People still hate them. Don't know why, maybe they just don't get the Tyranid codex. Warseer has shown time and again they don't so it wouldn't be surprising. Let's be clear here. Tyranids are a good codex and very competitive and effective army in 5th edition. Whilst the FAQ has rendered some of their builds less effective they are still a top notch army. Get over it and move on. Glad we had this convo. So from the Tyranid tactica thread on Warseer we've got a bunch of (I really want to say stupid...) misguided thoughts about the Tyrannofex. You can check out the page here and specific posta here and here by the lovely members of Carnage and No2Wookie. Let's takea quick peek at what the Tyrannofex offers us.
For 265 points we get WS/BS3, S/T/W6, I1, A3, Sv2+ with a 2 shot 48" S10 Ap4, 18" S5 AP5 5" blast and wounds on 2+ template all of which can be fired. So not great at combat with I1 and WS3 but against anything without a PFist + bonuses like Old Adverserary, that's still 2-3 dead guys in combat. Let's be clear here, T-Fexes are not combat beasties but they don't need to be. Their MC statline makes them decent at combat and if you've got a couple of these + Tervigons + Tyrant + Gants + Hive Guard + Warriors/Raveners + etc, well they add some punch when your lines hit. So on paper they don't really seem worth it. Being able to shoot 3 guns is pretty damn amazing but most of them are short-ranged and only the S10 gun is any decent at anti-tank. However, that S10 gun is huge. Against most armies this gives the Tyranid army an actual option to shoot at 36"+ (and move) at a pretty reliable rate (you can do the stats). The S10 also means you're very likely to suppress whatever you're shooting at. This is good for an army who relies a lot on their Hive Guard/Zoanthropes for anti-tank. It's the same reason here that Harpies are good (but how much love do they get?). The S10 is also very important because you have the chance at damaging AV14. It's not a great chance but being able to slow or stop Land Raiders at range is important. Whilst the better tactic is to drop their supporting armor cast, once you've done this you have the option to slow that AV14 behemoth down. Nothing else in the Tyranid army does this anywhere near reliably at range.
Then you look at it's anti-infantry capabilities. A 5" blast and a template? Sold. I've seen 16 wounds caused by a T-Fex shooting against an infantry unit. Sure, I'm not shooting at a tank but 40k isn't about shooting tanks, it's a game of tactics. If I can gain more or it's more important for me to remove an infantry unit, I don't have a useless pure anti-tank option. Even Zoanthropes and Hive Guard are good in their own way against infantry. Hello 5th edition codex. This also imagines the T-Fex is going to be in combat (the template being 8" long) and as we said before, it's MC statline whilst not great, is still pretty impressive in combat. Unfortunately, individuals like No2Wookie believe a 265 'gun' shouldn't be in combat because then it's not shooting and it won't 'make its points back.' Well I was really tempted to stop reading at the last line but I soldiered on. If it's in combat, your whole army should be close to combat or threatening your opponent which means the enemy has little room to manuever and your MC statlines can come into play against vehicles and infantry alike. Your Hive Guard should also still be shooting at armor to suppress them so those MC attacks can hit stunned/immobed vehicles. As an opponent I'd rather 2 MCs stand at the back of the field and shoot me. Makes my target priority so much easier and the Tyranid army doesn't have multiple T6/2+ models providing cover to the rest of the army.
40k isn't a point and click game. I (and others) have advocated the Tyrannofex since the beginning of the codex because it's such a reliable gun platform which is hard to kill and gives the Tyranid army some amazing flexibility on the battlefield. In my last tournament, ya the T-Fexes didn't do much against vehicles but they provided so much more in most of my games. Amazing anti-infantry (which admittedly, Tyranids need minimal help in), two more MCs in combat, target priority issues for my opponent and free cover to my other MCs to name a few. Would I take them again instead of Trygons? Absolutely. Would I take Trygons over T-Fexes? Absolutely. Hallmark of a good 5th edition codex. Stop the hate; the Tyrannofex is good and is here to stay.
23 pinkments:
LEAVE T-FEXES ALONE!!
I agree. I dont play 'nids but ive always loved the T-Fex.they do what Carnies used to IMO.
Just need to figureout how I am going to convert mine, then it will see a lot of field play(I have a screamer killer fex that I converted into a tervigon with good success. Going to do something similar with the tyranofex
They should be a protected species.
Endangered by the Interwebz.
If I could comfortably fit 2 at 1500, I would run them without a second thought.
Agree 100% with you Kirby.
Oh, did your survey thing too after Dethtron posted about it. Interesting.
Ok, hmm... Agreed, nidz are a good army. Top-notch, maybe not, but definately competetive and tourney-worthy. I also agree that the internet seems to have a very negative view. However, I'm not a personal fan of the tyrannofex, favouring triple-trygon myself. I think it comes down to personal preference, since both units are quite solid.
I'm fairly new to Tyranid's, I normally use a Marine variant of some kind so it's been a steep learning curve I must admit.
