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Wednesday, May 5, 2010

Warseer Battle Report: Mech SM v Hybrid Eldar w/Fuegan 1850



Well my camera broke so not happy. The fact that I have been mauled by the missus’ cat all day as well…well let’s just say I’m happy that all my assignments are over! So today I played a couple of games of 40k against my friend who is new and wanting to get into the game. He played a modified mech Marine army of mine and I played Ail-Shan’s Eldar list. These games are designed to show the inherent flaws it has within the Eldar list, specifically it’s lack of anti-tank and the lack of impact Fuegan will have. See here for discussion. We got through 2 games and then I pulled out my normal Eldar list to see the difference.


Since my camera isn’t working (the pictures are stored so if I get it up and running anytime soon I’ll post the pictures), I recreated it using vassal as best I could (this also avoids displaying my proxying of some things!).

SM list:

MotF w/Beamer
Libby w/Null & Avenger
5x Scouts w/Cloaks, Snipers, HB
3x flamer/MM/Rhino tacs
3x Rifle Dreads
3x dakka Preds
2x2 MM/HF Speeders
MotF/libby go with scouts

Eldar List:

Eldrad: 210
5x Warlocks: 165
-3 destructor, 2 embolden
Fuegan: 205
5x fire dragons: 80
10x avengers: 120
Serpent: 130
-spirit stones, TL EML
10x guardians: 95
-scatter laser
-Warlock: 30
-embolden
10x guardians: 95
-scatter laser
-Warlock: 30
-embolden
7 x swooping hawks: 19
-exarch, sun-rifle, sky leap, intercept
3x falcons: 495
-holo-fields, turret shuriken cannons, spirit stones

So looking at the army lists, SM has an inherent advantage. It has good synergy, much better duality and duplicity and significant anti-tank and anti-infantry. The Eldar list is a hybrid with the very potent Eldrad leading with a mini-foot council and trip-falcons. Lack of saturation though should leave those falcons perma-shaken and anti-tank is light. The SM list will need to take advantage of it’s armoured fist and knock out as much AT as possible whilst the Eldar list somehow needs to overcome the firepower of the SM list and get Fuegan/Eldrad into combat.

So deployment. Remember my new friend is playing the SM and I’m playing the Eldar. I helped my friend to a minimal extent in relation to rules, training, etc. but otherwise left him to his devices. (so yes I was trying to shift the balance in favor of the Eldar, any help they can get is good).

Eldar won the roll off and elected to go first (mission: seize with 3 obs and DoW). Normally I’d go 2nd but the Eldar needs to inflict as much damage ASAP. Add in night-fight and it’s unlikely the Marines can do anything on T1 and I should be in range to melta by T2. The board was setup with mostly ruins & rubble with a forest and hill on one side (I’ve labelled the buildings even though they don’t accurately represent what was there, it’s pretty decent). I picked bottom as all terrain up top was open at the back and if the Serpent/Falcon survive I can swing around the back. Down bottom this also allows me to deploy my Guardians safely in a ruins where I had deployed an objective before and most of the game would be fought on that side due to objective placement. I was also able to put another Guardian squad in the other ruins down south to push back his scouts if he decided to deploy them. Put the hawks in reserve to “threaten” the Scouts but they are more likely going to die a terrible AP4 death.

Marines deployed the scouts but thanks to my deployment of guardians, will need to move at some point onto objective. He improved the cover he used to 3+ and added the MotF so he could start shooting from T1 (I think Libby would have been better here in case Eldrad tried anything but it was a good choice in the end). Everything else of his was coming on from the board edge T1. He didn’t roll to seize. Divination then moved his scouts into the open (awww).

Turn 1:
My first turn saw me zoom the 4 tanks on. The Serpent is leading because the Avengers aren’t necessary for this battle. It’s going to come down to me limiting the Marine’s movement which means all my anti-tank needs to survive. 3+ cover on the FD Falcon ftw. Guardians shot at scouts with only one seeing and wounded the MotF (woops).

Marine moved all his Dreads into the ruins where I assume he wants his scouts to go with all the guns poking out of holes yet still being obscured. He places his Speeder squad 1 where he thinks I might like to drop the Dragons or Fuegan next turn and otherwise castles up his rhinos/preds. The libby ran behind some Rhinos. Scouts stayed put. Eldrad’s ride was spotlighted and the fun began. MotF used his beamer on said ride and got just into the S10 range (woops on my part). Scattered 3” left and bang on target. Pens and cover failed. 3 and 5 rolled so a 3 is taken and Eldrad’s ride is wrecked (3+1 = 4 and flat out). AP1 sure screws with HF but lucky shot. Eldrad and co are not pinned. Couple of failed Night Fight rolls later and the speeders see the Serpent and plink 2 MM shots into it but cover saves the day. Rifle dread spots Fuegans falcon and opens up with no damage. 2nd Rifle dread gets through with a glance and pen…both covers failed and net result =immob so another wreck. Final rifle dread shot at the serpent with no damage. None of the Preds fired thanks to poor NF (silly spotlights). Onto Eldar T2.


Turn 2:
So my friend is really liking 40k atm! I think he should of moved his scouts but his MotF shot paid off. Eldrad double casted Fortune on himself (one got hooded) and guide on the remaining Falcon (barely, boxcars on hood rolls!). Hawks did not come in. Speeders were well placed so I couldn’t get access to the Dreads w/Dragons (wishing I had 3 squads right now). Serpent covered Dragon Falcon and they both took aim at the speeders. Eldred + Fuegan moved forward and fleeted (1” and 2”…ew). Between the Serpent and falcon no damage was done to Speeders (if the Falcon was setup with a SL/SC/PL I’d have 9 shots guided which would have a much better chance to do something. I also have to move the Falcon forward so my Dragons can get into pewpew mode which means I’m losing shooting. When you move Serpents 12” you only lose the chin-cannon shooting). The Guardians though rolled well and took down a Speeder (shaking the other) from squad 2 despite cover. Fuegan ran into combat and did….nothing because it’s hard to hit things on 6s.

Marine movement was minimal. A rhino and pred moved up into cover whilst the speeders levelled guns at the Falcon (the other one sped off to threaten some guardians). The Speeders took off the Pulse Laser from the Falcon but the 2 stationary tacs immobilised it. 2 Preds shot up Fuegan but he made his FNP saves. Rifle Dread then shot Serpent and it exploded killing 3 avengers and an embolden lock (3+ saves from bikes help a lot particularly with null zone around). Pred killed another Lock and rifle dreads downed a wound from Eldrad. Storm bolters took another off Eldrad and scouts took down the rest of the Locks (again 3+ saves would be great).


Turn 3:
Eldar army is looking shambles atm though Marine should of moved his Pred away from Fuegan, oh well. 1 tank out of 12 remaining. Fortune gets off on Eldrad but no other powers succeed and hopefully Null won’t go off next turn. Hawks fail to come in (good 200pt investment). Eldrad joins Avengers and they move out of cover to try and ping the Libby to death. Dragons move to take on Speeders. There are simply too many targets atm as I’d much rather those Dragons take out some Preds but I cannot rely on the scatters from the Guardians to down the Speeders. Fuegan moves 4” into terrain. Dragons drop one of the Speeders and take a HF off the other + shake it. Guardians fail to damage other speeder. Uh-oh. Fuegan fleets 2” (he wants to move fast) . Avengers cause 6 wounds on Libby but he saves them all and the Falcon fails to penetrate the Rhino. Sucky turn but lack of duplicity does this. Fuegan explodes the Pred and it’s SM turn.

