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Friday, July 30, 2010

Orks Are Bad in Competitve Play 2: Electric Boogaloo

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This post is a massive response to this discussion, which most of you will be familiar with because you were a part of it.

First of all, let me say this: I have been very impressed with the level of civility in the discussions so far. While I have no problem with a degree of profanity or joke-trash talking, it doesn't really have a place in a discussion about the relative merits of builds. I hope we can maintain this, and if anyone starts getting out of line... well, just ignore them. Some folks have been treading the borderline, though, so let's try and keep this all nice and professional. Don't tell people they suck, their opponents suck, or otherwise push this into the realm of personal insults. See the top bar? "YTTH without the bitching." Let's keep it that way.

I will start by posting parts of a very large email sent to me by 11th Company/Neil (who apparently has a podcast, which I'm not familiar with because I virtually never listen to podcasts; sorry, duder). I am not posting the full text of the email because it is actually three emails and is very, very long. If I have unfairly cut out something important, I hope he'll be generous and point it out to me- any such mistakes are made out of desire for expidiency, not an attempt to sabotage the validity of his opinion.

Also, to preface things, from his email:

1) Avoiding template damage is easy. All you have to do is spread out. For some straight up Theoryhammer, let's consider a Leman Russ battle tank shooting at an Ork Mob. They Ork player, not being an idiot I hope, spreads out considerably, covering most of the board I hope (especially against Mech IG). That puts every model approximately 2 inches away from each other in a scenario with a "pie plate" which is only 5 inches in diameter. At absolute best case scenario, this is 5 Orks hit. 4 wounded on average. Apply a minimal 5+ cover save from the Mek Boy (which will be there. You can never forget the Mek Boy or at least a 4+ cover save from other Orks), and you got 3 dead Orks on average. That's 18 points.. Now if the Leman Russ continues to fire.. It will take even the cheapest Leman Russ variant almost 9 turns to kill enough Orks to justify its points cost with the Battle Cannon alone. Keep this in mind. Some artillery is better and some is worse. The point is valid, though, in almost all cases. (Also, keep in mind that Leman Russ will also be invariably firing other guns which are not considered here such as Heavy Bolters. We realize that. The point is to argue the template's effectiveness.)

2) Flamers are the same way. Spread out. Easy enough. The great thing about flamers is that for most armies to use them, they must be close.. Close enough to assault and eat. This is also true of "flamer vehicles". Flamers are highly over-estimated versus Orks. It is impossible for me to explain why without a game board handy. This is simply one of those "theory hammer" situations that I cannot convince you of in writing, and you will either believe me that Ork players are not so stupid as to feed you entire Ork Mobz into a flamer pit or you won't. (Also, no tank shocking does not bunch models up for flaming. Read the rules on Tank Shocking again. This is a common misinterpretation.)

I love Orks. I do not believe Orks are the strongest army in 40K. To me that, that award unequivocally goes to the IG which I believe to be over-powered at the moment. Proof of this can be found in the codex countdown for my podcast (http://www.tangtwo.com/11thcompany). I do believe, though, that Orks are a strong army albeit not the strongest. (5th place actually :) )

I am sorry to say, but this left somewhat less inclinded towards the opinion held therin. Imperial Guard are not overpowered- they have plenty of weaknesses, not the least of which being shoddy morale and low survivability. Where I use IG in examples below, it's mainly because they are familiar to everyone and are a rather straighforward shooting army that is easy to demonstrate. Tau, the other major shooting force, are much more movement- and finesse-oriented, and thus do not lend themselves well to demonstrating the kind of brute firepower that a good list can put out. This does not mean IG are a "better" shooting list, however, as they are lacking in many areas where Tau (SW, SM, DE, Eldar) excel.



1) Second Turn Smashy

Orks aim for Turn 2 assaults. Turn 2 everything really. It is a misconception to believe that Orks cannot assault, even on foot, by Turn 2. Turn 2 assaults quite easily accomplished using the following examples:

・ Foot Infantry/Killa Kanz: (Turn 1) 6 inch move + d6 run = 9.5 inches on average round to 10. (Turn 2) 6 inch move + d6 WAAAGH! + 6 inch assault = 16 inch assault. Turn 1+ Turn 2 = 26 inches. 26 inches is greater than the "no man's land" found in most scenarios. Foot infantry are the least likely to make it in Turn 2 provided your opponent doesn't "help you" or you don't "help" your opponent into "helping you" which is more often the case.


First of all, a 26" distance should never get you into range of someone who doesn't want to be there. (The potential 32" can, but that is a rarity, not the norm.) An intelligent opponent will be deplyoing behind the No Man's Land, to give himself maximum distance, not on the edge of it. They already know you are going to be moving forward- why should they deploy forward against you? Most shooty weapons have a 24-48" range, more than enough to reach you.

Your other examples- Trukks, Wagons, Bikes, etc- are all largely valid, with one major problem: they assume that the enemy will do nothing, just sit there and take it. Blood Angels and Tyranids and all the other melee armies can make turn 2 assaults as well, but it rarely works out that way because the enemy shoots the faster elements of the force to death before they arrive. And, as I talked about in my original article, Trukks and Battlewagons are EXTREMELY vulnerable to this sort of thing.


2) Target Saturation

Target Saturation is the principle of providing so many "scary" targets that your opponent can't simply "out play" you with simple Target Prioritization. This is choosing between the proverbial rock and a hard place or "deff rolla or Meganobz" as the case may be.


There was no further explanation here. Target saturation with what? How? Against which kinds of guns? Autocannon-class weaponry, the bane of Ork vehicles, is extremely common these days- how are you achieving saturation against it? How does a split foot/mechanized force, like the one espoused by the Ork Defense Force articles, achieve target saturation when it haw two very clearly defined types of targets? The email was sadly lacking on these points.


3) Envelopment

Envelopment is the act of controlling your opponents movement by controlling the board. This is only possible with a "horde" army such as Orks. Your opponent won't get to "out maneuver" you because there simply won't be any board to which he can "maneuver" to which isn't controlled by the green horde. Envelopment also sees forcing your opponent to move. If he wants to get away, you can funnel his movements by denying him areas to move to.


The counter to envelopment is a breakthrough- annihilate one section of the enemy force and move in that direction. Your "wings" are going to be moving more slowly than the center part of your force, as necessitated by simple geometry, which gives the enemy a bit of extra time to escape along the long edge of the board.


4) The KLAW!!!!

Power Klaws are just awesome for Orks. They are cheap, plentiful, and killy. Power Klaws are generally "more" effective at killing vehicles than most guns (see chart below), kill monstrous creatures better than most tank busting guns, and kill just about everything else.

The following shows percentages to penetrate vehicles:

Nob w/ Pk
On almost any vehicle. (rear armor 10 and remember that nobz assaulting = S: 9)
45% chance to at least one penetrate. On Moved over 6
88% chance to at least one penetrate. On moved 6 or less.
99.9999% chance at least one penetrate.


45% chance of a penetrating hit means a 20% chance of destroying or immobilizing the vehicle, which are odds more in line with shooting effects. Keep in mind that you only get one of these per squad (as a general rule) and that you can't effectively engage them until turn 3-4 (meaning that the shooting will get at least half again as many chances as you, since he gets two extra turns where he can attempt to destroy a vehicle and you can't because you aren't in range yet.) And again, as I talked about in the original article, Klaws are a strategically nonviable method of destroying vehicles because they exacerbate your weaknesses to templates/blasts and can easily be shunted off to nonimportant targets by forming a transport wall in front of you, letting more valuable vehicles/infantry continue shooting.



Wait, do you mean Mek Boyz, the squad upgrade that are available to some units, or Big Meks, the HQ choice? The latter can grant vehicles a cover save; the former cannon. If you are referring to the ability of a Mek Boy to repair Immobilized results (and hence help deliver the cargo of the vehicle), remember that the repair roll is made in the shooting phase, not the movement phase, so you always lose a turn of movement no matter what.

Land Raiders have built-in cover in the form of Smoke Launchers- only for a turn, it's true, but they advance and pop smoke turn 1 and turn 2 they are arriving. (12+12+3+6 reaches most armies.) Why is this viable for a Land Raider and not for Ork vehicles? Because Land Raiders are ridiculously survivable, and Ork vehicles are ridiculously fragile. Raiders are AV14 on all sides and effectively ignore shaken/stunned; Battlewagons, the "tough" Ork vehicle are AV12 on the sides (where you will be taking most of your hits due to a long profile) and Open-Topped.


6) Stayin Powa

Orks are not an elite army. They don't worry about taking loses because they can afford to take them. This is stark contrast to MOST armies in 40K which are elite armies and cannot take losses. A good Ork army should, against all MEQ armies certainly, outnumber his opponent by at least 2.5 to 1. Usually 3 to 1. Maybe even more.


Yes, and? No one denies that Orks come in great numbers- in fact, this was part of my rebuttal, in that Trukks are unable to effectively convey the large numbers of Orks to where they need to be (having numbers equal to a MEQ army is a recipe for loss) and that the changes to No Retreat! in many ways mitigated this advantage for competent CC opponents. Whereas before a mob of 30 Boyz could expect to hold a CSM squad for at least six turns of fighting, that it much less likely now due to taking nearly double casualties for each round that they lose. With less time for the Klaw to do its work, Boyz are not as threatening.



Simply spamming Melta without its accompanying long-range support is a hallmark of poor list design. Six vet squads with triple-Melta, all in ML/HB Chimeras? Trash. Absolute garbage. Rather, it is the ten-strong Assault Squad dropping from the skies with three Melta weapons and a Priest attached for FNP- backed by Vanguard Vets, Land Speeders, etc, etc- that should frighten you.




Unfortunately, there simply is not enough room on a table to spread out an entire Green Tide army this way- even at a small 1500 pts, you are looking at well over a hundred models, each spaced 2" apart? There isn't room for that. Furthermore, at that point your firepower (and assault power) is terribly diluted- when the enemy can face down only 1-2 of your mobs at a time (by virtue of mobility), they are not hard to deal with. At that point, the frightening Ork firepower of 200+ S4 shots is reduced to a few paltry dozen, even before casualties are inflicted. And make no mistake, a mechanized (or otherwise mobile) army will easily be able to partition you off like this and take you apart- it's simply the fundamental Refused Flank strategy done in reverse, with you voluntarily evening your forces out for him. They don't need to "run to" anywhere, they simply have to concentrat themselves on one half of the battlefield (a simple matter for a half-dozen vehicles frames plus some support behind them) and carve through you like a scythe.

Moreover, your Big Mek (as I assume you mean here, since you keep talking about Mek Boyz giving cover saves) cannot possibly cover the whole board like this. Even if you string your mobs out, he will rarely be able to give more than 2-3 of them the 5+ save - and you should expect to be getting a 4+ reasonably often just from good use of terrain. In a foot army, a Big Mek is a middling choice. (Mechanized armies are another matter, but they have problems of their own. However, I will say that the Big Mek is certainly the most problematic part of an Ork SPeed Freaks force to deal with.)

While a Leman Russ will only kill ~3 Orks with its main gun, it should get 1-3 more with its secondaries, and by spreading all across the field, you pretty much guarantee that it will ALWAYS get its hits in with the large blast, since even scattering the full 9" will land on some other part of the unit (or another, nearby unit- remember, your forces must be contiguous if you're claiming the KFF save for them.) Those ~5 casualties, multiplied by his three HS slots, plus his FA slots (Valks or Vendettas, or even Hellhounds if you're having a really bad day), plus shooting from his Troops (probably another 1-3 kills per slot) adds up very quickly. Suddenly, you're realizing that the one mob of Boyz that could reach him this turn has been wiped out... and next turn he'll kill another. And another. And on any turn where you aren't threatening an immediate charge, his firepower doubles or more, since he doesn't need to move away from you.


(At this point, we transition to the second email, which talks about the original article in more depth.)


1) "First and foremost is anti-tank capabilities. All 5E armies must have the ability to deal with enemy vehicles, and do so quickly, efficiently, and with good redundancy such that even if one unit fails in its task" Agreed whole heartedly here. The problem is that we too often translate tank busting to mean "melta guns" or "lascannons" or "auto cannons" or other shooting weapons. This is applying the second fundamental. Commonly, Orks are told that "Lootas" are their only answer, and I am not a fan of Lootas. Power Klaws are the answer. They are redundant (nearly epidemic in an Ork army), more effective than any gun in most cases, and combined with Strength 4 backup swings which can glance, one could argue that every Ork model in the army provides redundant, tank destroying capability. THINKING LIKE AN ORK NOT A MARINE: A vehicle which is shaken/stunned and is not shooting is a dead vehicle. If it can't shoot, it can't hurt me and neither can the guys cowering inside who might want to use its fire points.

How are these Klaws getting to the enemy? I dispute your universal second-turn charge, and that means the enemy (even a static one) has several turns of unmolested shooting at you. I am also of the opinion that any good shooting army, left completely alone for several turns, should be able to virtually table its opponent. You MUST disrupt your opponents plans- under no circumstances can you just say "well, I'm sure my strategy will beat his if we just bash heads." This is not unique to Marines, or Eldar, or Tyranids, or Orks, or even to Warhammer 40K. In every game where you can affect your opponent's position, you must be ready to disrupt what he is doing, because you can never be sure that your strategy will work faster than his will. In rare occasions, this is the case- but Orks are not the fastest army in 40K, so they can't afford to take that gamble.


3) "it's having the availability of counters in your codex, not just your ability to respond to an enemy's plan." This is a total separate argument. We should have this one. J It's fun. I had a segment about this in one of our episodes arguing "counters" versus "specialist" armies. This has nothing to do with Orks but play style. As far as Orks go, I would argue that Orks don't need to counter you because their plan is to bury you with their own strategy, not counter yours. That being said, this is why it leads into an entirely separate debate, a fun one too. To start, it goes like this: "by stating that you need to be able to counter your opponent, that means you are committing to reacting to your opponent rather than making him react to you, which by most doctrine means you are losing." Needless to say, my answer to this is Orks are forcing you to react, not concerned with "countering" you. Totally separate conversation though.

I'm willing to have the discussion, actually- I think it relates heavily to the above point. It's not simply a matter of "My strategy is reactive and I respond to what you do" (analagous to control/counterspell decks in Magic: the Gathering), it's being able to prosecute an offensive strategy AND respond to what the opponent is doing. Good armies generally do both- for example, a Tyranid force includes shooting elements to shake/stun/immobilize enemy vehicles so they are easy prey for later assaults. Space Wolves armies, even TWC- and assault-focused ones, include Long Fangs to destroy enemy threats to their main plan. What does an Ork army do if it faces a strong CC unit that can kill its squads of Boyz, like Terminators + Sanguinary Priest, or something similar? It dies, that's what. But if a TWC army faces up against, say, Nidzilla, it can use its missiles to soften up targets or remove units that it can't otherwise deal with.

Orks are lacking because they do not have this option. Their only fire support comes from Lootas, which are not durable and can't effectively threaten many types of targets (heavy infantry, artillery in the backfield, main battle tanks, etc).




Against a melee opponent, a HammerRaider has two options: pushing forward into their lines, or hanging back as a countercharge/charge blocking unit. For the former tactic, he will send two Raiders at one "wing" of your force, disgorging their contents as they shoot and wiping the unit out via casualties and No Retreat. Repeat for the other parts of your army, since you cannot concentrate enough force at any one point to break his strategy. His support elements (like shooting) hang in the back of the field and force you to decide whether you want to try to get to them while he tears you apart or whether you will ignore them (and the damage they are causing) in favor of trying to deal with his hammer units.

If he uses them defensively, he probably has a stronger shooting component and simply holds the Raider in his lines until you approach, then dumps its contents on whichever of your units get near him first and thus clogging the approach lanes to him even further. (Other units will be hard-pressed to join the fight with 30 Orks blocking off every angle.)

With regards to Orks loving TH/SS Termies- yes, they do, and so do lots of other units, which is why a Terminator rock is normally set up 2 TH per three LC. Claws scare Orks, because those guys get four attacks striking before they do and have the same 2+ save to shrug off wounds. Klaw wounds go on the TH/SS guys, obviously, who have a pretty good chance to ignore them.


What is a threat, and where I do think you are trying to go with this is to armies which are a significant assault threat to Orks which include Khorne Beserkers, Wolf Guard, Blood Angels with FnP/FC, etc. These will destroy Ork Mobz whole heartedly. This leads to something that I also consider Orks really need: Meganobz

Meganobz roll badly to other hammer units, like anything with a Power Weapon or Relic Blade. They do not have an invulnerable save, which is a major weakness. Additionally, their lack of mobility means that the enemy can engage them as they please (and, as I talked about, Battlewagons are too easily shot down to be considered a reliable transport.)