I've been doing it as a sort of 'learn from my mistakes' project on my own blog.
I've been using this list for a month or so now,
1750 Pts - Tyranids Roster - Tyranid Test list
HQ: The Swarmlord (1#, 280 pts)
1 The Swarmlord @ 280 pts
: Tyrant Guard Brood (2#, 130 pts)
2 Tyrant Guard Brood @ 130 pts (Lash Whip)
Elite: Hive Guard Brood (2#, 100 pts)
2 Hive Guard Brood @ 100 pts
Elite: Hive Guard Brood (2#, 100 pts)
2 Hive Guard Brood @ 100 pts
Elite: Hive Guard Brood (2#, 100 pts)
2 Hive Guard Brood @ 100 pts
Troops: Tervigon (1#, 195 pts)
1 Tervigon @ 195 pts (Adrenal Glands; Toxin Sacs; Catalyst)
Troops: Tervigon (1#, 195 pts)
1 Tervigon @ 195 pts (Adrenal Glands; Toxin Sacs; Catalyst)
Troops: Termagant Brood (10#, 60 pts)
9 Termagant Brood @ 60 pts
1 Termagant (Strangleweb)
Troops: Termagant Brood (10#, 60 pts)
9 Termagant Brood @ 60 pts
1 Termagant (Strangleweb)
Heavy Support: Tyrannofex (1#, 265 pts)
1 Tyrannofex @ 265 pts (Rupture Cannon; Cluster Spines; Thorax Swarm (larvae))
Heavy Support: Tyrannofex (1#, 265 pts)
1 Tyrannofex @ 265 pts (Rupture Cannon; Cluster Spines; Thorax Swarm (larvae))
Total Roster Cost: 1750
And to be honest the Tyrannofex's have been the star performer in many of the games I've played.
Some pictures of my Tyrannofex can be found at the following link if anybodies interested.
http://gmortschaotica.blogspot.com/2010/07/tyranid-project-part-4-tyrannofex.html
Purely on paper the t-fex is pretty average, but... valueing a unit you need to consider how it fits into the army. The parts individually may seem poor vlaue (certainly not Hive guard!), but the whole is so much more than the sum of the parts. As Kirby says they can lend a hand in HTH, provide cover, suppress or even destroy vehicles of all sizes, put a decent hurt on infantry close up, also its firepower can never be negated by hoods or other psychic defences, It also has the unprecidented (for nids) range to reachout and touch vehicles across the board. All of these points are already covered above, in comparison to vehicles it shoots and fights to full efficiency till its last wound (never shaken!).
I cannot deny the HTH killiness of a trygon, but as a utiliy creature the T-fex is tops, and that is why you pay top points for it!. FOS wise it frees up the elites a little for a deathleaper or other finese (the ymgarls are highly underrated online). Actually I will elaborate, the ymgarls are underrated because of mech... but by the 2-3 turn when they arrive you should have demeched a bunch of stuff (or just charge those longfangs/dev / broadsides/ etc). I have enjoyed success with the good old ymgarls, but truth be told i still prefer Hive guard.
Army wise I think fielding one T-fex although lacking redundancy will help draw more fire/ force errors in target selection more than 2 T-fex would. The other heavy I would then field would be a trygon for punch.
I still think they suck. Hell, Id never pay 250+ pts for those shots. Yes they can come in use but not for that many points. And with the amount of wolf players with jaws running around nowa-days they become even less reliable!
People splashed the premium points on blinged carnifex with big guns in the last codex.
It does the exact same thing as the old monster, but has a much, much, much better gun, and much, much better firepower in general.
Until people here get their heads out of their asses and field T-Fexes, I'm not going to fear 'nid anti-tank. Hive Guard are fantastic, but if that str 10 gets through my dpod I'm in the deep end of the pool without floaties.
Myself and one other person advocate it at my flgs.
People don't seem to realise that it's the only thing to EVER get multiple S10 shots. It's incredible.
When I convert my TyranOrks, I will have 3 of these bad boys from 1750 up.
At 2000 points I'm torn between a 3rd Tyrannofex of a 3rd Tervigon as both effectively cost me a Carnifex it makes little difference from a financial point of view.
Some more playtesting would seem to be in order unless anybody else has any insights one way or the other?
Personally Kirby, I think you summed up the entire issue quite well with this:
"People still hate them. Don't know why, maybe they just don't get the Tyranid codex."
As Ishmael said, he and I are the only people at our FGS that actually think they are anything but shit, and we don't even play Nids lol. I have one friend who after being convinced to try Hive Guard (and loving them)is now trying the T-fex. Of course, his first game using it was against Horde Orks and he was "less than impressed" but any real results are gained through multiple games.
I have talked to multiple Nid players at my FGS (both of the ones I frequent) and they are all still stuck in their 4th edition codex, while trying their damndest to view the 5th Ed book in the same light.