Dreads move away from Fuegan who gets blocked by shaken Speeder. Rhinos stay put to drop template fun on Avengers and the other Speeder moves around to do the same to Guardians. Preds and Scouts will shoot down Dragons or Fuegan if they die early whilst Dreads will do what they are required to. 7 Guardians fall to the Speeder (they will break later). Null Zone is passed and the Tacs take down the Avengers and Eldrad. Null zone > eldard. Scouts drop the Dragons (2x 2+ blast = awesome). Pred/Dreads take a wound off Fuegan.


Turn 4:

4 units left for Eldar and one is still in reserve (it comes in on a 2 phew!). Grenades do nothing on landing and the hawks scatter onto the slope of the hill. Fuegan moves slowly through terrain but has a good fleet roll. Hawks do diddly to the Scouts and the top Speeder w/o HF gets shaken. Fuegan takes down a Dread in combat.

Both speeders head towards Guardians and Scouts towards middle objective. Everything else aimed at Fuegan (bar one Pred who shot the Hawks) and one tac squad unloaded (generally not wise..). When the smoke cleared though it only took the Tacs/Dreads and an MM to drop Fuegan. Sure wish he had an invul though he did a credible job this game. Lack of support in the end made him an unhappy camper (here 3x dragon squads in non-”anti-tank” transports would have been useful). Falcon got stunned, Scouts ran 4” and preds dropped 5 of the Hawks who passed their Ld.


Turn 5/6:

Hawks jump back into the air to try and late turn contest but otherwise Eldar have nothing to do. They attempt to surround their objective without clumping to force a tank shock and fail to damage the speeder. Marines mobilise to take down guardians and hold objectives. Falcon loses another weapon and is stunned again. Scouts & Speeders drop the Lock + 7 Guardians (who went to ground) and the Dakka Preds took the other 3 out. Rifle Dreads dropped the last weapon from the Falcon and game went on. Hawks dropped in and got shot up the next turn as the Falcon was knocked down. Final picture is shown but you should be able to get the picture.


So what happened to give the SM a wipeout? Lack of synergy on the Eldar part for one. The SM army had the weapons for the job every time. Dakka Preds and Scouts were shooting pretty much from the get go at infantry (which is what they want to shoot at) whilst the Dreads/Speeders/Tacs were sending S7+ fire into the tanks. Whilst the SM got lucky on T1 w/dropping 2 falcons, that’s 50% of the Eldar’s mechanised forces. This put Eldred & co on foot who then died thanks to no 3+ saves and null zone and Fuegan, whilst effective, was lead on a merry chase trying to stop the incoming damage to the Eldar army rather than munching on Troops. He did take down a pred and a Dread and due to the lack of AP2 weapons, took quite a bit of firepower from the SM army before he dropped but the SM army could deal with him as they wanted. Eat a dread or a pred, they’ve got more. If there had been 3x5 Dragons in serpents running around backed up by good ranged support…different story. Falcons are gunboats first and foremost, not trasports. The hawks as well, not getting them. They suck as a yo-yo, they suck as anti-tank, they suck as anti-infantry and they suck at surviving. Bring back Web of Skulls pls <3.

So the gameplay. SM were rewarded from being aggressive. Putting his tacs into harms way and giving Fuegan the firebase allowed him to dominate the field so well done. Against a more balanced opponent (I.e. TH/SS termies) this could of proved fatal but because he was able to deal with the army piece-meal, he won the game easily.

On my side I had little to work with and although I made a mental mistake in measuring distance (cursed MotF beamer), there wasn’t much more I could do. I didn’t have the tools for the job to pop that many tanks unless I got really lucky (and I did sometimes but this was often mitigated by cover). Scatter Lasers aren’t reliable on 2 platforms and 3 S8 pulse lasers + an EML? Eh…ya no, particularly when those Pulse Lasers are on platforms that need to move.

GAME 2!!!!!:

Let’s see what game 2 brings us. SM player got to choose to who goes first for fairness’ sake and we used the same board. This time we rolled Annihl and Pitched battle. Marines choose the bottom and went first. Marine used the forest, ruins and Rhinos to provide cover for his main firepower. I think error on his part here. He should of deployed over on the right using the dangerous rubble for his scouts (infiltrate) and the ruins for his Dreads with the rhinos & preds between). This would of denied the Eldar the use of the hill and limited their cover. Eldar didn’t roll to seize as they had cover and wanted SM to come out into midfield. Divination moved the Dreads out of cover.

Turn 1:
The marines were having none of it barely moved. First Dread immobed the Serpent and then cover saves galore saved the Dragon serpent. Scouts dropped 4 middle guardians who passed on their re-roll.

Eldrad cast fortune on his Serpent and the FD + guide on the Guardians, passing all. Falcons and centre Guardians moved up and Guardians + Serpent opened fire and the Serpent exploded a Dread (:O!). Guardians were otherwise ineffective and it moved back to the SM.


Turn 2:

Enter melta weapons. Eldard’s falcon is dropped and the ensuing torrent of fire washed away the Locks + Eld (again). Cover saves stopped most of the damage on Falcons but Fuegan’s was shaken and 3 more Guardians died, again passing on the re-roll.

Hawks came in and did nothing with nades, scattering off to the right of the Scouts. Dragons hopped out and decided to be daring with Fuegan as well, so he jumped out. Falcons moved to be able to fire and gain cover (note: I forgot Falcons only have capacity 6 so tried to pick up the DA, regardless the Falcon would of hide behind the trees and shot at the speeders next turn). Fuegan got a nice fleet roll so hopefully he will pay off (6”) and the dragons took down a Speeder squad whilst the Falcon dropped another Dread (impressive). Scatter Lasers got 3 pens on 2nd Speeder Squad but all were saved and EML did nothing. Fuegan lopped off a MM from the Speeders having moved an impressive 15” that turn. The hawks failed to kill anyone.


Turn 3:

So the SM are hurting more than last game but still not really threatened. Fuegan and the Dragons are all that remain which are scary and the Dragons will die to a stiff breeze. The speeders were that stiff breeze and fried them away whilst the Dread shook the Falcon nearby. The combined fire of the libby and scouts dropped the Hawks and Tac MM + Preds took care of Fuegan and the final pred removed a single Guardian who finally passed their initial Ld check.

Again not much for Eldar to do. Falcons move and everything opens up trying to minimise the firepower coming back at them. Falcon drops a Speeder and guardians take care of the final one whilst the firepower of the EML and 2nd Guardian squad is covered on the Rhinos.


Turn 4/5:

The SM have now lost mobility but haven’t needed it for most of the game. The combined movement of their Rhinos and Preds equates to very little. Rhino immobs as it moves into terrain and Dread moves around falcon but otherwise everything stays pat. Dread knocks off Pulse Laser w/shooting. Stationary tacticals remove the final 3 guardians from the center whilst the Preds shake the Falcon. Scouts/MotF do nothing. Dread assaults falcon and shakes it.


