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Wednesday, July 21, 2010

Discussion: Eldar Aspect Warriors Changes


Well I've reviewed the Eldar Aspect Warriors before and why they are pretty meh outside of Fire Dragons and DAVUs. A post on H-O prompted this so I'm just going to copy paste myself from there and let's get some discussion rolling. These thoughts are me just thinking aloud and covering the major weaknesses or failings of the Aspects Warriors individually (some of these ideas have been shouted about elsewhere on this blog, other blogs & forums so if you "came up with said change" don't bite my head off!).

The Eldar codex is one of the most imbalanced books out there internally. Outside of Wave Serpents w/DAVU, the occasional SG squad, Falcons, Prisms, Vypers, Dragons, Seers & Autarchs inc. warlocks there's not much going for Eldar. Take anything over these and you've paid a high opporunity cost. In that regard you need to compete with these units. The biggest change and 'easiest' way to do this is each Phoenix Lord makes a certain number (if not the whole entry) of their Aspect count as Troops. This means making a WS & SS PL. PLs also need to not be 200+ point sinks of fail without an invul thanks.

Without posting an essay (I'm under a painting deadline!) some concepts outside of PL = Troops are:



Scoprions: Fleet, nades (perhaps rending?)
Banshees: assault out of Serpent, nades
Warp Spiders: dangerous check for unit they hit, 6"+D6" 2nd jump, alternate shooting option? (i.e. S5 AP1 no snare effect?)
Shining Spears: serious points drop, WS5, automatic hit & run upgrade, some sort of invul perhaps?, nades, a bloody pistol!
Dark Reapers: serious points drop, bonus against vehicles (2D6 maybe? that's an avg of 12 though... or simply S6), move & fire
Swooping Hawks: 4+ invul, improved haywire nades, points drop, rending gun

Dire Avengers & Dragons are both fine as they are though some changes would be nice (more flamers for Dragons?) to keep up with upgrades elsewhere. Also Exarchs maybe up WS to 6 on combat aspects?

The main thing is PL changing the FoC. Being able to take say Banshees or Scorpions as Troops adds more flexibility and still allows killer anti-tank with Dragons or if you're going for an all Bike type army you can grab Seer Councils, GJBs and actual good combat units through Spears, etc. So let's hear what you think and reasons why.

15 pinkments:

sonsoftaurus said...

I don't think you'd even need to go so far as Phoenix Lords; just let Autarchs make a squad of Aspects Troops or even just scoring.

rosvojaska said...

If Phoenix Lords moved troops around the FoC, there would be a point in picking them. As they are now, they're pretty much useless. Autarchs do plenty enough on their own, they don't need any more buffing. Atleast in the utility section.

brian said...

i think PLs as an upgrade to a squad that allows them to become scoring is a fair change. An overall price reduction to aspects would be nice but as is I feel that most perform a given niche well. Something like rending or 5+ to hit count as AP 3 i dunno to warp spiders would be nice.

Katie Drake said...

Liking these sorts of articles as of late, Kirbs. :)

That said, I think Scorpions need their basic S of 4 back (or at least the Exarch does, to make the Scorpion's claw a decent upgrade that's an actual threat to stuff).

Banshees should probably move as Beasts but count as Infantry for all other purposes (including moving up and down levels in buildings).

Spiders are in my opinion fine as they are, though a 6+D6" jump would be nice, or perhaps 18" range on their guns.

Dark Reapers just need Tank Hunter and a slightly reduced cost (two effectively S6 shots each at vehicles would make them not completely suck against tanks yet not too overpowering).

You pretty much got Shining Spears and Hawks.

Cyklown said...

Quite frankly, they need to take DA down to 10 pts each and then set them to 6-10 man squads. Rending would also be nice, since they'd then be able to touch transports. Failing that, giving them improved haywires along with hawks might be nice.

Think about it: Davu's would remain unchanged (well, they'd be sliiiiightly more durable if their transport got shot down and they were huddled outside, crying for their mothers), but a maxed out squad wouldn't be quite as pricey.

Kirby said...

