This is a reply by Nathan in AbusePuppy's analysis of Orks post. It's a long post if you missed it. Nathan is using this report as an example of Orks being able to deal with mech (one of this blog's primary arguments against Orks as top-notch competitive). Let's just be clear here, Orks aren't terribad but against the top-notch armies they do suffer somewhat against mech and find it harder to recover when things go south. This isn't to say Orks cannot win or do well but they are at a disadvantage. So the reason for this post is it's difficult to reply in the comments section to specific points made in the bat-rep and I think they need to be highlighted. This isn't to say Nathan or willydstyle are bad gamers but to look at the points made more objectively. My comments in blue (if you haven't figured it out yet). This is also a bit difficult without pictures :(.
Here's a bat report against willydstyle who posts on YTTH. I played him this weekend. Its part of a ginormous bat rep I wrote up for Blood of Kittens.
"Anyway, met up with willydstyle who had indicated a desire to get a game in with me. word on Ordo is that willy is a stellar general who epitomizes all that is good in the "competitive" community. Was looking forward to this game!
Here's his list:
Inquisitor Murdur and Steel Legion company 1864
70 Primaris Psyker
90 CCS 4x Melta Guns
65 Chimera w/ multilaser, heavy stubber, hull heavy flamer
145 Vets w/ 3x plasma guns, demolitions
65 Chimera w/ multilaser, heavy stubber, hull heavy flamer
145 Vets w/ 3x plasma, demolitions
65 Chimera w/ multilaser, heavy stubber, hull heavy flamer
50 Platoon Command Squad w/ 4x grenade launcher
55 Chimera w/ multilaser, hull heavy flamer
70 Platoon Infantry Squad w/ missile launcher, grenade launcher
65 Chimera w/ multilaser, hull heavy bolter, heavy stubber
70 Platoon Infantry Squad w/ missile launcher, grenade launcher
65 Chimera w/ multilaser, hull heavy bolter, heavy stubber
160 Manticore
160 Manticore
225 3x Hydra flak tank
140 Devil Dog w/ smoke launcher, hull multi-melta
140 Devil Dog w/ smoke launcher, hull multi-melta
150 2x plasma cannon armored sentinels
Looks potent to me! As Puppy pointed out in the comments, not really. It's solid but not fantastic.
Here's Nathan's 1850 list and from what he's said I believe he simply adds Snikrot.
Big Mek with Kustom Force Field
15 Lootas
30 shoota boyz with 3 rokkits and a Nob with power klaw
30 shoota boyz with 3 rokkits and a Nob with power klaw
12 slugga boyz wtih Nob with power klaw, boss pole, in a trukk with reinforced ram
12 slugga boyz wtih Nob with power klaw, boss pole, in a trukk with reinforced ram
10 Gretchin and their minder
15 Stormboyz with Nob with power klaw and boss pole
2 Rokkit Buggies
1 Battlewagon with killkannon, 3 big shootas, reinforced ram, and ‘ard case.
3 Killa Kans with rokkits
3 Lobbas with 2 ammo runts
We rolled up mission/deployment and got Spearhead/Annihilation. Kill points is probably the best mission for me as all those Chimera chassis are easier to net than most of my KPs.
willy won the first roll and elected to go first to try and damage the crap outta me. good move. He took a quarter with good area terrain (probably to deny it to me) and with good LoS to the other quarter. He deployed two of his infantry platoons on the edges of the table in order to deny me Snikrot charges on his artillery units. He put his empty Chimeras near his long table edge and as far to the center as possible. It's spearhead and he outshoot and outranges you. There should be very little deployed towards the center of the board [particularly with KP] and should have jammed tanks against the short board edge and then wrapped with his combined platoon. He put his armored sentinels near his short table edge as near the center as possible. Near them heading towards the center of his forces was the Company Command Squad and Chimera then the Devil Dogs. Again, why is so much deployed centrally. One unit to push you back and some infantry to slow your advance was all that was needed. Over by the empty chimeras was the Platoon Command Squad and Pskyer. The Hydras were in the middle and the Manticores behind them. He left his two vet squads in reserve.
