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"Pink isn't a color. It's a lifestyle." - Chumbalaya
"...generalship should be informing list building." - Sir Biscuit
"I buy models with my excess money" - Valkyrie whilst a waitress leans over him

Sunday, May 16, 2010

Email in: Nids for the impatient

Hi Kirbi,

I'm quite fan of your blog, not just because I think your incite into the game is pro, but also because you don't write like a typical pro. So you want to share knowledge, instead of showing the world how great you are. Highly appreciated by me. But that's a completely different topic. So let's get it started:

Let me first introduce myself a little bit: First things first I'm not natively speaking English & I'm quite a wh40k N00b, so please excuse when some parts of the following text will be bullshirt in terms of syntax & semantic.

The next question to answer is: On which level and against which races am i going to fight:

Well i'll mostly play against an IG Mech army and a mixed Eldar army. Both of them are N00bs like myself, but i'd love to bring us to the next level. And if the following list will be at least a bit competitive it would be awesome.

So and the final question to answer before i'll actually show you what i came up with is: Why build an army like this?

First of all i like wings. Therefore i like gargoyles. Than i like warriors, simple cause they look cool. The same counts for Trygons. They are just awesome.

And finally i'm not very patient. So having to crawl across the table leeds (they got promoted =)) me to silly decisions just to speed up the game.

So what i'd like to come up with is a solid (maybe a bit competitive) tyranid reserves list. I'll explain for each selection why i chose it and what i want it to do.

2x Tyrant \w Wings (did i already mention that i love wings?)
Psychic Powers: Leech Essence, Paroxysm
Weapons: Boneswords & Lashwisp + TL Brainleech Worms
Abilities: Hive Commander, Old Adversary

That adds up to 295 per Flyrant ... I know, quite expensive, but what choice i've got?

Wings & Hive Commander are mandatory in a reserve list.
I think that in a reserve list everybody should be able to shoot, so i can't take double scything talons which would be great against vehicles.

The decision between Brainleech and Venom fell to Brainleech since they are better against infantry and i can actually hit the back of a tanks and not just always the side (as with blast weapons). Furthermore i think more shots make low BS more reliable.

Old Adversary... Hmmm great when the tyrant tries to kill infantry/MC/Walker. Awesome when some Gargoyles are around. Doesn't help the Trygons at all. Doesn't help the Zoas and helps the Warriors very little. So maybe i should skip it and give the warriors Adrenal Glands instead.

2x 3 Zoantropes \w Mycetic Spore

That makes 220 per unit.
I'd prefer Hive Guards to be fair, but since i can't drop them, they can't be used in a reserve list imo.

I'd love to take 3 of them in a unit, because i really want them to wrack the tank they shoot at in the first round. They probably won't live much longer than that, so their first round really needs to count.

Unfortunately i currently don't have to points left to include a deathleaper. But for the Zoas to work fine i could possibly need one... As i said before i'm a N00b, so i need your experience to make a good decision there...

2x 5 Warrios \w Deathspitters & Barbed Stranger in a Mycetic Spore

That makes again 220 points per unit.

I chose warriors because a) i like them b) The opponent has to start thinking whether he uses his S8 Weapons on the Warrios or something more important. I expect him to NOT use it on the warriors which makes them kind of eternal warriors again.

I took the Deathspitters because Pod units need shooting and deathspitters are lot more better for... how's it called... suppressive fire, than devourers are. I'd love them to have Adrenal Glands, but i don't know if it's worth the points. I left it for now.

One obvious problem i have with this list is: I'm quite thin on troops, which makes objective missions a pain in the arse.

2x 20 Gargoyles \w Adrenal Glands & Toxin Sacs.

That's 160ppu. Quite cheap compared to the rest.
well, as i said i like wings, and gargoyles have cool wings. Than i though they work quite well with Old Adversary.

I also thought i could use them as assault shields for the MCs. Not that i want to make sure that the MCs attack first, but i want to make sure that high number units don't assault MCs, since +1attack/unit could really hurt.

Ok, since i plan to use them as shield i shouldn't equip them with AG and TS i suppose, but AG & TS makes them a pain for MEQ and high toughness MCs like Dreadnaughts (is called like this? The T8 Eldar thingy that only costs 90 & WTF).

Furthermore it increases the model count, but i have to admit i'm very uncertain about these guys... But i love wings!

2x Trygon Prime \w Adrenal Glands

Thats 250ppu ... damn!
Why choose a prime if Synapse is the least problem i have in this list so far... First of all: The more independent he is the better. But the real reason is that i think the Containment Spines are worth the 40points.