@sonsoftaurus; agree with rosvojaska in relation to Autarchs. You'd also get 'complex' rules of which Aspects Autarchs move most likely dependent on wargear, etc. As rosvojaska says, making PLs move the FoC about would encourage their use (beyond making them cheaper and have an invul). Combat characters are just a point sink, they have to provide for your army. The Autarch does that with reserve manipulation but some changes there might also be good.

@brian; as upgrade characters that might become expensive as you still need an HQ and to make a single squad scoring? Meh unless they are cheapish which goes against what they are meant to be.

@Katie Drake; glad you're enjoying them. Agree with base S4 on Scorpions. Main issue for Banshees is timing their assaults, if you could tank shock and assault out of a Serpent (with the crappy restriction still of rear hatch) they become usable. Nades allows them to poke Dreads in combat. Beast style movement encourages using them on foot too much IMO. Dark Reapers with tank hunters would be nice and drop the EML upgrade. Crack shot/fast shot effects whole unit?

@Cyklown; points drop on DA would be nice but have to compare to Guardians as well. Can't see them going below 7 pts (maybe 6) and an extra couple of points for 6" range, no heavy weapon, WS/BS 4, Sv 4+, I5, Ld9? Okay. Rending (like on FW) = nono. Not all basic Troops need to be able to wreck transports and infantry, particularly armies which have excellent transports like Wave Serpents. Nades would be nice though. Without a huge re-vamp though Dire Avengers will basically be DAVU until an edition change.

Chumbalaya said...

FoC swapping is a must.

Easiest way to fix Aspects is to adjust points, increase their flexibility, and roll up exarch skills into simple USRs.

Dragons: melta or flamer free swap, tank hunters
Banshees: assault out of transport, haywires, furious charge
Scorpions: S4 base, fleet, scouts, rending
Avengers: points drop, hit & run
Spears: skilled riders, hit & run, points drop, count as lance in HtH
Spiders: hit & run, 3 shot AP-, rending and difficult/dangerous terrain or swap to 1 S6 AP1 shot.
Hawks: hit & run, S4 guns, enemies need night fight to shoot them (super shiny), assault after deep strike (lol)
Reapers: points drop, EMLs or S6 Reaper Launchers, T4 and FNP, Relentless

Borkai said...

@chumba, I agree with you about a small points reduction and USR for aspect warriors.

Big problem is if your play group conforms to the meta and uses lots of metal boxes. @Kirb, your original ideas of chargin out of a transport for banshees is nice and inline with termies in a LR, but not ever race should have that option. The idea of pistols for the vastly over costed SS is great. A jump pack 6" move after shooting would fix hawks, an 4+ invuln is pretty OP. Reapers moving slow and purposeful might be an answer to moving and shooting?? A dangerous terrain check would be great for Wspiders, plus rending ;).

I wouldn't like to see aspect aspect warrior with WS5, but an across the board points reduction would be sweet. The posibility of another transport vehicle would change the codex dynamics. A vehicle such as the one in the old PDF harlie dex (open topped viper/transport) for say 6 models... This would open up charging from the vehicle for small elite squads and an exarch or ind char?

VT2 said...

Every single one of them needs grenades, or at least grenade-like effects, and an increase in weaponskill or ballisticskill - depending on the aspect.

Scorpions shouldn't get fleet, but be scouts, and always have stealth. They also really need their old strength-4 back, or they will forever suck. Their swords could give rending, or extra damage versus vehicles.

Banshees don't need the ability to assault out of vehicles, but something that makes them faster, and their initial attack hurt a lot more. They're supposed to be a 'counter-assault' element, and not frontline fighters.

Spiders want rending and pinning. They also want more shots, or a points decrease. Making their exarch useful is also a needed change.

Spears.
Wait, what? Oh, the shining spears! It's been so long. Let's see.
Additional attacks for everybody, at least on the charge. If broken, but opponent did no damage to the spears, automatic hit-and-run. Lances need to be AP1 for shooting, so they can hurt vehicles. Yes, hurt - not 'damage,' or 'maybe kill a rhino with some luck.'