Well, here's a basic IG list to compare to:
2 CCS w/4x Melta
2 Psyker Battle Squad (in Chimera)
1 Marbo
2 Infantry Platoons
-PCS w/AC+Sniper
-3 Infantry Squad w/AC+Sniper
2 Vetran Squads w/3x Flamer (in Chimeras)
2 Vendettas w/HB sponsons
2 Manticore
1 Basalisk
I'm sure Stelek or someone else who knows IG better would tear me to pieces for this shitty list, but it's a decent outline, and it isn't in any way specialized to beat Orks- a simple take-all-comers list. (Chimeras have ML in the turret, all vehicles have Flamer on the hull.) The list can reasonably expect to kill off 2-3 Battlewagons and basically any number of Trukks on the first turn- Vens can Scout to get side shots and carry Melta teams as needed, lots of Autocannons to do dirty work against Trukks, etc. Furthermore even assuming a simple 5 hits per large blast, it can easily kill upwards of thirty Orks per turn, even after cover saves- and rest assured, that Big Mek will be high on his priority list. If you get in close, squads can bail out of their Chimeras and send them forward to flame you down as a delaying tactic, and the two squads of Vets provide roaming flamer death to anything that approaches the lines. All of this firepower is flexible and protected, either by vehicle hulls or by sitting out of your range along the back edge of the board.




Like Flueger says, the most effective Ork lists are not "foot" or "speedfreakz". They are a combination of both.

I would also like to point out that nowhere in this discussion did we ever talk about "points levels" either. I'm not sure what points level you assume the games are being played at. 1500? 1850? 2000? 2500? Frankly, I points around 2000 because that's where I think 40k is actually fair to most armies. Some people vehemently believe that 1500 is the correct level though. It is important because I believe that Orks get weaker or stronger depending on the points level just like most armies.


I assume 1500-2000pts when talking about games, as a rule. Most people play at these point values, and below or above them the force org is very limiting (either because of required choices or because of lack of space), so they seem like the logical zone of discussion.



Battle Wagon Heavy:

HQ:

Big Mek with KFF (85 points)
Big Mek with KFF (85 points)
Elite:
Mega Nobz x 4 = 160 points
Battle Wagon w/ Deff Rolla = 110 Points
Mega Nobz x 4 = 160 points
Battle Wagon w/ Deff Rolla = 110 Points
Troops:
19 x Boyz + Nob w/ PK = 155 points
19 x Boyz + Nob w/ PK = 155 points
19 x Boyz + Nob w/ PK = 155 points
29 x Boyz + Nob w/ PK = 215 Points
29 x Boyz + Nob w/ PK = 215 Points
Heavy:
Battlewagon w/ Deff Rolla = 110 points
Battlewagon w/ Deff Rolla = 110 points
Battlewagon w/ Deff Rolla = 110 points


So what I see here is five Wagons mounting up two Nobz squads and three Boyz, with two more Boyz to hang back and take objectives (or threaten late-turn charges.) Seems reasonable? Most shooting armies are not scared of this, because you only have five vehicles. Comparatively tough ones, but still only five. At 2K points, my Tau army brings more Railguns to the table than you have vehicle chassis- and these are all twin-linked, with heavy Pathfinder support. My Piranhas will move in front of one of your Wagons, holding it frozen (and remember, I am a skimmer and thus get the 3+ save against your Tank Shock, so the Deffrolla doesn't help much.) Two BWs get lit up and pounded by my Railguns- I can strip your cover down to nothing and still get three expected hits (3+ with reroll), and with +2 on the chart, I am going to kill you. My nine Crisis scoot around for side shots on the other Wagons, perhaps stunning one of them. (If you went first, I am practically guaranteed side shots with all my Crisis, which at 9x3 shots will probably wreck you.)

So turn one, I have killed two (or four) Wagons, immobilized one, and you still have not yet dealt with my Kroot screen. Even assuming you charge into my first layer turn 2 and wipe them out, I still have another layer of Kroot protecting me and over 100 S5+ shots at you, which you are not going to survive. (I can strip your KFF down to a 6+ easily and aim at the Mek squads first, if they are in range to give benefit.) What do you think turn 3 is going to be like? At this point you probably have no Battlewagons remaining and I have evaporated your first wave of units. Your squads of foot Boyz are not yet in range of my main elements (remember, Crisis can move 12" per turn and Broaodsides are sitting on the very back line.) What can you possibly hope to do when I have smashed over half your army and you have only killed two 100pt troop units?

Another variant of the above list dropped tone BW full of Boyz and one unit of Meganobz in exchange for two units of Stormboyz. This is actually even easier, as it only has three Wagons to deal with- Piranhas block one, Railguns on the other two kill them, and Crisis (and Devilfish, etc) open up on the Stormboyz. 30 T4 units have absolutely no chance against that kind of firepower and will probably be reduced to a pitiful few members who will then fail their Ld check.

This is why I feel that it is vital that Orks have a way to deal with the enemy's plan. If, in the above examples, Lootas are included, things become more difficult. The Tau list is forced to deal with the backfield firepower while trying to stave off assaults, because the huge numbers of S7 shots will spell doom for their Devilfish (and hence ability to score) and Crisis suits.

Now we'll give Nathan some responses from the previous thread, since he raised some interesting issues there.


I think it could be better; but it certainly isn't terrible. The funny thing about defending my precious orks is that in the circles I play in, I had to for months try and convince people Orks aren't OVERWHELMINGLY better than other armies. People only played my orks if they wanted to tune up for tournaments. When TastyTaste came to TSHFT and seemed surprised I was winning with Orks, I thought he was nuts. In fact, all the things I hear about Orks sucking just makes me feel like I'm taking crazy pills. I don't know how you can look at the units and say, "Terrible." It honestly breaks my mind.

I think this is very enlightening- remember, in my first article I mentioned that a good sign of low-level play and undeveloped metagames is that there is very little agreement on what was good and what was not? This is a perfect example of that phenomenon. While in more "developed" games there are always disagreements and local quirks about what is considered good and what is not, in 40K, there is a VAST gap of differences. Are foot Eldar good or terrible? Are Nobz Bikers balanced? Which codex is the strongest? Are Dark Eldar even playable? Etc, etc, etc. There is very little agreement on even the most basic of appraisals of different units and codices in the Warhammer 40K community, and I don't think this will change until competitive play becomes more well-defined and more accepted.

It's not that the Ork units are terrible- far from it. Boyz are beautiful at 6pts each and their number of attacks, gun, and squad options make my Termagants cry every time. And yet the Termagant is generally a superior troop choice, because it comes in a codex with good support for it in other roles (like Hive Guard and Tervigons) and it fits well into an overall plan for the Tyranid army. Likewise, Nobz, Lootas, Buggies, etc, are all very competitively-priced choices for an Ork army. It is NOT bad units that make the Ork codex bad, it is LACK of important roles in the army.

Imagine, if you will for a moment, a hypothetical army. This army gets a HQ choice with A8 S4 WS5 and W4, along with 3+ armor and a Power Weapon, all for a measly 100pts. Awesome, right? And its troop choices are T5/4+ A3 WS4 BS4 and come with a Bolter, Pistol, and CCW. And they're only twelve points each! They have a fast attack version with Jump Packs, for only 3pts more and an Elites version that has WS5, BS5, and the option for Power Weapons on every member of the squad (10pts each.) This army is rockin' awesome, right? Horribly underpriced, can't be beat? No, it is absolute trash, and I'll tell you why: it has no way to handle vehicles. It doesn't matter how good the good parts of your army are if you're lacking in critical areas, and Orks are missing several of these key pieces.


The definition I saw in the article above for "top tier" lists was that it needed anti-tank, mobility, and flexibility/adaptability. I think my list has all that in spades. Do I think my list is unbeatable? No! Do I think it has a good chance against "top tier" lists? Yes!

I explained in detail in the article why I think you're lacking in several key ways. You anti-tank is very limited- one fragile squad and ~6 Missile Launchers at 2000pts. (Again, your Rokkits on the Boyz will NOT be in range until turn ~3 or so, at which point you are giving up your run- your only hope to catch vehicles- in order to try for them.)


The terminators aren't a big deal because they are predictable and don't have a great way of cleaving through a big mob. You don't do enough damage to auto-pop a unit of boyz, and then I counter assault with another one (after putting the Nob on the priest to vape him so no more FnP (and a KP!)) or a trukk boy squad or stormboyz. Fearless may suck for losing extra models, but its nicer than losing combat by 10 and needing snake eyes...

Also, those terminators would be operating solo for the most part unless you commit tiny assault squads in to help, and that's just silly.


Well, as someone else kindly pointed out for me (since I'm a BA n00b), the Priest would actually just chill inside the Land Raider and give out his bonuses. Engaging a second unit would be all but impossible until the first one is gutted, as you aren't going to be able to get any models into B2B with his Termies. (Also, he is killing ~8 models per turn of your squad, and then 8 more off of No Retreat. That will end your Boyz REAL quick.) And no matter what happens you aren't going to murder his Terminators with combat resolution, since they have ATSKNF and 2+/4+ against the resultant wounds.

They will indeed be in there solo because none of your units can reasonably expect to hurt them. Certainly poor luck might down a model or two, but he can expect to shrug off an entire squad of Boyz and only lose a single Terminator.



The reason I disagree is because winning simply proves that you were better (or luckier) than the other players. I could tell you about how I have won local tournaments and the 'Ard Boyz prelims (alright, fine 2nd place, but only because I didn't get to face the 1st place guy and came out behind on tie-breakers. :\ ) but that doesn't prove anything; it only shows that I was a superior player (or luckier) than the other people that attended that tournament. Theoryhammer is not perfect- it needs to be backed by experience enough to make its claims valid, but experience alone does not make one right. The old man saying "I've been smokin' and drinkin' for ninety years and they ain't been bad for me yet!" is not a good example to follow- just because something has worked in a specific example does not mean that it will work in the general case. That is why we make models, create theories, derive explanations for how and why things work the way they do. Simply invoking "I'm winning therefore what I'm doing is right" is not a good path.

I have never claimed your local players are terrible, whatever others may have said. But your own list does not strike me as strongly competitive for high-level play, which is the ideal that my articles are generally striving to and the specific point of the one I posted. I have gotten my face ripped apart by sub-par lists because I played badly, and it was no one's fault but my own, and a credit to my opponent for playing well. A mediocre list, played by a strong general familiar with it, will win far more games than a strong list played badly; list-building is only one element of improving your play. If you are doing well with your list, all the more power to you- but I have presented what I feel is a coherent set of arguments as to where the list has its failings and I have not seen a strong counter-argument against any of them yet.



Abuse Puppy. Where are you in OR? I'm travelling down for a tournament on the 13th-15th of August in Vancouver WA. Any chance you could come up and play a game on the 13th at the hotel (they have open gaming). I could bring this list or my 2k list (not as tuned since I've only put in 20 games with it so far), which is fairly similar.

I'm actually all the way down in Corvallis. Vancouver might be doable, but I'd have to coerce someone into giving me a ride. However, it's a possibility, and I certainly wouldn't mind meeting some other skilled Warhams from the Northwest here, so I'll definitely look into it. Can you link me to a page with info on the event?



I strongly agree here- a single game does not prove anything, which is why I find all of the "IF UR SO GOOD THEN COME PLAY MY SUPER-AWESOME LIST I'LL SHOW U!" challenges on the internet to be a bit absurd. I can't say I have any truly talented Ork players to face locally, so I expect I would certainly learn something, one way or another.

However, that doesn't change my position on Orks, nor does it change my beliefs about competitive gaming. I do think that improving list-building and theoryhammer are useful pursuits in this game, and I take myself as an example- I was once the n00b I see so much of now, despairing at Lash and Nob Bikerz and filling my Tau army with Fire Warriors. I've come a long way since then, and it's mostly because I started reading better advice and people who knew what they were talking about. A well-formulated argument with good evidence can show people the holes in their logic (or their army), if they are willing to see them.

It is not a matter of "MY DOG IS BIGGER THAN YOUR DOG," it's an admittedly-endless quest to maximize one's skills in a particular arena. There is no singular "best list" any more than there is a single "best unit" or "best person." AT the same time, not all lists are equal, and finding the best balance of elements to be combined is the very point of competitive gaming. Different players will have different styles and tilt the balance one way or the other for them, but that does not fundamentally change the essentials of strategy, tactics, and gameplay. Is it scientific? No, of course not, this is a game. But, to reference myself a bit, it is heuristic, and there's no reason we can understand the rules of the system.



I find that tournament success is much easier to quantify and explain and adapt to. I don't see how you can so readily discount them as benchmarks for list quality. My question is: if the lists you think are so superior are indeed superior; what is stopping you from winning lots of tournaments where lists like mine, which you say is terrible, win at? Shouldn't those just be free prizes for you?

Up until recently? Being a crappy player was what stopped me. I would honestly say that it was not until perhaps eight to ten months ago that I started digging my way out of being a pretty bad player. At this point, the main reason I am not winning tons of free prizes and gaining fame and fortune and sexy ladies is because my town is fairly small and I can't easily get to the big 40K events to get lots of games and practice in, much less win tons of tournaments. I managed to get to the semis in 'Ard Boyz; I am not completely awful, but I do not have the wealth of play experience that is necessary to be a truly great general. I am a better theorist and list-builder than I am player because those are skills I can hone whether or not there is someone around to play at my game shop on a given Saturday.


I know this is probably a fruitless request; but I play at TSHFT every time and its run two times a year. There's one happening this labor day weekend up here in Seattle. If you can make it, I highly encourage you to come out. Its non-comped; its all about BPs; come and prove your points. I don't mind being wrong; but I like to have it proven. ;)

Well, from the sound of things it seems like an interesting tournament that is much more down my alley than most- I will give it a shot, although between school and work I cannot promise to make it. Still, it at least seems interesting- I will have to get back to you on that.

(And hell, I wouldn't mind playing some friendly games with you; you seem like a pretty chill guy, unlike a lot of militant defenders of a particular Warham style.)

I'd really like to get a game in to either, A: learn something or B: teach you something.

Unfortunately, the only test for a real army vs army matchup is one game of each mission/deployment option (9 games), and even better playing out 3 of each (27 games). I really think that's the only way you can make an accurate assessment of an armies ability vs another, and even then you are limiting it on player skill, so you'd have to run the same 27 games again only switching generals. And even THAT doesn't cover all the variables of personal taste and how one intrinsicly understands one's own force (some armies make more sense to people than others); so you'd have to make sure both people are equally comfortable with the lists...

I think this idea of creating quantifiably superior lists is a quixotic hope that is prone to disapointment. Its an endless game of "my dog's bigger than your dog" and can't possibly expect to be scientific.

I'm fully convinced that tournament results are the only measure of a list; you both disagree. That's an impasse we'll never breach I believe.

As to the Alpha Strike argument. Again, see above. I don't think Orks are really as vulnerable to "Alpha Striking" as you might think. That being said, it's much better to do a list comparison to actually statistics and potential damage to see for certain what a smart "Alpha Strike" list will actually do in a single turn of shooting to a smart Ork player.

1) " Deff Rollas can wreck them with reasonable consistency, but they do so only by putting themselves right in the heart of the enemy formation". This is a contradiction to the notion of the hammer unit in a land raider being backed up by shooting. The landraider had to come forward to "block" the shooty element which means my Deff Rollas are not "in the heart" of the enemy line which stayed back to shoot. Doing this will sacrifice your Landraider plus its cargo to Gork and Mork in a suicide.

2) "One of the strongest "rock" armies in the game, using a Land Raider to deliver TH/SS Termies and backing it with strong shooting support or other assault elements." Terminators, especially TH/SS kind (the one's that everyone takes) are actually little threat to Orks. Thinking like an Ork, I wasn't going to get a "save" anyways against your HtH anyways. What I DO LIKE about TH/SS Termies as an Ork player is their Initiative 1. Here's a little more math hammer:

7) We Eats Da Melta Fer Breakfast

All Theoryhammer being the same, let's talk melta guns briefly. Many armies take Melta Guns to counteract the "mechanize" 5E meta game. Melta Guns are terrible versus Orks. First, they only kill one Ork a turn at best. Second, to get the desired "Battlewagon killing" effect, you have to be next to the Battlewagon.. Which means you are also next to a horde of angry greenskins who will kill your squad, their melta gun, and the transport they came in almost always out "costs" the Battlewagon they just destroyed, even with a Deff Rolla attached. Trying to melta Ork vehicles only results in two real outcomes; 1) squad suicide or 2) killing the vehicle only after it has served its purpose which is to deliver Orks and thus came close to you. Keep in mind as well that even at best, a melta gun has less than a 50% chance to kill a battlewagon because of the KFF, even if you do decide that "squad suicide" is your best option. Almost invariably, it is a losing gambit.

The second fundamental should be obvious at this point. Orks <> Marines. Duh! You can not apply your basic tactics, strategies, or MEQ meta gaming to playing Orks.

The third tenet is probably the most important for the Theoryhammerist. Positioning is key. Orks must understand positioning for multi-assaults, avoiding template damage, and envelopment. Here's some points to consider.

