Kirb your enthusiasm!


"Pink isn't a color. It's a lifestyle." - Chumbalaya
"...generalship should be informing list building." - Sir Biscuit
"I buy models with my excess money" - Valkyrie whilst a waitress leans over him

Sunday, July 4, 2010

Email in: Take a quick look at my army list? [Blood Angels]

"You can clearly see that I've taken a look at your BA Jumper 2k list... as well as a few others. I like the idea of the rifleman but I also like the vanguard veterans. The reason I do not include them is that I'm unsure how well they will work in practice. How often do they scatter out of assault range or have a deep strike mishap when used correctly?

I've read Stelek's list as well, it looks great and makes sense to me but I've looked into getting twelve missile launchers and well had nightmares about that. I like having Sanguinary Priests anyway, and with the recent clarification to furious charge in the FAQ I find it hard to eliminate them.Blood Angels 2k list:

I'm just starting out in the hobby, starting to model the first of my ASM squads now. I've visited my local shops more than a few times now and seen quite a few BA players most of which playing terrible lists or running mechanized armies. Just keep in mind I'm wanting to stay in the jump marine spirit. All that being said, is this list a bit cheesy or spammy for a local club or casual play?

Thanks for your time, and for your blog. It's more than helpful in helping with the stiff learning curve this game seems to have. Not to mention being enjoyable.

Blood Angels 2k list:

Librarian w/ JP: 125
Librarian w/ JP: 125

Honor Guard 3x SS&Meltagun: 270
Honor Guard 3x SS&Meltagun: 270

Two Sang Priests w/JP: 150

ASM x10, 2 Melta, PF: 235
ASM x10, 2 Melta, PF: 235
ASM x10, 2 Melta, PF: 235
ASM x10, 2 Flamer, Hand Flamer, PF: 235

Dreadnought w/ Dual TLAC (Rifleman): 120
I just noticed that that blog post was 2 months ago. I hope your not tired of BA lists getting sent your way. ^.^

-Justin aka: Jt3n"

Hey Justin, glad you're getting into 40k and finding the blog useful (changed the order of your email around as well for formatting). VV haven't failed me yet in my Jumper armies when I've really needed them but they aren't always going to land where you want them or when you want them as you stated or mishap, etc. Taking 2-3 squads though should protect you from this the majority of the time though. Pure Jumper marines can work fine and if you were leaning away from the VV side of things for BA I'd recommend the Devs (though I prefer the VV styled army). Being able to split fire to 6 different targets and having S8 compared to the S7 of rifleman Dreads fits the theme and gives you better fire saturation which can cause instant-death (the Rifledreads arealso a lot easier to shut down in a non-mech field compared to 30ish marines w/FNP).

If you wanted to go this route check out this post here (list at bottom). There are places you can get cheap Missile Launchers (bitz sites or trades work) as a lot of Marine players have leftovers lying around. I prob have 6 or 7 ML Marines for example to use when needed. Whilst you can use 3 Riflemen Dreadnoughts whilst you're building up to your 3x Dev squads, the Dev Squads are a better choice if you're going the fire support route. If you don't want to go that route though VV are the answer though and you certainly don't need 4 ASM squads. 3 is fine @ 2000 pts. So with your list if you were looking to go for fire support drop one ASM squad (the flamer one) and replace with 2 Riflemen Dreadnoughts or drop one ASM, the Dreadnought & a HG squad to add 3x10 w/4ML Devs + SP on foot (previous link has a list like this). If you wanted to go the VV route, drop the flamer ASM, dreadnought and SS on the HG for 2-3x VV w/JPs and as many SS as you can fit on them.

If you want more specific lists let me know which direction you want to go.

8 pinkments:

Sepharine said...

I want to weigh in on a specific question asked her about VV deployment. Assuming you run 5 (which I believe is the norm?) you have an advantage in the fact that you can expand your deepstrike ring forward or backward and don't have to do both. This means that after you place your initial model and roll for scatter, you can join the other 4 models to the original and essentially make 2 'ranks'.