Reapers.
Strength-6 reaper missiles. Half the problem is now solved. Boss upgrade lets them shoot at more targets, or lets some replace their standard gun with appropriate heavy weapons. Having the boss could also bestow a ranged version of preferred enemy, or add tank hunters.

Hawks need an invulnerable save, badly. Their guns all need to shoot more, or their cost in points needs to drop dramatically. Rending isn't really necessary, but the boss could add it for a chunk of points. He should also pack a weapon that's very effective against lighter vehicles, and have some abilities that let the squad shoot at armored targets, instantly immobilizing or stunning them in the process.
Guns need to be stronger (4-5), but should retain the AP.
Let them forfeit assaulting for a crisis-styled assault phase jump.

david_padwick said...

My ideas:

Scorpions - S4 basic as others said (so exarch is S8 with claw) + fleet (the dark eldar incubi have it in the new codex so why not?)

Banshees - furious charge skill for exarch

Dire Avengers - reduce to 10pts, otherwise fine

Warp spiders - rending like night spinner, reduce to 18-20 pts, enemy take difficult terrain test if hit (not dangerous like night spinner)

Shining spears - more attacks, grenades

Fire dragons - Flamer options

Swooping hawks - 16-18 pts or higher strength guns/rending

Dark Reapers - 25-30pts, eldar missile launchers instead of reaper launchers, maybe slow and purposeful?

Autarchs - give them options for autarch warrior powers (maybe the path of command so more army buff orientated)

Phoenix Lords - makes their aspect troops, points decrease, invulnerable saves!
make 0-1 if making their aspect troops

Also give the wave serpent some kind of assault ramp upgrade option!!

kidneykim said...

Wait i thought scorpion chain swords made them strength 4 i still have the 4th ed codex (i dont have 5th because my first army was dark eldar and they got better so i went to them) so did they change that

Kirby said...

They aren't base S4, the Chainsword makes them S4 so the Scorpion Claw ends up being S6 rather than S8.

The_King_Elessar said...

There IS no 5e Eldar Codex. :P

Also, yep, base S3, so Chainsabres are rubbish.

Brawl97 said...

i know i said that i havent seen them in forever so i didnt know if a new codex came out either

Brenton said...

Dragons: Only change I would like to see is the ability to swap the Fusion gun for a Flamer at no points cost if we can't turn the Warp Spiders into the Eldar flamer unit.

Banshees: Assault out of transport and a Dodge invuln. save like Wyches get.

Scorpions: I've always thought they should use poisoned weapons instead of being the 'bulky' Eldar troopers. More variety of various combat weapons without power weapon options to show that Banshees crack armor, Scorpions crack grunts.

Avengers: Fine as they are. My only complaint is more of a general army-wide one as I think the day of the 12" shuriken catapult (18 for DA) is done with, especially since Dark Eldar use the same tech just with poison crystals instead of Gonna Cutcha Craftworld tech. Make all Eldar Shuriken Cat's range increase by 6".

Spears: Steal from the Dark Eldar codex, make them work like Reavers. Instead of getting stuck into combat, rush them around the field doing Lancer attacks to one unit they cross like the Reavers but much more deadly thanks to higher Strength and Power weapons (balanced by incredibly small overall unit sizes and high point costs). Instead of Hit and Run for the Exarch, give him the ability to Pinpoint a certain target to spear with his Star Lance.

Spiders: Turn these guys into a mobile flamer unit with Eldar flavoring. Instead of a teardrop, drop small blast markers for each Spider to represent the monofilament cloud. Keep the high strength with little to no AP to represent that basically you are relying on the armor to save your arse. Let the Exarch's gun drop a larger template.

Hawks: Give them all Hawk's Talons instead of Lasblasters at a reduced strength (4 instead of 5 would be my starting point.), beef up the Sunrifle to S5/AP5/Assault3 for the Exarch or a 'for every three/four models, you may upgrade'.

Reapers: Keep the points costly, change the Reaper launcher. Give them two modes of fire, an anti-infantry version which follows the Temepst Launcher model or the 'generic' Reaper Launcher, and a heavier one-shot ability that is more in line with the Missle Launcher. Make the Exarch's cannon the same but slightly better in the STR and/or AP department.

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