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"Pink isn't a color. It's a lifestyle." - Chumbalaya
"...generalship should be informing list building." - Sir Biscuit
"I buy models with my excess money" - Valkyrie whilst a waitress leans over him

Sunday, May 16, 2010

Eldar Analysis: Aspect Warriors, the good & bad

Well this thread was given to me a while ago from Warseer (they do provide me with a lot of content! & thanks Thud for the PM about it). Whilst I won’t go on a rage or rant onto how bad some of their logic is, I’m going to do a typical Kirby analysis of the units they are touting as good. Specifically today we are going to look at all the Aspects (because this post by Tokugawa100 seems to understand none of them; quick summary Hawks > Dragons for anti-tank? What next? Fuegan!?) and Seer Councils.

We’ll start with Councils. Here’s pretty much the only way to run a Council list these days (obviously there are variations, the important bit is double Fortune & Dragons). You need double Fortune because of all the anti-psy out there. You need bikes because -/4++ is crap. What, Null Zone? Psycannons (who will make more of an appearance soon)? Runic Staffs? No these things don’t bother me. Yes, yes they do. This means squads like this from Perfect...

8 x Warlocks (Embolden, Enhance, 4 x Destructor, 2 x Spears on Destructor & Enhance 'Locks)
Wave Serpent (SS and Shuricannons)”

...are simply bad. Any torrent unit has a better chance of killing you than before because you’re sitting on a 4+ and no longer a 3+. That’s just silly. Add in the fact you can’t assault out of your Serpent and you suffer the same problems Scorpions/Banshees do (which will be covered later). And you’re spending how many points on this unit? Again, Bikes are the only viable way to take Councils these days and they are significantly less capable than they were even a year ago thanks to the increase in “we don’t like your psychic powers.” A pure mech list is regularly better but when you do take a Council, GIVE THEM BIKES.

So onto the Aspects. Every. Single. One. Let’s start off with this for all you fluffy bunnies. Eldar were my first major army thanks to their Aspects (Biel-Tann) like Warp Spiders and Striking Scorpions. I pant for the day I can use them again but as they stand now, most aspects plain suck. Whilst specialisation is the name of the game for Eldar, some of their specialists are just terrible at what they do. Whilst you generally get duality from your Mech aspect of Eldar, if they are carrying specialists about those specialists need to be really bloody good. Like Fire Dragons. In fact, let’s start with them. P.S. GW give Warp Spiders a new model and awesome PL.


In Elites in terms of Aspect Warriors we have Striking Scorpions, Howling Banshees and Fire Dragons. Whilst there are also Harlequins and Wraithguard they will only be touched on in relation to FoC choices. It becomes pretty simple in this case really.

Let’s see what Tokugawa100 has to say first on Fire Dragons...

“Excellent at taking out those annoying tanks, but for gods sake keep them porotected or in a tank of their own. I have found in my experience that Fire Dragons get picked off the fastest by the enemy so you want them to last.

Get them close and unleash hell."

Well that’s pretty much correct, let’s look at them in detail. Each Dragon contains a meltagun, BS4 and melta-bombs for a measly 16pts. Buy me a baker’s dozen thanks. These guys are the ultimate in anti-tank but require a transport. Taking these guys without a transport is just...well odd. Because of their high threat value they will be targeted early and often and if their transport makes it to their target, they are unlikely to survive the next turn unless the enemy is in a significantly weakened state or has other threats to deal with. This means it’s best to make Dragon transports as minimally threatening as possible w/o compromising their effectiveness and your enemy can generally predict what your Dragons are going to do. Unfortunately for Eldar, Fire Dragons are their only real answer to heavy mech. Whilst they can get excellent weight of fire and ping to death w/S6, they lack cheap anti-tank guns outside of Fire Dragons and it’s this that makes Dragons so invaluable, particularly in the Eldar army book.