5) Mek Boyz

Mek Boyz are arguably the best force multiplier in the game right next to such greats as Vulkan He'stan and Eldrad. So very cheap. So very effective. Note that Mek Boyz make Battlewagons almost as survivable as a Landraider on side armor and nearly 2x as effective against front armor. Note that Mek Boyz provide cover saves regardless of what the terrain looks like, what units are in play, what direction people are moving, etc.

Case Study: Land Raider Survivability Versus Battlewagon + Mek Boy

The first assumption, and the deal breaker, is if Land Raiders get a cover save or not. Certainly, if a land raider receives a cover save, it is more survivable. What is left to Theoryhammer is if they really will or not. Will you spend even more points on your Land Raider to "block it" with vehicles? Will you assume that it blows smoke on any turn someone wants to shoot at it? Will you assume there is enough terrain on the board (usually a laughable notion at most tournaments) for a Land Raider to hide behind WHILE it moves ACROSS THE BOARD to deliver its passengers? You decide. Rest assured, I think that sometimes they do get cover saves and they sometimes don't.

112 pinkments:

Neil Gilstrap said...

On first reading, honestly, yes you do need to include the whole thing. You are leaving out critical information to formulate "nit pick" arguments. I'll point out a few for you. :)

1) "Land Raiders are ridiculously survivable, and Ork vehicles are ridiculously fragile."

Here's the part you let out:

In any case, here’s the Mathhammer:
Battlewagon Side Armor + Mek Boz VERSUS TL Las Cannon = (91% chance to hit * 16.7% chance to glance * 16.7% chance to destroy * 50% chance to make cover save) + (91% chance to hit * 50% chance to penetrate * 50% chance to destroy * 50 chance to make cover save) = (1.268% + 11.375%) = 12.643% to kill a BW on Side Armor. That’s abysmal. 1 in 9.X Twin Linked Lascannons to kill a single battle on the side armor.
Land Raider = (91% chance to hit * 16.7% chance to penetrate * 33% chance to destroy) = 5%. Thus, a Land Raider is twice as survivable without a cover save than a Battlewagon is with Side Armor + a Mek Boy.
Thing to take away from this…. It takes a LOT of Twin Linked Lascannons to kill a Battlewagon, even on side armor when a Mek Boy is involved. It takes a TON of Twin Linked Lascannons to kill a Landraider. Fortunately, Battlewagons are less than half the price of a Landraider so Orks can run 2 for the price of one. Keep that in mind as well which is critical. (yes, I also realize that Melta Guns at “2d6” range are more effective than TL Las Cannons. See bullet #7)


Not fair. I don't consider a 12.64% chance to kill a BW ridiculously fragile (and that's on side armor).

Here's another:

"45% chance of a penetrating hit means a 20% chance of destroying or immobilizing the vehicle, which are odds more in line with shooting effects. Keep in mind that you only get one of these per squad (as a general rule) and that you can't effectively engage them until turn 3-4 (meaning that the shooting will get at least half again as many chances as you, since he gets two extra turns where he can attempt to destroy a vehicle and you can't because you aren't in range yet.) And again, as I talked about in the original article, Klaws are a strategically nonviable method of destroying vehicles because they exacerbate your weaknesses to templates/blasts and can easily be shunted off to nonimportant targets by forming a transport wall in front of you, letting more valuable vehicles/infantry continue shooting."

And you didn't include the chart which shows how all Melta Guns and lascannons actually have worse odds of destroying the vehicles from the shooty armies.

Neil Gilstrap said...

Also left out the parts where I talk about how trukks don't work but are trying to beat me over the head with more Trukk arguments. :) There's more but you get the point I hope.

I'll start working on the odds calculations now for that IG list.

Also, here's the numbers on your Tau:

Assuming 9 Rail Guns from 3 twin linked broadside units of 3:

Also, assuming that you negate all my cover saves which will likely require now 3 units of at least 6 pathfinders in this list. Would need a points check on this list thus far because I don't know what we are up to at this point. (Don't have Tau memorized)

Glancing Odds:
0.75 (twin linked) * 0.167 (rolls a 4) * 0.333 (rolls a 5 or 6) = 0.0417 or 4.17%
Penetrating Odds:
0.75 (twin linked) * 0.333 (rolls a 5 or 6) * 0.666 (rolls a 3+) = 0.1666 or 16.6% chance.
Total Odds: 20.77% chance per twin linked rail shot.

Odds a Unit of 3 Broadsides will roll AT LEAST 1 destroyed result on a battlewagon: 50.2% per unit.

Odds of Destroying 2 with 9 Shots: 58%
Odds of Destroy 3 with 9 Shots: 28%

Plays out just like my Tau opponent in Ard boyz. Two a turn is what he got with some lucky rolls mind you. He didn't have 3 path finder squads either laying down that much marker lightness. :) Of course, I also had 6 battle wagons in that list... :(

In any case, like I said, if I get Turn 1, you get one Turn to shoot my wagons with your rail guns. We can debate the "side shotting" in a bit with the Crisis suits in a bit. Going to calculate the odds on the IG army alpha strike first. Be back in a bit!

Neil Gilstrap said...

Need to clarify some stuff here too:

2 CCS w/4x Melta
2 Psyker Battle Squad (in Chimera)
1 Marbo
2 Infantry Platoons
-PCS w/AC+Sniper
-3 Infantry Squad w/AC+Sniper
2 Vetran Squads w/3x Flamer (in Chimeras)
2 Vendettas w/HB sponsons
2 Manticore
1 Basalisk

CCS in Chimeras? What the load out on the Chimeras? ML + HB?

Also, I'll work under these premises:

IG gets Turn 1 to shoot so minimum 24 inch distance between army if the IG deployed on his edge of deployment, or is he deploying on the table edge to avoid my Turn 2 assault :) Need to know to calculate ranges and see what will be in that first turn and what won't.

Neil Gilstrap said...

Also, can you post or provide a link to your Tau list? I'll need that for calculation.

Also, 100 S5 Shots odds just off hand cuz this is easy:

Tau Odds: 0.5 (to hit) * 0.666 (wound) = 0.333

Assuming zero cover saves: Odds to kill at least 33 Orks, 50%. Gets worse after that of course.

Assuming 5+ Cover Save From Big Mek (my bad for calling him a mek boy, lighten up :) ): (22% to kill) = 22 Dead Orks. Easy math when 100 shots!

Assuming 4+ Cover Save (what I would argue most of my army is probably going to get either from its own dead vehicles, your own models getting in the way with your bubble wrap etc., but we'll let it stand where it is: 16.65% = 17ish dead Orks.

Total Orks just in Wagons Alone: 60. Not including the mega nobz who had a 2+ save :(.

I know it seems like with all those guns so much should die. It just doesn't work out like that.

Now, of course, the rest of your army can shoot the Orksies too, but at some point you are going to run out of guns to shoot the wagons, the nobz, the Orks, the foot Orks (who will be right there as well). I think that's why it would really help if I saw your list. We can't just assume that what sounds like a large amount of firepower just means the Orks will fold. That's the Stayin' Powa part in that large document.

Nathan said...

"I explained in detail in the article why I think you're lacking in several key ways. You anti-tank is very limited..."

I guess I'd have to show you how quickly I CAN get into range with you. I really think we should get a game in. Honestly, I need to install Vassal (although I hear the dice rolling part of it sucks). But again, the game isn't JUST about killing things (unless its KP!); its about objectives and board control (like Go, not Chess) most of the time. I have enough anti-tank in both melee and shooting combined with all the other elements of my army that make it work well.

"But your own list does not strike me as strongly competitive for high-level play, which is the ideal that my articles are generally striving to and the specific point of the one I posted."

No dis on Corvallis; but its really not a hotbed for gaming talent as compared to Seattle. I play against a ton of GT winners and go to events in Portland and Vancouver BC often enough to have pitted myself against tourney vets. I've been winning tournaments consistently in Fantasy and 40k since 1999, I have a firm grasp of tactics and I play against people that do/did game testing for GW. I also sit and talk to them face to face at the store about theory hammer. While the world of the 40k blogsphere is new to me; the bantering of ideas and chatting about lists is old hat, just analog, not digital. ;) There's a knowledge base here at several FLGSs that I could tap into simply by getting games in. I should also mention I've been involved with the PACNW forum Ordo Fanaticus for years now (though it gets hacked like every year...) and I chat with other people there about lists and such.

Maybe I'm showing my age (29.5) here, which is either a good or bad thing. :) To me, this whole debate sounds like what happened in baseball between the sabermetricians and the old school scout guys. If you're a baseball nut, you'll know what I'm talking about.

I'm always willing to listen to sound advice or hear new tactics; but to me, the proof is on the table. Maybe I'm from Missouri, 'cause I want you to show me. :)

I get that theory hammer is what you can do where you are at and I'm sure that that's fine and dandy. I don't begrudge you that; but I detect a lot of arrogance from a lot of people in this discussion that I don't feel is backed up by playing against good Ork armies or good Ork players.

I hope you didn't take that above as negative; you've definitely been one of the more level-headed internet debaters I've encountered (mark mercer is also dope) who strenuously disagree with my assessments; and I DO seriously hope you can make it up for either TSHFT or the gaming night in Vancouver.

"I strongly agree here- a single game does not prove anything..."

It sure doesn't, but it'd be fun to see your style of play and see how it meshes with my experience. Like I said, I don't mind being wrong; but I really want to see it in action. I'm kind of more of a kinesthetic learner (I need to hold and touch things) than an abstract thinker (though I manage...).

I've been beaten by lists that I thought had no chance against me before, simply because my opponent did something unexpected; but, my CPU is a neural net processor...a learning computer... Fool me once and all that...

So, while I read your points about things and think to myself, "That's not how it would go down..." I'm willing to admit maybe you're seeing something I'm not. I think we won't be able to prove this to each other in any reasonable way other than a game and a brew. ;)

Neil Gilstrap said...

"To me, this whole debate sounds like what happened in baseball between the sabermetricians and the old school scout guys. If you're a baseball nut, you'll know what I'm talking about. "

Lol :) What are you talking about ??

Nathan said...

Neil, you just might be the only person that can out-type me about Orks! :)

Neil Gilstrap said...

Dude, you ain't see nothing yet. He didn't post even a 1/4 of the write up I sent him. 7500+ words :)

Nathan said...

"Lol :) What are you talking about ??"

We're threadjacking here, so bear with me.

Sabermatricians are people that starting with Bill James and co, started looking at baseball with nothing but statistics. They didn't look at games, they just calculated percentages and such to come up with scientific proof of the skills of players. There was a lot of blowback towards them in the 80s and 90s when they were starting out as old-school baseball types thought it was nuts to not look at players to evaluate their skills.

Eventually, teams started paying attention to things like VORP and OPS and other statistical tools and started making teams based on them. Billy Beane, the GM of the As was famous for this and in the book Moneyball, alienated a lot of other GMs by basically proclaiming himself a genius and trendsetter.

Anyway, a lot of the new stats are now held in high regard, but still a lot of managers and such make dcisions based on their gut and experience and not just simply stats.

Anyway, the analogy is obvious as the theoryhammerists are looking at army lists mostly in a vacuum and making informed decisions based on stats (or at least that's the idea); while tournament vets scoff at this noise because they've never needed this kind of critique. Both discount the other's successes for various reasons and both will point out flaws in the logical basis of each other's paradigm.

Neil Gilstrap said...

Interesting. We should debate that as well. I think it's the exact opposite problem. Theoryhammerists aren't looking at the stats at all. They just go "that's a lot" or "i would just do this" and somehow the lists always have "exactly what they needed to do it" or "automatically succeed with a dose of +50% in optimism or effectiveness".

It's what I always try to educate in 40k (or even in real life for that matter). In other words, tactical squads suck and adding that Missile Launcher doesn't fix the problem. :)

Smurfy said...

See, Neil and Nathan, talking about Probability?

Might help:

http://whiskey40k.blogspot.com/2010/07/three-levels-of-40k-game-play-getting.html

Smurfy said...

I hate math.

Neil Gilstrap said...

LOL :) Low and unnecessary blow. But since you brought it up.

What Mike Brandt is talking about there (we just talked about this on the podcast which is why I'm more than familiar with it) is moving out of the probability pool into more advanced play. However, you start in the probability pool when you are new, to get things right.

The reasoning is so that once you are a master of probability and the game, you can move on to the more advanced pool where you realize that probability isn't the only thing governing the outcome of a game. This does not mean that you can exaggerate or be optimistic about the results of dice rolls. That puts you LESS than the probability pool, not above it. Right now, we are exaggerating (a lot which I am basically showing you) which means we are still in a kiddie pool discussion.

What Nathan is trying to tell you is that he doesn't need me to be doing these calculations because he already knows what the result was when he started the conversation.

We know you hate math :) *back at ya :P *

Neil Gilstrap said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Nathan said...

Smurfy, that whole article was almost exactly my point from the beginning. Also, it rocked because it referenced Reign of Fire.

Neil Gilstrap said...

Dangit got the wrong name in there. :P

What I was saying was, this is a great, fun time killer for work. Lovin' it! :)

Also, Abusepuppy, would you like to do podcast interview on this subject? We just got done doing Orks in episodes 26 and 27, and I think my listeners (especially the guys from Europe) would love to hear the "orks suck" opinion.

Nathan said...

"What Nathan is trying to tell you is that he doesn't need me to be doing these calculations because he already knows what the result was when he started the conversation."

Yes, that was precisely my point from the outset, especially in regards to Kuolema's posit that he would kill all my lootas in one turn of shooting. I could've sat there and run the numbers, but I knew from 4 seconds of looking at that list that what he was claiming was impossible.

VT2 said...

Some facts.

1) orks don't get melta, except on their weirdboy.
2) orks need to use desperate measures to kill tanks.
3) orks cannot realistically kill heavy tanks.
4) orks need large numbers to win combat, but they cannot get to combat unless you put them inside transports that only take a few orks, and have paper defenses.
5) orks lack survivability.
6) your army is large, and people can easily use pincher tactics to cut it into chunks, and deal with your slow infantry/puny transports at their leisure.
7) limited support. You get a maximum of 9 units that can deal with armor and real threats.

Nathan said...

The only fact you posted was the first one; and its irrelevant. Why is a meltagun, that needs to be within 6" at the start of the shooting phase superior to a Nob who needs to be within 6" at the start of the assault phase?

I'd post some responses directly, but let me just link you to two of my blog posts that should hit the highlights of what you're proposing.

http://bloodofkittens.com/2010/03/25/ork-defense-force-cutting-through-the-utah-air/

http://bloodofkittens.com/2010/02/10/ork-defense-force-av-14-why-orks-dont-care/

Smurfy said...

Because the Nob has to hit the vehicle on a 4 or 6 and needs a 5+ on the damage result to kill

WHEREAS

Melta - Hit on 3 pen AV 14 on 7+ on 2d6, and kill on 4+

...

VT2 said...

It's not 'just meltaguns' - it's reliable anti-tank, period, which most of the time has melta, or pretend-melta, as a special rule.

Railguns, meltaguns, warplance, rapture cannons, multi-meltas, fusion guns, dark lances, storm eagle rockets, bastion breacher shells...
Even meltabombs, monstrous creatures, chainfists, and lascannons are more reliable than what the orks get.

You don't get a single anti-tank weapon that has AP1, or even a reliable one that rolls extra dice for penetration, because GW decided to steal all the super stikkbombz, old tankbusta bombz, and the good zapgunz.
My marines get those in each and every single squad.

You have rokkits, but I get a multi-melta.
All my infantry has krak grenades.
I get a unit that can go 100% melta, if I want to put in the points.

VT2 said...

A very important thing, that cannot be denied even by the most hardcore lover of all things green, is the general feeling of helplessness and waste that comes when you charge a rhino with 30 boys, simply so the nob can have a desperate shot at destroying it.

Out of 30 guys, only one is a threat to my steel coffins - the rhino I call my mobile bunker.
Since most ork armies will have 4-6 units of boyz, that's 4-6 guys who can threaten my 9-13 rhino chassis.

The numbers just don't add up, and I see this scenario all too often.
People feared the orks early, but once I rolled out my ancient rhinos, and the rest of our imperials and chaos followed suit, the boyz in green are struggling.

They just don't have enough dakka and chop to take down even the first wave of rhinos.

Why?
Because GW stole all the tools that helped you open vehicles for 10 years.

Nathan said...

@smurfy: And a nob has 4 attacks, not just one shot. Also, if I imobilize the vehicle, that's almost as good as killing it since now I hit it automatically in your turn (unless you counter charge or kill the unit). In some cases, the Nob will be hitting AV10 (rear) while a comprable shot with a melta might be at AV12 or AV14. In either situation, you need to be close to your opponent in order to use the weapon at hand. Somehow Ork vehicles and tactics don't get them close enough to do stuff; yet everything else does... HMMMMMM

@VT2: rokkits, lootas, kannons, and to a lesser extent; lobbas and grotzookas. All those are adequate at taking out vehicles.