I did my standard leave buggies, trukk boyz, stormboyz, and Snikrot in reserve; as well as the gretchin, who had no purpose inside the battlewagon and who should just stay out of the way! I put my Battlewagon mostly in the middle with the big mobz flanking it and the kans in front of it. You limited your Battlewagons movement by putting Kanz in front of it why? Self-blocking does your opponent's job for him. I had my lobbas up close in cover (I screwed up and didn't realize there was a door in the ruins allowing willy to see them) and put my lootas in, more or less, the backfield of my deployment zone and in a ruin with good line of sight. Were they in the back corner or back middle? If back corner willy should of barely been bothered by them due to range differentials from corner to corner.
I tried to steal the initiative so I could do some damage with the lootas, but failed.
willy started out by moving a little on my right flank with the armored sentinels and CCS and devil dogs. As well, he moved up with his PCS and Psyker. He unloaded the hydras at the lootas who went to ground and lost a few guys. Then he blew up my battlewagon with a manticore shot. The PCS and Pskyer killed the lobbas, and the rest of his shooting did little. He was up 0 KP to 2.
My first turn I ambled forward at the elements of willy's army that had moved up. I took some shots, nothing worked. Still down 0 KP to 2
willy failed to get his reserves in, but started shooting me more. His hydras shot the lootas again, who went to ground again, but lost enough models and ran away. No idea what the Lootas are at atm but 12 S7 TL'd shots should of gone into the Kanz whilst throwing some multi-laser and missile launcher blasts at the Lootas. He shot at the killa kans with the devil dogs and manticores, killing one and shaking another. The PCS and other units took shots at the big mob heading up my upper left flank at his PCS squad; they killed a few boyz, but there were still enough to be fearless. 0 KP to 3.
I got Snikrot, the buggiesthe stormboyz, and a trukk in from reserve. The grots came in as well and I moved them into cover to hide. I move Snikrot and his boyz to set up a combo charge against infantry and the two Chimeras on willy's long table edge. Which is bad. Snikrot should of only been able to charge a single infantry squad or Chimera so poor deployment there. I moved the trukk boyz up and disembarked, hoping for a good waagh roll to get me into range with his other infantry platoon (which he had moved down the map to further block Snikrot). I moved the stormboyz up to get an assault on the CCS chimera and potentially sandbag with the sentinels. Most of my force was in range to now assault the PCS chimera and the two devil dogs. Bit confusing here to know what is happening without pics but again, why are you able to assault so many units at once? Where is his blocking and delaying or why was he moving so close to you with offensive units which out-range you? My shooting killed a sentinel with my buggies and the PCS chimera with the shoota boyz. I got a good Waagh roll for both the trukk boyz and the Kommandos; and I assaulted. I assaulted the PCS squad and the Psyker with the shoota boyz and wiped them out. My kommandos flubbed their attacks on the infantry, but stun locked the two chimeras. My kans immobilized one of the devil dogs as well as stopped it from firing. The other shoota boy squad stunned the other devil dog. The trukk boyz wiped the infantry platoon and spread out. The stormboyz stunned the CCS chimera. You assaulted 8 units. 8. This was bad movement by willy I'm afraid as you should of been assaulting at max, 3 as he either wraps his units or shoves Chimeras in your face. The fact that it's also Turn 2 and you're already massively engaged in Spearhead is...well bad. Spearhead is +1 turn basically for assaults so on Turn 3 you should of been hitting his defensive layers rather than hitting his offensive units on T2. Did the Chimeras move the turn before? Taking out 5 tanks would of been insane if they had and even taking out 5 tanks with auto-hits would be very high. If they didn't move...uh WHY? While I didn't take out all the vehicles like I wanted, I was now in a position to take them out in his turn, as well, since I was next to his alive vehicles, he couldn't put templates on them. 4 KP to 3 KP willy is now on the back foot because of poor movement choices and he can indeed put templates on your guys, he just has to move round to the side to not get his own tanks but since there are so many locked units and stunned tanks...well he's severely limited as you pointed out. By limiting how many assaults you could of made he would have more mobility and offensive firepower still available.