Howling Banshees are next. Whilst there is a “raging debate” on most internet forums over the effectiveness of both Banshees and Scorpions, I’m here to tell you they both suck and we’ll start with overall reasons why. Banshees and Scorpions are both assault units that require some sort of outside assistance to be considered “good.” Whether it’s Fortune or Doom, without it they just don’t stand up to anything remotely decent in combat. Even with these support powers, any dedicated assault unit or army will laugh at them, take their loses and move on. Besides needing support, both units need a Transport (please footslog them, please). This is also the problem for a foot council. No Eldar transports have assault ramps and only have a rear hatch. This means you have to plan your assaults a turn beforehand through positioning of your Transport or hop out a turn early. This is either predictable (but can be used for threatening purposes) or opens your assault troops to a vicious volley of death, neither of which are good for you. The predictability allows your opponent to block your exit, focus fire on the transport (which can be good for the Eldar) or simply move away, a combination of all of the above being most likely and because the units don’t have much staying power (unless Fortuned but no invul) and need support as it is to damage in combat, they certainly don’t like opening themselves to a round of shooting.

Now that’s out of the way, here’s what Tokugawa100 has to say on Banshees...

“Excellent against troops with low leadership and low toughness, you want to kill as many as possible because the counter attack is going to hurt.” basically shooting their primary targets works? Low ld and low T guys aren’t hard to get rid of, why are you taking a specialist assault unit for them? Onto the specifics. Banshees strike first which is nice but w/o re-rolls to hit or Doom for re-rolls to wound, they never do enough damage. Add in their defences are terrible and die in droves unless Fortuned and what are they really there for? They give you some combat ability against MEQs but you don’t really need it. Eldar armies have enough firepower to force 3+ saves to fail or in a pinch have Dragons running around.

Tokugawa100’s take on Scorpions...

“The beefier alternative to the Howling Banshees, these are best used against heavy armoured troops such as Space Marines and Necrons.

There infiltration also makes them exceedingly fun.”

Well fun is good, shame we are talking about competitiveness here. Infilrtating them when they don’t have fleet or a 12” assault move is a bad idea since they get left out to dry. No comment on either of these units in comparison to Dragons or how they need support from a Seer. We’re going to say he understands Dragons > Scoprions/Banshees! So, consider Scorpions like an Assault Squad but w/higher I and more A and less movement and less T. The lack of T is bad because they are more easily torrented down and they can’t pack enough specials to scare other decent combat units. Sure they low save models but can’t the Eldar do that anyway with shooting? Yes. Remember ASM are bad except in BA lists where they are Troops and can get FC/FNP. Furthermore, Scorpions and Banshees take up a slot for Fire Dragons. Remembering that without Fire Dragons Eldar have a really hard time against Mech, particularly higher AV and spam. Sacrificing this important anti-tank for mediocre assault units which suffer from 5th edition transport rules w/only one hatch? No.


We’ve only got one Aspect in Troops, Dire Avengers. So uh...they are great? Tokugawa100 thinks so...

“Ive found Dire Avengers to be an excellent compliment to a Guardian heavy army, they give a little more Oomph in the armies fire power.

All round good troop choice but not as the only troops choice, they are excellent with horde armies with low saves.”

What oomph? I’m going to assume you mean excellent against horde armies with low saves rather than with...irregardless, no. Horde armies chomp them up after they fire. And a Guardian heavy army...well ya they have more firepower than them I guess. Dire Avengers unfortunately suffer from 5th edition. As above, they don’t work well on Foot and since they score, jumping out of a Transport to shoot with them isn’t the best idea (leave that to a squad which can at least take special weapons). Most of their upgrades via Exarch are useless (sacrificing a turn of shooting is great when there are none left or when you’re about to die or in a last ditch attempt, etc. For 150+ pts...these problems are solved by staying in your tank) so it really becomes a MSU and an upgrade to make Serpents scoring. Yes, yes fluff bunnies cry out in pain at this but tough. It’s the way Eldar run atm. Their only other viable Troops are Storm Guardians in Serpents w/double flamer or fusion as last ditch attempts or Guardian Jetbikes supported by a Seer who don’t have a huge points cost to make Fortune not going off “the end of ze world.”

Fast Attack

I love all of these Aspects. Hawks for their old Web of Skulls (can you imagine Web of Skulls w/Doom!?!?!). Warp Spiders because awesome and Shining Spears because who doesn’t like jousting? Particularly in the 41st millennium. Each of these units though has a significant drawback and are simply not worth their points in their current iteration. There’s minimal competition in FA though (only Vypers) so if they were good...well they could be taken. Let that underline how inefficient or bad these units are. No competition provided by each other and they still aren’t even an option. Let’s look at what Tokugawa100 thinks first on Hawks, it’s stupefying...