Eldar shooting is minimal and fails to do anything thanks to having 3 units + DA left and so we enter T5 with kill points at 4 to Eldar and 7 to SM. Little movement again by the SM. An MM knocks down a Falcon whilst the rest of the firepower shakes the Serpent and Falcon. The Scatter Laser immobs a Rhino and the game ends, 8KP to 4KP, advantage SM (no picture, nearly the same as last time).

So a closer battle than before and with a different flow. Eldar shooting was very lucky and still only able to take down half of the SM army. Add in a deployment mistake by the SM and the Eldar were able to capitalise and minimise cover saves. Again though, particularly since the SM did not need to advance into midfield and had more firepower than the Eldar, they could just sit there and shoot. The Eldar anti-tank needed to get close whilst the SM Speeders didn’t have to because of their suppression fire. Once again lack of 3+ saves = dead Warlocks and Fuegan was unable to make an impact this time because half an army’s firepower was brought to bear on him and it was not missed elsewhere. The Falcons proved more survivable this game due to SM minimised movement (less AP1) but still were shaken more often than not. Again, the Eldar ran out of tools fast whilst the SM always had something to fall back upon.

The verdict? What I said before. 2x Dragons in Serpents is better than Fuegan. In this respect the Eldar would have had twice the anti-tank options that Fuegan provides but in this list still would of struggled as it lacked firepower across the board. We took a break and then I broke out my 1850 Eldar list to see if we could notice a significant change (I’ll post that separately).

Sorry again about camera failure, taking it into shop when we get back from weekend away and hopefully can have it fixed and put photos up. Until then, make do with vassal mock ups. They aren’t exact but show the general gist of the game.

EDIT: Ail-Shan posted his reply on Warseer so I've copied it here in comments and will post a reply.

29 pinkments:

Chumbalaya said...

WBR is funny.

Divination only works on units in the Eldar army.

Kirby said...

Yaya already had that pointed out to me, woops! lol. Am I now invalid :(? Anyways, didn't change the game dynamic too much. Allowed the MotF to pop a Falcon on T1 but we saw how well in game 2 the SM can deal with 5 Locks + Eld later. Game 2 it gave an advantage to the Eldar by dropping a dread out of cover (rolls a die now...yup see it's a 5! lol).

Ah well, fail to me inthat regard.

Kirby said...

By Ail-Shan:

"Here's the problem though. You played game 1 in about as wrong of a way as you could have.

With the first turn in Dawn of War first move is to deploy the 2 guardian squads along the table center to force your opponent back to the 6" from his edge mark. Using divination you get to redeploy at least 2 units so then after your opponent's deployment the guardians go wherever you like. Everything else should have come on turn 1 from the table edge.

Turn one you move on, Falcons and other vehicles 6-12", hawks 12" and fleet, being sure to take advantage of cover so that not only is it difficult for the opponent to see them but also to target the hawks they must move on from a point not directly across the table from them.

Turn two use fortune on Eldrad and guide 2 of the falcons. Still moving slowly forward the 7 S8 and 8 S4 shots should kill both speeders. Another possibility would be for the hawks (who are farther up) to assault one of the speeders, rather reliably incapacitating them no matter how far they moved.

Turn 3 Primary target is changed to the dreads for the pulse lasers while the scatter lasers double team on the rhinos. Considering your mobile heavy anti tank is now missing and your less mobile anti light tank wont be very reliable in killing my vehicles I say I now have the advantage in the shooty war.

Turn 4. The council's falcon moves up towards the rhinos while Fuegan and the dragons move towards the preds. Council takes advantage of any destroyed rhinos by assaulting the marines (making use of fleet by leaving Eldrad behind if necessary) and about now Fuegan is free to move about your lines in relative safety.


You played the army as a mech eldar army, which it is not. I did not buy the falcons to charge blindly forward and dump of dragons as soon as possible. I bought them to support my army, which you didn't do to well with them.

The army is extremely powerful late game. Usually I don't get fully engaged with my opponent until turn 4-5. But when I do engage I tend to take out quite a lot in a very short amount of time."

Kirby said...

Sigh, I had a reply and then blogger deleted it. Anger. Anyway.

In DoW; why would the opponent want to deploy anything besides his scouts on the table? As it was he was pushed off the objective and my Guardians had ample cover. Notice how they survived the longest. They are virtually 0 threat.

Hawks on foot die. There was minimal BLoS, 2 dakka preds if they had cover and gone. And how well did the army as a whole deal with Speeders? Not very. Dragons were generally the best bet there and if you move your tanks 6" or 12" to fire everything, you will be perma-shaken without cover. How often did those Falcons shoot when they had cover? Still not often. How effective is 7 S8 and 8 S6. Let's see, you should reliably down a single speeder each turn and even then you're only generating about 3-4 rolls on the armor pen table. That's not good. The 3 Rifle Dreads are as likely to cause as many damage rolls against AV12 as your whole anti-armor.

You've got 660 points invested what's inside those Falcons and they are all combat oriented and don't score. You haven't outfit your Falcons correctly for a gunboat (give them 3 heavy weapons, seriously) and want to move them slowly to shoot 2 S8 shots. 2 S8 doesn't scare many armies. Typhoons are good buys here because they are 90 pts. Not 170 and when there are only 4 tanks they will be shaken and not shooting. Like most of these games.

Your whole game plan seems to revolve around you shooting as well. News flash, you won't be shooting much. Drop SMF cover as well and...ya no thanks. Even if you did drop the Speeders, the Rifle Dreads alone are on par with your whole army's shooting. Then add in the Scouts/Tacs/Preds and you think at some point you'll be at an "advantage in the shooty war." Amusing. Game 2 all the Speeders and Dreads were gone and you still weren't at an advantage and that was with good rolls by the Eldar. Your list simply doesn't have enough fire suppresion (a max of 6 units). This may work in upgrade galory world or KP denial lists (both of which are bad) when there's less than 10 units on the table but against good lists who have more than 10 tanks...nope.

Again, Falcons are gunboats. You seemed to have figured this out but not upgraded them so and then given them short-ranged passengers. You are not threatening me with ANYTHING (except the Hawks...2 Dakka Preds later, nothing). My whole army gets to be involved in shutting down your shooting which it can, will and did do. When you start putting nothing or scoring units into Falcons and push your close units forward in Serpents your Falcons can impact on the game (Game 3: 2x speeders, 1 Rhino) as the Serpents are bigger prioities with Dragons in them.

And with your strategy you should never get fully engaged. Falcons are really survivable, true but they do die. Over 4-5 turns I'd be expecting to drop 2 more often than not. In game 1 SM got lucky with 2 drops but Game 2 was more normal and only one died whilst cover shrugged off the suppression fire in T2 but couldn't shoot for most of the game anyways.

The_King_Elessar said...

Sorry Kirbs. I read the first game, and couldn't stomach the second. I nearly vomited on my own face at the sight of that horrible list again.

PROTIP: Don't play idiots, and think that makes you better than everyone who tells you you're obviously shit.

Ail-Shan said...

