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Thursday, October 28, 2010

Forumitis: 'it's a specialist unit. You just don't know how to make the most of it.'


Most often applied to eldar units (banshees, hawks, spears, lolords, etc.), but sometimes used when discussing chaos marines, dark angels, and tau.

While you may think the blurb's got some hidden meaning, such is not the case. It's really forumitis for 'the unit is shit, but I want it to work so badly, and you totally need to buy a couple boxes of it, too.'

No, banshees aren't specialists. They want to be, but they aren't.
If they were specialists, they wouldn't need shooting to soften the target up, farseers to hand out doom, or larger numbers than the enemy.

Specialists don't need support to down the preferred target!

Sternguard are shooting specialists. If you're forced into a short-ranged firefight against sternguard, you die. Case closed.
Hammernators and tyranid warriors are 'beat-your-face-in'-specialists. If you're taking a charge from either, you die. They don't need support, characters, or whatever - you just die. End of story.
Banshees are horrible, but want to be dedicated anti-heavy infantry combat specialists. If you're charged by banshees, you'll lose some guys, then make them lose a bunch of girls for their troubles.
Should the eldar have some avengers 'softening you up' with shooting, and a farseer around to put doom on you, you aren't likely to die, because a ton of weak, non-specialist units working in 'synergy' is still not effective, and the direct opposite of how specialists normally operate.

Again; specialists don't need support to down the preferred target!
Obviously, not all options are ever gonna be good, nor will all units on offer be useful to you. So obvious and universally understood is this, everybody who's not afflicted by forumitis openly admits it.

Yet, daily ritual on warseer, dakka, BALS, and similar places includes a criminally large amount of fawning and stroking of models with extremely bad rules.
Swooping hawks, reapers, possessed, thousand sons, firewarriors, marine scouts, n00b bikers, phoenix lords - I could go on. The list is as endless as the depths of stupid attached to forumitis.

The big question isn't why all these models have such poor rules. All things considered, that's completely irrelevant to the discussion.
No, the big question is why so many people seem intent on making new players pick up really bad units, that are still costed as highly money-wise as the good stuff.
Pretending that Farsight's good is really cute. He's your toy, after all - pretend he's whatever you feel like.
Telling people with no clue that Farsight is good isn't cute, however, but terribly bad, horribly irresponsible, and shows massive weakness of character.
Disregarding Farsight's extreme level of suck, let's pretend that Farsight is an actual speciaist unit. Even then, new players shouldn't be recommend to pick him up, because they're not qualified to use him for the intended role. Why? Because new players are new, and when you're new, you don't have much experience.

Despite all their claims to the contrary, people know this. Yes, Irisado knows that banshees, nightspinners, and phoenix lords are awful, and should be left in the case, but he's not gonna tell you this, and is withholding critical information for a very important, very personal reason: he wants you to suffer like he did.

A fun game to play - on warseer especially - is pointing out that all the bad units people push and crusade for are indeed bad, and not specialists.
The first and only response you'll get is the second part of the blurb; the 'you don't know how to use it'-piece.
People love making excuses, but they also love attempting to justify things. They'll honestly and truthfully bring up the 'avengers+banshees+farseer/doom=success'-example. This is know as 'combined tactics. ' You know, that one thing you're trying to avoid by bringing in actual specialists.

'Specialist units' are doubly bad when there's something else available that does the same job, and more still. Compare striking scorpions to banshees.
Both are known bad units, yes, but there's an important lesson to be learned here.

Scorpions can purchase infiltrate, which gets them from point A to point B very quickly - all without requiring a 140+ points transport. Means you can take almost twice as many scorpions as banshees at any given time.
Scorpions wear power armor. This gives you much greater protection than carapace, thus ensuring your little predators will be fighting long after the banshees are dead, and that they don't poof instantly to heavy flamers. More value for your points, in other words.
Scorpions have strength 4, and 4 attacks each on the charge. Puny banshees are strength 3, with 3 hits each. Sure, the girls are lugging around power weapons, but does that really matter when they both kill pretty much the same number of marines on the charge, and the scorpions won't explode to the return blows? The answer is: no, it doesn't matter one bit.