“I must say, these guys are the kings of Anti Armour, I take these over Fire Dragons any day. The ability to pop up on the table with haywire grenades means doom for the enemy vehicles and their ability to get around quick is invaluable.”

You know glancing got nerfed right? And that meltaguns w/AP1 are better than a grenade that auto-pens on a 6. Right? Do I have to run the math? Ok good. Hawks are expensive jump infantry w/a 4+ save, a gun that is geared at taking out...nothing, a yo-yo ability that costs over 100pts for a S4 5” blast, and some mediocre anti-tank ability. Why on earth would you ever, ever take these guys? They were good in 4th as objective takers and anti-tank because glancing could do something. As they stand they get shot up by heavy bolters because they are allergic to hard cover.

To the Warp Spiders! Enter Tokugawa100’s comment...

“My favorite Aspect warrior, the Warp Spiders are fabulous, they are manouverable and their short range attacks are a nightmare for armour saves. Best used against low armoured troops.”

Again, Eldar have troubles with low armoured troops how? Warp Spiders would be much better if they had some sort of AP to make them decent against armour but Eldar live on S6 anyways from their tanks. Add in the shortrange and unreliability of their second jump and they are prime targets for assault. When hiding was a lot easier in previous editions they were somewhat more viable but currently they do nothing the rest of the Eldar army can’t do and are extremely vulnerable to assault. New mould too please GW!

And Shining I want them to work! Tokugawa100 has this to say...

“I find these work well in a Saim Hann themed army where everything is fast and mobile, try to keep them protected and safe.

They pack quite a punch and withdraw is invaluable.”

Eldar are a fast and mobile army. If you have to “protect” something, it’s generally not a good investment. Unfortunately Spears are the epitome of glass cannon. Only being effective on the charge, expensive, Marine stat-line w/o invul just makes them a one hit wonder if they can hit combat. The lack of good assault support units (outside of Harlequins) doesn’t even make these guys viable as a hammer unit with little paper weights holding everything down around you.

Heavy Support

Finally the Dark Reapers. In a cover happy edition of 40k, these guys lose out. Let’s see what Tokugawa100 says...

“These guys are excellent , expensive and few in number but excellent. Just sit back at the very edge of the table or in some cover and just open fire on whatever you can reach.

With their excellent range and devestating fire power you will usually have a couple of choices.”

Another 4th edition comment or wishful thinking. Remember these guys also compete with Falcons & Fire Prisms which should be taking up all 3 of your HS slots. These guys will indeed massacre anything in the open but @ S5, cry against Mech. How common is mech these days? Add in cover for when they do versus against foot lists and they are nowhere near their points cost just as Starcannons didn’t deserve the massive point increase and nerf they got for their latest codex.

In summary we have 2 aspects which are worth taking. Dire Avengers for their cheap scoring ability inside vehicles and Fire Dragons for their ability to provide anti-heavy mech for Eldar. I’ll state this again, Eldar are not an assault based army, even with a Council on bikes. Their one-hatch non-assault ramp transports are anti-thesis to a mobile assault army and without that mobility or firepower, Eldar can’t deal with mech. As it is, Eldar mech has slipped down the ladder in terms of ‘power’ because of everyone else catching up. Whilst Eldar are still a viable army, they suffer from a bit of uni-dimensionality based around their Fire Dragons.

It astounds me that threads like this still pop up all the time. I’m not sure if Elfzilla (or Wraithzilla) is still touted about as viable on Warseer, I recall at one time Avatar led Guardians were the “thing” but really, in a competitive environment the Eldar has a very small pool of items from which to choose and I agree with Thud here, if someone wants advice on Eldar and this is the type of stuff they get? Well, it makes me sad.

41 pinkments:

Surreptitious Muffin said...

I worry about Tokugawa. He seems very nice but uh...not very bright. Being mean to him is like kicking a puppy, but I've long ago stopped paying attention to what he says.

Kirby said...

