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"Pink isn't a color. It's a lifestyle." - Chumbalaya
"...generalship should be informing list building." - Sir Biscuit
"I buy models with my excess money" - Valkyrie whilst a waitress leans over him

Friday, July 16, 2010

Kirby's thoughts on Fantasy [8th]: Part 2

Well I've read all the rules at least once now and am looking a bit more specifically at High Elves so I'll be further my initial thoughts on what Fantasy is like and the differences to 5th edition 40k whilst also highlighting some things about High Elves. This will be so amazing for all of you as it shows my logic of learning a gaming system and choosing an army without any prior knowledge and I hope might be helpful for a lot of people who pick up either system or a new army. So terrain is a lot more in-depth and interactive in Fantasy than 40k, and I mean a lot more and it is also a lot more 'clear' (though 25% is pretty damn clear) on how much terrain should be out there. This can make for some one-sided battles perhaps for armies like Wood Elves which I assume excel in heavily terrained (new word) battles. Cover also works a lot differently from 40k where negative To Hit modifiers are applied to shooting. Whilst this might seem like shooting isn't that reliable, from what I can garner if you appropriately use small units to block charges and get a lot of long-ranged shooting backed up by Magic & War Machines, shooting can still be very potent but really needs screening IMO and with panic bubble effects, this can make your whole army flee. Not good.

War Machines also seem to have a huge capacity to deal damage but their high T isn't always the best defense since everything can wound it (unlike in 40k where T8 laughs at most things, especially in combat) and using crew armor saves (which generally seem light). Their best defense therefore seems to be range as Fantasy seems a lot more close and anti-personnel in terms of ranges. Also mentioned above were the differences to Morale which is really painful for units under 25%. A unit breaking can cause units around it to flee as well and once a unit is under 25%, it's hard to get them to come back to the fight. Ranks are very important for steadfast and Generals for their ld bubble as well as having good Ld across the army.

This brings me (somehow) to the level of strength employed in Fantasy armies. S4 is good and strengths like 6+ are very good (hi great weapons!). This is a lot different to 40k where S4-6 are often the mainstay weapons of an army whilst S7+ is where the real perssure is brought. The main reason for this is the modifiers on armor saves (S4 = -1 to armor save). I  haven't read the missions in-depth yet but they also seem very 'standard' but this could just be my skimming of them so far but with the rapid charge ability of calvary and even infantry, I imagine they will focus on midfield or defending against it whilst still crushing face...

Whilst I still don't have a solid grasp of the special rules, the basic rules seem akin in depth and understanding as 40k but when you go beyond that...well Fantasy becomes a lot more in-depth and I think that's a tick in its favor and against. It's a lot of reading but seems to be rewarding enough to finish it and being an avid reader, finding it tough going at times might bode poorly for others who don't like reading. I also recall Warhammer highlighted a lot as herohammer from previous editions (one of the main criticisms which kept me away) but from the rules I've understood so far, it doesn't seem that way. Whilst heroes certainly have the power to decimate multiple units (specifically magic) I wouldn't call it a reliable tactical (specifically magic) and there seems to be an encouragement towards less mass upgrading and more units. So, let's take a quick peek at my thoughts on High Elves.

I'm choosing Elves because I've always been a fan of Elves in Fantasy, and WFB is no different. I've picked High Elves because I think I'll have an easier time painting them and they rock at magic (both big +'s for me). Let's take a look at my first impressions of them rules-wise. Always strike first. With re-rolls. And Great Weapons. Do I need to say anything else? These rules to me just make some of their Core choices awesome backed up by already excellent magical variety & defenses. Elves don't seem to have much staying power however and if built around combat need to hit hard and fast whilst if going for shooting or magic, as I stated earlier I think lots of smaller units as screens is a good idea but mass panic is a worry. Elves also seem to be able to control the pace of the game being very quick in terms of movement through their Special choices.

So again to you Fantasy vets, on the money here (or at least close?) or way off? I'll be reading everything more in-depth and might put up some trial army lists or more imperssions later!

16 pinkments:

Chumbalaya said...

Everything checks out over here, looks like you're on the right path.

I think I may be picking up HE too if I can make a cheap army out of the island of blood dealy. It'll be a nice change of pace playing a "good" army after Skaven and Daemons.

Chorne said...

Pretty close actually. Magic is very much a wild card in this edition. It can single handedly win a game for you or be fickle and giving it too much emphasis could result in failure.
Do not overlook Sea Guard in your elf lists... Spears + Bows and Arrows. It can be a devastating combination as you can shoot AND accept a charge well. HE Magic is very strong as you mentioned.