In addition to all this, scorpions can field a single dude with a strength-lots superchainsword, or a powerfist. This gives you a fighting chance against armor - which the banshees can barely touch. What do the girls get? A mask which grants them initiative 10, that's almost completely useless, since few actual units in the game even top the scorpions' initiative 5.

"But banshees kill terminators!" No, they don't. They die to terminators just like everything else that's not elite infantry.
While their chances of beating terminators are a tiny bit larger than the scorpions', why would you ever consider throwing either unit against them? Really, now.
Besides beating down tactical squads, scorpions demolish most light infantry extremely quickly. Employ banshees for that. Watch them get swamped and die in seconds to orks, guardsmen, and gants.

Both really, really want to be specialists, but neither manages to reach tyranid warrior levels of usefulness or power.
Scorpions 'win,' because what they bring to the table is useful against several unit types - light armor, light infantry, small squads of heavy infantry.

Yeah, the scorpions are still horribly overcosted, poorly equipped, and not optimal for anything, but they can do something - unlike the banshees.
Banshees are part of that very exclusive club called 'useless units,' while scorpions are merely 'bad.' Bad squads in a unit made up almost entirely of bad units? Take the least bad.

Maybe the point forum-regulars are trying to make is that units like banshees, spears, and firewarriors are highly specialized in the art of failing, and we're bad for not being interested in knowing how to fail like true masters.

Comments (51)

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To be fair, Dark Reapers are very, very good at what they do - kill power armored dudes outside of cover. They're just not flexible at all, like marine Devs.
7 replies · active 753 weeks ago
Except for their weaknesses (range, lack of mobility). And the fact that their role, "killing mid-range infantry" is not actually that useful. Units that can only kill things outside of cover in 5E are... not really all that good.
How is 48" range a weakness?

The 36" tempest missile launcher with crack shot wrecks MEq. You get no cover, its indirect fire, two shots, S4 blast template and you re-roll wounds. This wipes out infantry, in cover or not, makes no difference.

What's the real weakness of Reapers? Price and survivability.
Coincidentally, that combo is a minimum of *147* points, which is more than you pay for a falcon.
Was thinking 36" for the guns, my mistake.

Tempest is nice, but as VT2 points out, that is a lot of points.
Which is why I said that is one of their weaknesses. Why are they 35 points a pop base? Who knows.
Really though, how often do you see power armor outside of cover? Massed S6 does just as well, regardless of cover, and it can threaten light armor too. Reapers are fail.
I understand exactly what you meant Kris. Line 30 tac marines up in the open 3 feet away from my 1-2 squads of dark reapers and you will see lots of dead tac marines. Put 30 tac marines in rhinos or cover and you will see dead reapers.
Yeah I looked into Farsight and though.. bugger that. What they've tried to do with him just doesn't work, especially in 5th edition. Also I always used to fear Banshees, I didn't know they were that squishy. Now I see why my friend Iggy is dropping his Banshees for Harlequins.
Awesome article there VT2.

Actually that was sarcasm.

I especially love the fact that it took you all of those words just to get across the message that Banshees are a poorer choice than Scorpions, good for you.

Here's something that you should probably get into your head:
Not everyone plays to take the best army they can, some play because they like units or heaven forbid the fluff. In those cases, sometimes you might take a sub par unit, but there's nothing wrong with trying to get the most out of your sub par unit. As per your example, Scorpions in your opinion are bad, but that doesn't stop people from trying to get the most out of them.

Have you ever thought that it might just be that it is not Irisado's problem understanding this, but actually you (Especially bad form on the bagging of other people like that, especially on a blog and not on the actual 40kOnline forum)?
10 replies · active 753 weeks ago
If you like a crappy unit, then more power to you. What's stupid is telling other people that they're awesome.

I love Meganobz and use them when I can. Of course, I know they're garbage and won't deceive people into thinking otherwise just because I can club seals with them.
I think both Eltnot and Chumby are right here.