willy got both of his vet squads in and moved them to deal with the shoota boy squad that had taken out his PCS squad and be in a position to take out my kommandos. He used his flamer on his manticore on my trukk boyz as well as the hydras, Hydras should of been shooting @ buggies. 12xS7 > AV 10 open-topped transports. I went to ground and had a Nob left with one wound (passed the morale check)! The other manticore shot at my buggies and trukk, but only killed one buggy and stunned the trukk. His vets lit up my shoota boyz and wiped em. His armored sentinel charged my stormboyz to pull them off the vehicle and the Nob killed the sentinel. My kans blew up the chimera. The Kommandos wiped the infantry platoon and damaged one of the chimeras again. My shoota boyz blew up the other devil dog and suffered from the explosion. 8 KP to 4 KP
My turn saw the other trukk boyz squad show up and move up to assault the stunned CCS chimera. From your table edge? He was that close to your table edge? Ew. The stormboyz jumped at the hydras to assault them. Again, lack of wrapping. The kans moved up to shoot at whatever they could, the remaining shoota boy squad moved towards the CCS chimera. The kommandos moved to deal with those chimeras up there. My shooting was pretty ineffective. I assaulted. The kommandos turned both chimeras into boxes but didn't kill either. The CCS chimera was blown up. Two of the three hydras were wrecked. It was now 9 KP to 4 KP.
Turn 4 saw willy trying to get the stormboyz with a tank shock and then some shooting from the vet squad's chimeras. They survived and passed morale and were set to take out the manticores, who fired at the shoota boyz to minimal effect. The vet squads took out the kommandos.
I think we called it at this point as it was obvious I was going to win. Overall a good game and I got lucky at critical points to get the win. I'm pretty convinced that Devil Dogs are awful, vendettas would've been cheaper and preferable at that role; but I think he had enough anti tank in general and would've benefitted from two HellHounds instead. Vendettas are a good choice and whilst the list wasn't bad there are certainly ways to improve it. The reason why you won? He moved towards you in Spearhead with an IG list which out-ranged and out-gunned you. By moving into mid-field when he didn't have to seeing as there were no objectives he allowed you to assault a metric ton of his units/tanks and spread shake/stun locking about. This limited his mobility and offensive firepower very, very, very early. Whilst in an objective game you'd of had more advantage by being able to hold any objectives more midfield, with spearhead he should of been sitting on at least two and did have the firepower w/Manticores to remove your cover hugging Troops. Again, the major reason Nathan won was poor deployment, wrapping of tanks and movement. You know when Kanz are assaulting T2 there is a problem.
Thanks again for the game, willydstyle!"
22 pinkments:
I'm calling out for what it is.
The guard list is bad.
No melta veterans. No helicopters. Plasma sentinelts. Super psyker. No autocannons. Chimeras with heavy bolters.
Can we have the ork list used posted as an addendum, please?
Where are the god damn like buttons?
VT2 said almost exactly what was going through my mind.
Especially the part about giving us the ork list please!
Ugh guys really, you want me to wade through over 200 comments to find the Ork army list? I hate you. I really do.
Correct re: IG list. It has bodies and vehicle numbers and good killing power w/most of the tanks but it lacks that extra level of cohesiveness and ability to dominate the board. Still, with 15 tanks, Orks should of had trouble.
I'll go find the list and add it in for you lot.
Added in below the IG list.
Yeah. From what I read, it was some kind of wacky comp-heavy invitation-only tournament, so it's possible that the badness of the list is not wyldstyle's fault, but it's lacking in so many areas it's hard to call it anything but atrocious.
To be fair, it does a number of things right- multiple manticores rather than just one, hull flamers (erm, on some of the units...), mix of Vets and Infantry Platoons. But then it does many, many things wrong, and in ways that can't be accounted for by comp. (Are Autocannons something that comp penalizes? Seriously? And how did Plasma Vets fit in there- they're terrible, but most comp folks thing they're awesome.)
Valkyries aren't an auto-include, but they would solve a lot of problems for this list.