I don't understand how everyone can go gaga over autocannon and then dismiss lootas.

All those weapons you're talking about are fine and dandy; but I don't need that level of anti tank at range to be effective. I just need to be able to eliminate most of my opponent's mech units. Despite all this group-think assertation that I won't be in range with my rokkits; I've never seen it play out like that. I keep hearing all the ways Orks are terrible at taking out vehicles but I have never seen it in practice.

Nathan said...

"Out of 30 guys, only one is a threat to my steel coffins - the rhino I call my mobile bunker.
Since most ork armies will have 4-6 units of boyz, that's 4-6 guys who can threaten my 9-13 rhino chassis."

Lets say for argument's sake that in a vacuum I am uninjured at 30 strong and you moved 12" Those 29 boyz (lets say their slugga boyz for Neil's sake) have 116 attacks, which hits 19.14 times, which glances 3.16 times. If I roll a six or a five, my odds of taking you out jump considerably; especially if I immobilize you as now the Nob auto-hits.

Also, in my list, I have 5 power klaws on Nobz and three DCCWs on Killa Kans, and that's plenty.

Smurfy said...

Somehow Ork vehicles and tactics don't get them close enough to do stuff; yet everything else does... HMMMMMM

Somehow smacking something with a Klaw (Orks answer for everything? HMMMMMM) Is gonna work?

Run the math for me, which is superior here, the melta or the Klaw.

Smurfy said...

And btw, yes other armies have superior means to place anti-tank:

Speeders
Fast Units
Deep Strike

Etc.

Your fast Klaw? Oh, in Transports or on a Bike, and again what are we shooting first?

VT2 said...

They're not adequate.
You need to hose a single predator with lootas to even have a shot at keeping it from shooting the next turn.

The combination of random shots, bad ballisticskill, strength 7, and the new damage charts create a seriously big mess.
An autocannon always fires two shots. It hits better than the orky version, too, and is sometimes linked. It also isn't available to just a single unit in your army, of which you can have a maximum of three on the field.

Your large blasta scatter, and you want them hitting infantry, anyway.
That's why you brought them, right? And you are aware of the fact that imperial guardsmen everywhere hung up their battlecannon Leman Russes, because those shots are now popularly called 'the paint removal shells?'

Really, now - I'm not trying to poke fun at the orks, or you.
I love orks. I think they're great, and look impressive on the field, but they have some serious disadvantages that, when combined with the army as a whole, make things far, far more difficult than they should be.

And yes, you can run over my rhino with your deathrolla. Great.
That's fine by me. I don't expect my rhinos to survive even the second turn, so having them run over in turn four is fine by me.
Means i get to slag you with my multi-melta, meltagun, and combi-melta next turn.

That's why rollas are a desperation move. You trade the wagon for whatever you run over.

You need to consider reality, too.

I plonk down anywhere from 9 to 14 rhino chassis in a 2000 point game.
That's predators, razorbacks, rhinos, and sometimes even vindicators.
9 to 14 of them.

If you take 3 squads of lootas, 3 squads of killa kans, and 3 squads of buggiess/trakks/koptas, you have 9 squads that can shoot me with somewhat reliable anti-tank.

My army puts out 14 hunter-killers right away.
Those 14 missiles are going to wreck any motor pool you bring, because you're a combination of armor 10 everywhere, armor 12 side, open topped, armor 11, and slooooooooooooooooow.
Why are you slow?
If you don't take it slow, you split your army, and you get to eat meltaguns and multi-meltas much, much sooner, plus, you won't be in range of your kustom force field.

Now, I have more guns than just 14 hunter-killers. I bring linked lascannons, autocannons, heavy bolters, regular lascannons from rhino hatches, multi-meltas, and both templates and meltaguns if you get close. Even my bolters threaten your trukks, trakks, and buggies.

Once again, the numbers just don't add up.

This is nowhere near what most people would call a competitive build, either - it's just my standard thing, because most of us aren't made of money.

You have 9 units that can hurt my vehicles.
I have more than 9 vehicles.

If your orks take 9 light vehicles, comparable to what I have, you'll get wrecked very early, because GW hates orks.

They took the best anti-tank weapons, and made your vehicles bad and expensive.

Cobbles said...

1) orks don't get melta, except on their weirdboy.

Neither do dark eldar-doesn't seem to stop them?

2) orks need to use desperate measures to kill tanks.

Erm...not really...rokkit buggies, lootas, boarding planks + klaws, deffrollas etc are hardly desperate...

3) orks cannot realistically kill heavy tanks.

At long range they do sure...same as most armies. How do sisters deal with heavy tanks at long range? Nids (yes tyrannofexes can do it, but it's still a long shot statsitically) etc?


4) orks need large numbers to win combat, but they cannot get to combat unless you put them inside transports that only take a few orks, and have paper defenses.

Erm...battlewagons hardly have paper defences...av14/av 12 and 4+ cover is not exactly weak. They need large numbers? Really? Wow..good job they are 6 points each.

5) orks lack survivability.

Most orks do yeah, which is why they cost 6 points each. Meganobz and nobbikerz are pretty survivable but you pay a price for them.

6) your army is large, and people can easily use pincher tactics to cut it into chunks, and deal with your slow infantry/puny transports at their leisure.

Meh some hordes are large yeah. Some are mounted in 4-6 wagons which cover a 12 inch diameter which is hardly large at all.

7) limited support. You get a maximum of 9 units that can deal with armor and real threats.

Similar to most armies bar marines and IG I guess. Good job orks have units like meganobz and deffrollas that can kill tanks pretty easily outside the shooting phase.

I don't even play orks and the points you are making are so ridiculous its cringeworthy. Stop repeating the tired 'orks suck' spam and actually you know play some games vs good ork players?

Most of you guys here seem to hate the ETC but just to make a point anyways, our SM player for team england (i'm the nid player on the team...) is playing a 2xtermie in LR rock list with decent firepower backup, and hates playing our ork player with BW spam-who himself has no problem against LRs full of termies.

Cobbles said...

My army puts out 14 hunter-killers right away.
Those 14 missiles are going to wreck any motor pool you bring, because you're a combination of armor 10 everywhere, armor 12 side, open topped, armor 11, and slooooooooooooooooow.

Ok so I know you said its 2k, but hey I'll compare against my team mates 1750 BW list.

So, against front armour of wagons (since thats all you'll see when 4-6 are packed together right and you can't move and fire with hunter killers and shooting everything else, hard to get round sides on turn 1 anyway) at BS4 you get 10 hits, say 2 glances, 1 saved by field and 1/3 chance to do anything useful. Not very efficient use of 140 points to me. But wait there's more.

I bring linked lascannons, autocannons, heavy bolters, regular lascannons from rhino hatches, multi-meltas, and both templates and meltaguns if you get close. Even my bolters threaten your trukks, trakks, and buggies.

Ok so my friend has 9 rokkit buggies as well as his 4 wagons. So you are targeting the wagons now or the buggies? Buggies in squads with KFF are actually incredibly resilient to most weapons bar multiple str 8+ shots. Even with open topped the squadron rules + KFF will protect them a lot more than you probably think and if you do shoot them then the wagons are fine and half way across the table, if he went first hes in your deployment zone. Otherwise you eat 9 TL rokkits a turn which will quite happy stun + shake 2-3 tanks a turn.

VT2 said...

Dark eldar gets multiple lances on fast, open-topped skimmers - and these are troops.

Their version of my rhino and your trukk also has a dark lance, or a plasma cannon.

Things that hit on 5's, need 4 to penetrate side on a rhino, and then still only hurt it on 5 and 6 aren't reliable.
Powerfists and klaws are weak anti-tank, because of movement. Movement that will tank shock your boyz into neat files.

Sisters don't need to deal with land raiders at range, because they bring three meltaguns per troop unit, and can use girlpwoer to give themselves storm shields.
Sisters close with you, destroy your heavy tanks, then they hold up nasty units for many, many, many turns, or fold instantly - depending on what the player wants them to do.

Sisters are very, very good - orks are not.

You can't hurt land raiders with ranged attacks, or up close.
Your nobz hit on 6's, cause actual damage on 6's, then destroy it on 5 and 6.

Battlewagons are armor 12. They're so long, you always have a side shot - unless you cover their sides with trukks. Wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!

Armor 12 folds to hunter-killers.

Deathrollars are discussed above.
Meganobz suffer from inflated points-cost, lack of options, and the powerklaw syndrome.

I need to stress this next point...

YOU CANNOT KLAW YOUR WAY TO VICTORY.
Relying on a single dude in a unit of 30 to kill tanks is a desperation move.

I can do that with my marines, too, but I don't need to, because I get meltaguns, multi-meltas, krak grenades, and combi-meltas.
I even get linked lascannons if I feel my melta isn't enough.

What do your orks get?

Kuolema said...

Also melta guns can come on suicide units, power claws don't. You kill a land raider with your nob? termies in land raider kill mob of boyz.
Space marines can get a land speeder with a MM and HF for 70 points. It is faster than any of your orks, no one cares if it dies after doing it's job and it burns orks dead.

Anything riding in a land raider WANTS to get close so being able to kill in in close combat doesn't help you. Land raider also moves faster than your boyz except on one turn if your in range to charge.

Also spreading out doesn't help you if someone tank shocks you with two or three tanks before flaming you. The reason they can do that and not worry about your short range is because if your dead your not shooting and no space marine player cares if their speeders die after roasting orks.

So if one of your shoota boyz is killed by termies the other gets tank shocked into please-template-me formation then gets hit by the speeders and anyone who poped out of their razor backs. You won't have enough boyz left to threaten the termies even if you could get a counter charge off.

They don't even have to tank shock you if they park one transport in your face because after you assault it your already in the perfect position to get templated.

Also your support? The raider doesn't have to zoom forward first turn, it can wait until the blood angel fire power kills enough of your support.

Also after all the maths of killing the wagon with side shots from auto-cannons you forgot that you don't need to kill it to make it useless. single shaken result and it can't shoot, therefore isn't killing anything so can be dealt with later.

Anyway I doubt this makes much sense but I gotta pack since I have a plane to catch. I'll be back later.

VT2 said...

Buggies and battlewagonz?

The buggies can hurt me right away, pretty much, and the wagon takes two turns to get into position.

I waste your buggies, then I pour the rest of my stuff into your meter-long wagon's side armor.

If you keep your buggies in range of your KFF, you won't be reaching my armor, because rokkits are range 24.
That's the thing.

Pick between protection or a shot at taking something important out.

I can reach out and touch you straight away, because I've got a minium range of 36 on all my anti-tank.
Even heavy bolters do well against buggies, trakks, and trukks.

Can't say the same for your dakkaguns, snazzguns, and big shootas versus my rhinos.

Nathan said...

@smurfy

Let's look at Rhinos, a common Mech type thing we need to be killing...

And we'll assume both are within 6" to start so that the Nob can assault and you can get your melta shot. We'll also assume there's no cover saves...

Rhino:

meltagun with BS4:

66.7% chance to hit
vs AV11: 91.7% chance of pen 5.6% for glance
Odds of killing vehicle: 31%

Nob
vs 12" move: 16.5% chance to hit times 4 attacks

83.5% chance to pen

33.3% chance to destroy

Odds of killing vehicle: 18.2% chance

vs 6" move: 50% chance to hit times 4 attacks

83.5% chance to pen

33.3% chance to destroy

Odds of killing vehicle: 55.6% chance of killing vehicle

vs 0" move: 100% chance to hit time 4 attacks

83.5% chance to pen

33.3% chance to destroy

Odds of killing vehicle: .999% chance of killing vehicle.

There's the stats, now get out of the probability pool.

@cobbles, I love you; thanks for joining the fun!

Nathan said...

"You need to consider reality, too."

Funny, I feel the same way...

"I plonk down anywhere from 9 to 14 rhino chassis in a 2000 point game.
That's predators, razorbacks, rhinos, and sometimes even vindicators.
9 to 14 of them."

Weeeee! A bunch of easy to nab KPs. Marine vehicles are tasty KPs whereas big units of marines are not; the more rhino chassis you lay down, the easier it gets.

So, we're at 2k points now? That's fine. I have Snikrot now and the killkannon is dropped to a kannon, and the lootas are only 14 strong, other than that, same list.

What's your list precisely?

VT2 said...

But I invested 5 points in my meltagun, and get the multi-melta for free.
You put 50 into your nob.

Math is nice, but it has very little effect on the realities of the game.

My rhino lets me shoot from the hatch, and that's what I'll do.
A bolter and a multi-melta a turn, or a multi-melta and a meltagun if you're close enough.

You need to run across the field with your nob and his 9-29 dudes, while I can sit comfortable in my little coffin.

Kuolema said...

Mathhammer only goes so far when you don't include all the factors.
What if someone puts an empty rhino right in front of you mob of boyz, what do you do?
Do you assault it and then get hit by whatever templates the marines are packing?
Do you go around it?
What are you going to do about a 35 point transport sitting in front of your orks?

Either way your orks are slowed down so aren't reaching combat with any of the important tanks.

Kuolema said...

kill points kill points kill points kill points kill points

kill points are only in 1/3 games, aka less than half. Most games you play are objective games. Building a list based on kill points nerfs you in most of your games.

Cobbles said...

Dark eldar gets multiple lances on fast, open-topped skimmers - and these are troops

I don't play orks, I play nids, sisters and Dark eldar and I know exactly how they work. And even with 20-30 lances you struggle against walls of AV12 with KFF support. It's roughly 1 pen per 10 lances which still needs to roll a 4+ to do anything.

I don't think you get it, rokkits don't need to blow things up, a BW army is quite happy to to stun/shake your razorback and stop it + squad inside shooting before they deffolla + boarding plank you.

Sisters actually struggle a great against things like predators on the board edge the same way that orks do, bar a bit of luck. Sure you have 3 meltas, but you have to get out to use them leaving yourself vunerable to counter charge. Otherwise you have a single melta out of the fire point. And stormshields only work when they are roughly 6-7 or below, otherwise you get rocked by terminators same as everyone else. Sisters in the open get rocked by orks on the charge full stop.

BWs in a formation can pretty easily cover their own sides unless you are dumb and leave them spread out. Yes you won't stop vendettas and fast tanks getting in their sides and that's when it hurts. Good job they have buggies to shake/stun those.

Like I said before, I don't play orks yet most competant ork players in Europe don't really have a problem with tanks bar AV14 at range, or 3+ LRs/monoliths so meh dono what you guys elsewhere do.

I'm done argueing with you anyway on the topic its like talking to a gramophone. I've stated my points and if you don't agree then fair enough.

Keep up the good work here on 3++ Kirby, it's a decent site and an enjoyable read:).

VT2 said...

I take a cheap HQ, sometimes two.
Three units of sternguard in rhinos or razorbacks.
Two full tactical squads in rhinos, or three to four small ones in razorbacks.
One to three units of assault marines without jump packs, mounted in rhinos.
Three predators, vindicators, or whirlwinds.

That's my army.

If I feel like it, I'll splash points on a command squad, also in a rhino or a razorback, and probably remove some assault marines and their rides.
I like tanks, in case you didn't notice.

What's Snikrot going to do about it?
What are you going to use to get killpoints from my vehicles?

What's your plan of action here?

Me, I plan to hold on bunkering up midfield, since I can shoot your vehicles to death with heavy bolters, autocannons, lascannons, and even regular bolters, so there's no real need to bunker up my melta until mid-game.

Kuolema said...

cobbles for someone who plays dark eldar you sure don't sound like it.
The ONLY unit in an ork army that scares DE are lootas. Night shields and being fast skimmers don't care about your rokits or shootas or any of your other inaccurate short ranged guns.

What is a deff rolla going to do? It has to catch a DE skimmer first.

Nathan said...

"Mathhammer only goes so far when you don't include all the factors.
What if someone puts an empty rhino right in front of you mob of boyz, what do you do?
Do you assault it and then get hit by whatever templates the marines are packing?
Do you go around it?
What are you going to do about a 35 point transport sitting in front of your orks?

Either way your orks are slowed down so aren't reaching combat with any of the important tanks."

What is the mission? Is the rhino contesting an objective? Is it KPs? What's beyond it. How is a 6" model with 8" frontage blocking me from shooting at the tanks beyond with my rokkits? Is there terrain near by? Do I have other units that can kill the Rhino?

Most of your statements are all in a vacuum and most of them seem to be pretty uninformed.

"What are you going to use to get killpoints from my vehicles?"

Well, Snikrot will show up and have a good chance at knocking out a vehicle. There's a one to one KP exchange, unless you bunkered up close to each other, so I could multicharge and get maybe two. Regardless, he'll be a distraction for a turn.

I shoot the vehicles with my lootas and rokkits and lobba the guys that get out. If I need to, I'll move up and assault vehicles for more KPs.

What do you do in Dawn of War?

VT2 said...