Nid players, you have a new book now. Your army has changed (for the better). It is no longer all about either max Horm troops and Stealers or whatever or Nidzilla (which wasn't all that hot to begin with).
Nid players also seem to not like owning up to the fact that their army has to actually shoot. While I can understand this perfectly (Stelek's best of shooty Nid list is great, but I wouldn't play it) it is just the reality of the army now. Try to fix it yourself, adapt to the new book, or get the f' out.
Personally, I always wanted to run 200+ Hormagaunts at stuff, until it died.
That's pretty much my only draw to Nids...but using Orks AS Nids, that's different entirely. One day, I will have an Orks army for every Codex. THEN we'll see who knows what.
Motherfucking Kirby stealing my ideas:
http://touchedbygreatness.blogspot.com/2010/07/tyranidsaurus-fex.html
Bad Kirby, bad. :P
I'm sure there's a joke in there about theft and Aussie convict ancestors somewhere...
I'm in complete agreement with you on how good the T-Fex is and I'm glad that you're able to explain how it fits into a list (synergy) as opposed to treating it in isolation and poo-pooing it's stats.
@Alex: There's only 1 army in the game that has Jaws. 1. Against the 13 or so others you won't have the same problem. If you're terrified of facing it there are contingencies that you need in your list to try to stop it e.g. Deathleaper. While it is terrifying for T-Fexes there are ways to combat it - you don't *need* to be within 24" of a Rune Priest for the Fex to be useful unlike, say, a Trygon.
Jaws is:
A) Rare, as Stormy points out. (Are you Black Stormy or White Stormy? :P ) You aren't going to see it all that much.
B) Only medium range. If you're facing SW, put your 'Fex at the back of the army and don't advance it while the Priest is alive.
C) On a T4/3+ character. That means he's either sitting in Rhino (so shake it and ignore) or outside of a Rhino (charge him, kill everything). Remember, he's going to be within 24" of your T-Fex, which is at the back of the board, so he's probably within 18" of the rest of your forces- or closer.
D) Marginal. Who is it good against? Tyranids and Orks. Also Plague Marines, I guess. That's basically it. Good players bring Living Lighting, Murderous Hurricane, Tempest's Wrath, Storm Caller, etc- these are all good powers and you should respect them. Jaws is a sucker bet that you'll play one of two particular armies.
And yes, it can threaten other units (Tervigons, most notably, but also Hive Guard, etc), so do the same thing you do with T-Fexes and keep them out of the way. It necessitates playing around, but it's not the end-all be-all of powers.
<3 Puppy. Emphasis on Jaws' lack of utility against other armies. Tempest, Hurricane, Lightning and Storm Caller are all so much better.
(Are you Black Stormy or White Stormy? :P )
Eh?
I'm actually fond of Jaws as an all-round power for pot-shotting things that I'll have trouble cracking in combat like Thunder Shield Termies: if you hit 3 guys with I4 one of them dies. Its had its uses when Living Lightning wouldn't have done the job.
>Eh?
http://video.adultswim.com/sealab-2021/a-tale-of-two-debbies.html
>I'm actually fond of Jaws as an all-round power for pot-shotting things that I'll have trouble cracking in combat like Thunder Shield Termies: if you hit 3 guys with I4 one of them dies. Its had its uses when Living Lightning wouldn't have done the job.
The thing is, against those same guys, most other powers would do similar amounts of damage, if not more. Murderous Hurricane will fuck up those Terminators pretty good and insure that they don't get into your lines. (It averages ~1 casualty from the initial hit and then a variable number of additional kills depending on the size of the squad.)
Not a Yank so can't watch the Adult Swim. How annoying.
I've used Jaws in a few games and I've grown fond of it so I'll play a few more games with it. I haven't found there to be occasions where I would have preferred other powers to be honest.
LL with its infinite range is silly for outshooting tanks and Jaws' sniping and ability to take out supporting monsters that I wouldn't otherwise be able to damage has proven very useful.
Play some games against Eldar, Jumper Marines, Daemons, DE, etc. Then ask yourself how useful Tempest would of been :P.
T-fex's are great. A bit on the expensive side but the only real choice once you have run out of Elite slots for ranged anti-tank. I use one every game.
T-Fex:
shooting at AV 14
hit 3/6
pen 1/3
destroy 2/6
6/108 + [102/108 x 6/108] or 17/324
35/324
10.8%
bs4 Las Cannon: 3.7%
tl bs3 Rail Gun: 14.58%
+++
It's just old-thinking, again. People want their armies to be a cut and paste of last Codex plus extra amazing.
They then run a list that is not of optimum calibration and feel they have been cheated by GW.
The only thing doing the cheating is their entrenched attitudes.
Like the baby elephant and the stake. The elephant grew up with the knowledge that it could not break away from the stake. Its thinking remains that way unto death, despite being many times more powerful and even with a bigger and more able brain.
We trap ourselves.
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