IG player should have been backed into his corner with tanks walling him off, which would keep Snikrot from getting to anything meaningful. Once he arrives, Chims scoot and hit him with mass Heavy Flamers and that's the end of that. The fact that he not only allowed multi-charging in his backfield but ALSO put himself within 24" of the enemy board edge when he knew there were elements in reserve is simply absurd; he lost the game right then and there, pretty much regardless of what the Ork player did. (To his credit, the Orks played reasonably well, but it was largely just a matter of not fucking up so bad that he gave away his easy advantages.)
Purely on a 'takes more good than bad stuff out of what's available'-basis, the ork has a much more potent army, but it's not exactly good, and nowhere near capable of handling real threats.
Let's assume this is some heavily comped, ultra-bad event.
The guard has: two fairly large chunks of bodies, lots of plasma, takes heavy bolters over heavy flamers, plonks down the 'awesomely good and unbalanced' devil dog, and dares bring two units with demolitions. Plasma costs you a lot when it comes to soft scores, as do heavy bolters over heavy flamers.
All of this doesn't excuse the lack of autocannons, complete lack of helicopters, lack of melta veterans, the presence of the super psyker, and the horribad plasma sentinels.
No, you indeed don't lose comp points for autocannons - they're encouraged over heavy bolters, because heavy bolters 'shoot more.'
If this isn't a comped, silly event, the guard player is suffering from a mild case of 'not knowing what he's doing.'
This is more apparent from the way he handles his units on the table, than from the list itself.
The only thing that confuses me is why there's just a single squad of lootas.
What kind of ork player, competitive or otherwise, only brings one loota unit?
Hull-mounted Multimeltas on Devildogs? Really?
Thanks for the swift addition of the ork list.
Things like that will keep a new reader like me coming back.
I am but a slave to the collective will of the Pink Army >.< lol.
Would like to hear from willy and nathan in regards to my thoughts on their bat-rep and why willy did what he did.
@Behemoth
They're like double-Melta Land Speeders: very specific, but they do have uses.
How did I miss this!?? You guys update so fast I can't keep up. I need to figure out how to set up RSS...
Anyway! I think willy can speak for himself in regards to his choices, and I agree, coming AT me with his chimeras/devil dogs was a poor choice. However, in a spearhead mission, there really isn't much of a way to block off snikrot from hitting SOMETHING on the turn he shows up. Willy attempted to push out his boundries by advancing up his one platoon unit on the right flank, but that left it open to trukk boy assault.
As far as shooting buggies with hydras. He had LOS issues and couldn't see them. In any event Had he shot at them he should've gotten only ~2 results on the table after KFF saves (oh and I keep kans in front of my tank to protect it from assaults and to keep it out of the way of my troops, my battlewagon isn't a assault transport, its designed to sit on objectives with the grots inside, provide moderate fire support, and project the KFF better).
Also, the event is comp-heavy, but the captains of each team attempt to make each pairing as close to each other as possible with consideration for player skill and list strength. So, ideally, you should be facing off against someone who is either at the same level as you with a similarly powered list or else someone with a worse list who is maybe better than you etc... The goal is to get 5 competitive games in the event. Think of it as bizzaro ETC.
Oh, and here's my actual list at 2k.
Big Mek: 85
Kustom Force Field
14 lootas: 210
10 Kommandos: 215
2 burnas, +Snikrot
30 Boyz: 245
Shootas, 3 Rokkits, Nob: Power
Klaw
30 Boyz: 245
Shootas, 3 Rokkits, Nob: Power
Klaw
12 Boyz: 152
Choppas, Nob: Power Klaw, Boss
Pole
Trukk: Ram
12 Boyz: 152
Choppas, Nob: Power Klaw, Boss
Pole
Trukk: Ram
10 Gretchin: 40
+Runtherd
15 Stormboyz: 220
Nob: Power Klaw, Boss Pole
2 Rokkit Buggies: 70
BattleWagon: 135
Kannon, 'Ard case, 3 big
shootas, reinforced ram
3 Killa Kans: 150
Rokkits
3 Lobbas: 81
2 ammo runts
2000
-fluger
"The only thing that confuses me is why there's just a single squad of lootas. What kind of ork player, competitive or otherwise, only brings one loota unit? "
The kind that realizes that having more than one is unnecessary. Cover saves are in limited supply and a unit of lootas in the open is a dead unit. Two units are hard to find table space for. They also get in my way in Dawn of War and I have enough problems fitting my army in the tiny Spearhead deployment area.