You can use subpar units if it fits your army theme.
You shouldn't go around telling people they are the ducks nuts if they aren't.
Also

"I especially love the fact that it took you all of those words just to get across the message that Banshees are a poorer choice than Scorpions, good for you. "

In the real world, people justify their arguments with evidence. "This unit is bad because of etc, etc." I dont know whether thats a new concept or anything, but I'm taking a shining to it.
So you don't want posts of "I'm awesome. I use this. You should, too."?

...

Damnit! Now I have to put effort in.
No, thats fine Kirbs. Eltnot is just commenting on VT's waffle quotient, which is a little high in this post.
It always is.
No, it's definitely Irisado.
Here's the fun thing. Irisado is so crazy, he feels the need to defend the 'specialist units' on all forums ever, under the same name.
I thought the bagging (Is it bagging if the criticism is constructive?) only occured after the forum began banning people who spoke against the majority? Thats how it worked with 40kOnline from what I gathered.

As for the article itself, its about forums in general, from the way I read it, and only uses warseer as the example (A good example, mind you). He's outlining why simply calling a unit a 'specialist' unit doesn't actually make it the case.
If that's what Irisadro is trying to say, let him say it.

"I am an Ork player, and occasionally find Weirdboyz and Shokk Attack Gunz entertaining choice to use. They even occasionally do great things in-game, like the one time I rolled boxcars and wiped out an entire Genestealer unit which threatened to kill me with Outflanking."

Saying something like "This unit (or tactic too; there was the whole whirlwind romance with N-N-Ninja Tau) is misunderstood! You lack the imagination or understanding on how to properly use it" is both being dishonest, and giving terrible advice from a competitive standpoint. This is irksome if someone originally asks a question from what appears to be a competitive point-of-view ("Are Banshees generally worth it in an all-comer list?" vs "I would like to use my Banshees, is there any way I can use them without sacrificing too much ability to win?").

It's sometimes-telling differences like these that lead to being banned from discussions you know...
Holy Crap. We agree on something. I've been saying Scorpions > Banshees for ages.
3 replies · active 753 weeks ago
Don't forget about circles being round, fluger. ;)

Eldar aren't great, but if played well, and if your opponent makes mistakes, they can still do stuff well. Granted, this is assuming Mechdar. Eldar will get their chance at this when their new dex runs around, and will have their own special flavour of space-elf, possibly combined with cheese wizardry.
MeanGreen's avatar

MeanGreen · 753 weeks ago

Unless they get stuck in the cycle where their 5th edition dex pops out two months before 6th edition rules come out....yet more time being underpowered....
wait, your talking about dark angels right?
Lol I haven't poked the eldar tactica in ages. So many people in their get upset when you tell them their favorite unit isn't competitive and trying to convince them otherwise is such a waste of time. Was entertaining at least thou.
Ive seen this argued so many times on the 40konline forums. It always starts off with someone encouraging somebody to run a bad unit for fun, or so their army isnt cookie cutter, or because only WAAC jerks use good units. It then ends with stuff such as "well you dont have to run good units, what if its fluffy, I dont care about winning". I think Irisado among others have beat the durphurp competitive is boring/cookie cutter horse into glue, which was then used to assemble some grey hunters.
Well-said.

If you want to use a sub-par unit because you dig it, THAT IS UP TO YOU. Use it because you like it and you enjoy using it.

Don't use it because it's good (if it's not good). Don't tell other people it's good when it's not. Given the high cost of 40k, you'll piss people off when they dump $40-50 on a unit and find out it's a crappy performer.

Honestly, if you want to friggin' keep people in the hobby, you want to give them accurate advice on the utility of stuff. Run Farsight because it's cool, not because he's 'good.' And when telling how something's performed, GIVE THEM CONTEXT. Every once in a while good units will do bad or vice-versa, it's the nature of a dice game.
7 replies · active 753 weeks ago
You're my favorite <3 .
it gets worse when some noobie is bullied into running some all around crappy and expensive army like jetbike eldar, no vehicle chaos marines, or an ork army with 10 trukks because its 'unique' and 'fun' as opposed to an army that can actual perform and let them grow on the table top.
Which is why everyone should be clear when they dicuss things. I think it's pretty obvious that 3++ for example is geared towards competitive gaming and it's noted otherwise when it's more fluff oriented, for giggles or simply trying to get the best out of a unit.
Here's a fun game:
- Wow Tau look cool
- Hey, neat! A forum just for Tau!
- Oh really that's a good unit?
- Buy it
- That one, too?
- Buy it
- Aw, these guys know how to use everything in the codex!
- Buy one of everything (yes, really)
- Play some games
- Well, crap.

