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Tuesday, October 19, 2010

Forumitis: 'I only play for fun.'

Oldest excuse in the book. Everybody's heard this at least once, but really, that's all it is - an excuse.

You're playing to win, but you agreed to the game because it's fun.

How does that make sense? We'll get there in a minute. First, a story.
Back in the ancient days of the early 90's, there existed a little company called Games workshop. It was a tiny, tiny company, but because it was the only company of its kind, it quickly became top dog.

Not surprisingly, really, since - you know - no competition means you'll be the only supplier and provider of whatever you're pushing. Back then, Games workshop pushed plastic men, some boardgames, basic paints, and little else. It was the dark ages of gaming, but things were simple.
In the shadowy era of 1998, the world would be turned upside down, for GW had a masterplan: release a game that could spearhead tournaments, and thus lead to massive, massive revenues, new model lines, the need for players to update their armies on a cyclical basis, and more. Saying it didn't work out would be an understatement, but why didn't it work out?

At the time, Games workshop had many employees, but of the original crew, only one remains, and his is the name that will forever be remembered by nerds everywhere for past transgression.
Jervis Johnson, failmaster supreme, high priest of the cult of beer and pretzel games. If Jervis was in charge of FIFA, scoring anything except ties would be punishable by death.

You see, Jervis hates winning with a burning passion.
To Jervis, winning a game - let alone playing to win - is comparable to murder, and any desire to win must be purged from humanity before we'll advance as a species.

True greatness comes from forced ties, gallons of booze, and 'just having plain, old fun with yer figurines an' lil' men.'
For reasons unknown, Jervis still is, and always has been, the man in charge of everything related to tournaments and competitive play. Yeah, in hindsight, that probably wasn't such a great idea. Even without hindsight it was a stupid move!

Not only did Jervis construct the tourney template we all love to hate (sports, appearance, battle), he's been a (not so) secret advocator of comp, too. Of course, GW's forced him to retract this support - officially, too.
Then came the throne of skulls (tm), and - well, people weren't pleased.
Note: this is happening in a day and age where competitive cardgames generate more money than the finest of the finest 'beer and pretzel' tabletop games, competitive Starcraft and Counter-strike are aired on TV in certain countries (South Korea - YouTube it), and GW's own game systems are more balanced and refined than ever before.

Not only is mister Johnson outright stupid for resisting his company's obvious attempt to capitalize on the competitive wave, but he's also rather foolish, and has zero actual victories worth anything to his credit this far in time.
It's no secret I'm pushing for Abaddon's name to be changed to Jervisddon the Johnson, to mimic the real-life inspiration behind such a great, successful, inspiring, and respectable villain.

Thanks to 12+ years of Jervis governing the temple, 'playing to win' in warhams is popuarly considered cheating.
Being the better list builder (read: having the better understanding of the game) is a bad thing, and don't you dare force people to follow the rules, play official missions, or use effective units. Doing any of these three things make you a WAAC jerk - the scum of the earth.

In short, winners aren't wanted by JJ or his followers, and any such individuals will be cast out into the dirt - branded WAAC, cheater, haxx, dicelord, cheesemaster, powergamer, and other colorfol, negative nicknames.
This is how Jervis wants it.
It's also how the people in charge of BALSCON and Adepticon want it. Why?
It is relevant to their interests.
A truly good player will never enter one of these events.
Should he or she chose to do so, the player must know certain specific rules - rules that have nothing whatsoever to do with the game being played.
Softscores, blowjob scores, 'rate your opponents,' painting, army composition, actual comp, 'spam penalties...' The list is long, intimidating and, as we're about to see shortly, in effect worthless.

When entering a game, you are there to win. This is hard fact. Your reptile brain makes it impossible for you to not aim for a win. Does it guarantee wins? Heavens, no - but it makes it so you crave victory.
This is why, after games, even people who say 'well, I play just for fun!' get pissed as all hell, even though they just threw up the 'for fun'-excuse.

See, that special part of your brain doesn't know why the game was lost or won. It can tell win and defeat apart, yes, but isn't advanced enough to know what, exactly, happened.
Just that the leafblower rolled your footdat off the board in two turns.

This makes you feel bad.
If it happens on a daily basis, merely mentioning the game makes you sour and cranky. 'case you didn't know, this is how your body handles repeated losses.
You get very tense, and whenever warham's brought up, it's all beardy cheese WAAC DAVU falcons and thundershields on cav with ID-immunity(!!!!).
Basically, the back of your brain is telling the front of your brain that it sucks ass, and needs to start producing results. It does this by attacking perceived imbalances, preferably things that have beaten you down lately, in an attempt to stimulate a creative, functional response against them ('Use transports against the tyranids, you idiot!').