And the skimmer has a 3+ special 'I ignore your stupid ram'-save.

Don't forget that.

Nathan said...

"What is a deff rolla going to do? It has to catch a DE skimmer first."

How are the DE dislodging the Orks from objectives with dark lances?

VT2 said...

Snikrot doesn't have a good chance at knocking out a vehicle. He doesn't even have a powerfist.

Why would I clump up against a slow army? I'd deploy for a first turn stand-off, which I'd win, because my guns are just better, and my vehicles are just more survivable, then I'd attack your flanks with my armor.

Snikrot is infantry, and he's the only one you supposedly have on the field.
Now that's an easy killpoint if I ever heard of one.

When I drive off, what's he gonna do? Stand around in a ruin and look pretty?

In dawn of war, I reserve everything, pick to go second, then I get my whole army in the same turn, and still get to unleash all my hunter-killers against you - with some luck. That was an easy question. Got more?

Kuolema said...

Called tank shocks, shreddars, DE lords, and ravangers.

Dark lances are for killing vehicles not mobs of boyz.

AbusePuppy said...

@Nathan
I didn't post all of the mathhammer because it wasn't relevant. I am aware of all of the numbers you listed- yes, I realize what the chances of a Nob getting a pen are, etc. That's not the _point_. My argument was that your nob's strategic inferiority dooms him no matter what his numbers are, because he cannot effectively get into range to make use of his Klaw in time for it to be relevant. Would you call him useful if his Klaw had the text "Can't kill a vehicle until turn 6, but has a 100% chance to do so then" on it? Orks' inability to attack vehicles until they reach melee (short of Lootas) is their crippling weakness.

For the record, Lootas are not bad; they're actually great. I wish my Tyranids had Lootas. I wish my Tau had them. But they aren't enough on their own.

My Tau list at 2K:
Crisis Commander (Fireknife, 2 Gun Drones)
3 Fireknife
3 Fireknife
3 Fireknife
6 FWs
6 FWs
10 Kroot + 4 Hounds
10 Kroot + 4 Hounds
8 Pathfinders + Devilfish (FW's ride)
8 Pathfinders + Devilfish (same)
2 Piranhas (1 w/DP, TA, FB)
3 Broadside (ASS), Leader w/Shield + Gun, TLock
3 Broadsides (ASS), Leader w/Shield + Gun, TLock

With some slight variation on upgrades, but you get the point.


@Cobbles
>At long range they do sure...same as most armies. How do sisters deal with heavy tanks at long range? Nids (yes tyrannofexes can do it, but it's still a long shot statsitically) etc?
'Nids have the firepower to cut the rest of the army out from around the tank and/or shake it in the meanwhile. You can't equate three squads of Lootas to nine HG, two T-Fexes, and 2-3 Heavy Venom Cannons. Tyranid CC tank killing comes in the form of six rerollable (important!) MC attacks, which have a far, far better probability spread than a single Klaw. And, most importantly, THEY DO NOT RELY ON CC TO SUPPRESS VEHICLES. Melee is not a good way to shut tanks down. This is a fundamental point of the argument.

>Erm...battlewagons hardly have paper defences...av14/av 12 and 4+ cover is not exactly weak. They need large numbers? Really? Wow..good job they are 6 points each.

AV12 Open-Topped is pretty fragile- and remember, this is your 100+ pt transport that you have limited access to. 4+ cover partly mitigates this, but as I said, most other armies can consistently claim 4+ cover, so opponents should be assuming it. Autocannons, Long Fangs, etc, will tear you a new one.

>Meh some hordes are large yeah. Some are mounted in 4-6 wagons which cover a 12 inch diameter which is hardly large at all.

Every Wagon you take past the third cuts directly into your anti-tank, and they still are pretty fragile. You've got six Wagons in 2K? That's cool, I've got enough Railguns, Missile Pods, Lascannons, Autocannons, Missile Launchers, Bright Lances, blocking/screening units, and speed to insure that your Wagons never get to deliver their firepower.

>Similar to most armies bar marines and IG I guess. Good job orks have units like meganobz and deffrollas that can kill tanks pretty easily outside the shooting phase.
>I don't even play orks and the points you are making are so ridiculous its cringeworthy. Stop repeating the tired 'orks suck' spam and actually you know play some games vs good ork players?

Lootas and what else now? Deffrollas, like Klaws, are not strategically viable because of the platform- they can't reach vehicles in time for their effect to be useful. (They are better than Klaws in this respect, since they are faster and avoid a lot of the disadvantages, but they aren't enough to tip the balance.)

If you think I'm just repeating the words "Orks suck" over and over again... wait, what are you reading? I have made some pretty clear points in regards to why Klaws and Lootas are not enough anti-tank, why they don't have strategic flexibility, and why their mobility is lacking compared to other 5E mechanized forces. Would you care to respond to some of them?

Kuolema said...

3 rokits from BS2 orks don't scare jack, well more 1-2 with good position of the rhino.
The rhinos don't have to come to you till your lootas and buggies are dead.

Having a 30 man mob of ork boyz and claiming it's anti tank makes no sense.

Nathan said...

"My Tau list at 2K:
Crisis Commander (Fireknife, 2 Gun Drones)
3 Fireknife
3 Fireknife
3 Fireknife
6 FWs
6 FWs
10 Kroot + 4 Hounds
10 Kroot + 4 Hounds
8 Pathfinders + Devilfish (FW's ride)
8 Pathfinders + Devilfish (same)
2 Piranhas (1 w/DP, TA, FB)
3 Broadside (ASS), Leader w/Shield + Gun, TLock
3 Broadsides (ASS), Leader w/Shield + Gun, TLock"

I'd love to show you what my 2k orks can do against this. This list is very similar to the ones run up here.

"AV12 Open-Topped is pretty fragile- and remember, this is your 100+ pt transport that you have limited access to. 4+ cover partly mitigates this, but as I said, most other armies can consistently claim 4+ cover, so opponents should be assuming it. Autocannons, Long Fangs, etc, will tear you a new one."

The math on this doesn't stand up, Neil already ran the numbers for you; Av12 open topped with a 4+ save IS tough. Run the numbers.

"Lootas and what else now? Deffrollas, like Klaws, are not strategically viable because of the platform- they can't reach vehicles in time for their effect to be useful. (They are better than Klaws in this respect, since they are faster and avoid a lot of the disadvantages, but they aren't enough to tip the balance.)"

Why aren't they getting to you in time? 13" move turn one, 13" move turn two; 2" disembark (+base size); +d6" Waagh; +6" assault move = 36-41" movement. The board is literally not large enough for you to be out of charge range of BW-riding units.

I know my army is more unconventional; but BW spam is potent in the right hands. Neil ran the numbers for you as well. About 2 BWs go down per turn; if he had turn one, that means 4 units are arriving unscathed...

Kuolema said...

Because you get to his line you assault kroot, wipe them out. Get shot apart. Assault more kroot and wipe them out. Then get shot apart. Then you assault drones same thing happens.

You already had what 2? battle wagons destroyed/imob/stunned on the first turn and another two blocked by piranhas. You simply can't bring enough orks to threaten his lines.

Nathan said...

"3 rokits from BS2 orks don't scare jack, well more 1-2 with good position of the rhino.
The rhinos don't have to come to you till your lootas and buggies are dead."

It should sure scare a Rhino chassis. Odds say I hit once per turn, and I have a 50% chance to pen, and then a 50% chance to get a result that makes that vehicle either dead or a mobility kill, which is the same thing. Sure that's only a 25% chance roughly per turn, so nothing tremendous; but I have two units that WILL be in range of you on turn one if you bunch up in the middle, so I should get one pen a turn and I should kill one rhino chassis every other turn with my shoota mobs barring cover saves.
On the flip side... How are you killing the buggies and lootas and killa kans all at once especially with cover saves all around?

"Having a 30 man mob of ork boyz and claiming it's anti tank makes no sense."

I'm only claiming it HAS anti tank. Its a versatile unit. Please point me to another unit for 245 points that can do as much as that unit, versatility-wise.

VT2 said...

Tau only has one build.
There's but a single thing that differs, and that's the balance of broadsides versus hammerheads.


Librarian: null zone, the avenger - 100

5 Sternguard: powerfist, 2 heavy flamers, 3 combi-melta, razorback; hunter-killer - 235
5 Sternguard: powerfist, 2 heavy flamers, 2 combi-flamer, razorback; hunter-killer - 230
5 Sternguard: powerfist, 4 combi-melta, razorback; hunter-killer - 220

10 Tactical: powerfist, combi-flamer, meltagun, multi-melta, rhino; hunter-killer - 255
10 Tactical: powerfist, combi-flamer, meltagun, multi-melta, rhino; hunter-killer - 255

5 Assault squad: powerfist, flamer, rhino; hunter-killer - 140
5 Assault squad: powerfist, flamer, rhino; hunter-killer - 140
5 Assault squad: powerfist, flamer, rhino; hunter-killer - 140

Predator: heavy bolter sponsons, hunter-killer - 95
Predator: heavy bolter sponsons, hunter-killer - 95
Predator: heavy bolter sponsons, hunter-killer - 95

This is my 'all-comers' list, but people here say it's a 'Stelek list.'

Armor 12, forced to move slowly so the rest of the army can stay in the powerfield bubble, is not durable.
4+ save?

I get 4+ save for the first turn, and I can give myself a 3+ if I stack my rhinos and predators in front of my razorbacks.

4+ save is adequate protection, but it won't stand up to 18 autocannon equivalent shots a turn, railguns, or even plasma - especially not when the tau remove your cover save using markerlights.

The only thing that can really save you from that is a higher armor value, which you unfortunately don't have access to.

It's once again the orkish numbers that don't add up enough.

VT2 said...

"I'm only claiming it HAS anti tank. Its a versatile unit. Please point me to another unit for 245 points that can do as much as that unit, versatility-wise. "

See my tactical squads above, only they're 10 points more than your boy oceans.

Nathan said...

"Because you get to his line you assault kroot, wipe them out. Get shot apart. Assault more kroot and wipe them out. Then get shot apart. Then you assault drones same thing happens."

14 kroot/hounds are blocking a BW how? Why doesn't he do a line breach as advocated by Bro Lor?

"You already had what 2? battle wagons destroyed/imob/stunned on the first turn and another two blocked by piranhas. You simply can't bring enough orks to threaten his lines."

And he still has two BWs left... As well as 60 boyz just milling on central objectives while you play with his Battlewagons and their contents.

Kuolema said...

Tactical squad in rhino. Shoots tanks, shoots infantry. Holds objectives.

The last part is the only reason people bring tac squads the rest is done better by other units. But a free multi melta is pretty useful.

Ok that rhino example was in response to who ever said slugga boyz charge in and bust up tank lines.

Your 24'' range rokits are easy to avoid until the marine player feels like taking the objectives.
The reason you lose all your buggies and lootas is because they are the only threats so they get shot up first. The buggies aren't even on the table at the start of the game.

Kuolema said...

Look around for puppies battle reports and look how he deploys his tau. That is why you can't do a line breach.

Nathan said...

"10 Tactical: powerfist, combi-flamer, meltagun, multi-melta, rhino; hunter-killer - 255"

Tactical Marines? Are you serious? Tacticals are AWFUL. That squad doesn't have remotely the melee potential of the Shoota Boyz, is outshot by them even discounting cover saves, its about equivalent in anti tank (either at close range with the meltagun compared to Nob with PK or Multimelta compared to rokkits). Also, that's two KPs to my one. Only advantage that unit has is mobility, and even that isn't too much better than what I got.

Alright folks, heading home for the day. I'll be on tomorrow or late late tonight.

-fluger

VT2 said...

It doesn't need to do any mêlée. That's why it has a rhino.

It exists to bunker midfield, projecting a 24 bubble of 'don't go here or risk getting slagged.'

It doesn't need to chop you up, either, because it gets to deploy, rapid fire, then it kills more boyz on your own charge, because of initiative 4.

The point is, I can project a bubble of fear.
I can move around.
I can tank shock your boyz in line, then flame them from inside my rhino.
I can tank shock your stuff off objectives.
I can melta you.
I can rapid fire you.
I can endure and outlast.

What can you do?

Kuolema said...

If you actually read what puppy types you would understand he never says ork boyz are horrible. In fact for 6 points they are awesome.
But they don't enough support.

An ork mob might be better than a tac squad if you only compare the two. But a good marine list is better than a good ork list.
The marines can bring enough support to the field that their tactical can bunker in mid field. Sure tacticals carry multi-meltas or other heavy weapons. But they are not anti-tank, it is token anti-tank. Sure you mayb bag a tank with your tacs but that isn't their job. Speeders/dreads/preds all do anti tank properly.

A lot of ork units on their own are good but they don't combine well into a good army. They suffer with anti tank. They suffer in 5th ed due to bad transports. This is what puppy is trying to explain. He isn't saying shoota are a horrible unit, they just don't have enough support from the rest of their army to be good.

AbusePuppy said...

>The math on this doesn't stand up, Neil already ran the numbers for you; Av12 open topped with a 4+ save IS tough. Run the numbers.

Alright, let's do that. Three Crisis shooting you are nine shots (I'm assuming you aren't withing 12" of me). My standard Markerlight distribution is +1BS/-1 cover, so I'm getting two Plasma, four Missile hits, which yields slightly better than one penetrating. You get a 1/3 chance to save and I have a 5/6 chance of getting a useful damage result (Stunned, Immobilized, Wrecked, Explodes). So each squad of Crisis has better than even odds to cripple a Battlewagon. I have three of them, and two of Broadsides. (Obviously there aren't enough Markerlights to give them to everybody, but the percentages are not grossly skewed for the others- they go from .6 expected effective results to .4 of them.)

In all likelihood, only one of your BWs will be mobile/useful on turn 2, the others having been outright wrecked, blocked off, or variously disabled by the Crisis. That one Wagon will slaughter a line of Kroot, it's true, but that's what Kroot are for. (You can't simply breach my Kroot because I have two lines of them, not just one, and I station my units somewhat apart.)

AbusePuppy said...

>Why aren't they getting to you in time? 13" move turn one, 13" move turn two; 2" disembark (+base size); +d6" Waagh; +6" assault move = 36-41" movement. The board is literally not large enough for you to be out of charge range of BW-riding units.

Because I'm not letting you get two successive turns of movement directly towards me, that's why. I can throw vehicles in front of you to block off your advance. I can distribute firepower to simply stun/immobilize your tanks, since that's all I need to do- keep them in place while I kill everything. Turn 2 is not soon enough- this is what you're not understanding. You are giving me a free turn to play the game however I want, and that is killing your army because I get to be wherever I please and shoot whatever I please with impunity. What happens if I steal the initiative or go first? That's two full turns of shooting with no response. You won't even have any Battlewagons LEFT after that, much less mobile and in my lines.

VT2 said...

Orks rely on their unwieldy units of boyz to kill things, while 9 slots worth of choices support them.
Space marines only bring tactical squads because scouts are so much worse, free multi-meltas are tasty, and you need two troops to build a legal army.

Tactical marines are just another part of the great marine machine.
If you destroy some of them, that's okay. We miss out on meltashots, but that's it.
If you destroy some of the boy mobs, the orks lose significant chunks of their anti-infantry.

The basic boy - cheap though he may be - is not so cheap, because he's not self-contained.
You need to bring expensive specialists to ensure he has a fighting chance - lootas, buggies, walkers, trukks, trakks, wagonz, and so on.

You can easily split the ork army into two components.
One is a large, unwieldy, slow mass of green. This is the 'boyz.' It's there to kill things, and is the ork players primary source of killy.
The other part is made of small, specialized units, that are brought in solely to ensure the boyz get to crumpin'. This is the 'support.'

You take out the support, the boyz become vulnerable, and can no longer crack open tanks, deal with elite infantry, or even some types of heavy infantry.
You take out the boyz, the game is won then and there.

A long time ago, back in the fabled past of 3rd and 4th edition, this is how armies were designed.

AbusePuppy said...

>A long time ago, back in the fabled past of 3rd and 4th edition, this is how armies were designed.

:( Someday my new Tau codex will come, and I will actually be allowed to field Fire Warriors.

VT2 hits on a very strong point, though- Ork armies require specialists to function. This makes them vulnerable, because their specialist units present an obvious "weakest link" that can be cut out of the army, crippling it. Against Marines (other others), killing off a single part of their force should, in a well-designed list, not cripple them. Hurt them, certainly- but if you kill all of the LasPlas Razorbacks, it's not as though the Marines have no way to deal with heavy infantry, they've simply lost their best tool. They still have Multimeltas, Missile Launchers, Las or Plas in other slots, etc. Ork do not have this option; if you kill their Lootas, that is virtually all of their AT.

fester said...

@Nathan

"
Those 29 boyz (lets say their slugga boyz for Neil's sake) have 116 attacks, which hits 19.14 times, which glances 3.16 times. If I roll a six or a five, my odds of taking you out jump considerably; especially if I immobilize you as now the Nob auto-hits.
"

Sorry, nope. Immobilized in CC only works if it was the last movement phase (re-checked night before last about this as I was doing the same thing to a Railhead.)