Also, Abuse Puppy. We need to set up a date to meet in Portland (half way between Corvallis and Puyallup) for a game or 3!
-fluger
" willy is now on the back foot because of poor movement choices and he can indeed put templates on your guys, he just has to move round to the side to not get his own tanks but since there are so many locked units and stunned tanks...well he's severely limited as you pointed out. By limiting how many assaults you could of made he would have more mobility and offensive firepower still available."
Sorry, meant BLAST markers, not templates. In any event, all his chimeras were stunned or out of position at this point anyway, so he couldn't've flamed me if he wanted.
And...finally...
A huge wall o' text of my 8 battle reports for that weekend can be found here:
http://bloodofkittens.com/2010/08/20/ork-defense-force-ordo-fanaticus-club-challenge-battle-reports/
That was a good analysis, I had pretty much realized the same after the match. I'd moved some things up to mid-field with the thinking that it would prevent his waaagh from getting things too close "in my lines" so to speak. It didn't work out. I'm working the plasm sentinels out of the list, as they are truly bad, but the plasma demo vets are stronger than one might think. Their primary duty is to kill units of MEQs and terminators that deep strike or dismount close to my lines, but the melta bombs allow them to engage vehicles as well.
I'm going to work two vendettas into the list. Money is the factor at the moment. The Primaris is staying, however, as he offers a good amount of anti-infantry firepower for his price, and is a cheap HQ.
My list was actually not the list I used during the event. I've only played my Guard maybe a dozen times at 2k, so I still don't have much practice with them. Anyone in the Portland area is welcome to help me practice :)
For some reason it's not letting me switch to my normal username: this is willydstyle.
@Nathan; the point of walling is to force Snikrot into something you choose and only one unit. Getting a multi-charge off reserves is bad deployment on willy's part I'm afraid.
@Willy; glad you liked it ^^, being able to recognise mistakes is a very important part of improving in anything as you can learn from them. This is why loses are good and humbling if taken with the right attitude! In regards to plasma vets, I'd go for cheap ISTs for that role as your Vets would be more useful as tri-melta delivery systems. 2 squads for 160 points gets you 4 plasma guns which can hide behind stuff/hijack transports/score and still put out the plasma blast with minimal opportunity cost in terms of melta.
Kirby, assaulting even one unit is fine since what I can do with Snikrot is string the unit out for about 3 models and then put the bulk up behind that in a big clump; then assault. I should only get about 3 Orks in combat, and since he's spread out as well, probably about as man IG will get there as well. If I do it really well, I can have only 2 Orks fighting.
What happens is that I likely win by very little or draw and stick around. Then I consolidate into him and win in HIS turn, then I'm free to assault in my turn. Walling off with IGsmen is smart to delay Snikrot, but its not unbeatable as I SHOULD be in combat in his turn in that situation if I deploy correctly.
-fluger
Which is a lot different from getting a multi-charge off out of reserve and a lot easier to delay further by sending another unit towards Snikrot. Sure, Snikrot's squad is poking holes in things (assuming the army hasn't sent a combat unit at it) but it's on the defending players terms rather than you hitting 3-4 things on the turn he arrives.
Yup, not disagreeing with you that getting two assault two stationary Chimeras and a unit of guardsmen on turn two with Snikrot was more than what I should expect; but its still not super easy to deal with him and his Kommandos.
How I use him depends on the circumstances and the mission and my opponent's force. In this case, it was easy to "pull my punch" with his unit and still get to do some damage to vehicles. About the best possible situation for him.
Oh, and I'm going to download Vassal tonight. We should totally get a game in! I could use my 2k list if you have a 2k Tau list you normally use to try out.
I'm trying to find your email on this site to send you a message to set up a time. If you're still up for it. I'm sure you're busy and get lots of Vassal game requests, so no sweat if you aren't interested. :)
-fluger
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