Bear in mind, these things may not necessarily be powerful, or even make sense.
"Yeah, he rolled his wolfpriest and the 14 bloodclaws out of the redeemer, got in a magic moment, and CHARGED MY ELDRATAR AND ALL THREE LOLORDS! PUT SO MANY WOUNDS ON MY GUARDIANS, ALL OF IT WENT POOF! I hate bloodclaws! I HATE THEM AND THEIR OVERPOWERED BONUS ATTACKS! THEY ALWAYS ROLL STASTICALLY BETTER THAN AVERAGE, AND MY LOLORDS AREN'T POOR - I'm just unlucky!"

Chances are, you've heard something like that uttered at least once.
So, what does it mean? Players like that are dealing with repetead loss, the caveman side of their brain trying its best to make their thinking brain come up with a solution - and it almost never does! Why?
To beat something, you have to compete. Competing is evil, says JJ, and he's fostered this in the players for so long, the only ways out are rehab and enlightenment.

"If I don't take the lolords and Eldratar, I suddenly don't have to fear bloodclaws rapin' my line, and get more points for mobile shit, shooty shit, and bette- different shit! I can roll in my falcons, shootin' lance hate at their 'raider, laughing at the futile efforts of the 'claws to mess up my floating crib! Oh, wow..." An inner monologue like that's what made me discard Jervis' teachings, but it was over my tau, and their supposed inability to ever score a win against sisters of battle.

Eventually, we all come to this very important point - a crossroads of sorts.
One sign points to 'deal with it the way humanity's always dealt with problems,' while the other says 'ebay or box away your models.'
Not surprisingly, most find JJ's teachings too strong and sacred to deface, readily boxing up their precious, plastic men.

The rare few who stick to it are changed individuals (see above examples). You know this, how you used to play, and think certain things were unbeatable, 'cheese,' or 'not fit to be in a hobby game played for fun.'
At the end of the day, we're all only human, and humans are very competitive. You could say it's in our blood, but that's not even half of it.
Humans are made to win, no matter the cost.

It's how we operate, and approach everything.
We enter games, because games are fun.
Fun they may be - we're still there to win. Winning is the objective, and what you and your opponent are 'fighting' over in the first place.

Winning games. What does this mean?
Games? A game, by definition, is 'a contest with rules to determine a winner.' And there's the gold, me mateys.

If we go to war, it's everything and the kitchen sink. If it's soccer or warhams, we strictly follow very basic rules, but it's still about deciding a winner and a loser.
This is common knowledge, isn't it? Yes, it is.
Yet, everytime someone realizes this piece of 'common knowledge,' Jervis pulls his arms off in anger.

Because we're not simple beasts, there's more to games than winning them. Remember, kids - winning is just the objective.
The true meat is in the challenge. What's 'challenge?'

"It was such a tough, hardcore, superfun game, where we fought over this ruined bunker just outside my deployment, and it was the last turn, with straken, two guardsmen, swarmlord, and 30 gants left, but I was so close to getting Straken raped by the 30 gants, but then he rolled really poorly, and I WOUNDED ALL OF MY ATTACKS! GANTS WENT EXPLODEY INTO LITTLE BITS! And then he measured synapse, they were an inch too far from the swarmlord, and I RAN ALL OF THEM DOWN IN ONE MOVE!!!!!!!!"

That's challenge.
It's not something you can directly measure. You have it, or you don't. Yeah, it's a very individual thing, but you know it when you see it. This is important.
By definition, winning and losing get very boring if that's all you're ever gonna get (routine: win, lose, what's the difference in the long run?), but challenge is what keeps you coming back for more - weekly.

Once you find players (or a player) who can provide challenge, your game automatically starts to improve. It's a natural response to a superior foe. Beating her or him isn't enough - you must become even better, with never-before seen moves, tactics, and a bigger stack of knowledge.
This is the most fun aspect in all games, and why it feels less good to win against a babyseal, than it does losing to a pro. The pro offers you challenge, and the seal doesn't.
Winning feeds your reptile brain, but it does little for the rest of your mind. The caveman in you doesn't care who you're winning against, but your higher functions feel unsatisfied, and understimulated.

So, in summary: losers are sour and sore. Winners are happy. Players who experience challenge are content, regardless of winning or losing.
Now, if we take an entire group of winners that duel with challenge, and put them all in one location, Jervis tells us shit be real, the universe is gonna explode, and no one would ever find that fun.

Well, let's just say it didn't turn out as the high priest of comp and 'fun' 'hobby events' predicted.

Actually, let's look at just how it all went down, for comparision.

Drama? None.
Extremely pretty armies? Yes.
Winners fighting winners until only one remained? Yes.
A little 'everybody's a winner!'-price? No.
Any sour faces? None have been reported.

