :(

Post a Comment

Follow us on Facebook!

Related Posts Plugin for WordPress, Blogger...