As a side note, this is a weird argument. I agree with both sides :(

Cobbles said...

No sorry you are wrong.

Attacking a vehicle that is immoblised or was stationary in its previous turn........D6 roll needed ......Automatic hit

Using my English grammar skills, if it meant it had to be immobilised in the previous turn it would have said "attacking a vehicle that WAS immobilised or was stationary in its previous turn..."

Instead it says 'IS immobilised' ie its current present state. And since the nob swings after all the other boyz, the vehicle to him in the present state is immobilised = auto hit.

fester said...

Don't get me wrong, I am happy to be disproven here :) time to re-re-read

Nathan said...

"Your 24'' range rokits are easy to avoid until the marine player feels like taking the objectives"

How are you simultaneously 30.1" away from my rokkits yet within easy access of the objectives that I am on?

"The reason you lose all your buggies and lootas is because they are the only threats so they get shot up first. The buggies aren't even on the table at the start of the game."

The lists proposed don't have a lot of long-range anti infantry shooting. Unless you're shooting railguns and lascannons at my lootas, they'll be fine... Everything comes on later, yes; but doesn't instantly expose itself to fire if it doesn't have to.

"But a good marine list is better than a good ork list."

Regular Marines don't have enough shooting to take down all my bodies before I mulch them. One of the easiest armies for Orks to defeat (and just so happen to be fairly common). If you were talking about Space Wolves or BA, then it'd be another story. Only exception, Pedro-led forces where the tacs are in range of him. Then they're just OK. Even then; no worries.

"VT2 hits on a very strong point, though- Ork armies require specialists to function."

Not really, as I said above, the boyz units can all take down vehicles at need (just on math alone I'm destroying a rhino chassis every other turn with shooting, and getting one pen a turn). In fact, every single unit in my army has the capability of damaging Rhino and Chimera Chassis. Obviously some more than others...

Look, most of the lists I see on here or the types of things proposed as "top tier" lists work well at killing mech and MEq; my list is mostly counter-meta. Your lascannons/multimeltas/plasma guns are all just expensive bolters for dislodging my Lootas or my boyz coming after you. You have very little chance of taking out my lootas AND killa kans before they start doing damage, and, by then, I'm already where I want to be on the board.

Hilariously, re-read that article on whiskey 40k. He makes the same point I'm trying to make in regards to bodies on the board. Its a choice nugget of truth.

At this point, I think you win the war of typing attrition :) You already baffled Neil outta here; and cobbles took one look and skedadled.

I admit I won't be able to convince you of what I have experiened and intrinsicly understand about the game; and you will admit that I have no convinced you to see my position.

Lets just hope to meet up and game so I can show you, and you can show me. And, in the words of Vinzini, "Then we will find out who is right, and who is dead."

Cheers.

-fluger

Nathan said...

Gah! That was Wesley, not Vinzini! Please take my Princess Bride fan club card away now!

SandWyrm said...

Blah, blah, blah... Dirka Dirka, Waaagh!

Do we really need to start up this fight again?

Orks are a predominantly luck-based army. Whatever their weaknesses, they can thump you if they roll well. For which reason I rate them higher than anything except IG, Wolves, and Angels.

Smurfy said...

Find it funny you keep going back to that article with different connotations each time.

I'm sure you guys do well with your Orks.
From what I've seen and played against, Orks have not done well, and I use not very optimized builds of SM Biker Hybrids.

I believe my personal main points are -

1) Most people visualize the game as toe for toe, eye for eye. I do not think necessarily in this way. I think the game is still about positioning, which I see your standpoint there but I don't see how any of this firepower is "reliable" claim math all day, it has never happened in a game.

2) Target Saturation vs. Non Saturation - We have many targets for you to worry about, Orks have comparatively easy to us. And it's easy to decide what to shoot first, you can do your Reserves/Outflank/Whatever tricks you want, a good general will keep a cool head on their shoulders. I'm guessing you do too.

3) This is not a point but just a suggestion - Comparing apples to oranges I realize gets nowhere because I should compare within Codexes, otherwise we get to dumb comparisons, agreed?

So with those considerations input, I think I am tired of this as well, according to all the math wizards I'm very lucky then, since my typical list's "reliable anti-tank" is somehow worse than a Power Klaw, that my "anti-infantry firepower" is actually sub-par compared to all Ork, and that every one of these arguments is a math-based one (Yet still going back to Mike's article saying "Yes it's true, but we're not one of those people."despite continously doing it...See, I knew a guy who thought like this, he was a Salamanders player, who did the math on how the re-rolls from Vulkan would affect his entire army, how it should perform, etc. He still had trouble. I'm not saying I'm any better, but I mostly judge a force by looking at it, not writing a list and saying "Damn, I fit in a lot of X or Y!"

So thanks for the arguments guys, I sense other than AbusePuppy and I tipping our hat slightly towards your side for some points, but this attitude vibe I'm personally getting is "We Orks is best no matter what" from the counter-point and I just can't believe it.

So good day.

VT2 said...

Oh, look at that - we won against the ork defense force.

"Look, most of the lists I see on here or the types of things proposed as "top tier" lists work well at killing mech and MEq; my list is mostly counter-meta. Your lascannons/multimeltas/plasma guns are all just expensive bolters for dislodging my Lootas or my boyz coming after you. You have very little chance of taking out my lootas AND killa kans before they start doing damage, and, by then, I'm already where I want to be on the board."

I don't see any lascannons in my list, or plasma guns.
Just a whole lot of bolters, coffins, meltas, and flamers.

My metagame is 5th edition. Tanks are strong, and slow, large units of infantry are weak.

Counter-meta?
How is you being 'counter-meta' going to prevent you from suffering horribly losses to all my hunter-killers, and make it so your deathrolla wagonz don't blow up when they flatten rhinos with melta-equipped marines in them?

Does 'counter-meta' grant immunity to the combo that is tank shock and flamer templates? You know, after you generously throw 30 of your dudes against one of my vehicles, and it most likely repays you by herding you into formation?

I could go on.

Doesn't matter.

We won. Hurrah.

The_King_Elessar said...

TL;DR

Honestly man, use colour to put your comments in, lest our eyes glaze over. I will return, and try to make sense of this later.

In the meantime, Mercer put up a Tank Shock article, so, if that's good enough, I will be able to quell the raging desire in my head to type such an article of my own!

Brother Loring said...

There is already one here TKE... and from your own employee...

http://kirbysblog-ic.blogspot.com/2010/07/back-to-basics-part-3-tank-shock1.html

Nathan said...

Who'm I kidding? I can't stay away! Final words are just too delicious, and so misleadingly smug. :)

Just wanted to point out that the BW spam list isn't mine...it's Neil's.

@VT2: Your list certainly has no lascannons, but the only thing with range to hit my lootas are the dakka preds and razorbacks (1.7 wounds from autocannons, 3.92 from dakka pred HBs(assuming you don't move and assuming you're within 36" of my lootas), 1.7 from razors: all assuming I don't just go to ground 1st turn since I'd rather be alive later anyway and you'll soon have to be dealing with the shoota boyz). All those HKs are truly awesome at dealing with Mech, but I'm not running Mech. They really won't help you take out my battlewagon unless you move to fire them (since either I deployed first and made sure my front facing was towards your force, or I went first and moved it to not be facing you) so I guess you shoot at the Kans since that's the best bet, or else you shoot them later when other stuff shows up. Full volley of all 11 (and the HBs and autocannon since...why not, again, you're not moving those vehicles or popping smoke now)...let's see.

1.297 dead kans from HKs (since immo is wrecked)
.108 dead from razorbacks
.707 dead from autocannon
.162 dead from HBs
For kicks, lets assume I had first turn and did NOTHING to your army and now am within 24" of your multimeltas...
.163 from them as well

So, your whole army opens up and takes out just 2.437 of my kans. Congrats.

So, either your entire army opens up on my kans and nullifies them, or all the stuff in range of my lootas (again, assuming the HBs are in range and you didn't move) you kill ~8 lootas.

I'm not discounting the effect that has; but; yet again, I didn't need to run the numbers to know intrinsicly that your force wouldn't be able to kill BOTH my lootas and my kans; and those represent your biggest threats in general. I'm defaulting to mathhammer here because you're not seeming to understand how this stuff works; and just saying you kill all my stuff with shooting doesn't make it so. Yes, you COULD get lucky and wipe out both, but odds are against you. And that's with your whole army fully stationary and blasting away with EVERYTHING.

And, at the same time, what do you have that's shooting my Boyz in the middle of the board or advancing at you? Nothing. And they are lobbing rokkits to their heart's content.

Let's flip this around and see what my pitiful Ork anti tank is capable of if I go first?

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and say I somehow couldn't get in range with my rokkits (which, since you deploy second as a reaction to me, isn't out of the realm of possibility, but it also almost assuredly guarantees your heavy bolters are going to be out of range of my lootas, which are now going to be virtually immune to your shooting unlesss you do something so rash as shoot all your HKs at them). For the sake of argument, lets just say somehow you have only front facings of Predators against me and all your rhinos are magically fully hidden behind them (though that is pretty unlikely); but, lets also assume I have range for all my lootas, which, again they might not because you deploy second. So, for this exercise, I'm shooting at an AV11 model with 3+ cover.

Odds say 28 shots/9.324 hits/3.077 pens and 1.524 glances/1.045 pens and .503 glances get through. I just need immo because a vehicle that isn't moving is no threat to me. Also, odds are I'm shooting at razorback, so a weapon destroyed is fine too; but lets just keep it at immo or better. .523% from pens plus .083 from glances totals out at 60.6% chance of getting what I want in turn one. Now, that is against the best possible situation you can muster in terms of being protected from my lootas; and I still have a reasonable shot at taking out a vehicle.

...

Nathan said...

...

Next turn, you either move to get away from my rokkits that will assuredly be in range on my turn 2, or you shoot me. We have seen what you can do with your shooting, so I know my force will be relatively intact on turn 2 and, since I was out of range, I ran turn one, so I'm getting closer to you. Perhaps Snikrot shows up and attacks your stationary vehicles that fired? Perhaps you just used your 2 rhinos to interdict one of my two mobz of boyz. Whatever happened, I'm in good shape (as are you most likely); and now I have tempo and board control.

If you don't shoot and opt to move away, I'm virtually untouched by your army or completely untouched if you moved over 6" Again, you're in the same position as above. Also, on turn two, my fast stuff comes on, and you have new threats to deal with, but you're still left with the dilema to either move your units to avoid my "slow" infantry with 30" anti-tank range; or stay stationary and shoot at me to little effect.

Yes yes, wall of rhinos. This is basic interdiction and I'm familiar with it. Please explain how all the flamers you have are going to be effective. Yes, tank shocking to bunch up...WEEEEEEEEEEE Say you hit 10 Orks with your template, that's just 5 dead Orks. Assuming you have more than one shot on the unit; I take away models from where you can shoot, now you have less shots. Odds are, you have not even taken me down to 10 models, and I don't have to take a test. And since you can't fire a flamer from inside a Rhino (since the template would touch the vehicle), you are now outside the vehicle, and now I'm shooting/assaulting you.

And that is assuming two huge things. 1. I'm dumb enough to assault a rhino wall for no reason. 2. That you were in range to tank shock me or move up to fire a flamer. Which, since you all assume you'll be out of range of my rokkits, seems contradictory.

And all this effort to kill a unit of boyz? Awesome, now you are DEFINITELY in range of my assaults and most of your stuff is out of vehicles.

Everything you are presenting to me is so rudimentary. But, perhaps I'm missing something. Please astound me.

-fluger

Cyklown said...

Good article, fun to see a rational debate on anything at all for a change.

I really, really liked the ending points of "if your lists are better, why aren't you pwning more?" point that was made. It was something I ran into constantly when I made magic. The ability to make a list (or deck), and the ability to play it are two separate skillsets. I was always better at making and tuning a deck than I was at playing. The same goes with a lists.

That being said, my main thoughts were: Abuse Puppy lives in Corvallis? I'm really sorry about that. I mean, it's still part of the Pac NW, so it's still better than most alternatives, but... ew. Corvallis. That's almost as bad as Salem!

VT2 said...

That's some nice theoryhammering you have going up there, and completely focused on me being stupid, you getting to control my deployment, and you deciding who gets to go first.

It still doesn't change anything.

Orks aren't competitive, and never will be with their current book.

Nathan said...

How does it do either of those things, VT2? I'm giving you the best case scenario possible for my lootas shooting you (other than you hiding all your vehicles out of LoS or out of range or both).

I'm giving you the best case scenario for killing either lootas OR killa kans on turn one.

What would you do differently? We'll run the numbers again at that point.

And no one here has effectively explained how I can be out of range to shoot your vehicles with rokkits yet can, at will, contest objectives and drive deep enough into my units to bunch them up with multiple tanks.

"Orks aren't competitive, and never will be with their current book."

You saying that means nothing.

VT2 said...

But it does mean something.
If it didn't, orks would crush, kill, and destroy all opposition, and I have yet to see that happen, hear about it, or even be told scary stories of it happening.

I see orks getting worn down by marines, guardsmen, tau, sisters of battle, and even chaos marines.

They just don't have the tools necessary to tackle all the vehicles, or the bodies that it would take to endure all the firepower of more modern, competitive armies.

How about you address all the points made above, instead of pretending to be big, bad, and green? Theoryhammer and mathhammer are nice, but they don't help you address everything that's been said.

I find it interesting that you focus so hard on my marine list, which I even highlighted wasn't even that competitive, or even all that good.
Even then, against a regular marine army, your theoryhammer orks are struggling to put out the numbers necessary to handle things.

Nathan said...

What are you talking about? Who's not answering who (whom?)? No one has explained how they stay away from my units, yet also tank shock. All I hear is stuff like what you just said. None of that is backed up by any raw data; just conjecture. Give me lists and tactics and numbers to back up why and how they would work.

I'm not pretending to be anything; my record on the battlefield is out there (www.tshft.com); I've never claimed to be unbeatable; just that I am a good general and that this list can win against lists I see here.

I'm not focusing on your list in particular. Just responding as I go. You said your list would do X, I went through the math to show you it wouldn't. That was not theoryhammer, it was mathhammer. Please show me a scenario in which that particular list does anything better than either kill the Kans or do ~8 wounds on the lootas while being stationary.

I'm not theorizing anything other than to present you with options. Either you stand still to fire more or else you move to get away from rokkits and close combat ability. Those are your options. Sure you can do stuff like interdict with Rhinos and such; but that's moving CLOSER to me. I'm showing you through the magic of statistics that despite your claims to the contrary, that list has very little chance of doing significant damage to my army through shooting. I made the point of stacking the deck in your favor.

Abusepuppy made the point that Orks can't react to advanced tactical ploys; my contention is I am controlling the pace of the game from the outset.

I'm not answering all the conjecture and opinions with no data backing them up, just going after the ones that I think are most egregious.

"If it didn't, orks would crush, kill, and destroy all opposition, and I have yet to see that happen, hear about it, or even be told scary stories of it happening."

Like how Tau and Space Marines are just tearing up the tournament scene? Oh wait, we discount tournament results; so how do we judge the efficacy of lists again?

The_King_Elessar said...

Well, normally, however shouts the loudest gets to decide what armies are crap...but I don't think Kirby wants it settled that way... :/

I want more spatial arguments!

(I haven't read the whole post yet, or more than half the comments - really, VERY long for one sitting...BUT I saw a question asked RE DoW deployment. As far as i'm concerned., losing out on a turn of shootnig is MORE than adequate trade-off for the Orks losing TWO turns of movement[starting 12" further back, as they will.] )

Nathan said...

"(I haven't read the whole post yet, or more than half the comments - really, VERY long for one sitting...BUT I saw a question asked RE DoW deployment. As far as i'm concerned., losing out on a turn of shootnig is MORE than adequate trade-off for the Orks losing TWO turns of movement[starting 12" further back, as they will.] )"

What if I win the roll to go first? I can put two 30 strong squads 24" up and spread across most of the board, with a small trailing line of boyz back to my table edge to take advantage of the KFF when it comes in. Yes, the lootas won't shoot turn one, but they'll be shooting turn two.

Then again, your army of choice is Eldar, correct? Its a different ball of wax, and a much tougher cookie than Space Marine lists.

AbusePuppy said...

grumble grumble ate my friggin' comment grumble grumble

The_King_Elessar said...

In that case, Nathan, (as Marines, to be fair) I will (and let's assume KPs, because it's difficult enough to accurately predict) see your deployment, and, likely, choose to Reserve the greater part of my list.