Yes, Jervis, adults who play by the rules to win make less of a mess than the manchildren you enroll in your official tourneys for 'playing for fun,' as well as those sucked up in the BALS vacuum.

The comp and JJ brigade will naturally come forth now, summoned from their ivory towers of fluffy bunnies by this perceived cry of war, but are you really going to argue with the actual definition of 'game?' No? Yeah, didn't think so, either.

I do have a fairly legit question, however.

It's okay for them to whine - over and over - that winners need to play 'fluffy,' or 'soft lists,' yes? Apparently, this is a-okay - fair enough. Well, here's my question.

Why can't all you losers learn how to win instead, so we'll both feel challenged?

Comments (64)

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A very good read VT2, I cannot begin to comprehend the concept of playing purely for fun, in an ideal world you play a competitive game and in doing so have fun.
spudulike's avatar

spudulike · 759 weeks ago

I paint for fun. I play because the people I paint with sometimes bully me into it.
Some people DO play just for fun. They quite literally are unconcerned with winning- if it happens, great, but it is not their goal. These are the "pure" hobbyists, people who paint models for armies they will never have and compose forces that are fluffy (according to their own or GW's backgrounds) without the slightest concern for how effective they are on the table.

These people do not go to tournaments.

Casual games can be for fun- they can be between friends, where both players _want_ to win but neither is terribly concerned with it. They can be story games, acting out a scenario. They can be many different things where the objective is not really winning (nor even necessarily the challenge of a good fight, merely a fun game by whatever means that is achieved by.)

But these games are not anything like tournaments. If you are entering a tournament, you are explicitly joining an event where everyone is attempting to win. So long as the participants show good sportsmanship (which does NOT include intentionally crippling their army so as to be "fair" to the other player) and follow the rules, everything should be fair game. If it turns out that the game is severely unbalanced and there are a small number of options that are all but unbeatable, then perhaps the game's rules need to be revised.

This is not the case in 40K. There are at LEAST two dozen major viable lists, drawn from very nearly every codex in the game. Some have more than others; suck it up, not everything in the world is perfectly fair.
14 replies · active 759 weeks ago
abusepuppy nailed it. While I do understand many players often favour painting and background over competitiveness, anyone who is actually playing for "fun" couldn't care less about the outcome of a game.
Tournament or not, you're there to win, but you agreed to play the game because it's fun.
People who say they're 'casual' are the worst losers, because they can't win consistently to call themselves anything but casual.
Thank you for painting us all with an amazingly broad brush!
Hey, you're that guy who tells anyone within hearing distance about the amazing dice roles you were getting and the total newbie mistakes the other guy made. And then repeats the story when someone else walks past.
I disagree. As I said, some players don't care about winning. Some people barely even _play_, much less play to win. They might strike up a game because they want to show off their models, or to get inspiration for writing some more fluff, or because they are social gamers and want to hang out with folks.

I wouldn't say these "pure" hobbyists are in the majority, but they DO exist.
Agreed! I build Armies based on fluff, I enjoy the painting and the storylines (I've read ALOT of BL books). I don't do Tournaments, they don't interest me.

The idea of adding rules and points system to entice a player like me is dumb. I still won't show, and it just ruins it for the guys who want to play competively.

VT2, do you RAID or do Arena's? :-) I'm guessing Arena's.
Agreed. I've got no problem with tournaments being solely W/L based, with no soft scores. Personally, I think it's the way they should be. Trying to dilute competition play to please both groups of players pleases no one. If a casual player like me attends a tournament, he or she should be prepared to give it their all, take their lumps, and have a good time doing it. :)
I nominate you the honory Australian and demand you come change the system here lol
Nobody listens to me now. How will being an honorary Aussie change anything? :D
You have to face death in a myriad of forms every day?
So lies
Have you seen Australian drivers? Especially Queenslanders. Wow.
Lmfao, well none of my visits to qld have killed me yet =P
+1 to Puppy :) .
Well, I understand that some people want to play for fun (i.e. use armies and models that they think look cool rather than how powerful they re) but at the same time these people should stay away from tournaments. Changing the tournament style with adding a ton of useless rules and restriction, just to cater for this kind of people is very wrong in my opinion. Tournaments should be for gamers that want to play competitively and do their best to win. Personally, I would never participate on a comped event or one that contains a heavy amount of soft scores.