What this means is that that aslong as the original model you place doesn't end up on within 1" of an enemy, you're good (unless you're deepstriking into a V formation). It also means that if your original model scatters outside of charge range, you can build your second rank to the front and potentially still get a charge. Because a base is 25 mm (just under an inch) you would still be able to assault if your first model was placed 6,98" away from the target unit. That said, no one can measure 1/50th of an inch so we'll make that 7".

So what does this mean? it means you want your initial model to end up atleast 1" away from the enemy and no more than 7" away. Ofcourse, your first model isn't a dot, its on a 1" base itself. so you want the front of the base no closer than 1" and the back no further than 8". This means you should aim to put the front of the first model's base down 4" away from the target unit (assuming you find getting destroyed as bad as not getting the charge).

Now for your question, how often does it go wrong? Well, 1/3 of your scatter die will result in a hit which is easy and safe. Of the remaining the remaining 2/3 that does scatter, half will roll between 1 and 3 which isn't enough to be removed from killzone. That means 1/3 of scatters could go wrong depending on which direction you go.


As a rough guideline, you can scatter up to 3" if you scatter directly into your target (north) or directly away from it (south), 4,24" if you scatter into your target at a 45 degree angle (North east or north west) or away at the same angle (South east or South west. Finally, you can scatter a full 6" if you scatter sideways (directly east or west) aslong as your aren't chasing a single infantry based model.
This means means that you will only fail to charge 2/48 + 4/48 + 2/48 + 4/48 + 2/48 *2/3 = 25% chance not to get the charge. It's not exact but it's close enough to give you an idea, the proper math requires pictures and such.

So in conclusion, VV have a 75" chance to get their charge on the drop if you play them 'risky'. It's important to always deepstrike in the center of any clearing. It's also important to remember that the center is 1" further away from enemy models than you might expect. It's also important to keep deepstrike footprints in mind, you should always use squads of 5 models or of 8 models or more. If you don't you'll create full 'rings' which is bad for your odds of getting in safely.

Jt3n said...

I'm starting to finally understand why the VV is an attractive option. I've have not been shown the edge of having a 5 man dropped squad. I've always thought that someone wanted at least an 8 man squad for the extra charge range! I've never thought of the 5 man squad being arranged in the way as in the comment! I've seen some light in the build!

So I'm looking at my list, cutting the dread, the entire flamer squad, and 1 SS/Melta out of each Honor guard gives me 415 points. two VV squads, 5 man with JP, Glaive and SS sergeant is 370. I'd like to add a fist to each but need 5 points. What are some thoughts on how to kit these boys out? I'm really starting to like this idea!

Thanks so much Kirby & Sepharine for the much valued insight!

Chumbalaya said...

Yep, if you go jumpers Vanguard are very useful. I use them as cheap tie down in my Bloodwing since my SG can kill stuff just fine.

Jt3n said...

Alright, I'm decided on Veterans, but wanted to keep the two honor guard squads. This is what I have after some tweaking.

2x Libby w/ JP
2x Honor Guard w/ JP, 2 SS, 3 Melta
2x Priests / JP
3x ASM x10 w/ 2 Melta, PF
1x VV x10 w/ JP, Glaive & SS, and 2 PF/SS

Idea being to combat squad the veteran squad & deep strike the two. I have some lingering thoughts on taking 1 melta out of each honor guard for an extra SS in the veteran squad. Thoughts? Does this work? 54 Jump Infantry, 4 bubbles, and the deep striking veterans?

Kirby said...

That's some nice math, thanks Sepharine.

Split the VV squad. You get a "free" glaive with every squad so might as well use it. I'd swap the SS from the HG to the VV to make the VV your anti-super unit units but otherwise looks solid Jt3n.

Anonymous said...

Actually it's not free...
You pay 20 points per model, +15 for the glaive.
so 115 points for the 5 man squad (+ jump pack).

Luke said...

That is why he had the "" marks. It is the only way to get a glaive in a VV squad thou.

Duke of Earl said...

A power weapon is superior to a glaive encarmine, so why ever take the glaive?

2 attacks with re-roll to hit on one dice isn't as good as rolling 3 dice in the first place.


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