I imagine whatever Predators I have will roll on 12" and smoke. They will be hull-to-hull, and angled to prevent side shots...maybe one in front as a prong, so it's the only smoker. Any Walkers will follow in their wake, shielded by the AV13 and LOS block they provide, while the rest hangs back. Even though you will certainly have the models to block my board edge you cannot afford to be so reckless in your approach, and I will be able to refuse (hopefully) at least 2/3 of the board by coming on incredibly narrow. Speeders will Deep Strike, with every intention of neutralising those Lootas, whatever he cost, as then I can drive my Predators straight into you - one rarely mentioned [potential] benefit of Tank Shock is to prevent your nob getting into combat with my Dreadnoughts and Tacticals (ideally) following in my wake, and ensure you will not bring down the Walkers with the few Attacks there that matter to me. Fearless is great against shooting, but not when you start losing combat, after all.

Kuolema said...

Ok nathan first up, lootas get shot before kans. No one should be shooting kans before lootas. Second up if you go to ground with your lootas obivously no one will keep shooting them since they aren't doing anything on your turn and are no longer a threat.

The reason people can stay away from your boyz at the start of the game and then tank shock flamer you later. Is because mech is much more mobile than foot. So marines can just ignore your boyz till your support is dead and THEN tank shock you into please-template-me-formation.

That is why your list isn't competitive, it has no target saturation. It is way too easy to take one look at your army. Know what the threats are and what to shoot first and what to avoid till later.

If your buggies or trucks come on the board and hide out of sight from the marine guns then there is a very good chance they won't be able to threaten the marines until the move out into the open. Relying on lucky placment of terrain does not make an army competitive.

You split your forces up too much. You have 60 boyz, mek and 3 kans advancing to hold middle objectives with lootas and grots in the kil-kanon wagon sitting back near objectives in your home deployment area. Your trucks. buggies and stormboyz come on from reserve so won't be on the table till turn 2-4. Some bad reserve rolls could fuck you over completely. No top tier list should leave so much to chance.

Nathan said...

"The reason people can stay away from your boyz"

To be out of range of my rokkits, you need to be 30.1" away at the end of your movement. It will take you three turns to get to that point in a normal vehicle. So, if I'm on a central objective at the top of turn two (pretty easily done); you'll have to start moving for it on the bottom of turn two to contest/tank shock in turn 5. And you'll be moving 12" a turn to do it. So, again; unless you're mech BA and can move 12" and shoot; you're spending only 2 of 5 turns shooting at me to your full potential.

Either that or you let me be in range of my rokkits and take my shooting from an earlier turn.

Please template me formation? Ok, so my units are spread out about 2" apart depth wise. To bunch them up, you'll have to go more than 6" deep into my unit (1" base, 2" spread, 1" base, 2" spread, 1" base = 7"), meaning that you would've had to have started your movement phase at least 5" from my units to do that in any really effective way. And then, when you did, with two tanks I might add, You have bunched up a maximum of 9 Orks. If you hit them with a heavy flamer, that's 6 dead Orks. WEEEEEEEEEEEEEE. If you have a second flamer type; that's fine, because, guess where I'm taking casualties from? The bunched up part.

But, all that doesn't answer the question of: if you started within 6" of me, why didn't I charge you in my turn?

Unless you're flying around with 18" move vehicles like BA or Eldar (who do it better); what you're describing is a TERRIBLE strategy against a spread out Ork force.

I don't freaking care how fast YOU are, when I'm where you need to be. You are coming to me in an objective game. What is so hard to figure out here?

So he shoots my lootas first? Great, 8 dead and I probably break on Ld7. Now, he didn't move and depending on who had first turn; I'm definitely in range with all my rokkits or else snikrot is inbound somewhere to hit unmoving vehicles.

The killa kans being alive is a huge issue since he can't tank shock them away and they cleave through all his units in melee. Plus they are even better at shooting rokkits.

TKE: How long are your predator models? I'm not an expert, but I believe they are about 5 inches long. If you put them end to end in the spearhead formation, You'd only have room for the dreads behind, correct? Leaving the rest of your vehicles exposed? They'd also have a hard time not presenting their flanks to my rokkits which started up 24". With smoke, it's only a 25% chance of pen, but why not.

Deepstriking landspeeders I counteract by leaving stuff in a bubble around the lootas, most likely stormboyz.

Honestly, these kind of situations are best thought out with full army lists present and us determining who goes first and such. Helps to know what we're doing.

The_King_Elessar said...

Agreed. I'm not honestly even sure what I would field as Marines at 2k.

It would help if I finished painting my Marine army, perhaps...then I'd be less reluctant to play that size of game as them. lol

I'm happy to admit I could do with more SM practice, I'm no expert with them. Yet.

Chumbalaya said...

Jesus is this still going? I kept out because I don't like arguing with a brick wall (durr hurr Orks is da best).

Why is there no Marine or Tau defense force? Because they don't need one. We know Marines and Tau are good, Orks are the only army that requires a bunch of internet loudmouths reminding us how awesome they are (pro tip: they aren't).

http://www.sonydefenseforce.com/

Gee, what a surprise, the shittiest console on the market also has a defense force. Funny how "defense force" means "la la la I can't hear you".

Nathan said...

I didn't choose the name! :) Talk to tasty. In retrospect, had I known there was this much e-drama involved in the whole thing; I'd've stayed away, and had less OCD induced stress. But, it just so happens I have enough time to post and I can't help myself for getting dragged into debates like this. (http://xkcd.com/386/)

How am I an internet loudmouth? By what definition? That I do guest posts on a blog about once a week? That I respond to articles like the above? Have I been rude in any way? Is it because I post long posts?

Funny, because I feel like I'm arguing with a brick wall (durr hurr Orks suck). I readily admit that we both have a paradigm that the other is not going to alter without extended proof on the field; but at the same time, if I can respond to things that can be proven/disproven by way of statistics/sense.

What I hear is a bunch of people that don't have the technical acumen to assess the quality of an army that they probably haven't seen run well before.

When blanket statements like, "I stay out of range until I want to go contest/tank shock" and don't even understand that that would take 3/5ths of the game to move the distance you're proposing; I can't take what is proposed seriously.

When one says, "you will be in template me formation" and don't understand that one is not going to be killing a lot of orks and one would've put themselves in danger the turn previously; I can't take what is proposed seriously.

When one keeps harping on mobility without understanding that the position my army puts one in is to come to me; I can't take what is proposed seriously.

When one simply assumes that their shooting will kill anything and everything they want whenever, they want simply because I am an Ork; flying in the face of probability and logic; I can't take what is proposed seriously.

When one discounts tournament experience and tournament results out of hand because it doesn't fit into their paradigm; I can't take what is proposed seriously.

And finally, I don't think Orks are the best codex, nor do I think this list is the best list ever, its simply a good list backed by a good general that has proven itself (to anyone who cares about tournament wins) for over 2 years in a large city with a big gaming base.

I'm perfectly happy to acknowledge that BA, IG, and probably SW are tougher dexes in general; and each has builds that give me a hard time. I'm happy to acknowledge that I could've started from scratch and made a better list (more kans, more buggies, meganobz) out of even the Ork dex.

What I AM saying is that the list I have is effective and can handle, if not dominate, the lists that I've seen proposed here and a lot of the myriad YTTH-approved Netlists that get brought to the shop or tournament that I've seen and beaten. I feel like most of them are stuck in 4th edition (like the advice to split up my lootas into 3 units of 5, brilliant, now instead of one KP, its three! Glad you guys are handing out "pro tips") with an eye towards VP capture. I played VP exchange for years, and this list runs on similar concepts; but with an eye at KP and objective holding.

AbusePuppy said...

@Nathan:

You combining two different tactics together, that's where the mistake is. Turn 1-2, the mechanized force will stand back and shoot you from where you can't reach them- and they may even move into range of _one_ of your Boyz squads, because they know they can weather that fire (25% chance of a kill/immob, remember). As the game reaches turn 3, or possibly earlier, depending on how quickly they have whittled your Orks down, they will advance forward with the intent of killing your Boyz en masse or contesting your objectives. (Presumably they will have at least one objective in their side of the field as well, so hold one, take one, contest one is a strong plan.)

Also keep in mind that if you spread all your Boyz 2" apart in preparation for flamers, you leave yourself in danger of being charged and unable to effectively retaliate. Several times I have ambushed a squad of Boyz and avoided engaging the Nob for 1-2 rounds of combat because he (and a lot of other Boyz) were on the other side of the squad, far enough away that the 6" pile-in didn't get them into the fight.

>Deepstriking landspeeders I counteract by leaving stuff in a bubble around the lootas, most likely stormboyz.

...What? You're going to leave one of your few fast units back, effectively "killing" them, in order to form a mediocre protection for your Lootas? I am severely confused. Bubblewrap units are effective at what they do because they are cheap and disposable; Stormboyz are neither of those things.

AbusePuppy said...

@Chumb
Please try not to trod down that path. Whatever we may think of the opposition, I'm trying to keep things civil here. After all, we know how successful all of the debates on YTTH have been, right? :\

>When one keeps harping on mobility without understanding that the position my army puts one in is to come to me

Obviously they have to come to you, but they do so on THEIR terms and when and where they decide. Orks that don't get the charge are often Orks that lose a fight.

>When one discounts tournament experience and tournament results out of hand because it doesn't fit into their paradigm; I can't take what is proposed seriously.

No one is discounting tournament results; rather, we (or at least I- I can't speak for everyone) that tournament results alone are not meaningful. Neither is theoryhammer. Nothing, by itself, is perfect evidence. I can propose explanations for why Orks have been winning tournaments, and I basically did in my first article- 40K is not played at a high level yet by... well, more than a handful or so of people around the globe. There are definitely people who I would rank as good generals, but that isn't the same thing. We are still in an emergent era of 40K tactics, so being at the top of the game is not the same thing as having reached the theoretical peak of improving an army/playstyle. Six hundred years ago there was a "best chess player" and people who were good by the standards of the day, but measured objectively (on a scale all across chess' history), the tactics of the time were undeveloped and comparatively crude.

>I'm perfectly happy to acknowledge that BA, IG, and probably SW are tougher dexes in general; and each has builds that give me a hard time

Then all we disagree on is a matter of degrees; I would rank several other codices above Orks, although I would not rank them at the bottom. (I think they come out ahead of Necrons, CSM, Daemons, and Daemonhunters [bar the "all allies, no DH versions], and possibly Dark Eldar as well depending on the point total.) I have never said Orks are the worst current codex. I have never said they are unplayable. I have only said that, as the game advances towards its endpoint, their options and strengths dwindle.

Nathan said...

"Also keep in mind that if you spread all your Boyz 2" apart in preparation for flamers, you leave yourself in danger of being charged and unable to effectively retaliate."

The Nob is in the second line. I usually run my boyz Roughly 7 or 8 wide and 4 ranks deep. Nob in the center means that he SHOULD be able to be within 2" of an engaged model. 2" spread between all of them means from the center line column (assuming 7 wide for ease), I am 8" from base of the furthest model. Shouldn't be a problem.

"As the game reaches turn 3, or possibly earlier, depending on how quickly they have whittled your Orks down, they will advance"

And that's precisely when all my fast reserve units start showing up, and now that you're moving forward, you have reduced firepower... See how that works? In addition, the odds I proposed above in that scenario vs that marine list means that I'm very likely to have very little lost in the way of units.

"You're going to leave one of your few fast units back, effectively "killing" them, in order to form a mediocre protection for your Lootas?"

What is killing them? They are positioned in between lootas and my foot sloggers that start 24" up. They have a 4+ cover save, and are spread thin. The shoota boyz are definitely in range of things and are an immediate threat. Target saturation. Honestly, in DoW, I have enough models that I usually can cover most of 1/2 of a board. There really shouldn't be any where for land speeders to even land.

"40K is not played at a high level yet by... well, more than a handful or so of people around the globe."

I think the difference between chess and Magic and 40k is that there is a lot more that goes into the game than just the game. I think what you are proposing is not realistic for 40k.

In any event, the way that chess got better was more games were played. Going to more and more tournaments is the only way to get better, because you're going to be exposed to a wide variety of people and lists.

"Orks that don't get the charge are often Orks that lose a fight."

True, but only against dedicated melee troops am I truly concerned. And even then, I often absorb the assault and then counter attack.

Well, speaking of Orks, I gotta paint 'em... I'll probably be back on waaaay later or even Monday.

The_King_Elessar said...

In the interest of clarity - I despise Victory Points, and largely ignore Kill Points when building lists, because I believe the acquisition of them is FAR more important than any consideration of what I can conceded - and that is something dependant upon generalship (esp. Target Priority) and Luck, not at all relevant to List. DH armies that are all in raiders may not have many KPs (to be extreme, ofc) but they can't get very many either, and with my Eldar, at least, I think I could (fairly) reasonably table them, and void the question.

Upon reflection, btw, if I were Blood Angels I would be charging YOU by turn 2 in DoW. :p

(And if I were Marines, I'd be as likely to be BA, as they are what I plan to run my Raven Guard as, and I intend to have an actual BA army tooo...)

Kuolema said...

It's not 30'' it's less depending on what side of the unit your opponent deploys on and where your rokits are deployed in your unit and what side your other unit is on. It's not hard to use one of your 30 man units to get in the way of the other.

3 rokits don't scare much at all. They can also only shoot at one target.

It depends on the army. Fast armies can tank shock you with multiple vehicles from outside your charge range. Slower armies WANT you to charge their cheap transports because it saves them ALOT of effort by bunching your whole mob up for them. You don't tank shock a mob of boyz with just one vehicle you use multiple and multiple flamers.

I undertsand you foot slog your orks into the middle to try and claim an objective your opponent wants so that your slow speed doesn't matter. But the part you don't understand is your opponent chooses when to engage your mob of boyz and will do so on their terms not yours.

You keep claiming all this experiance with orks but some of your statements make me wonder. I also wonder if you have ever played someone who didn't just deploy straight infromt of you and shoot you till you reached them.

Btw you orginal list didn't have mr sneaky ork but he doesn't change much. If your lucky he will get one tank or if your opponent is smart he will show up and die. He isn't a bad choice, he is pretty good. But kommandos are nothing special and they compete with lootas. Orks do have some good units but they just don't combine well into a good army.

Kans are easy to kill before the get into melee, they aren't any faster than your boyz. So they aren't a threat at the start of the game. 3 BS3 rokits is not bad but it's not great.

Nathan said...

"Kans are easy to kill before the get into melee, they aren't any faster than your boyz."

First off, we switched to 2k lists to compare, that's where Snikrot came in, second of all, did you see the stats I ran above? If he fires all 11 HKs and every single thing in his army at my Killa Kans, he nets 2.5... They are absolutely NOT easy to kill when in KFF range. Please back up statements like the above with stats.

"I also wonder if you have ever played someone who didn't just deploy straight infromt of you and shoot you till you reached them."

Actually, a lot marine players judiciously use reserves to come on when needed and to avoid my firepower. One of our best Marine players uses an army that almost always deploys in full reserve. I'm not judging the tactics' efficacy at the moment, but I am fully cognizant of other forms of deployment.

"You don't tank shock a mob of boyz with just one vehicle you use multiple and multiple flamers."

I'm quite familiar with the concept; but its not a good tactic. You're using a ton of units in order to do minimal damage to a huge unit of boyz, who are now in range to charge your vehicles and troops if they got out.

Cheap transports yes, but one of two things are going on here; either the squad got out somewhere and is now being lobbaed or shot at with shootas and the empty transport is tank shocking; or else its full of a unit so assaulting it nets me the vehicle and the unit inside if I wreck it (since you should be surrounded.

That's not even taking into account that if you multi tank shock, then I will multi-assault your tanks.

"3 rokits don't scare much at all."

Just like most of the incoming fire I'm recieving as well. Seriously, look at the stats of what that army is capable of doing, damage-wise, while on the move and you'll see most of my army should be intact.

My units aren't bunching up because I'm maintaining my formation.

"It's not 30'' it's less"
My mobz are roughly 17" wide, and the rokkits are deployed off-center to the edge (since kans are in the middle); meaning that from the furthest boy on the tip of the formation to the first rokkit it is about only 3" 27" still retains this issues of needing three turns of movement from any normal tank to contest an objective.

@TKE
"Upon reflection, btw, if I were Blood Angels I would be charging YOU by turn 2 in DoW. :p"

Absolutely; BA are a totally different ball of wax and have several tough configurations. Either I'm dealing with truly mobile vehicles (since they can move 12" to stay away and lose no firepower); or I'm dealing with lots of assault units with FnP (which counter-acts my volume of fire damage dealing); or I'm dealing with a bunch of combat dreads that have the potential of wiping out a whole mob of boyz in one assault (had it happen to me!); or I'm dealing with a mix of all!

BA, in general, are the worst match up for my Orks.

Da Warboss said...

I was rather amazed they said Big Guns were so bad. What are you kidding me? Buying a lot of very cheap guns with BS 3 plus a reroll for Ammo runts will whack the hell outta a lot of Rhinos/Chimera. Twin Loota squads followed up by Lobbas for pinning barrage from behind total cover work quite well. in fact, Lobba's may be the perfect solution for stopping teh cheese that is Thunderwolves....