Just a little psychoanalysis now. I am so tired of people calling me a WAAC player just because I play with strong lists. Aren't people entitled to playing with the full strengths of their armies? Should they intentionally nerf themshelfs just so that other people feel more comfortable playing against them? To me, WAAC comes into playing not list building. If you intentionally misinterpret the rules, outright cheat, rules-lawyering against your opponent all the time and generally being an unpleasant person during your games then you are a WAAC player. Not because you want to have a strong list and play a competitive game. Phew, OK now it's off my chest :P
1 reply · active less than 1 minute ago
It's more a sore looser thing. If you are a competitive player and lost badly you paint the other person with the WAAC brush. Personally that only kicks in when the person cheats or twists the rules, but then you aren't so much WAAC as just being a dick. After all, there is nothing wrong with wanting to win.
I'm one of the people who plays primarily for fun. I'm mostly interested in building the lists I want to build and doing as well as I can with them. I'm all for trying to optimize my armies and improve as a player, but not if it means giving up the original reasons I chose those armies. I don't generally play at tournaments - not that I'm against them or anything. I rarely get my schedule to cooperate, and tournament play is just stressful rather than enjoyable for me (always has been, even back in my CCGing days). For me, the game is a way to kick back, enjoy playing with friends, stretch my creativity on the hobby side, and just have a good time. I'm less interested in trying to be the best of the best, and more interested in, well... having fun. Doesn't mean I don't want to improve as a player, but I have no desire to go all out and play full hardcore competition style.
5 replies · active 759 weeks ago
But you still get sour if you lose constantly.
Don't have to have an optimized list to compete. You could be playing 200 point foot lists versus each other, and it would still be you and your opponent battling for a win, and if you lost 10 out of 10 games, you'd get really sour and sore.
If you're losing 10 out of 10 games and not learning anything or making any changes, then you're doing it wrong, casual play or no. That's just statistically unlikely, or you have the worst dice luck ever. But I don't think that has anything to do whether you're playing for fun or playing in a competition. If you have any interest in the game, though, you'll naturally pick things up and adapt.

Are you playing a game where there's a winner? Sure. But that doesn't mean that hardcore tournament style lists and no-nonsense play are the One True Way to play the game. Neither are fluffy lists and wonky random missions. There's room for both. In the former, the win is more important than the fun (although you can certainly have fun while winning), and the latter favors fun over winning (although both players are competing to win). Different people enjoy each.
But I'm not talking about 'tournament styled armies.' What the hell is that, anyway?
Is there some kind of secret lever you push, and your army now is only fit for 'tournaments?' The tournaments that say you can't take this or that, anyway?

Yeah, there's one way to play, and it's to play to win.
You can't do otherwise, because it's human nature to always aim for the win.
Well, for example, one of my armies is Chaos Marines, and I'm building and playing a Slaaneshi army. Now, a player with the competition-only mindset would never build a list like that for a tournament, because they consider Noise Marines and the Mark of Slaanesh (and even Lash, which is now considered a bit passe') to be worthless. Instead, it's all about Nurgle Daemon Princes and Plague Marines and Chaos Glory CSMs. Those are considered to be the 'best' units, and that's what a player focused solely on building the meanest, face-beating-est list is going to use.

But for me, I enjoy building my lists with a bit more emphasis on the fluff and flavor I want. That's not to say the Nurgle list is unfluffy, but it's not the army I want to play. I want to play Slaanesh/Emperor's Children/etc., so I'm going to build that list because it's what I want to play. Whether or not I want to take it to tournaments is immaterial to me; I'd rather play the list that I want to play and win or lose with it than play the list I feel I 'have' to play to go for the win at a tournament. And I definitely don't want to have to play a tournament-style list outside of tournament play. I don't want every game to be practice for the next tournament. Sometimes, I just want to get out my little plastic men and roll some dice with friends.

Now, I'll try to improve and optimize the list, but not to the point of scrapping my desired theme and going just for the more winning list. Some would say I'm handicapping myself, but to me staying inside the theme and making it as good as I can is half the fun. Sure, at the table I'm going to play my best to try to win, but wanting to win isn't why I play the game.
I did go 10 for 10 when I picked up WHFB again during late 7th. I was playing Empire and the god awful TVI lists.

It wasn't until 8th Ed that I started winning and drawing more than losing.

Granted, I no longer played TVI Empire lists but I wasn't winning when I wasn't playing non TVI Empire lists in 7th.

Don't get me started on 6th... 6th Ed was the Ed that made me quit WHFB till 7th (which made me go for a sabbatical until I heard the rumored changes for 8th)
Angry Marine's avatar

Angry Marine · 759 weeks ago

I was the first to discover this mentailty in Yu-Gi-Oh, though then again I never watched the anime and grew attachments to cards, I got into the game. Within the first month I learnt the game and built a pretty solid deck. Within three months, new stuff was released and a new structure deck was released, I put all that together in a build I throught worked and i ended up being stronger then people who were playing the game for years. Only now, a year or so later have I convinced another to step away from the "just for fun" mentalty and embrace the "seek a challange" aspect. I really pity people who get stuck in that mindset, show up to tourneys only to get clubbed for willingly handicapping themselves.

