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Monday, April 19, 2010

Reply out: Anon & FW




Well someone gave me something to write about today, how nice of them. So let's see what Anon said.

I don't get peoples obsession with hating Firewarriors. You say having them as a core leads to a bad list, I have to disagree. I run with 60 FW and yes, they may be a little expensive, but they always, ALWAYS, earn their points back. People don't give static Tau enough credit. I think you should give them another shot, just to have a look at them. Give them some tank busting back up and you're in business.


 Um okay. So first off foot works in very rare situations. See this. Tau foot? Does. Not. Work. FWs without a Fish = dead. If you're running 60 you've either got 1 Kroot squad or more likely 0. This means your screening is pretty crap. No mobility means you're at a disadvantage to every other list out there and will get chewed out in cc without screens. You are offerring no target problems to your opponent as your opponent gets to ignore your FW and focus on your broadsides/hammerheads/crisis/piranhas/etc. as his mech or foot doesn't care about your FW. Why? Because the FW don't bother mech and competitive foot doesn't care about them either as they are in your face and tying you up in combat or pretty much laugh at small arms.

So when you're making an army list and you've taken so many points into FW you want the best anti-tank possible which is broadsides. These guys suck at anti-infantry. You take something like Hammerheads for better duality and your anti-tank isn't great. FW are really bad without ML support so you're not going to be able to pack in 3x2 (or 3x3) Piranhas if you want Pathfinders (even if you do your FW are even worse). This then leaves your army divided into two clear camps. Anti-tank and anti-infantry. This is bad because your army can then be picked apart by your opponent as they can focus on their strengths and exploit your weakness. This is the prime reason I don't like BA hybrid.

You can argue all you want for FW but they will never be good. They are overcosted, really need combined arms to work and die to a stiff breeze. Their gun is nice and that's all they have going for them. The tau army lives on S5, they don't need more on their troops. When FW are less points and can take special/heavy weapons through drones at a proper price or DF have firepoints, then you'll start to see them. Until then, at least make a FW based list around FW in Fish not on foot.

5 pinkments:

Anonymous said...

Thanks for making a post for your reply to me :P You do bring up good points and it gives me something to think about, but I guess I will just keep playing static until it stops working for me :p Could just be in my city, people prefer infantry combat to mech, even IG players play with inf swarms and not much tank-wise.

Thanks again for your reply :)

Raptor1313 said...

I think the matchups in the area are ALWAYS important; it's the context.

Honestly, though, against mech Fire Warriors DO struggle. They're just so-so, but if the other guy just has infantry and you can start adding your rifles to the fun...yeah. Things can get nasty if you have enough guns.

Kirby said...

That's the problem I have with the concept of "metagame." I know people have budgets and can't always buy 10+ tanks but I think over a period of years if you keep one army you should be able to fully optimise it, particularly if you have played 5th since day 1 (which is what 2-3 years old now?).

It just takes one person in Anon's group to bring a bunch of tanks to the table and start playing 5th edition. Either everyone will follow, tailor their lists to beat his or complaing about cheese when s/he beats them.

That said, when I discuss something it is always, alwaysalwaysalwaysalways in the mindframe of 5th edition. To be blunt I don't care if your neck of the woods plays only HQ and Troops, I play Warhammer 40,000 5th edition and their relevant books (I saw someone using the 3rd ed Chaos dex because he didn't like the newest one; honestly, tough) and that is the frame of reference I will be basing off of.

Yes in foot warfare, FW can be deadly. Now pick 5 random armies from this blog and all 5 will trump it. Pick 5 random armies from Warseer or Dakka, etc. where there are non-optimised lists, etc. and even then you're going to find a list that will laugh at FW on foot. I would encourage you to encourage your friends to move onto 5th edition but otherwise remember the frame of reference for this blog ^^.

(This wasn't directed at you Anon or Raptor, just an annoying argument with someone about foot Orks >.<. Again)

Lifelinks said...

I'm not Anon anymore, I was bothered to put a name :p

I think one of the issues I face is other than a few older guys, a lot of the people at my local games are still in school and/or rely on parents to buy them warhammer :p So I don't see a lot of tanks. I have however, taken your blog into consideration, going to order some things and try out this for a 1500ish army:

Just a basic list, no big details

Commander
2 body guards

2x2man Crisis teams

3x6FW
2 w/ Devilfish, 1 steals the pathfinders
1 12man FW team to keep with my broadsides

8 Pathfinders

2xHammerheads

1 2man Broadside team

and flesh the rest out with kroot and hounds.

Its a bit more meched and hopefully it will help the local players to up their armies a bit.

Kirby said...

Ya I remember when I was in school I got one box every 2 months or something unless I paid for it myself through chores/tournament winnings. This blog is to promote better play so, your list is a step in the right direction from foot FW :).

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