Da Warboss said...

On a side not, if you're willing/allowed to play Imperial Armour 8 rules, lol, orks will thrash anybody. I used just two of those Lifta-Droppa battlewagons in our 63K Apoc game last week, and accounted for three land raiders, a dreadnought and a rhino (dropped the rhino ON the dread). The 15 Grot tanks with 33 Grotzooka templates made short work the of space wolves. The 19" deff rolla attacks with Junkas (with built in KFF) were great....not a single ork vehicle from my 3K was lost. That book so needs to be canon in the next ork dex (Yay, take a painboss HQ, and you no longer need to let Grotsnik's madness fhek over your 30-ork 'ard boyz mob)

Kirby said...

Kannons have their place but they do have an opportunity cost. Lobbas? No. You take away from your already meh anti-tank for more anti-infantry that's only so-so? Why does no-one take Whirlwinds or anyother artillery besides Manticores or Medusas? Because it sucks at anti-tank whilst Manticores & Medusas can and will destroy tanks and infantry alike.

Nathan said...

What lobbas do that kannons don't is that they can hit stuff that's out of LoS. Manticores can be hit that are hidden by lobbas as the side armor 10 is vulnerable to the potential 3 S5 hits, and I only need a glance to keep it from firing for a round, which is all I need.

Beyond that, popping a rhino and dropping the templates on the survivors all bunched up will net you quite a few hits at high strength.

Causing more pinning is really good.

Being able to HIDE is really good too.

Did I mention that they are only 81 points with two ammo runts?

I can count on one hand the number of times my lobbas have done nothing useful in a game. And I can think of numerous times in which they were game-breakers for me.

Kirby said...

I can count the number of times Orks have beaten me when I've been using a good list but that isn't going to help this argument is it?

You take Lobbas instead of BWs/Kanz/Kannonz and you've got less anti-tank or saturation. You then have less anti-tank so the actual chance of them dropping templates on a clumped disembarked squad is reduced. You don't need to more anti-infantry or to hit stuff out of LoS as an Ork player, you need to slow and stop mech reliably. You can shake that Manticore but not reliably. That Manticore can screw over any part of your army. Wee bit of a difference.

It's great that Lobbas are cheap but it doesn't help the Ork army with anti-tank and especially since you aren't taking multiple Lootas, sure peg me with 3x S5 barrage, I'll take out your actual significant anti-tank and move on.

Da Warboss said...

I can count the number of times IG have beaten me when I've been using a good ork list...and that's on no hands. What's your point? Armor is not as hard for orks to deal with as people think. Ad a matter of fact, I'd go so far as to say my orks almost always win or at least draw, vs many opponents. NOVACOn just goes to show peeps low opinion of orks are off.

AbusePuppy said...

Oh yeah? Well I have an infinite number of wins with Necrons and have never even lost a single model and I have porn stars begging me to do them at all hours of the night and day.

Internet bragging doesn't really prove anything. I don't care how many games you've won unless you can tell me _why_ you won.

Kirby said...

Should say "on one hand" the above post. And you're right Warboss, it means nothing. Good thing that's what I said, too.

Touting your W/L/D does...nothing. Hey it's like the point above. It shows that you play against people who don't really get the game. Thanks to 5th edition 40k is actually balanced to a pretty good degree in relation to the top armies. If I took one of my armies and played it against another good player with a good army 100 times, I would expect the W/L/D ratio to be non-significant on a Chi-test (i.e. W=L=D). Sure, if I kept track of my overall W/L/D in 5th edition it might be heavily weighted to W and others might be heavily weighted to L but that means diddly about how good an army is but rather how good that person is as a general and the type of individual they play against. Against players who are good like Smurfy or Vinsanity the W/L/D for all of us is very close to equal because we all know the game, are good generals and run good lists.

Against sub-optimal lists or generals who are less skilled/don't understand 40k as much, the W/L/D ratio is inflated in the W favor. Doesn't mean I'm awesome or my list is the best, just shows the type of players/lists I play against.

If you want to tell me you can deal with 10+ tanks with Orks reliably, go for it. I'll stand by the math and experience and blunt your offensive and anti-tank and gain board control. Orks are good enough if you don't do this, they can and will roll right through you. But blunting them is a lot easier than against other armies who can put more high priority targets on the table and more reliably drop opponents. Other armies can recover a lot easier from a setback than Orks can. See Dash v Stelek's friendly at NOVA.

Speaking of NOVA, Dash was the only Ork to do well. Does this mean Orks are good now?

Nathan said...

Here's a bat report against willydstyle who posts on YTTH. I played him this weekend. Its part of a ginormous bat rep I wrote up for Blood of Kittens.

"Anyway, met up with willydstyle who had indicated a desire to get a game in with me. word on Ordo is that willy is a stellar general who epitomizes all that is good in the "competitive" community. Was looking forward to this game!

Here's his list:

Inquisitor Murdur and Steel Legion company 1864

70 Primaris Psyker

90 CCS 4x Melta Guns
65 Chimera w/ multilaser, heavy stubber, hull heavy flamer

145 Vets w/ 3x plasma guns, demolitions
65 Chimera w/ multilaser, heavy stubber, hull heavy flamer

145 Vets w/ 3x plasma, demolitions
65 Chimera w/ multilaser, heavy stubber, hull heavy flamer

50 Platoon Command Squad w/ 4x grenade launcher
55 Chimera w/ multilaser, hull heavy flamer

70 Platoon Infantry Squad w/ missile launcher, grenade launcher
65 Chimera w/ multilaser, hull heavy bolter, heavy stubber

70 Platoon Infantry Squad w/ missile launcher, grenade launcher
65 Chimera w/ multilaser, hull heavy bolter, heavy stubber

160 Manticore

160 Manticore

225 3x Hydra flak tank

140 Devil Dog w/ smoke launcher, hull multi-melta

140 Devil Dog w/ smoke launcher, hull multi-melta

150 2x plasma cannon armored sentinels


Looks potent to me!

We rolled up mission/deployment and got Spearhead/Annihilation. Kill points is probably the best mission for me as all those Chimera chassis are easier to net than most of my KPs.

willy won the first roll and elected to go first to try and damage the crap outta me. He took a quarter with good area terrain (probably to deny it to me) and with good LoS to the other quarter. He deployed two of his infantry platoons on the edges of the table in order to deny me Snikrot charges on his artillery units. He put his empty Chimeras near his long table edge and as far to the center as possible. He put his armored sentinels near his short table edge as near the center as possible. Near them heading towards the center of his forces was the Company Command Squad and Chimera then the Devil Dogs. Over by the empty chimeras was the Platoon Command Squad and Pskyer. The Hydras were in the middle and the Manticores behind them. He left his two vet squads in reserve.

I did my standard leave buggies, trukk boyz, stormboyz, and Snikrot in reserve; as well as the gretchin, who had no purpose inside the battlewagon and who should just stay out of the way! I put my Battlewagon mostly in the middle with the big mobz flanking it and the kans in front of it. I had my lobbas up close in cover (I screwed up and didn't realize there was a door in the ruins allowing willy to see them) and put my lootas in, more or less, the backfield of my deployment zone and in a ruin with good line of sight.

I tried to steal the initiative so I could do some damage with the lootas, but failed.

willy started out by moving a little on my right flank with the armored sentinels and CCS and devil dogs. As well, he moved up with his PCS and Psyker. He unloaded the hydras at the lootas who went to ground and lost a few guys. Then he blew up my battlewagon with a manticore shot. The PCS and Pskyer killed the lobbas, and the rest of his shooting did little. He was up 0 KP to 2.

My first turn I ambled forward at the elements of willy's army that had moved up. I took some shots, nothing worked. Still down 0 KP to 2

Nathan said...

willy failed to get his reserves in, but started shooting me more. His hydras shot the lootas again, who went to ground again, but lost enough models and ran away. He shot at the killa kans with the devil dogs and manticores, killing one and shaking another. The PCS and other units took shots at the big mob heading up my upper left flank at his PCS squad; they killed a few boyz, but there were still enough to be fearless. 0 KP to 3.

I got Snikrot, the buggiesthe stormboyz, and a trukk in from reserve. The grots came in as well and I moved them into cover to hide. I move Snikrot and his boyz to set up a combo charge against infantry and the two Chimeras on willy's long table edge. I moved the trukk boyz up and disembarked, hoping for a good waagh roll to get me into range with his other infantry platoon (which he had moved down the map to further block Snikrot). I moved the stormboyz up to get an assault on the CCS chimera and potentially sandbag with the sentinels. Most of my force was in range to now assault the PCS chimera and the two devil dogs. My shooting killed a sentinel with my buggies and the PCS chimera with the shoota boyz. I got a good Waagh roll for both the trukk boyz and the Kommandos; and I assaulted. I assaulted the PCS squad and the Psyker with the shoota boyz and wiped them out. My kommandos flubbed their attacks on the infantry, but stun locked the two chimeras. My kans immobilized one of the devil dogs as well as stopped it from firing. The other shoota boy squad stunned the other devil dog. The trukk boyz wiped the infantry platoon and spread out. The stormboyz stunned the CCS chimera. While I didn't take out all the vehicles like I wanted, I was now in a position to take them out in his turn, as well, since I was next to his alive vehicles, he couldn't put templates on them. 4 KP to 3 KP

willy got both of his vet squads in and moved them to deal with the shoota boy squad that had taken out his PCS squad and be in a position to take out my kommandos. He used his flamer on his manticore on my trukk boyz as well as the hydras, I went to ground and had a Nob left with one wound (passed the morale check)! The other manticore shot at my buggies and trukk, but only killed one buggy and stunned the trukk. His vets lit up my shoota boyz and wiped em. His armored sentinel charged my stormboyz to pull them off the vehicle and the Nob killed the sentinel. My kans blew up the chimera. The Kommandos wiped the infantry platoon and damaged one of the chimeras again. My shoota boyz blew up the other devil dog and suffered from the explosion. 8 KP to 4 KP

My turn saw the other trukk boyz squad show up and move up to assault the stunned CCS chimera. The stormboyz jumped at the hydras to assault them. The kans moved up to shoot at whatever they could, the remaining shoota boy squad moved towards the CCS chimera. The kommandos moved to deal with those chimeras up there. My shooting was pretty ineffective. I assaulted. The kommandos turned both chimeras into boxes but didn't kill either. The CCS chimera was blown up. Two of the three hydras were wrecked. It was now 9 KP to 4 KP.

Turn 4 saw willy trying to get the stormboyz with a tank shock and then some shooting from the vet squad's chimeras. They survived and passed morale and were set to take out the manticores, who fired at the shoota boyz to minimal effect. The vet squads took out the kommandos.

I think we called it at this point as it was obvious I was going to win. Overall a good game and I got lucky at critical points to get the win. I'm pretty convinced that Devil Dogs are awful, vendettas would've been cheaper and preferable at that role; but I think he had enough anti tank in general and would've benefitted from two HellHounds instead.

Thanks again for the game, willydstyle!"

AbusePuppy said...

Uh... he's running a _Primaris Psyker_. And Plasmavets with bad AT support. (One melta squad, two missile launchers, and three Hydras? At 1850? What the christ?) That list is godawful, far, FAR worse than any of the Ork lists posted so far. It has no plan and it has no backup to that lack of a plan. It's basically just gonna spam shitty firepower downfield and hope the opponent folds. It _might_ be able to beat foot Orks solely due to double-Manticore, but I wouldn't bet on it.

Congratulations on beating him in any case, but that is not an example of defeating a good player with a good list, I'm sorry.

Nathan said...

That's a 2k list actually.

I'm sad you couldn't make it up to Portland to game!

/singsong There's still TSHFT...

In any event, I thought the above was a good example of killing 10+ tanks and doing it without lootas. Its also one of the few times that lobbas did nothing (due to misplacement).

Back to lobbas really quickly. I know there's an advocacy of to run Killa Kans or other options instead. But running more vehicles doesn't work for me as it plays right into the hands of the meta game that demands lots of AT. Ask the Dark Eldar player that ran out of vehicles to kill on turn three and was wasting brightlance shots at lootas. Lobbas are nice because they can do a good amount of damage on infantry (frankly, I can do the tank shock/flame thing with them and trukks and be safer) and also can threaten vehicles. If they are out of LoS, my opponent NEEDS something similar in return, and having them take shots at lobbas instead of my troops is good. With two re-rolls, I have a pretty solid chance of getting 2 hits on a vehicle in one shooting phase. I just need a glance to negate that vehicle for a turn, and that's usually all I need. Its also a question of range. I like having more long-range stuff in my army. Lobbas and Lootas are the only weapons with 48" in the codex, and therefore I'd like them.

willydstyle said...

My list isn't optimized yet, but it's being worked on. You forgot to mention the devil dogs for AT support, they're not as reliable as melta vets for sure, but they're a bit cheaper once you factor in the cost of the chimera, and I don't have to sacrifice troops to melta a land raider. They also serve to interdict the movement of big vehicles. I also don't think of the PIS missile launchers as "anti-tank" as a single BS3 krack missile is highly unlikely to accomplish anything against any but the lightest vehicles. What they *do* accomplish is give me a bit of "buffer" space when I know there's going to be an assault that I have no way of preventing, for example wolf scouts or snikkrot. The mistake I made was in putting the edge of the unit too close to some chimeras so that snikkrot could get a multi-charge, minimize his damage against my infantry squad to increase his chance of staying in CC during my shooting phase, something Fluger did brilliantly all game.

One big weakness I've been noticing in the list is that exact same lack of ranged anti-tank support, however. I'm going to be adding in a couple of vendettas, by dropping the CCS, as I rarely benefit much from orders anyways, and the armored sentinels, because plasma cannons are pretty shit. This way I'll maintain the movement-blocking and tank-shocking support of the devil dogs (squadroned), and I'll get to add in a melta gun special weapon team.

While I admit that I made several big mistakes in this game, I think you'd maybe want to play me some time before saying I'm not a good player ;)

Nathan said...

I'm not sure the vendettas will work out as well as Hellhounds, but that's my opinion (I also think you're going to start running out of room). I agree that axing the CCS is a good idea, didn't seem to have a purpose.

In regards to Snikrot, there's really no way around it. Had you NOT spread out your unit like that, I'd've killed the manticores or Hydras, but BECAUSE you spread out, I was able to assault with a trukk boy squad.

The main thing I tried to do was sandbag assaults so I was in combat with a unit in your turn. As well, as usual, I didn't kill vehicles I charged that moved over 6", but since I was next to a live (stunned or immoed) unit, it limited your options for shooting them with templates and gave me cover. Finishing them off in your turn is even better than in my turn.

If you want to see a list that absolutely WTFPWNs my army unless I play flawlessly and have dice help is the lists I mentioned in the first comment thread: namely elite melee infantry heavy armies that are resilient like BA jump pack armies or Loganwing. Mech Guard is just NOT it. Orks don't lack for anti-tank, they lack in ap2.

willydstyle said...

If I had used my own tanks to block more of my board edge, I could have spread my infantry squad that was on my own board edge out more. The unit that got assaulted by the trukk boyz wasn't too bad of a loss as they actually died the turn you came in!

Of course I also think that this current list has a chance against your list, and a decent one. You simply played better than me this game. However, lets brawl again once I make the changes I want to make, and see how things go?

P.S.: vendettas will help with the "parking lot" because they can fly over the other stuff to get out of the way. Of course I usually play that other units can exist underneath vendettas as well, and I think that some people don't play that way.

Nathan said...

If you had blocked with tanks, you'd've had poorer firing lanes for the Chimeras.

Even flying over they have huge bases/footprints. About the same as a Chimera chassis.

A few factors would've made this game much harder for me. One, if it wasn't kill points, where I have an advantage because you have all those easy-to-kill tanks. Two, if I hadn't gotten my reserves in on turn 2.

Things that'd've made the game MORE in my favor would be me going first and Dawn of War.

AbusePuppy said...

@Nathan
Don't think I'm gonna be able to make TSHIFT, I have family coming into town that weekend. :| Sorry, mang.

'Detts help the parking lot issue because they can pass over other units and go places Chimeras can't (or can't see from).

@Wildstyle

Even a pair of Devildogs or whatever aren't going to save that list. They're not bad, but you're all over the place with it. You need Autocannons to bring transport-killing fire. You need Lascannons to reach out slap people from across the table. You need more troops- five squads of T3 guys doesn't cut it. You need to dump those Sentinels and the Psyker because they're trash and there's no reason to take them over other, better units. I don't even play IG actively and I can pick that list apart.

willydstyle said...

I already *have* a pair of devil dogs, and I'm going to be working some Vendettas into the list. I've had maybe 10 games with my Guard army, so I'm still working on it. The psyker is the cheapest HQ you can get in a mech Guard army. CCS is a good unit, but requires you to bring another Chimera. Chimeras are not as good as other tanks.

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