@Kirby's post
Yes as it was he was, illegally, pushed off the objective. Forcing his scouts or anything ANYONE would want to deploy back to the 6" line can be useful.

And yes the guardians did survive the longest because your opponent was content enough to shoot at the falcons which you donated to his guns. You yourself pointed out the apparent vast superiority of serpents at close range (which isn't really vast at all) yet still thought it wise to charge 3 expensively filled falcons into your opponent, head on nonetheless? And is there any reason you didn't deploy your entire force on the same side as the scouts? Not only would they block your opponents' movement or have to move themselves but they have no cc ability what so ever, though you apparently thought letting a shooty squad stay shooting would be helpful?

Hawks on foot die if you've never used them. Every game I played with them for the first two months they accomplished nearly nothing. But they kept getting better and now tend to accomplish quite a lot, either damaging vehicles or taking down low save models such as genestealers.

Also how many guns as a whole did you put into the speeders. You lost 2 falcons on his first turn do to horrid positioning (though luck with that MotF and your failure of cover saves as well). You had virtually nothing to shoot at them with, and all the while you had to deal with the dreads, preds and tacs all in the same place. You have mobility beyond charging blindly towards your opponent's table edge, so use it!

Cover also is a 4+, not reliably if your opponent will be shaking you anyway. However my falcons are very likely to survive those damage rolls, something a speeder or serpent is not, especially when concentrated on.

And 7 S8 (assuming 5 TL shots from guide and the serpent) along with 8 S6 should reliably down 2 speeders without cover (that's if everything goes the opponent's way). Compared with your 4 rifle dreads averaging HALF of an immobilized or wrecked falcon. I'd say odds are in my favor of removing your fast guns. So yes I'm pretty sure I can outshoot you from range. scatter lasers should get 2 rolls on the damage table, the S8 guns getting about 3.5, so I get 5-6 compared to your 3-4. Check your math.

Ail-Shan said...

part 2: (sorry I felt I should cover everything)

My falcons are designed to support their passengers, not act as a lone vehicle killing machine. Even so other than on guardians I have no way of justifying paying 10 more points for a scatter laser above a shuriken cannon.

Correct, 2 S8 shots doesn't scare many armies. It's not supposed to. But it's sufficient. Typhoons are only 90 points, but last I recall they die nearly as easily as vypers, and don't have a transport capacity. And in any case I can't buy typhoons.

My whole game plan revolves around being flexible, which is why the falcons are not built as gun boats. If I want them to move fast I'm not wasting points on extra guns. If I want them to sit back and shoot they can do so relatively effectively. In addition if one of the 2 falcons not carrying Eldrad gets shot down the one squad can still join the other.

SMF cover isn't reliable, even with fortune something still gets through and you still get hurt for it. That's why I like to take advantage of my range while I can, using speed to get good firing positions.

I already pointed out the flaw of the rifle dreads being as effective as my shooting. Scouts have snipers, not reliable. The MotF can be a problem though true, but that's still 1 shot which if I'm close to him wont do a thing.

Game 2 you lost all your firepower/mobility in exchange for the dreads and speeders, so it's pretty easy to see why that didn't matter as much. And enough fire suppression for what? Killing vehicles? With good target priority and movement that hasn't been a problem yet. There's only 1 horde ork player, my store owner, and I've only played against that army once, resulting in a near draw. Honestly you don't look like you have enough shots for such an army, and you can't maneuver around it.

And again the 2 dakkapreds against the hawks. If the birds manage to bag a squadron of speeders I'd be pretty happy with that especially since that's 4 fewer auto cannon shots at my tanks. And if I happen to have cover it'll be lucky on your side if you kill all 7.

Also notice that in game 1 the reason you lost 2 falcons was because you charged forward. Had you not done so you wouldn't have been seen through night fight, and you wouldn't have been killed by immobilized results. Game 2 again you charged forward without softening up your target. This is not a mech eldar army, so please do not play it like one.

I still feel that you played the list completely wrong, and I would love it if I were able to do a game against you.

GaleRazorwind said...

For what it's worth, I'm one of Ail-Shan's regular opponents. We have played quite a few games where he was using the list being discussed and the best I can ever seem to pull off against him is a draw. I have an amazingly potent Tyranid list and playstyle that has only lost 4 times since the new codex came out, which includes both casual games and tournament play, and I believe 1 or 2 of those losses were against Ail-Shan.

It is worth mentioning that my normal list has 4 units with important psychic powers that get heavily shut down by RoWar, so I feel that I am always playing him at a severe disadvantage, but I can't beat him with my CSM, either (Khorne themed).

I can attest to how Ail-Shan describes how his army is played. He always hangs back in the first turn or two and doesn't really start to wreak havok until the late game. I had a game against him with my Tyranids and I was demolishing him until the last turn or so, where he managed to pick off a bunch of my weakened units. I was ahead by several KPs, but he pulled off (at least) a draw (it was basically a rematch of a tournament game that I lost to him).

The message you should take out of this is that, given identical lists, not everyone will be able to use them to their full potential. While my balanced reserves Tyranid list has worked incredibly well for me, I would imagine that an average player wouldn't be able to use it properly as it requires an extremely precise execution with a lot of random rules to remember (Tyranids are one of the most unique special rule heavy armies out there) in order to be effective. That's not to say you are an average player, it is just happens to be a major factor for my particular list. In your case, it's likely just a difference in the way you think about how to use a list.

GWvsJohn said...

What's this amazingly potent 'Nid list you run?

My guess is that Ail has the same problem most warseers do. When you never seen an actual, good 5e list, the best of the crap seems awesome.

I will obviously agree that tabletop skill plays a big part, but a bad list only goes so far.

Kirby said...

The scouts were already pushed off the objective by Guardian deployment. Deploying anything but the scouts would ofplayed into Eldar hands. They did have enough firepower to drop one of the Tac Rhinos. As it was the move advantaged the SM in the end anyway.

Guardians survived because they weren’t a threat and didn’t need to be shot until fire was able to be brought to bear (I.e. flamers or Dakka Preds). What did they do during any of the games? Pretty much nothing. 8 S6 BS3 shots for 200+ pts isn’t great. Deploying on the same side as the scouts would of given the SM range advantage (see Game 3). Pass on that. Scouts are a very minor threat compared to everything else and your list doesn’t have the capacity to deal with them and tanks and 30 marines.

Hawks die. It’s that simple. 4+ save and needing intervening models for cover =/= survivable and for 200pts when they suck at anti-tank and anti-infantry? Why would you bother. For 210 pts I can take 3 Vypers who are much better at everything. There is no “need how to learn to use them.” You can’t make a sucky unit unsuck. How are they going to get a squadron of Speeders? Since apparently you don’t move your Falcons w/your anti-tank forward, the Hawks are alone cause I ain’t moving forward (see Game 2) because SM firepower > your Eldar firepower. Hawks die because they are alone. And 2 Dakka Preds shooting at them in cover will drop 9 on average w/o including Exarch save. gg

Let’s get back to the firepower.

