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Saturday, August 28, 2010

Email in: Effort at competitive Orks (aka futility)


"Hey Kirbmeister

First up, you may be sick of hearing this but it has to be said, 3++ is an excellent blog and you and everyone else's hard work really shows off. It's really refreshing to see such a break from the ordinary drivel coming from yonder online community, and without the unfortunate e-drama that plagues YTTH.

Preface over, a young friend of mine is a keen fan of Orks, yet is clearly desperate to play his game at a higher standard. Being an uncommunicative preteen in an environment at odds with competitive play (more out of naivete and fear than the pompous bile you'll hear at Warseer and the like) has rendered his own efforts ineffective, so I've offered to give him a hand. Trouble is, the lists I have proposed (Thunderwolf Cav, Fast'n'Slow and BA Razorflame in depth) don't rub him right - he wants Orks! While I am making progress persuading him of why the army's inherent lack of suppression fire, minor price issues and occasional over-reliance on gimmicks make it uncompetitive, I did come up with two lists for him to try out. I'm confident that they are better than his usual green tide, but out of personal curiosity I would like you to give it a thought. Maybe you can explain the problems with them clearer than I can?

List A: 1500pts

2x Warboss
Mega Armour

3x 12 Lootaz

2x 5 Meganobz
+ Trukk
Grot Riggers



2x 2 Warbuggiez
2 Rokkit Launchaz

Warbuggy
Rokkit Launcha

3x Looted Wagon 35pts

Warboss in Meganobz drive forward, Lootaz use Wagonz as pillboxes, Buggies do whatever.

List B: 2500pts

2x Warboss
Mega Armour
Attack Squig
Bosspole


3x 13 Lootaz

2x 9 Meganobz
Kombi-Rokkit
+ Battlewagon
Deff Rolla
Grot Riggers
Extra Armour
Rokkit Launcha

3x 3 Warbuggiez
3 Rokkit Launchaz

3x Battlewagon
3 Rokkit Launchaz

Same, but with Battlewagonz as the transports.

My thoughts are, the first list is too frail and relies too much on the Meganobz successfully assaulting multiple units, while the latter has both over reliance on Meganobz and slowness due to Battlewagonz - but you da man Kirby.

Kind regards,

Lord Zorgatron"

I don't think I'll ever tire of hearing that :P. Glad you like it. Onto the lists, first issue is dropping the Lootas into the transports to shoot. Whilst it offers you some protection, all your opponent needs is a shake and that's a lot of firepower not coming at them. For that reason I'd do something else with the points in list 1. At 1500 10 meganobz is a pretty solid Troop and you've got decent anti-armor with 5 buggies + 36 lootas but those battlewagons are going to be taking fire often and early. You cold run the Wagons as screens for the BW but if they will delay your BW. You can't take a KFF Mek unless you want to drop to one Meganobz as Troops and take some Boyz and otherwise you're not going to be able to protect your BW which is bad.

The 2nd list is a better better with saturation for the BW but again, you're not getting much cover for them and the Lootas aren't shooting once their BW are shaken. Whilst it's a lot harder for your opponent to shake 3 BW and stop 2, at 2500 points armies will have the firepower for that.

I think both lists benefit greatly from a KFF Mek. Whilst you lose some Troop Meganobz and a 4+ is beatable across your tanks (and blockable) it gives you some reliability in your Wagon's survivability. The problem with this obviously is the Meganobz become an obvious target but not much you can do about that I'm afraid. With the extra points you can prob grab a bunch of Boyz and stick them in the Wagons to provide some support to the Nobz but you still don't over come the issue of most armies being able to out-combat you (Meganobz still hate Terminators).

20 pinkments:

fester said...

As a long time Ork player ... one of the nicest things about the army is the, well, orky nature of it.

Can I suggest (and here I go giving away another army idea), doing a SM all-biker list, and proxying up models for it - I would suggest (no, not Ork bikers :P) Boar Boyz. Do a Snakebite themed SM Biker army around Boar Boys, Goblin wolf riders (scout bikers!), etc.

If your friend want to be "competitive", the best thing you can probably do with orks right now is do a counts-as list. I think its bushidoredpanda has a Looted IG List he runs with Orks that looks like a riot.
If you want to run with the Ork Codex, there is really only 1 feasible option - pick a theme, run with it, and enjoy it. In 90% of tourneys, a list that will get marked as "uncompetitive" by the 3++/YTTH crew (for good reason!) will do reasonably well, as long as the person running it has experience with the list.