If I convert my crappy models and buy some new ones I'll still end up paying nearly as much as I would for a new army. I'm thinking maybe the Sanguine Geometry this time.
At least you weren't lulled into buying 4 boxes of firewarriors when you were just starting out.
Nope. :)

3 boxes. :(
People said I needed 'volume,' and told me crisis suits were awful.
I believed them.
Looks like I need more hammernators. I've started repainting my swiftclaws into Codex bikers.
Poor Eldar, saddled with a bunch of bad units. I hope Dark Eldar are a preview of what Eldar players can expect.
3 replies · active 753 weeks ago
No, Fester. Eldar can't turn to the awesome side, so they'll fail around with their baddy dex, then get updated. On the plus side, 5th ed is good, so anything they get in 5th will last them a while.
More copy-pasting from old codex books?

...I'm kidding, but still sort-of sore about harlequins.
I thought that this thread would deal with Swooping Hawks or Shining Spears.
1 reply · active less than 1 minute ago
No, no.
Those are covered later, in the 'they work for me!'-post.
I see to which current thread on Warseer you're referring to. Truth to be told, the proponents of Banshees there have admitted that they sometimes faced foot-slogging Tactical squads and Grey Hunters, or Vanilla Assault Marines. No wonder Aspect Warriors perform well if your opponent is running a 4th Edition army...
6 replies · active 753 weeks ago
Even then, you have to set up your assault (if using a Wave Serpent, otherwise please shoot me!), have 3A which hit on 4s, kill on 5s and a 30 woman squad of Banshees will kill ~5 Marines. Not bad when those remaining Marines will kill a single Banshee in return and get Doom in there to up it to 7+ Marines and negligible return attacks. But then wave to a transport or a dreadnought or a unit with invulnerable saves, or a horde or someone charging you and they plain suck.

Why again do we need help killing Marines when there are Fire Prisms and a plethora of S6 around even if they are on foot? I mean come on, a S6 AP3 pieplate or 2x S9 AP2 miniplates kills marine for a 100% chance of not losing anything (unless your guys are hanging around the blast zone...).

AH forums <3 .
Vinsanity's avatar

Vinsanity · 753 weeks ago

Lol, like the time my Eldritch Storm killed my Serpent and some Guardians and some marines. Classic stuff ;)
That was the best use of Storm. Ever. And I didn't even have to cast it :p .
Wait, what? 30 HBs should kill 15 marines... (not that it matters as they suck).

30 HBs, 90 attacks, 45 hits, 15 wounds...
I assumed that 30 was a typo and he meant 10, as that's actually a legal squad size n' all.
Lol ya sorry, mean attacks (or 10 shees)...
Anonannoyed's avatar

Anonannoyed · 753 weeks ago

Isn't blog-raging because you "lost" a forum conversation a type of forumitis too? You can't "win" at forums, news at 11. Yeah, people give bad advice on forums, okay, deal. Toss in a "but who will think of the children/newbies?" wail and it would be perfe... oh, it's in there.

StelekVT2.0 is really starting to bug me with his "can't win there, so come rage here" MO.

Too much complaining about derogatorynameSeer lately and not enough gaming theory. Is the well dry?
1 reply · active 751 weeks ago
Nah.
I have many, many sketches planned, but the reason there was so much forumitis is the popularity. People like reading it, and it doesn't take forever to formulate, get inspiration for, or finish.

Now I'm in a creative slump, most likely caused by all the hospital visitin' and other stuff going on, but I'm trying to get back on track.
Sir_Prometheus's avatar

Sir_Prometheus · 728 weeks ago

The for the record, Farsight is awesome. Don't why you mentioned him in a post about "specialist units" though, he's not anything of the sort.
Calling attention to this post, in that the second pic blocks the text.

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