Forgot the TL. So your whole army generates 2 more AV10 rolls than 3 of my units generate on AV12. You’re still claiming more firepower? What happens when Guide gets Hood’d? Or I take into account 7 MMs, 3 more AC and the MotF? I’m getting more damage rolls than you with the added bonus of AP1 against your AV12 (this is Eldar’s strength, AV12. Look at game3). Start trying to shake my Preds/Dreads/Tacs and your chances go down. You also have 4 tanks, I have 13. You see where I’m going here? You shake or even kill my speeders and I still have enough firepower to shut down all of your tanks. Your fire suppresion is bad and you’re claiming it’s better than the SM.

Back to the Falcons and their movement.

We’ve established the Eldar firepower in Games 1 & 2 is bad. Stop trying to get around it, it is. You want to sit at range and shoot me. Go for it, SM will chew you a new one. They are more reliable due to weight of fire and more twin-linking and have more targets than you can handle. The Falcons hold cargo that can damage tanks significantly. Two of those units are also expensive. You want me to leave them at the back where they get out shot? That’s fail tactics and fail list building. Your Falcons don’t support your passengers, they have terribly mixed roles. Falcons excel at 24-36” (though yours is less effective and only at 24”…hey that 10 pts seems useful now). Their passengers excel < 12”. Problem.

To the Typhoon reference; then stop using them like Typhoons. Get more firepower on them and stop moving them so they can’t shoot all of their guns. They aren’t a Land raider either like in 4th, they are a gunboat which you do not use them as w/2 S8 shots and close range passengers. Again and again you will get out shot by your opponent if you do. Your Falcons are not flexible because of their passengers. You want to be out shot by your opponent, be my guest. Want to be out shot by your opponent and have another 600+ points stuck inside them? And then complain about paying 20 pts for an extra 4 S6 shots and an extra 12” range of 4 of them? *error noise* A properly built falcon has anti-infantry and anti-tank options at a reliable rate. Your Falcon has neither. Let’s chuck in 60 more pts to make mine scoring.

Kirby said...

Cover ignores 50% of shots fired at you. That’s 50% of all damage rolls. It sure helped in game 2 and game 3 because I got to get some shots off. Shame the Eldar in your list still don’t have enough firepower to deal with the SM whilst in game 3 when they did it was a much more intense battle.

What army doesn’t have enough firepower or mobility to deal with Orks? Orks suck. If you mean my Eldar or my SM…lol. Here eat a tank a game whilst I run around in circles. Oh you’re in Trukks? Wow your Trukk died and you have tiny squads. Bad example Orks. And ya in Game 2 I lost all my firepower/mobility to take down the dangerous units of the SM. What else was I to do? Throw a couple S6/8 at him? That doesn’t fare well when they can OUT SHOOT YOU.

Now to your remarks about scouts/dakkas. They are anti-infantry. I’m happy when they get to shoot at infantry because they are more effective at doing those things. They have minor duality against tanks which is what makes them decent. You’re happy that x auto cannons aren’t shooting at you? Me too because they have better targets in the Guardians/Hawks and I still have enough firepower to shake you en masse. That’s what fire suppression is, stopping you from shooting. SM did it very effectively in Games 1 & 2.

If I didn’t charge forward in Game 1, yup the Falcon’s wouldn’t of died, their passengers would have been left in the sticks (I recall the original nightfight rolls for some of the spotlights was quite high; further the MotF would still of got the S10 Ap1 beamer shot) and you’d of done less damage to the SM as some of your best anti-tank was more in your backfield. The SM had more shooting than you the Eldar so they’d of been happy with you standing off which you simply don’t get.

12 TL S7, 6 S7, 12 S5, 7 S8 AP1 at BS4 are better than 17 S6, 6 S8, 1 TL S8 at BS3 even when you TL 4 more S8 shots in pure anti-tank. Add in fire suppression and the Eldar simply cannot shoot back. Did you not see this throughout the games? Ignore the wrecked/explodes and how often were they firing? Barely because the SM had infinitely better target saturation and fire suppression. This doesn’t matter if you were close or far away and SMF helped stave off most of the suppression anyways.

By forcing the Falcons forward, the better anti-tank was closer to position if they died and if they didn’t die, the better anti-tank was closer to position and you could bring all of your firepower to bear from your tanks (which you never seem to contemplate because you always move 12” w/your Falcons). Notice game 2 when this worked and Eldar still didn’t have any answer to the SM. It’s a risk but it’s better than sitting at range and hoping HF works for you.

I’d love to play this list, too. It’d be boring as hell but so vindicating. Come to Australia (hehe internet challenges *giggles*) or let’s play on Vassal.

Kirby said...

Silly post comment size! lol

@Gale; would love to see this ‘potent’ Nid list. And CSM aren’t that great, themed in particular. We all want 3.5 back.

Also, ignoring the not so veiled insults at my playing ability, trying to play a stand-off list is fine, don’t make a crap one nor try to claim inferior firepower is better to superior firepower. SM will easily shake most of his rides and stop his shooting because he doesn’t have saturation. Even when he gets his full firepower off he’s going to cause a max of 6 damage results due to 6 units but is only likely to roll 6 damage results on AV10. The SM army can shut down 4 AV12s, the Eldar army cannot shut down 4 AV10s, 3 AV13s, 3 AV11s and 3 AV12s.

Here’s a ‘proper’ stand-off Eldar list using mostly what Ail uses that brings a lot of dakka to the table, can sac the Dragons on heavy tanks if needed but otherwise stays at 24-36” and giggles.

Eldrad
3x 5 Dragons in Serpent w/TL-Shuricannons, Chin Shuricannon (2 w/stones)
2x SL/SC Vyper
5x DA in Serpent w/TL-BL, Chin Shuricannon
3x 5x DA
3x Falcon w/SC/SL/PL/HF/SS

So let’s see, the 2nd list has 37 more S6 (9 TL), the same S8 but one is Lance, 9 more meltaguns, 5 more tank chassis’ and no Hawks. This list wins every time barring crappy rolls and would still be on an even playing field against Mech SM (see Game 3).

Anonymous said...

I too am interested in seeing this 'amazingly potent' Nid list.

"The message you should take out of this is that, given identical lists, not everyone will be able to use them to their full potential. While my balanced reserves Tyranid list has worked incredibly well for me, I would imagine that an average player wouldn't be able to use it properly as it requires an extremely precise execution with a lot of random rules to remember (Tyranids are one of the most unique special rule heavy armies out there) in order to be effective."

The not-so-subtle way of saying you're a great player and insinuating that the rest of us who have to resort to using good lists are inferior players. Sorry, mate, but logic doesn't work that way. Especially as there's the miniscule chance that "we" (i.e., Kirby, GWvsJohn and I) actually play against good opponents with good lists.

Furthermore, when discussing what's good and what's not in a non-contextual setting (i.e., the internet) it is worthless to make unfounded assumptions in one's own favour about player skill. Always assume the opponent is a great player with a great list.

-Thud

The_King_Elessar said...

Indeed. I always assume an unknown opponent will AT LEAST be my equal.

GaleRazorwind said...