Ishamael said...

We're foes now, Kirby! Foes! Pansy elf-playing weakling, I'm going to call you Drizzt from now on. :P

Looks like you have the HE concept in hand. Buddy of mine wants to get into Fantasy when the Island comes out, and he'll be playing Elves too. And I'll have to grit my teeth at all the magic coming my way, but hopefully my Dwarves will be able to weather it.

Kirby said...

Good to know my brain works for other things outside of stats & 40k.

@Ishamael; woot enemies! Not a fan of the Dwarf range I'm afraid :(, otherwise Dwarves would be top of my list of "nexts" lol. Lizardmen and Tomb Kings look cool though.

Can anyone give me a run down on age of the books? i.e. what can expect an update soon, etc. I don't want to look for dates (yes I'm lazy!)>

The_King_Elessar said...

AFAIK, the ones who are 'next' in some order are Ogres, TKs, Wood Elves, Brets, Dwarves, O&G. You know when Daemons came out, lol - and DE, Skaven, Beastmen and Lizards are other recent(ish) ones. I don't think Empire are very close to an update, or HE.

AbusePuppy said...

Rough age of books:

"New": Beastmen, Skaven, Dark Elves, Lizardmen, Daemons, Vampire Counts
(Of these, VC are debatably the only sub-par army.)

"Old": High Elves, Bretonnia, Orks and Goblins, Wood Elves, Ogre Kingdoms, Dwarves, Tomb Kings
(HE are perhaps the most well-adapted and recent of these books; WE are also pretty fair. Most of the rest of them are fairly bad and have been for a while. Mercenaries are no longer a supported army, but still technically exist I believe.)

I know I'm forgetting someone, or possibly several someones.

AbusePuppy said...

Oh, and gratz on getting onto the BoLS blogroll... I think.

k.Blas said...

Ogre's and TK are the ones everybody says are going to get updates first. The flip-flop back and forth, and depends on who you talk to, though I believe its going to be Ogre Kingdoms (then again I'm partial biased).

Oh and the FAQ deleted all entries of "Dogs of War" from our Army Book if that's what you were talking about AbusePuppy.

Kirby said...

Tomb Kings just look cool :P,so it they get updated my pocket book might take a hit :(.

And ya for BoLS blogroll :S lol, need to spread the word of good tactics and they have a large readerbase.

Roland Durendal said...

ugh reading this makes me want to start into Fantasy. I dabbled way back in 3rd-4th ed, but never got serious.

Now I want to start up Wood Elves or my Crusade themed Empire army....any idea when either of those 2 books will be revamped?

Chumbalaya said...

Neither will be any time soon. Of the 2, empire has a lot more going for it. WE are just too limited.

Junx said...

Wood Elves are basically roasted if you ask me... The new skirmisher rules mean we no longer get 360 charge arc for most of our units, and in addition to that, all forests are now "Mysterious", which means that you have a 1/3 chance of the forest potentially killing your units before you can even start shooting someone!!!

Junx said...

@Kirby : Yes.. Tomb Kings are really nice( I own an army as well) .. I suggest for background, you read the Nagash series of the Legends line of the Black Library novels. Especially "Nagash the Sorcerer". There are really nice references to the culture of the Tomb Kings BEFORE they became an undead army.

Really cool stuff...

Roland Durendal said...

Damn that sucks that 8th ED hurts the Woodies so much. I've been a huge fan since 3/4ed when they had like the PDF army book. I guess I'll have to go with my Crusader / Middenheim Empire army. Just need to figure out how to make it awesome-sauce.

I figure lots of Warrior Priests, Greatswords, White Wolf cav, and flagellants. Now just need a solid core to back it up and I'll be set.

Von said...

Your Elf analysis is pretty much spot on; they really rely on decent S, high I and weight of attacks to survive in combat, because anything that can hit them will squash them flat.

I also second Chrone's recommendation of Sea Guard - a unit in which three ranks can contribute something in every turn is not to be sneezed at (makes my poor Dark Elf Crossbowmen very jealous).

Chumbalaya said...

Roland, that sounds like a very doable list. All you'd need is core stuff, which your Flaggies will be if you bring a Warrior Priest. Swordsmen are good defensively with those shields, spears are cheap and frail with a crazy number of attacks, and halberds are even more fragile (probably best as detachments) in exchange for S4.

Empire Knights are good grinder units, as are Greatswords, so you'd just need steadfast blocks of swordsmen to hold stuff in place.

Don't skimp on the shooty, Empire do it quite well now.

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