I found that once I did that, the majority of my games were satisfying and that all loses, were either my fault or unavoidable due to the draw of the cards. My experiences with 40K is likely to be the same, only my idea of fun is moving pieces around and trying to out wit or fight my foe, and present beautiful modelling on their side and one day mine in the process.
No real problem with most of this but as an ancient grognard I do object to "Back in the ancient days of the early 90's, there existed a little company called Games workshop. It was a tiny, tiny company, but because it was the only company of its kind, it quickly became top dog."
What a load of tosh. I was shopping in GW in the late 70's and by the early 90's it was already a monster. However, it was not the only monster on the block and had plenty of decent competition even then :PPPPPPPPPPPPP
This was a wery good read, and maybe it will help me make the "casual" people (those who had like 20k points of an army, all awesomely painted and converted, + a titan and super heavys, and lose close to all their gaems, with the most aweful lists I have ever seen :( .....) see that playing to win is a good thing :)
Apathyman's avatar

Apathyman · 759 weeks ago

I totally agree. I love tournaments, but won't begrudge anyone their afternoon of 40k. I think (hope?) VT was focused on people making the "play for fun" excuse in forums (in response to a list they think is "too good") or tournaments that try to change the game to appeal to people who don't care to go to tournaments. At least with me, a chat would go something like this:
You: "I just like to play for fun"
Me: "Well then, don't go to tournaments!"
You: "I don't, and don't really care to."
Me: "Oh! Sorry, I mistook your comment. Have a great day!"
I don't know about that, abusepuppy. I would describe myself as someone who plays for fun and does not care about winning. Fun to me, though, is building an insanely tough list. Finding those 4 extra points that I need to squeeze every last drop of efficiency out of everything I can. Spending hours in Excel doing mathhammer trying to figure out exactly the best loadouts for everything. I enjoy playing tough, challenging games. I am a competitive player. I have not yet attended any, but I would love to enter a tournament for these reasons. That being said, I legitimately do not care about winning. Yes I want to, yes that's why I'm there, yes I understand that's the point of the game, yes I'm still trying to, BUT I can honestly say that if I lost every game for the rest of my life (well, maybe not in tournaments, losing in round 1 wouldn't be fun) I would still just be happy playing games. I realize that sort of makes me a unique individual (I'm a huge fan of fighting games as well, and both while growing up and to this day, whenever I play against someone I, sometimes subconsciously, play at a lower level than I am able to because I feel like if I win too much they won't play with me anymore. I enjoy competition, but I enjoy playing more than I do winning, so keeping them entertained is more important than crushing them into the ground repeatedly. Of course, I always try to win still; beating my girlfriend in racquetball 21 to 15 is more fun for both of us than winning 21 to 3, having her get upset, and then refusing to ever play me again. As an even further aside, this is why W/L tournaments are better for casual gamers than battle point soft scoring ones: they allow games to be closer because people don't have to play like jerks to get the massacre because they need it to win. Competitive players still get the challenging games they enjoy, and the more casual gamers can still enter the tournament and while they may not have a good chance of winning, the games they play will be much more enjoyable.) ... sorry, where was I? Ah yes, this may make me unique, and perhaps an exception to the rule, but I do exist. So, uh, I guess that was my point on that one...

It is my opinion that people who play comp and soft scoring tournaments are more WAAC than anyone else. For some people, playing WAAC means rules-lawerying, using super-efficient cookie-cutter armies, etc. For others, it means changing the fundamental rules of the game just so they can have a chance at winning. They get to a point where what they want to play can't compete anymore, so they go out and create an event with completely different, non-40k rules (comp, INAT, sportsmanship, stupid scenarios, etc) just so they have a chance at winning again. They refuse to change their army, or the way they play, so instead they change the entire game to fit them. I mean, look at the ETC WHFB rules. Just because their intention is to have "more fun games" and therefore their cause is "righteous", it makes it not WAAC? Please. At least the people usually toted as WAAC jerks are playing (mostly) by the actual rules of the game.

These sorts of more casual gamers have always had a deep-seeded hatred for competitive players. I believe I have uncovered the reason once and for all. Allow me to show you:

C NC
C X X
NC 0 X

I don't think html tags work in blogger comments, so just pretend that is in a pretty table. C stands for competitive, NC is non-competitive. It is a grid representing the possible matchups between C and NC gamers where the X's represent possible wins and 0's represent losses. Competitive gamers are able to win no matter the situation; against NC gamers they win often, and against other C gamers they will still likely win 50% of the time. Non-competitive gamers can only win against each other. (sure they still can beat competitive gamers, but the matches are very hard fought and wins aren't as common based solely on list matchups) So, while competitive gamers are fine and get along with everyone (and depending on how vocal the NC gamers are in their area, they may not even know there is an issue) the NC gamers feel victimized by the C gamers and develop an antagonistic relationship with them. Everything is always fine and dandy until a competitive guy shows up and ruins all the fun. As VT2 expertly discussed, even though they think they are only playing "for fun" they still have an emotional need to win games. Competitive gamers deny them this need, so after a while instead of thinking "Space Wolves are dumb because they're overpowered", they eventually start thinking "competitive gamers are assholes".
PS - Sorry for doubling the pages word count. I tend to get worked up about this topic.
Anonannoyed's avatar