For instance:
http://fester40k.blogspot.com/2010/07/ah-huh-qm3-decision-made.html
This was the list I took to (i think) the 2nd biggest RTT in my state (qld, australia).
Lets rate the competitveness ... ...
Antitank: PowerFists
Mobility: Run != Mobility
Reliability: A little
Rock Unit: Err... No.
Horde: Not even!
I places 8/54, with only 3 games practice. Why? I know how Orks work. I also know how to target priority. (I also know how to roll 4+ cover saves and 5+ INV saves). I would have ranked higher if a single SS TWC Lord didnt survive 6 rounds of combat with 1 dread & 2 kans!

Anyway, with Orks, doing a "competitive list" is kind of Mission Impossible© but, the fact the army is FUN to play with (and against) makes up for it 10-fold...
Also, you get to yell WAAAAGH at inopportune moments in a tournament and get away with it :)

fester said...

Oh, and in that event I faced:
Grey Knights, Chaos (khorney), BA generic, BA AV13 spam, SW Grey Hunters + TWC.

ben said...

Haha hi Fester, that SW grey hunters and TWC was me! :)

and go go Wolf lord Skold and his thunder wolf Fluffy!! I just wish you hadn't stolen the initiative, that ruined my plans. :(

fester said...

Yeah, it certainly helped me out. As it was I had the uphill battle :)

I will be trying to get to a QM next year :)
You should come up to CENTURION(my I'll be TO'ing) or Cowcon(the local RTT). Your list would do REALLY well up here - not that you didnt do well @ QM :)

Rawr said...

Yea I was considering coming up actually, just need to see if i can get the time off and get some of the other guys from my local club to come up with me!

But again I had tonnes of fun vs'ing you, that was my 2nd tournament ever and I came 12th so I think I did pretty well...

I will defiantly keep an eye out and see if I cant come on up, cause it sounds like a lot of fun. (yea the names changed from ben to Rawr... apparently I wasn't signed in properly or my profile was funky or something)

fester said...

That would be sweet. Come to CENTURION in March. Kirby will be keeping on top of all the news for me.

I want it to go off with a huge BANG and show up all the local fluff bunnies and their "must be comp" ways :)

If we are lucky, we might get to meet a wild Kirby in it's natural habitat!

Lord Zorgatron said...

Fester, the 'Biker Marines as Boar Boyz' suggestion might just do the trick. Our store does frown on proxies, but I get away with using my Night Lords as Blood Angels so I think I'll be able to persuade my friend to try it. Cheers :)

fester said...

The bonus is, when they finally come out an release a real competitive dex for us Orky types, you will have almost a full Ork biker army ready to roll :)

Lord Zorgatron said...

Ah, my friend will at least. I like teh fun side of orks, but I don't play them much and only with other people's minis; really I'm a Chaos man. Not that either Chaos codex helps, I'll just use BA/SW rules until GW releases our real competitive dex :P

Kirby said...

I could read all of this but decided being drunk and responding to "natural habitat" is the only response needed :P.

VT2 said...

Competitive orks? I don't think it can truly be done, but let's see.

Warboos: cybork body, powerklaw, attacksquig - 110
Warboos: cybork body, powerklaw, attacksquig - 110

12 lootas - 180
12 lootas - 180
12 lootas - 180

10 gretchin: runtherd - 40
10 gretchin: runtherd - 40
10 gretchin: runtherd - 40
10 gretchin: runtherd - 40
4 nobz: painboy, kombi-skorcha, powerklaw, stikkbombz, cybork bodies, big choppa, bosspole, battlewagon transport: death rolla, red paint job, 2 big shootas - 309
4 nobz: painboy, kombi-skorcha, powerklaw, stikkbombz, cybork bodies, big choppa, bosspole, battlewagon transport: death rolla, red paint job, 2 big shootas - 309

2 buggies: linked rokkits - 70
2 buggies: linked rokkits - 70
2 buggies: linked rokkits - 70

2 kans: rokkits - 100
2 kans: rokkits - 100
1 kan: rokkit - 50

-

Obviously, it arrives in two waves. Warbosses go with nobz, and split from the unit once they reach the opponent. Four nobz destroy most squads really quickly, as do solo warbosses. If the target holds, all the better for you, since that means you're not gonna get shot up in the opponent's turn, but can finisn the target in his assault phase.

While that's going on, you bubble your lootas with gretchin, and station the solo kan nearby for the first turn.
Lootas, buggies, and the two twin kan squads dismount the opponent to the best of their abilities, and after that, annoy the opponent. Kans of course assault as soon as they can.

Will it work? Sometimes.
Depends on what your opponent brings. Basically, it's a whole lot of support, trying to open up enough enemy vehicles to give your nobz, kans, and warbosses something to assault.

If that fails, he's still gonna have to go hunting for your support units - most of which are covered by enough gretchina to give them another turn of shooting.

Chumbalaya said...

Looted Wagons go stupid and without weapons they'll be wrecked in short order.