First of all they are a lot better against infantry & they increase the chance to stun a vehicle the turn he arrives and assault it the turn after that.

About the 20p for both Adrenal Glands: It's cheap imo and makes him better against I4 and Vehicles.

So that's now 1970 Points which i can spend into Gargoyles or Venom Cannons on the Flyrants or even quip the spores with some additional shooting, haven't decided yet. But since i don't expect you to tell me that this list is perfect as it is, i don't feel i have to push it to 2000 right now.

Things that scare me a little bit are:

- IG Officers of the Fleet (+1 Reserve, Not Stacking, puh)
- IG Sanctioned Psykers: Should the Zoas survive the first round they won't shoot much any more.
- Eldar: I was told they have quite nasty anty psy abilities. I don't have their codex, so i can't tell for sure, but anty psy is bad for zoas, that for sure. Hopefully their antypsy also just works when the zoas survive the first round.
- Numerous things i'm just not aware of...

Sorry, i'm not good at keeping it short, hopefully i didn't steal too much of your time.

So what do you think?

Best Regards,
Glad you like it Myke! Glad I also come across as...humble (ha! Stelek =D). Your analysis is generally spot on but let's look at what you've got quickly:

2x Flyrants w/OA, HC, TL Dev, Wings
2x3 Zoans w/Spore
2x5 Warriors w/Deathspitters, Barbed Strangler, Spore
2x20 Gargs w/Adren, Toxin
2xTrygon Primes

First problem if those Tyrants/Gargs deep strike, huge huge foot prints so that's not very viable, particularly without a DS special rule that spores/Trygons have. So those Tyrants/Gargs are going to be on the table to begin with or coming in via your table edge...not really a fan of that. The Tyrants can however DS as they are a lot smaller, so potential there. Keeping with the winged theme it might therefore be better to take Harpies or Shrikes over Gargoyles (or if you don't want to keep the winged them but keep a reserve list you can use GWvsJohn's Spore list or start using things like Raveners, etc. Up to you). We'll stick with wings for now.

I'm also not a fan of Deathspitters on the Warriors, whilst decently cheap they don't really add all that much w/o a Prime...and a Venom Cannon would be better than the Barbed Strangler. We'll leave them for now but Rending Claws will be added for some better anti-vehicle in combat. The Trygons don't need Prime, whilst the Prime upgrade doubles their minimal effectiveness against vehicles, you don't need it and you've got 4 synapse units already. So we get to save some points there. I also think a Deathleaper is important since you have Zoans over Hive Guard (as you said, important for a reserves list) so some of our saved points are going there. Let's see what we have to play with now...

30 to begin with, -140 + 320 + 80 -5 for 285 pts to play with. Not enough for 2 Harpies who wouldn't really fit in this list anyway. We've got a lot of in your face, multiple wound and/or high T targets so we could continue with this vein with Shrikes but with a 5+ save...they aren't that great. Looks like we are stuck with Gargoyles or Sky-Slashers (no thanks). 8pts w/adrenal & toxin isn't too bad but we don't want big footprints. We're also light on Troops for this points level, target priority against your Warriors becomes less when they are your only scoring Troops. Tervigons can't come in spores but they can outflank w/Hive Commander. We'd have just enough points to take a Tervigon & Termagants as Troops with some leftover. That's one option. We could add another Warrior spore (225 w/RClaws & Devs) and upgrade all the Warriors for Deathspitters or take 2 Broods of Hormas in Spores (10 each). Or we could take 3 squads of Gargoyles at 10 (and then upgrade Deathspitters on Warriors). This final option though leaves you somewhat light on Troops.

So a lot of options with what to do with the rest of our points. I think adding another Warrior squad is the best bet. If you also dropped a Warrior from each squad you could get 2 squads of 10 Gargs w/Adren & Toxin but no Deathspitters on Warriors. With this type of army though you are relying on combat for anti-tank, particularly the Trygons. The Deathleaper generally helps with your Zoan's shooting but outside of that the S5 isn't going to help much. You'll have decent suppression with the Warriors/Tyrants/Trygons anyways but you're not going to make them much more than okay for anti-tank outside of combat. The Warrior & Gargoyle combo might be the best then.

This leaves us with:

2x Tyrants w/Wings, OA, HC, TL Dev
2x 3x Zoans w/Spore
3x 4x Warriors w/VC, Rending Claws, Spore
2x 10x Gargoyles w/Adren & Toxin
2x Trygons

So everything is reserved and can DS. As said before your anti-tank is mainly the Zoans and combat so a can be problematic. Not sure about the Gargs but tried to include them for your wing love as (outside of the warriors) are the only real anti-infantry firepower bait but at the same time they let you swamp things you normally wouldn't. I think in the end your original list was being split up with the Gargs having a huge footprint and extraneous upgrades.