Never noticed him before. I did this on request from Thud, so blame him :p. My sarcasim seeped through as the post went on *shrug*

The post is ultimately designed to show how limited Eldar currently are and for people to see how a bunch of specialists (aspects) are out specialised by other armies excepting Fire Dragons. Whilst you deal with what you have in your book (i.e. Piranahs, Harpies, etc.), there is also a line btween good in this book and bad in general. Most Eldar units cross that line to bad in general.

Surreptitious Muffin said...

He's got a lot of ideas in his head. Unfortunately, they're mostly terrible. Best example;

I write a little. Not professionally and not nearly good enough to call myself a 'writer', but enough that that offends my sensibilities in so many ways it's not funny. It's just...ugh. I don't have the heart to tell him, but it's absolutely terrible.

Chumbalaya said...

Ugh, that was painful. Hawks awesome against tanks...

Smurfy said...

Kirby, I'm going back to my Eldar if you need a Eldar author ;D

Smurfy said...

For point of reference though, how to fix the other things in the book -

Scorpions and Banshees - Should get a "assault drill" power or Fleet for the Scorpions with their Infiltrate. Moar attacks, Str 9 Fist, and maybe WS 5 will help them a lot.

Banshees - Need a Invul on the charge IMO, need Assault Drill, need str 7 executioner. (So Ms. CC lite?) and haywires to give them the option to take down tanks.

In fact - All Aspect Warriors should come with Plas & Haywire Grenades. About the equivilant of Frag & Krak, I would say.

Fragons - Give em a option to switch all meltas for all flamers. Save Exarch...Crack Shot should apply to all the squad not just the Exarch. Tank Hunters..I think is a joke, TBH. Re do that second one...maybe split fire?

Reapers - Again, split fire instead of Fast Shot, Crack shot apply to whole unit, 1 in every 2/3 regular Reapers should be able to switch to Eldar Missile Launchers. (So a max of 2 MLs in the unit.)

Warp Spiders - AP 6, some kind of "snare" effect? As in, the farther a vehicle has moved in it's previous phase, the gun gains Strength or a AP 1 value? More reliable 2nd jump mayyybe, unsure, give the Warp Spiders their flavor.

Shining Spears - Invul on charge, WS 5 NEEDED, bigger unit sizes.

Dire Avengers - To compete with undoubtedly updated Guardians they're fine. But -

Guardians - Led by a Warlock may always regroup, regardless of being under half strength. (6" rule still applies) and Defenders may take a Weapons Platform for every 10. (So you get 2 Weapon Platforms in larger squads, and more reason to take Guardians as a mainstay regarding the Morale boost.

Warlocks - Change Conceal to Stealth or make it better in some way without breaking adding Stealth to Turbo-Boosting, lol.

All Eldar Jetbikes - Come with Hit and Run, please? More special weapon choices would be nice too.

Swooping Hawks - Haywire Grenades aren't awesome but they're a option, so keep Intercept and their Haywire Grenades. But get rid of Skyleap - Add "Accupressure"

"Accupressure" - The number of models in the squad combine their shots to make the following profile - Str X AP 1 Assault 1 (X = Number in squad.)

More if ya like

Kirby said...

Ya Smurfy if you want...even though I just closed author spots I like you :P *cuddles*.

Send me an e-mail and I'll add you to roll and you can make a post about this and have it discussed more in there. Ideas have some merit (I.e. Warp Spider snare effect = unit moves in difficult/dangerous terrain next turn).

The_King_Elessar said...

Loved this article Kirbs.

In fact, I recommended it on Dakka.

Kirby said...

Oh my TKE. Enter the Dakka...ites? That doesn't sit right now does it =/. Smurfy, still waiting on your email!

Smurfy said...

You know I've been busy and lack a laptop, so it's fickle right now, jeez.

Kildash said...

Smurfy, good ideas for the improvement of some aspects, but you forgot something for shining spears...

PLEASE, ow for god's sake PLEASE give us frags, GW!!!

Lorizael said...

Hi Kirby, I was just wondering what you're aiming for when you talk about competetiveness? Is this purely for competing in tournaments or competetive in the average, friendly gaming environment of most clubs?

I'm aware that everyone seems to be painting a bleak picture for the Eldar currently; a picture I'm failing to see! Of course the Eldar are not as brilliant as they once were and they lack certain things, but they really are not as bad as everyone in net-land is making out.