Best way I can think of running Orks is either Wazdakka+Bikers, Battlewagons or MSU shooty.

VT2 said...

MSU shooty is also bad, because it requires ork boyz.

lehcyfer said...

I've been planning lately to build this version of Battlewagons:

HQ:
(120) Warboss (power klaw, shoota/skorcha kombi weapon, attack squig, cybork body, bosspole)
(120) Big Mek (burna, kustom force field, cybork body, bosspole)

ELITE:
(295) 5 Nobz (power klaw, 3 big choppas, shoota/skorcha, Waaagh! banner, Painboy), Battlewagon (rokkit launcha, boarding plank)
(120) 8 Lootas
(120) 8 Lootas

TROOPS:
(295) 5 Nobz (power klaw, 3 big choppas, shoota/skorcha, Waaagh! banner, Painboy), Battlewagon (rokkit launcha, boarding plank)
(170) 20 Shoota Boyz (2 big shootas, Nob, power klaw, bosspole)
(170) 20 Shoota Boyz (2 big shootas, Nob, power klaw, bosspole)
(170) 20 Shoota Boyz (2 big shootas, Nob, power klaw, bosspole)

FAST ATTACK:
(35) Warbuggy (twin-linked rokkits)
(35) Warbuggy (twin-linked rokkits)
(35) Warbuggy (twin-linked rokkits)

HEAVY SUPPORT:
(105) Battlewagon (rokkit launcha, boarding plank)
(105) Battlewagon (rokkit launcha, boarding plank)
(105) Battlewagon (rokkit launcha, boarding plank)

TOTAL: 2000 Pts

Rokkit fire from BW's and warbuggies pop transports - then boyz mobz shot them - then nobz accompanied by warboss and mek clean up stubborn leftovers - flame twice before assault, benefit from FNP and so on.
Warbuggies give additional cover to BW's (Polish ruling states that vehicles obscured by KFF get 5+ cover save)

VT2 said...

Not enough buggies and lootas to make it work.
The main problem with battlewagon rush is the wagonz themselves. Even if you convert one from a suitable model (land raider) it's still a million miles long, so your armor 14 front pretty much has no purpose.

Don't put expensive guns on the wagons. Red paint, rolla, and a big shoota or two are all you need, since it's gonna move as fast as possible every turn - not stopping to shoot at stuff.

lehcyfer said...

This army is not charging at the enemy blindly. It's not gonna move as fast as possible every turn - except the first maybe - the BW's are here to transport shoota boyz and be their firing platform. I'm not going to ram either except for some odd occurences when enemy exposed himself unthinkingly.

Some weapon on BW is mandatory to avoid being immobilized too easily. The cheapest is 5pt big shoota. But just for 5pt more you can buy rokkit launcha which gives some antiarmor capability - 5 rokkits combined have a fair chance to pop a transport each turn which allows the boyz to torrent it with lead.

It's not 100% certain army, but it's still quite good combo considered the inherent ork's weaknesses.

As for side shots at BW's there is nice trick to it - put them one side to another in line on flank and maintain the line while moving - there's only side shot to the first one in the row - the next ones have their sides completely obscured and only fronts are visible - then, as the rulebook writes on p. 62, the enemy shooting from the side have to shoot at the front and there's 3+ cover save.

The rokkits are simply orks standing in the top hatches - so there is no turrets - one BW covers the sides of the rest, and is itself in cover from buggies. It's not fireproof method but with some ingenuity you can make it work most of the time.

I could shave 25 points somewhere to give red paint job to all BW's - to get more flexibility in their movement.

fester said...

lehcyfer:
get the 25 points you need by pulling all the unneeded crap off the Mek.
Burna, Bosspole should just about do it.
As an 85pt force multiplier, you dont ever want him getting close and personal.

lehcyfer said...

I could do that, but he rides with nobz and I gave their bosspole to him - just as I gave the bosspole of the other nobz to the warboss, so there's only 20pts from burna to gain.

In Poland KFF is not such a big deal - it gives 5+ to everything - the vehicles too :( So I've decided that if mek makes it to the other side there's no point in shaking about his survival, and burna is quite nice as either flamer or power weapon - to choose depending on the opponent armour. That's why I'm reluctant to drop it.

I could downsize rokkits to big shootas and buy the red paint, but I prefer the antiarmour ability over slightly better mobility.

The thing is this army was tweaked so much there's not much left to tweak - I could drop the waaagh! banners but it doesn't appeal to me...

Kirby said...

Poland breaks the rules o.O? Obscured is clearly defined as a 4+ save >.<.

lehcyfer said...

I know, but the Polish judges made FAQ where it's specifically written that KFF gives 5+ saves to the vehicles :( So KFF is quite a bit weaker here.

Also Polish forests give 5+ save :P I guess they are really sparse...

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