Post Part 1:

Hive Fleet Box Elder Bug
1850 Tournament List

HQ1: Hive Tyrant with Lash Whip/Bone Sword, Twin-Linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Hive Commander, Leech Essence, Paroxysm, and a Tyrant Guard (270 points)

HQ2: Tervigon with Adrenal Glands, Toxin Sacs, Cluster Spines, and Catalyst (195 points)

Elites1: The Doom of Minneso’Ta (Malan’Tai) in a Mycetic Spore (130 Points)

Elites2: 3 Zoanthropes in a Mycetic Spore (220 points)

Elites3: 3 Venomthropes (165 points)

Troops 1: 13 Hormagaunts with Adrenal Glands and Toxin Sacs (130 points)

Troops 2: 12 Hormagaunts with Adrenal Glands and Toxin Sacs (120 points)

Troops 3: 12 Hormagaunts with Adrenal Glands and Toxin Sacs (120 points)

Heavy Support1: Trygon Prime with Adrenal Glands (250 points)

Heavy Support2: Trygon Prime with Adrenal Glands (250 points)

Total: 1850 Points

This army can be played either offensively or defensively depending on the opponent (against Orks in particular I use the defensive strategy), but its main mode of operation is an offensive 1-2 punch I describe as Hammer and Thongs. My Hormagaunts are the Thongs and my Trygons/Zoanthropes are the Hammer.

The Tyrant is deployed with his Gaurd and one of the 12 man Hormagaunt broods, along with the Tervigon, the Venomthropes, and the other 12 man brood of Hormagaunts in a traditional Nid cover phalanx. The 13 man brood is generally outflanking, but in Spearhead missions I will occasionally put them in regular reserve if it looks like it would be better. Everything rushes forward in turn 1 for a turn 2 assault. It doesn't matter if it looks like I'm taking heavy casualties, because only half my army is on the board. The Hormagaunts, while excellent combat troops, are in small broods to increase coverage and manueverability, and all they have to do is tarpit an enemy squad for one turn.

The Trygons, the Doom, and the Zoanthropes all Deep Strike. The Doom is brought in where I can get him near as many non-vehicle units (or occupied transports) as possible. I consider him to be a suicide troop and don't expect him to survive for more than a turn.

The Zoanthropes go for the enemy's heavy armor and continue to wreck everything they can.

My favorite spot for the Trygons to come in is 1" away from the rear armor of vehicles (they have scatter correction like a Drop Pod) so they can blast it with their Containment Spines. This can be used to destroy transports so the Hormagaunts can eat the contents, or to disable walkers, among other things.

If all goes according to plan, the Hormagaunts will hold key targets in place to prevent them from firing at the Trygons while they wait to be able to assault. I don't really care if my Hormies die, as long as I am able to safely deliver my Hammer. On turn 3, the real pain starts as my Trygons begin to erase whats left of my enemy.

GaleRazorwind said...

Post Part 2:

The main area that I can potentially suffer from is that my assault tends to peak on turn 4, so if I don't finish my opponent off around then, my weakened forces can often be picked off and destroyed. Fortunately, this doesn't happen too often.

In relation to Ail-Shan's list, RoWar makes my Zoanthropes retarded, the Doom has his big attack potentially silenced, my Tervigon can't cast Catalyst (FNP), and I can't support my Hormagaunts with Paroxysm from the Tyrant. Furthermore, it is very dangerous for my Tyrant and Tervigon to attempt to cast their powers as they don't have any invulnerable save.

The Holo-Field Falcons aren't easy to crack either, especially since my Zoanthropes are shut down.

On the subject of my comment, not only did I never say that any of you are average players, I specifically stated that your skill level is not the deciding factor in this case, only in my case, and then go on to explain that the difference in your case is in the way you think about how to use a list. You really shouldn't take what I say out of context.

For the record, I say without guilt that I am a great player. The effort I put into not only learning how to play the game, but to memorizing the rules of the game, my armies, and even armies I don't play, along with memorizing countless statistics, over the past year was huge. I will again bring up the fact that I have only lost 4 games with the new Tyranids, having played about 2-3 games a week every week since the dex came out. There were two three-round tournaments in there, one of which I came in 2nd out of 16. I got screwed over in the other one when I got matched up with an opponent who was quite literally retarded to a slight degree, complete with drool dripping from mouth to floor, who I had to babysit the whole game as he kept making errors on basic rules as well as not telling me what he was doing. That sucked up all of my time to play, so I took an an entire turn of Gaurd shooting with no chance to retaliate.

In both tournaments I won 2/3 games, and one of the losses was against Ail-Shan, which prompted the rematch that I mentioned in my first post.

I was in a mini kill-team tourny today that I won, but two rounds wasn't exactly much of a competition.

Anyway, I never assume anyone is worse than me, even after playing them multiple times, which gets me into a little trouble as it means I never hold back and never take anything less than my best lists, which has resulted in the crushing of several noobs, but believe me when I say that I don't consider being able to crush a noob as a good judge of my abilities. I say I'm a great player based on beating other good players.

Kirby said...

Implications are key on the internet ^^.

Reasons your list is not potent:
1) lack of fire. full stop. You deal with a mech or mobile army how again?
2) Tervi in HQ w/no Termaguants. Tervigons are pretty decent buffers but not worth their points outside of Troops or w/o Termaguants around unless you're running a 5 Tervi list which is only viable at 2.5k + when you can get Fex broods working. Waste of points here
3) You're too focused on synapse and are paying out the wazoo for it.
4) Combining with number 1, you have no in your face capabilities outside of the Trygons & DoM and since you can't slow opponents with your shooting...you get dictated

There's an idea behind the list. Drop the Primeness on Trygons, add in some Raveners, get rid of the Zoans/Venoms/DoM and add some HG and at least drop the Termaguant only upgrades on the Tervigon (I'd still move it to Troops x2 and only have 2 Horma squads) and you'd have a much more potent list (assuming points add up). As it stands your list will munch anything it gets into combat (most Tyranid armies do this by default) but anyone who can stay out of combat is fine and you have minimal ability to apply combat pressure with your list.

Also, saying you are a great player and play 2-3 games a week is great, better than BoLS authors saying they invented mech guard or are unbeaten with Foot Eldar (though you lose out a bit by dropping in 4 loses only). Shame you don't play great lists which makes everyone here doubt you. Both the lists from you area we've seen are not potent and would be chomped by any sort of mech list. Any list that "peaks" late game (or like Ail-Shan's is more 'potent' late game) gives your opponent with a good list more time to rip you apart. Even Vulkan lists start operating in most missions and against most opponents at peak efficiency on T2/3. Proper Tyranid armies should be in your face on T1 or suppressing your armor from T1, not T4.

And don't use the word retarded, if an individual has a disability try and be polite about it.

GaleRazorwind said...

So should we call fire retardant fire developmentally delayedant so we don't hurt its feelings? The fact of the matter is that mental retardation is an actual condition, and why should we kid ourselves with the notion that someone who is "developmentally delayed" is going to eventually have a normal level of intelligence. I'm Bipolar, and I don't go around telling people to call me "mood-ally challenged". In any case, I am not using the word retarded as an insult, I am using it as the proper term to describe someone of his mental capabilities.

Back on topic, I think you misunderstood what I meant when I said my list peaks on turn 4. When I say it peaks on turn 4, I mean that after turn 4, my force can start to get worn down enough that if I didn't kill enough stuff in the earlier turns, my weakened units can get picked off. On turn 2, I cause I huge amount of destruction with my initial assaults and powerful shooting, and on turn 3, I cause even more damage as my Trygons begin their rampage. By the end of turn 3, my enemy is usually crippled, and the rest of the game is mop-up.