I'm not a tournament player though (entered only one with foot-marines finished 5th), so maybe I'm missing something. But then I still play against some really nasty, optimised armies and I have little problems with my Eldar.

Kirby said...

What's good in 5th edition, no environment depending. I can take my lists anywhere and anytime (assuming no rule changes) and have a good chance of winning because they can deal with any threat. This is balance.

So really competitiveness as Kennedy says is actual tactical ability and in this essence we are discussing pure theory (i.e. this works and this doesn't in the perfect world of everyone playing 5th edition) which is easily applicable to real life and is what I draw upon.

I can make a whole post on this if you wish but I think that covers it.

Lorizael said...

Ok. Here's my normal list that I take everywhere. I keep it the same wherever I go and whoever I fight against. I would consider it balanced in that it has the ability to take on all armies with success. Because of the aspect choices and options you would consider this a bad army list yes?

Autarch - 92
Mandiblasters, power weapon, Avenger shuriken catapult

Farseer - 130
Spirit Stone, doom, fortune


Fire Dragons - 96
6 Fire Dragons

Howling Banshees - 118
Exarch: Executioner
5 Howling Banshees


Dire Avengers - 162
Exarch: power sword & shimmer shield, bladestorm
9 Dire Avengers

Wave Serpent - 125
Scatter lasers, spirit stone

Dire Avengers - 152
Exarch: two shuriken catapults, bladestorm
9 Dire Avengers

Wave Serpent - 125
Scatter lasers, spirit stone

Fast Attack

Warp Spiders - 149
Exarch: Twin death spinners
5 Warp Spiders

Heavy Support

Falcon - 175
Scatter laser, holo field, spirit stone

Falcon - 175
Scatter laser, holo field, spirit stone

Total - 1499

Lorizael said...

As an explanation; Autarch rides with one DA unit, Farseer with the other. Banshees and Dragons have a Falcon each.

Kirby said...

Here's your anti-tank:
4 S8
16 S6 (half TL'd)
14 S6 AP -
6 meltaguns (one unit)

@ 1500 I can field 10+ tanks easily which this list has no chance in hell handling and thus isn't balanced.

Lorizael said...

10 Tanks in an army is fairly rare though! Including enough anti-armour to handle that comfortably seems to me would imbalance the list as then it couldn't include enough of the other units needed to fight hordes or heavy infantry etc.
And actually, looking at it I think I could deal with those 10 tanks. In 1500 they're likely to be rhinos or chimera-chassis. In which case it's not as if they're hard to destroy/incapacitate.
I can assume that in a 6-turn game my dragons can take 2-3, the Falcons can each deal with 2-3. That leaves 1-4 for the spiders and serpents to take, which isn't beyond them at all. Hell my banshee Exarch has ripped apart a tank or 3 in her time!

To me a balanced army is able to take on other balanced armies, not armies which spam tanks/horde or whatever. A 10 tank army is often unfeasable. Not even sure it's possible for any army bar Guard to field that many tanks. A 10-tank army is unlikely to be balanced itself, so why should you expect to take it on with a balanced army?

Lorizael said...

10 Tanks in an army is fairly rare though! Including enough anti-armour to handle that comfortably seems to me would imbalance the list as then it couldn't include enough of the other units needed to fight hordes or heavy infantry etc.
And actually, looking at it I think I could deal with those 10 tanks. In 1500 they're likely to be rhinos or chimera-chassis. In which case it's not as if they're hard to destroy/incapacitate.
I can assume that in a 6-turn game my dragons can take 2-3, the Falcons can each deal with 2-3. That leaves 1-4 for the spiders and serpents to take, which isn't beyond them at all. Hell my banshee Exarch has ripped apart a tank or 3 in her time!

To me a balanced army is able to take on other balanced armies, not armies which spam tanks/horde or whatever. A 10 tank army is often unfeasable. Not even sure it's possible for any army bar Guard to field that many tanks. A 10-tank army is unlikely to be balanced itself, so why should you expect to take it on with a balanced army?

Kirby said...

A balanced army is an army which can take on the extremes of any army whether it be Armor, Mech, Hordes, Bikes, MC or whatever. Take a look at the Mech Eldar list under the My Armies Tab. It is easily going to handle Horde armies and like all Eldar is relying on S6 for anti-tank but is backed up by 15 Dragons and BLs giving the list as much anti-mech as possible whilst remaining efficient.