Anonannoyed · 759 weeks ago

From this article, it's really obvious you don't know Jervis. Take your rage out on someone real, not some imagined construct. There are TOs who run their games differently than you'd like. Adapt or fail.
A piece of insight from the desk of David Carl (for those who don't know, he's Privateer Press' playtest co-ordinator, and something of an imposing theorist of the game besides), on the subject of games with victory conditions.

The objective of the game is to win.
The point of the game is to have fun.

Much gamer angst originates from people who are unable to distinguish these truths. Ruminate upon them a while and see if they make sense to you. The games we play have victory conditions; choosing to play them and not striving to meet those conditions makes me wonder why you chose to play these games at all, or why you don't rewrite them into an experience with a different objective (something more like a roleplaying game) so that your goals and the goals of the game are better aligned.
1 reply · active less than 1 minute ago
A great quote and one I've used myself on occasion (or something similar; TKE has little fits of joy when I do it on Warseer).
Wusword77's avatar

Wusword77 · 759 weeks ago

A mature player is able to play for just fun, thats all there really is to it. I've seen competitive players be the most insanly sore losers, and the most "casual" of player take a loss with grace like most people can't even imagine.

While I agree that the object of a game is to win, there are people who feel ok when they lose. In this post VT2 even mentions that there were no sour faces after leaving a tourny, but some people had to lose. Having played competitivly for years in MTG then WoWTCG even the people who are playing for the "challenge" can be just as sore when they lose as the "casual."

As far as GW's tourny policy, you have to take into account that there are many aspects to this game. While I agree that the order in which they assign the importance (Should be battle, appearance, sports) is crazy a game that is based around the building and painting of models before you can play needs to have that reflected in a tourny setting. Granted it really shouldn't bear on how well you do in said tourny but it could still hold a bearing.
I am casual. I know, because I used to be borderline non-casual in Magic: the Gathering, and non-casual in World of Warcraft.

I have never sat down and stuck every unit into a computer and modeled their performance (I did this for WoW). I have never sat down with a group of 5 people, and started trying to refine the perfect army, with us playing stock army lists, modified lists, and other changes. I did this with M:tG. I have never played for 50+ hours a week (both). I have never deliberately set out to reach the pinnacle of the game with a group of likeminded people, with the sole and single goal of breaking the format with not a care or concern for 'fluff,' 'hurt feelings,' or 'the true spirit of the game.' Or even just general humanity.

I'm honestly not sure this game could survive that.
There are two types of events tournaments (you go to win) campaign weekends (you go for fun) which you can attend it's just you take different attitudes. It's when people take winning to the extreme, placing it above sociability and good manners that it becomes a problem. Taking a soft or fluffy list can be a fun challenge more so than winning with a cookie cutter tournament build. Surely the greatest challenge is winning the battle to improve yourself not simply pissing off someone with your ass behaviour to make yourself feel superior ( how poor must that persons life be). So just because someone takes a soft or fluffy list it doesn't mean they aren't competitive and don't want to win it's just perhaps they are looking for a different victory than you assume.
5 replies · active 759 weeks ago
Angry Marine's avatar

Angry Marine · 759 weeks ago

Problem is with that is if your taking a soft or fluffy list, your not being competive since the nature of soft lists is to willingly handicap one's self. There is nothing wrong in my opinon with being causal at all, just going easy is aiming to win in exactly the same way as a competative gamer, but willingly handicaping ones self so that they are less likely to do it. Or not aiming to win at all.

Of course, I like messing about too, just when I go to tourneys it just makes sense for me to bring my best game to the table so that hopefully we can have a smashing time. After all, what better way to learn our strengths and limitations, or room for improvement on the forge of the field against a likewise oppoment? And likewise, a causal gamer can try and measure his strength with his limitations and see how far that carries him, or to play causally.
Angry Marine's avatar

Angry Marine · 759 weeks ago

For my chapter, the space wolves, we do not mess about, we mount up in the way that most benfits our guys to get into the fight, lose as few men as possible and have a great story to tell when the campain is over. Space Marines in general are an elite killing force of all natures that forfill their perpose as a weapon for mankindhence I feel that whatever list I do bring, it forfills all the fluff required. After all, the games workshop perposely leaves the fluff wide open to consideration. Just because I have Blood Claws does not mean I want to fling them into every battle. Just as marines, we want to make sure we don't take needless losses in the progress. Hence why I would happily go out loud during tourneys.
In horse racing there are weight handicaps, is the jockey being any less competitive or trying less to win because his mount is handicapped or does he see it as a greater victory when he succeeds?
Angry Marine's avatar