You mention a Vulkan list. I crushed a Vulkan+MoF Dreadnaught list (I believe it had 3 Ironclads, 2 regular Dreads, and a TFC) with my Tyranid list.

I deal with mech armies with fewer problems than you'd expect. A Trygon's 12 S5 shots at the rear armor of a tank is usually more than enough to wreck or incapacitate a vehicle, as are the 3 Warp Lances. After the initial round of shooting on turn 2, my Trygons can shred vehicles in CC.

The only time I have ever run into trouble is against Eldar, as Holo-Fields are a bitch to get through, even for a Trygon.

'Ard Boyz is coming up this Saturday and I'm using an extension of my current list, so that should be an excellent opportunity to see how viable the core of the list is, at least. My Tyranids came in 4/16 last year. I probably could have gotten 3rd place if I could have finished my 3rd game. We ran out of time because I had to move my 90+ models from the upstairs room to the downstairs room, and then I checkerboarded my 40 Termagants and 40 Hormagunts, and then my opponent checkerboarded about 50 Gaurdsmen. It would have been the difference between a minor victory and a massacre.

I also bombed in the first round as I missed that my opponent's Rippers had Leaping, and they tarpitted my two Gant squads when I figured I had a full turn to obliterate them. 9AM is not exactly my most alert time of the day, after all.

With any luck, a years worth of experience should hopefully get me into the top 3 this time.

Kirby said...

Retarded has colloquial connotations as you well know. It's not hard to say "I played someone with a disability." or "My opponent had downsyndrome." When you say something along the lines of "quite literally retarded", well you're going to get a slap in the face from anyone who works in the "caring" professions. Consider yourself slapped by the most non-humanistic of the lot.

What powerful shooting? What destructive assaults on T2? Sorry but do you play with any sort of blocking ability in your area? Didn't think so. Just because you say you've beaten mech lists or whatever, doesn't mean your list is good. I can say I've beaten a 4000pt army with a 500pt army (oh and last time I checked, MC >>>>>>>>>>>> Dreads...hmm wonder why you were capable of beating that list w/2 Trygons & a Tyrant). I just showed how Ail-Shan's list fails against a balanced Mech list, it doesn't have the firepower to deal with it, irregardless of how he thinks it should be played. Let's see you versus a good list run by someone on this blog with your list. Not going to happen how you think it is because your opponent's can think and actually put a stop to your plans. Both you and Ail-Shan's battle plans and turn by turn analysis seem to run on the assumption your opponent fails to do anything in their turn.

Rather than tell us of your exploits try countering some of the arguments put down about your or Ail's list compared to how your army should work. In ideal worlds that's great but we live in an evironment where your opponent is (unfortunately :() trying their best to stop you and when that opponent is half-way decent with a balanced list, they will stop your and Ail's lists. There are too many weaknesses to cover.

Oh and any army should be able to lose any unit, at any time of the game. Not from T4 onwards. If it can't, then it's generally a lynchpin and either needs to be amazingly durable with a balanced army around it (i.e. TH/SS Termies or Swarmlord) or it's not a balanced army and will meet it's counter-army at some point in a tournament and lose.

GaleRazorwind said...

*damn, just lost half of my post...*

Part 1:

You seem to be a big fan of strawman arguments. I never said anything about losing specific units, I said that after turn 4, if I didn't kill enough stuff, my units can get picked off. Usually, by the late game, 1 or 2 of my Hormagaunt squads are reduced to a few models, so they can become easy kill points. Please take the time to read what I am actually saying and stop using strawmen.

GaleRazorwind said...

Part 2:

I'll try to counter your arguments:
1) lack of fire. full stop. You deal with a mech or mobile army how again?
This is a moot point because, regardless of any lack of apparent firepower, the ranged attacks my units provide is all I need because I'm in assault by turn 2. I don't need anymore firepower for my list to work like it is supposed to. I deal with a mech army in much the same way I deal with every army. In turn 1, I determine target priority, and in turn 2, I deploy my drop troops in their ideal positions to take out the biggest threats to my army, and guess what, they take those targets out. It softens up my food before I start to chew, and it works. Since they have Adrenal Glands, my Hormagaunts are capable of glancing vehicles to death, and have trapped their fair share of enemy units inside their transport. While you may not like how I do it, you can't argue with the results I get.

2) Tervi in HQ w/no Termaguants. Tervigons are pretty decent buffers but not worth their points outside of Troops or w/o Termaguants around unless you're running a 5 Tervi list which is only viable at 2.5k + when you can get Fex broods working. Waste of points here
I like my Tervigon as an HQ. It is great for DoW missions as I can put down two Hormagaunt squads and the Tervigon and then get a further Gant squad into the mix. My Tervigon may not always be my MVP, but he does a great job of holding the line together and taking a little pressure off some of my other units. People still overestimate what a Tervigon can do, and I take advantage of that. At some point, I may have to exchange him for something else, but for now, he works just fine.

GaleRazorwind said...

Part 3:

3) You're too focused on synapse and are paying out the wazoo for it.
I'm not focusing on synapse, it just happens that a good portion of my units have it. I take my Tervigon for the synapse and my Tyrant is there to provide some back up synapse (Hive Commander and Paroxysm are the main reasons I take him) if I decide to take his node elsewhere. My Zoanthropes are taken purely for their offensive capabilities, and if they happen to give synapse, thats great. I pay the 40 points for my Primes because I really like having the extra 6 shots and extra 6" range as it greatly increases their tank popping ability. Again, synapse is a bonus. I do have to say, I enjoy not having to worry about my Hormagaunts running away if they get ahead of my Tyrant/Tervigon, though.

4) Combining with number 1, you have no in your face capabilities outside of the Trygons & DoM and since you can't slow opponents with your shooting...you get dictated
Are TS+AG Hormagaunts not "in your face" enough for you? They are for me. Your problem is that you are assuming I do not have enough firepower, but is wrecking three key targets really not slowing my opponent's shooting? You're underestimating just how devestating that is. I could end all of your Dakka-Preds or Dreads on turn 2, and then end the rest on turn 3, and that's just with my Zoanthropes and Trygons. You still have to deal with all of my Hormagaunts and my Tyrant and my Tervigon. My whole army is in your face by turn 2 and is destroying everything they touch.

I'm going to say it again. Regardless of how you think a proper Tyranid army should work, I have found my niche with this list and I continue to get results from it. Ever since I started last year, I have tried to embody the Tyranid principles of adaptation. In every game, I am always watching to see what works and what doesn't and how to best react to any particular situation I encounter, and the knowledge I gained from this is what led to my current list. I have made almost no changes at all to my 1850 list since February (I have moved the last 10 points around to various areas for upgrades and other superficial changes) because it wins just about every time. As long as I continue to win with it, I see little reason to make any changes to my list. If there comes a time when I no longer win, I will adapt and change my list.