Does this still fit your theme or any of the other ideas I posted? Anyone else want to weigh in as these lists certainly aren't my speciality ^^ (looking at you Mr. Spore winner GWvsJohn and Mr. Review AbusePuppy!).

6 pinkments:

Chumbalaya said...

I like it, though Raveners might suit you better than Gargoyles. Warriors trading Synapse for beast movement is pretty hand.

Myke. said...

Hi Kirbi, thanks for a the quick reply. I like you're input quite a lot! And i would take you're suggestions as they are, if i hadn't discovered right now, that my math was screwed. The 1970 where without the gargoyles... Stupid, Stupid, Stupid...

So if there are no gargoyles, than i don't need Old Adversary anymore. And when i don't take the prime upgrade, i have enough points to include the needed Deathleaper. Unfortunatelly there aren't enough points left to include a third warrior squad, except maybe when i reduce the zoas to 2 man per spore... which makes them unreliable... hmmm... maybe i should just trade one zoa unit against another warrior unit which than definitelly needs Rending Claws as you suggested anyway. But then again, maybe not.

Problem is that this list then has quite a low model count.

Should i leave one trygon at home? But the trygons take the red cross away from the Hive Tyrant a bit. I don't know...

Since the IG reserve -1 thing doesn't stack, Hive Commander doesn't as well i think... So one hive commander and one Deathleaper could be enough to leave one Tyrant at home... And ~300 can be spent in Warrios/Revenors or Gargoyles...

I think it's too late for my brain to work correctly today... I'll come back to this tomorrow night.

But Thanks again!!

Kirby said...

Oh that's no good. I think then the dual Winged Tyrant isn't going to work. You can try for a singular one but anytime you do come up against a negative reserves modifier, you're in trouble (until GW FAQs Hive Commander, they stack). Deathleaper can add the +1 to subsequent turns but it can leave you vulnerable early on. (So if you drop a Tyrant you have enough points for more Warriors/Raveners/Gargs).

Otherwise I might advise sticking with GWvsJohn's list I linked you to. Whilst lacking wings, it's a good reserve list or maybe look at a wave list (i.e. Winged units/Raveners/Hormas)?

As it stands double winged Tyrant might only be viable at 2.5k I'm afraid. The one time I don't check math!

Myke. said...

So after some rethinking and recomputing (the math) and with a little help with the spore-list link i came up with the following for exactly 2000 Points:

2x Tyrants \w Wings, Hive Commander, TL Blainleech Worms
2x 3 Zoanthropes \w Mycetic Spore
1x Deathleaper
2x Trygon
2x 3 Warrior \w Deathspitter & Venomcannon
1x 3 Warrior \w Deathspitter & Venomcannon & Rending Claws

2x270 (540) for the HQs,
2x220 (440) for the Zoas,
2x200 (400) for the Trygons,
1x140 (140) for the Deathleaper,
2x155 (310) for the normal Warriors &
1x170 (170) for the rending warriors which adds up to

So since the gargoyles don't fit well into the army i have to skip them from the reserve list. Which doesn't mean i give up on them. But i guess i have to create a separate list with them.

GWvsJohn's list is certainly better than this one, but i just can't stand Tervigons... I refuse to accept that they have to be part of every successful list.

Sorry again for the wrong math in the initial post!!!

Kirby said...

Not a fan of the warriors here, very light. You could use GWvsJohn's list and replace the Tervigon w/some Warriors and spore in some Hormaguants. Problem is Warriors can't obviously create their own army if they come in on the wrong side.

If only Gargs were made Troops when HT's took wings...

Myke. said...

[quote="Kirby"]If only Gargs were made Troops when HT's took wings...[/quote]
Never thought of that, but yeah, that would be awesome!!!

About the Warriors i forgot to say that they come in spores. So i basically took the list of Marclivis, removed the Regen from the MCs (90pts). Exchanged the Venom Cannons with the TL BrainLeech (20pts) on the Tyrants. Reduced the 3x2 Zoas to 2x3 (40pts) Points and added the Deathleaper and Rending on one Warrior Squad. So since Marclivis' list had 1995 i have now 2000.

If the Deathleaper turns out to be ineffective i can exchange him with 3 Warriors. One for each brood. But i think this guy can be fun.

I think when it's not about objectives i'd rather go with 2 bigger Warrior squads than with 3 small ones. 3 Warriors are just too vulnerable to 'No Regret' imo.

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