Angry Marine · 759 weeks ago

Maybe, it's not easy to replace a horse, so one often has to make do since you can't make another one over night. Racing with the handicap does not provide any benifit to him, so more often then not, if there is a handicaped rider, it's often due to the fact that it's simply the way the horse has turned out. While in Warhammer 40K, changing a army is easier to do, just buy and paint up the figures and set them up, much easier to control then the raising of a horse and probably less expensive.

Of course it's a greater motivational victory when he succeeds, but at the same time he does not recieve anything more for playing at a handicap. In this case, the article is mainly directed against the 40K tourney organiser who's managed to prevent any root of competiveness setting in via too much soft scores. Which means that by playing a handicaped army, you are more likely to win the entire tourney based on a very subjective opinon rather then the tacticans unsubjective ability (the ability to best the other players) and breeding hostileness against those that break the fluff mould.
I don't think anyone is advocating playing to win at the cost of sociability or good manners; the point is that it is NOT bad manners to attempt to win the game you are playing. If you laugh, rub your victory in, cheat, lie, or otherwise behave poorly? Yes, those are all things that should be avoided. But "playing a cheesy army" does not make this list because it is well within the rules of the game and not a socially galling behavior.

Sometimes the objective of the game is _not_ necessarily to win; sometimes you are playing with your friends and you just want to hang. Sometimes you are teaching a new player are want to showcase how the rules work. Sometimes you just want to lay models on the table and watch everything go to hell. (This last one is particularly common with Apocalypse.) But at a tournament- which you quite accurately differentiate from "campaign weekends"- you have entered to try and claim victory.

If you've read any of my other articles, I think you'll see that I believe that improving yourself and your skills is a major part of competitive play, even more so than actually winning. But you achieve this by pushing your limits, by testing what can be done. Taking a "cookie cutter tournament build" is bad when it's simply copied and pasted from somewhere in hopes that a Magic List will grant the person victory. But when it's prepared with understanding and tested out, there is absolutely nothing wrong with it; some units and builds are simply _good_, and there's no reason to steer clear of them just because someone else has also used a similar list with success.

But it's true, many players play for many different reasons. The fact that someone has not taken a rock-hard list does not necessarily mean that they have no interest in competitive play- I myself have a fairly fluffy BA list under construction.
Angry Marine's avatar

Angry Marine · 759 weeks ago

Motivation? Generally its having the feel of a fully fledged army work how I want under me and to battle and outwit the other army. So I guess I am closer to the winning spectrum as to be honest, I'm not terribly well at conversations and as I am just starting my guys will be ugly as heck, so a good game is normally what gets me going. I can have a laugh while doing that, though some people get so wired that they simply can't and I don't' get on well with those people either. We had to boot one guy out in my other hobby because he lost his temper over a card game and almost hurt a bystander by his "why am I losing I ish pro" outburst.

So yeah, my motivation is to paint good and build armies that can do what I want it to do and overcome challanges. Though I definately would be up to messing around with skyclaws or something now and again to see how they work. Hehehe
Well said VT2!

To help people get past the Whaaaa! barrier and into compete-land, we all need to do a better job of explaining WHY they lost, and suggest changes they could make. If you see someone crying that something is overpowered, step in immediately and give them some strategies for overcoming it. Even if they don't take your advice, it will get them thinking instead of crying.

I remember being really despondent at my IG's inability to kill Orks. I was just never able to kill enough to stop them from running all over my line. They just seemed like a cheesy, unbeatable army that didn't have to follow the same rules I did. Then I found Stelek and YTTH.

I started taking flamers, moving my tanks, and blocking with infantry squads. Suddenly my game improved massively and I learned to think my way through problems instead of feeling down.
1 reply · active less than 1 minute ago
anonandon's avatar

anonandon · 759 weeks ago

Your history is a little bit shit. As in , completely wrong by decades.

You also mistake your opinion and experience to be the one true way. Any who do not believe are fail, as they know not the way.

Consider some of us were playing in 40K tournaments before you even thought it existed, and pull your head out your arse.

What really surprises me is that this needed discussed at all, either here or at Black Matts EmoRant Blog.
5 replies · active 759 weeks ago
That's the whole point of hyperbole, but I'd expect the people who visit this blog to know the diference from it, reality, and what things truly mean.

It's not about 'a one true way,' but about why we do the things that we do.
You agree to games because playing them is fun, but you're there to win. Are you really gonna disagree with this?
I think this is the distinct difference between playing with friends and going to a tournament.