I would also twitch at any game where you got 4-6 tanks between your Falcons or Dragons. Your Falcons should be shake-locked by your opponent since they are have the most firepower in one place and once the Dragons hop out, you rarely see them again. Suicide melta they result in being. At 1500 you should have 30+ S6 from tanks and you've only got half of that (consider the Spiders to be S5 due to AP-).

And @1500, 10 tanks is not rare. 3rhino/pred/dread/speeder is 1455 pts so shave a speeder and you've got a good 1500 SM list + HQ. 10 tanks. 6x Vyper, 2dragon/DA/prism + falcon = 1515 and 13 tanks. Need I go on?

Lorizael said...

Land speeders, dreadnoughts and vypers aren't tanks though.
Armies that spam vehicles are usually very weak in other areas and very unbalanced. There will often be a lack of proper troop choices for objectives and such.
I do disagree whole heartedly on Dragons being a suicide unit. If supported correctly and used well they can become a serious thorn by hanging around in the enemy lines causing destruction.
3 squads of dragons just seems like overkill and quite boring to me. Where is the Eldar versatility and range of troops in spamming the same unit?

I'll concede on what balanced armies should be. A balanced army should be able to take on all-comers with a majority of success. Though I still think certain spammed/power-gamed armies will always prove too much for a balanced army.

Chumbalaya said...

That SM or Eldar army is not unbalanced or lacking at all. It's got flexibility in terms of weapons as well as mobility and redundancy.

Luke said...

An army that 'spams vehicles' won't lack proper troop choices for objectives. They might have less troops than other armies but they make up for that by their troops being harder to get too.

Kirby said...

So you'd rather a list with massive numbers of troops but no killing ability? Both of those lists are very capable of winning in objective missions handily. About the only good army which has those issues are Tau because their Troops are meant to die leaving them with only one scoring option but Tau aim to table you anyway. Anyway those lists have 30 marines in Rhinos and 15 Avengers in 2 Serpents + HoloFalcon which aren't easy nuts to crack.

Dreads/Speeders/etc have an AV. They use the vehicle damage chart. THis means they are hard to kill. Thanks.

"power-gamer" or "spam" lists are generally balanced lists but most people don't understand them. Lists like nob bikers & chaos dual lash which are bitched about like no tomorrow and are considered cheesey, are imbalanced lists which lose to balanced lists 9 times out of 10.

Lorizael said...

See I enjoy active discussion about army lists. I like to show people other points of view and am pleased when someone provides me with something different that I can take on board.
But when people are condescending; "Need I go on?"; "Thanks", it makes it harder for me to take people seriously.
Prove me wrong by all means, but don't treat me like an idiot. I'm an adult who has been doing this hobby for a long time.

Anyway, looking at that marine list has got me to break out the SM codex and has given me ideas for what I will be doing for my next army...

Still, I don't agree much with how you disregard many Eldar units. Some are definitely less optimal than others (Hawks... :s), but the majority still have a place in the army if used effectively in concert with other units; which is in fact the whole point of Eldar warfare.
It does interest me though how you approve of Storm Guardians, a unit which I wouldn't touch. Just not enough staying power!

Luke said...

Stormies hide in a tank till they get out to flame something, but then they normally die, that is why you have dire avengers to take objectives. Stormies are worth it because they over something useful you can't really get else where, mobile flamers. They also score, don't have to compete for spots on the FoC and aren't that high on your opponents target priority list.

Things like banshees aren't useful because they compete with spots for dragons and don't do anything that the rest of your army can't already do.

Luke said...

Eh I meant they offer something not over something. =x

The_King_Elessar said...

Lorizael - I will visit this topic in more detail, if I ever get the feedback from Kirbs I'm waiting for. :p (<3 Kirbs) - In his defence, I did send him 19 pages of thoughts on Eldar to review before I galvanise myself into returning to the document and doing the other sections.

Still, I would like to know - are you in the UK? Playing 1500 implies this.

Lorizael said...