One of the great parts about Warhammer 40K is that, with most armies, there is always more than one way to build a good army, and different people will migrate to the build that they get the best results with. Perhaps you can't do a good job with my list because you don't see what I see. I might have a hard time with a list you made because I don't see what you see. In the end, it doesn't really matter. While I enjoy the competitive side of things, I'm obeying the number 1 rule: Have fun! I have fun with my army, and I want to keep it that way.

Chumbalaya said...

Ugh, terribad nid list FTL.

It has nothing to hurt amor beyond Zoanthropes (6 space marines in terms of durability) and assaulting with slow MCs.

It will table crappy foot armies, but a solid mech force will roll right through it.

Thud said...

"You mention a Vulkan list. I crushed a Vulkan+MoF Dreadnaught list (I believe it had 3 Ironclads, 2 regular Dreads, and a TFC) with my Tyranid list."

Anecdotal evidence. This is worthless.

I once beat a triple GT winner with only 1k points to his 2k. Or did I? Either way it's irrelevant.

"As long as I continue to win with it, I see little reason to make any changes to my list. If there comes a time when I no longer win, I will adapt and change my list."

This would have been a good point, except it is not. To elaborate, I'm now building/playing a Sanguinary Guard list (Dante, Sanguinor, 2x Priests, 4x Sang Guard, 1x Assault squad). Of the 11 games I've played with it, I've tabled my opponents six times, tied twice, lost twice and won comfortably once. Does this mean that my list is awesome? No. Does it mean I'm a great player? Maybe, but as I know I'm more or less on par with the guys against which I have played with it, probably not. So, what does it mean? Either my opponents have not yet learned how to deal with it (likely), or they have mysteriously gotten worse at 40k during the last three months.

Correlation != causality.

And Kirby: "Irregardless" is not a word. Fewl! :p

Kirby said...

Shush Thud =D, it's such a fun word to write. Anyways (not a word, too!) going to reply out on this because it needs a snowmobilin!

GWvsJohn said...

It's nonstandard, but it's a word :) Use it as much as you want, make full use of your voKirbulary

GaleRazorwind said...

This argument is like trying to explain Austrian Free-Market Economics to an Obama/McCain supporter. I am seeing some standard fallacies and vauge responses to a degree I haven't seen since '08.

Chumbalaya, instead of telling me my list is "terribad" and that a "solid mech list" would "roll through" me, how about you tell me exactly how you would respond to my list and tactics exactly as I have described them here (that means reading my posts, not what others are saying about my posts) with a "solid mech list" that was designed for standard tournament play (i.e. not a tailored list). That way I can try to understand where you are coming from so I can properly refute your arguments. Anything less devolves into petty insults.

This argument ultimately boils down to me saying, "Yes I can!" and you saying, "No you can't!". I have posted a huge amount of information with plenty of detail, but I'm not getting any responses that have the same level of detail, not to mention that you guys have been misrepresenting my arguments (Kirby in particular) in nearly every post you make, so while it looks like you are making a decent argument on the surface, you aren't even talking about the same things I am. Again, that is a strawman argument and it is not acceptable in a debate like this.

Thud, while isolated cases of annecdotal evidence do not make a good argument, there isn't much else that can be said. How do you guys know what is good and what isn't in 40K? You probably didn't learn from a scientific textbook, you learned by playing the game and gaining experience, coupled with the stories and strategies presented to you on websites or in person. Based on your experiences, you drifted towards what you determined to be the most effective builds, which ultimately boils down to a whole bunch of annecdotes collected over a substantial period of time that indicated you should use what you use now, and what you will use in the future. Personally, I try not to base my understanding of the game on isolated incidents. I base it on every single incident I have come across since I started playing that I can remember.

Playing a game or two will not provide enough information to judge the quality of a list and its strategy, but don't you think the collective information of over 30 games against different opponents and armies and lists might have some shred of credibility to it? My sample size makes up for the annecdotal nature of the information I am relaying to you.

If you'd like, I can tell you how my list has done against a wide variety of opponents. Off the top of my head, I've played against Orks, Necrons, Space Marines, Eldar, Tyranids, Chaos Space Marines, Chaos Daemons, Sisters of Battle, and Imperial Gaurd. Each battle presented its own unique challenges, but the same two strategies I have employed have remained relatively constant. The only army I ever had a lot of trouble against was Eldar with RoWar and Holo-Field Falcons, and this is where I am acknowledging the fact that that particular combination is my army's main weakness.

Besides, what reason do I have to lie? Do I seem like the kind of person who lies about this sort of thing? I'm sure you must have had to deal with a lot of exageration and made up occurances from people on other forums, but this is one time where you can actually trust someone. False information is not a produtive contribution to a proper debate, and would only serve to injure my cause.

I have presented my counter arguments, so now you need to counter my counter arguments with more than just repeating the same line over and over. If you don't get into specifics, you aren't contributing to the debate.

Kirby said...

There is another post about this to avoid big long comments from me.

Thud said...

"Thud, while isolated cases of annecdotal evidence do not make a good argument, there isn't much else that can be said. How do you guys know what is good and what isn't in 40K? You probably didn't learn from a scientific textbook, you learned by playing the game and gaining experience, coupled with the stories and strategies presented to you on websites or in person. Based on your experiences, you drifted towards what you determined to be the most effective builds, which ultimately boils down to a whole bunch of annecdotes collected over a substantial period of time that indicated you should use what you use now, and what you will use in the future. Personally, I try not to base my understanding of the game on isolated incidents. I base it on every single incident I have come across since I started playing that I can remember."

When it comes to 40k, the opposite of anecdotal evidence is simply the ability to read.

It's like why I contend that mechanized Eldar armies are better than footslogging Eldar armies (and that your army is not particularly good): I know how to read.

So what is it that I use my ability to read on then? Is it Stelek or Kirby telling me through their blogs what's good? No. It's the 40k main rules and the current codices. The current vehicle rules, the current mission rules and the current point cost tendency all support mechanized armies as the best choice. I'll just go ahead and assume you agree with me on this. Right? That IG mech, SM mech, Eldar mech etc are the top contenders for strongest army currently in 40k (Yes, I know cav SW and Nids can be pretty good as well, but let's keep it simple for now).

Now, moving on to why I think your list is bad.

First of all; you don't have a way to deal with these top contenders, especially if they are handled by competent players. And, as I've said before, unless we assume that you are facing good players with good lists, this discussion is worthless.

Let's take IG mech as an example. Say 16 tanks in 1850. That's a fair number. On the first turn they will drop one of your Trygons and all three Zoanthropes. On turn two you do nothing but advance and then you'll start taking wounds on the Tervigon and the Tyrant, most likely lose a Gaunt unit as well. Then, on turn 3 your Trygon reaches combat and kills a Chimera. Wohoo! Let's say your Gaunts are close enough to assault the dudes inside. 3 dead Gaunts (because they'll be charging through cover) and in return you kill the squad. Now your Trygon dies, the Tervigon, so does your Gaunts, all of them, and your Tyrant.

So, left are your Venomthropes, looking aimlessly about themselves, ready to be slaughtered next turn. I probably forgot some of your stuff, but you get the picture, right? You have nothing able to deal with the tanks, and the few things you do have will die either on the way forward or after having killed one tank. Not exactly a great result; the IG have 15 tanks left and you're wiped off the table.

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