When you're just hanging with friends or at the LGS, ya winning is nice but you're there to have a good time. WHen you go to a tournament you're there to have a good time but you are also attending an event which is generally designed to prop one person up and say "this dude was the best 40k player this weekend."
Angry Marine's avatar

Angry Marine · 759 weeks ago

Just depends really, if your playing with friends to chill, thats a little different. Though the desire to win is different in all of us, chilled games allows one to just try new stuff and try and win.

In tourneys, your entering to try and win and beat them a well, as meeting new people and testing your will against theirs, even if that guys a friend outside, it's just another pinicle to overcome.
This does raise an important question: how do we get Jervis in charge of Fifa?
Actually, my favorite example of "not understanding fun" was from the game I played last week.

Him: Let's play a total fun game, total IG shootout. (We both play IG.)
Me: Sounds good. I've got these breaching drills from FW I've been dying to try out for a few weeks now.
Him: Oh, no FW stuff! Tournament rules.
Me: *stunned* WTF happened to fun?
Him: Well, those are clearly overpowered.
Me: YOU ARE FIELDING MULTIPLE VENDETTAS! The most underpriced unit in the WHOLE GAME. (Note that I had a relatively tame mech list.)
Him: Well, they're in the codex, and that's not.

I honestly believe that a large portion of the "just for fun" crowd really does care very much about winning, they just don't want to have to field an optimized list to do it. Whether this is laziness or just a love for fluff can be left to the reader.
4 replies · active 759 weeks ago
It's funny that you suggest fluffy/soft gamers want to impose restrictions to make things fairer. I've never seen more restrictions or opt outs than at a tournament.
Angry Marine's avatar

Angry Marine · 759 weeks ago

The thing is though, some do, though it's not repersentation of the fluffy/soft gamer enviroment in general. Competive and causal gamers could probably be sliced down into many subchatagorys, jerks, great guys and great painters/gamers both sides of the border. ^__^
In the end we are all attempting to enjoy 40k. Fucking hold hands bitches!
I don't play at tournaments, so I wouldn't know. Truthfully, I'm a bit of a purist, and feel like tournaments should be run with the least deviation from the rules possible: you roll your games up like normal, and you see who wins. All of this stuff with comp and painting is meaningless in a raw gaming skill context. (I am a bit of a YTTH disciple in this, I suppose.) So, maybe some tournament players are hypocrites, but I'm not.

Anyways, my point is, when you're ruling out certain units as "too powerful" in a "fun game" that you, ostensibly, don't care about winning or losing in, it suddenly makes me wonder if you're actually telling the truth. Fun games are when you're supposed to be pulling out FW and the expansions, the crazy lists, and the off-the-wall tactics. I don't think many "just for fun" games actually are.

Or maybe I'm just bitter about being denied my drills... I'll try again this week. Maybe I'll compromise and just ask to take one.
If your playing for fun your opponent should be as well, so no excuses need be made. If you arn't playing for fun then the excuse is invalid.
I'm not going to go in the casual vs. hardcore debate because is just as much of a black hole as it is in videogames.

That out, we ALL PLAY FOR FUN. Period. Why else you would buy overpriced minis, paint them, learn the rules and make a list if all of the above and using them wasn't fun, huh?

I don't find comp fun. I think that is arrogant the belief that players can re-design a game better than the makers, not because I believe the "professional game designers are better" bullshit, is because if the result is bad, the wannabe designers don't suffer, the company does. If the "return to 7th edition" WHFB ETC comp isn't fun, who suffers more? The creators of that abomination or GW?

That out, I'm not saying that you shouldn't try new stuff. Experiment, proxy, etc. But playing for fun isn't an excuse for not trying your best.
Mean Green's avatar

Mean Green · 759 weeks ago

"Men, this stuff some sources sling around about wanting to play for fun and not wanting to win is a lot of baloney! Real 40K players love to fight, traditionally. All real 40K plaers love the sting and clash of battle. Real 40k'rs love a winner. and will not tolerate a loser. 40k'rs despise a coward; They play to win. COMP sucks. " Final pep-talk speech by General George S Patton, England - May 17th 1944
didn't read all the comments but i enjoyed the article. Not much of a tourney player myself but even amongst friends I play the best lists i can and try to win.

One thing I've never understood is: shouldn't GW, if fun and flavor are so cherished, write codex in a way so that fluffy lists are powerful? why shouldn't an army existing in a millennium where "there is only war" field the most effective of armies?

and if spamming good is such a horrible thing, why are we allowed to do it? (I mean via the codex, not changed after the fact by comp or other things...)
Why are you all hating on the throne of skulls format?? Its CLEARLY built for competitive play!

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