@Luke; yeah I get what they can do. But they do seem too throw away for me. I like my units to survive! I do like the idea of 2 flamers + destructor for serious horde killing, but still, paper thin... Plus I just love Swordwind armies too much :)

@Elessar: Yes I'm in the UK.

Luke said...

In objective missions every single unit but your last troop choice is a throw away unit. It doesn't matter how many of your units die as long as you hold one more objective than your opponent. Might seem cold hearted if you get attached to your squads but some days you have to just make sacrifices. KP are a different story thou. lol

Thou if your stormies wipe out what you flamed and you position your serpent to block LoS and if the rest of your army is still a significant threat. Then there is less chance of your opponent trying to kill them.

Lorizael said...

That just sounds so wrong when it comes to the Eldar!! We're a dying race, we can't go throwing away lives like that! ;)
I see what you're saying, I do like to have insurance though and having several units that can last and still be around at the end of the game is always good. Especially in multiple objective games where you really need to hold one more than your opponent!

I agree that you can do plenty to keep a unit alive longer; hence why I disagree with Dragons being suicide units. Potters and gardeners just don't make good soldiers...

Luke said...

So you understand why stormies are useful when banshees not so much??
Comparing dire avengers to stormies is different thou since they both score. But are both squishy when they get out of their tank, stormies just have 3 flame templates and dire avengers can either have blade storm or just be a super cheap unit for nothing but making a vehicle scoring.

Dragons are much harder to keep alive because mech has an allergy to melta weapons. So dragons tend to be on the top of your opponents to-kill list. Your opponent will generally be alot less concerned with the potters and gardeners. lol

Kirby said...

Let's hear why you think aspects outside of Dragons & Avengers are worth taking then in relation to fighting a balanced list and looking specifically at the points raised in the post.

Dragons can survive multiple turns (see one of the battle reports on this blog) but you generally have to expend a lot of effort doing so. As Luke mentioned, they are high prioirty targets and you shouldn't bank on them surviving multiple turns. Taking one dragon squadron and expecting it to take on multiple tanks is asking for your opponent to nullify your primary anti-tank and be at a significant advantage.

The_King_Elessar said...

Thing is, at 1500 there are a lot of lists that simply don't have enough to deal with well played Fire Dragons. Problem for the Eldar is twofold.

1) Often these lists aren't well run themselves - so it becomes much less important what you use/how good you are if the list is good (Despite being opposite, both are true)

2) They don't have much the Dragons can actually hurt - or at least, are worth hurting. Example, how many times have you seen tri-raider at 1500?

Lorizael, I play in the UK too, so please realise this is no insult to you or your friends/opponents, but in my experience, most UK players simply don't care enough to actually Mech up and play 5e 'properly'. In large part, this is why the Nids, Wolves, BA and even IG have viable(ish) Foot/SemiFoot builds. At 1500, taking crap units is that much more punishing, yet players refuse to accept that List Writing is as much a skill as painting or sculpting is - being able to maximise what you can get into your army is neither simple nor dirty, as so many would have you believe.

This kind of attitude leads to them failing to properly learn either rules, or the opponent's army, and so their target priority suffers, and they get peeved when you tell them simple things they should have known, like Wrecks being Difficult AND Dangerous, or that Skimmers get a 3+ Dodge to Ram attempts.

These players eventually stagnate, peaking out at mediocre, and sliding back into 'poor' with relative ease, only saved by the next Edition temporarily, as the vast majority get reduced to 'accidentally cheating' level, unsure of new rules etc.

If your Fire Dragons survive plenty against these players, with the lack of knowledge or foresight to shoot every weapon at them on turn one, or who lack the acumen to even FIELD enough weapons to down a single Wave Serpent...then I'm afraid it is nothing to be proud of. :(

Don't get me wrong, I know only a handful of players who are at least as good as me - but, as a 'better' player, it is my job to try and improve the others to my level so we can all learn and get better - and for some reason there is a reluctance to do that in the psyche of a lot of them. These same people, who would happily use cheat codes in console games, have a moral issue with LEGITIMATELY 'gaming the system'. Makes me EMO.

Kirby said...

Ok some comments were lost here it seems, sorry Luke & Loz, no idea where they went >.<.

Luke said...

lol np xD Blogger just hates you =P

Kirby said...

Doesn't everything?

Luke said...

Pffft doubt it.

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