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Thursday, October 7, 2010

Forumitis: 'MSU is cookie-cutter. Real armies don't look like that!'

Up until the mid stages of the second world war, armies did indeed look like huge masses of coats and rifles, but that was almost 70 years ago, and what worked back then is now horribly outdated.
Small, self-contained, mobile, properly outfitted and trained units are called modern warfare. In warhams, we say MSU - multiple small units.

A 'real' unit (american army) is five to twelve people, mounted aboard an APC (rhino), an infantry fighting vehicle (razorback, chimera, wave serpent), or an armored car (trukk, landspeeder storm).
Every single person in the unit wears armor, wields a carbine or battle rifle with underslung grenade- or shotgun-module, and comes blinged with essential equipment, tools, ammunition, etc.
Those who don't are specialists, packing support weapons, extra gear - so on.

It's true that once upon a time, infantry with coats charged machineguns, but times changed - a universal realization, if you will.

The world recognized the stupidity in rushing waves of unarmored, almost untrained, inexperienced, ill-equipped men against machinegun nests, because it cost thousands of lives to gain a meter of ground.
Yeah, the russians had their huge armies of conscripts and untrained tank crews, and didn't see a need to change this even when WWII broke out.
Yeah, they lost TEN MILLION!!! men in their war against germany.

Meanwhile, germany 'only' lost five million men. This while being gangbanged by pretty much everybody else in the world, except japan.
Just how did a tiny, tiny country manage a 'mere' 5 million losses against two superpowers and all their friends? Very simple, actually. The tiny country invented modern warfare.

Rather than employ a gazillion inexperienced, untrained conscripts, they had actual soldiers. Tanks were state-of-the-art, and at the start of the war, invincible to allied attacks. The plan was to attack very fast and unexpectedly, with a punishing initial aerial bombardment - blitzkrieg.

This style of warfare is mirrored in the vanilla marine codex. It's what they do both in background and on tabletop.

No, you don't need to know this, but it's fun to point out whenever MSU is brought up, and someone starts talking about 'real armies.'
I could go on about it, but enough's been said already. Massed infantry formations are a bad move for real, and a bad move in warhams.
"But all those little units are such easy killpoints." So no more whining about it being cheese? Uhh, okay.

6x5, versus 1x30 , equals the 30 being able to kill one of the 5-man teams a turn.
Yes, even though the mass can potentially kill all six 5-man units with perfect rolling, it's still limited to shooting at one target a turn. In short, overkill comes to bite you in the ass once more.
The small units, meanwhile, can move around as they please, and either shoot your huge mass, or run onto objectives.
Sure, you'll eventually wear them down, but since it takes you a minimum of six turns to kill all of them, you're not even guaranteed to do it in a standard game.

If we're dealing with troops versus troops (likely; few other units come in large sizes), the dinky squads are an obvious problem for the mass, because, as hinted at above, it can only kill one of them a turn.
'Hidden' problems also exist - such as the tiny squads all getting a lesser boss who can take killy gear, and, most of the time, the little squads themselves are allowed dangerous guns or implements.
Six units tend to carry six special weapons in total, while the huge blob won't get nearly as many.
The six small squads can target six separate enemy units (meltaguns versus six transports, anyone?), while the blob has to shoot all its firepower against the same target. Overkill, again.
Multiple units open up the possibility of having more transports. Should all six squads take a transport each, the mass now has to destroy twelve units - not six.

Yes, it's true that five models don't have that much of a life-expectancy, especially if shot at - or charged- by thirty, but thirty versus ten would end the same way, too.

So, let's sum up.
You get more total units. More total units equal more special/heavy weapons, and squad leaders. Each tiny unit often lets you buy a transport of some kind. Small squads are no more survivable versus huge units than slightly larger squads.
Not only is multiple small units faster, more mobile, and more killy - they're also more flexible.
Your huge squad can only occupy one part of the battlefield, but the smaller ones can spread out. Why would you take the huge unit again?

Oh, right - 'fluff.'
Does fluff justify it? For some armies (imperial guard, tyranids, orks, demons), yes.
Space marines (all space marines), tau, the inquisition, eldar, dark eldar...do not have fluff that talks about massive hordes. In total, 11 of the game's armies are 'min-maxers,' even in the official background.

Wait.
Does this mean everybody who's accused mechanized space marines of 'not being fluffy' are wrong, and little more than sore losers? Yes, that's exactly what it means.
Same deal for those who've whined over blood angels, templars, dark angels, sisters of battle, chaos marines, gray knights, dark eldar, eldar, tau, or space wolves 'min-maxing,' coming in compact elite forces, or running the dreaded MSU-style.

As for it being 'cookie-cutter' - well, would you rather play horde versus horde until the day hell freezes over? "YES! OH, GOD, YES!" There's another very important thing that people forget about MSU, one that leads to much whining when the aforementioned foot hordes clash: time.

Compared to ten~ vehicles/small squads, it takes a significantly longer amount of time to shuffle large, unwieldy infantry hordes around, and games become tedius, droning, and boring descents into mediocrity very quickly. Yes, you have your giant mass of slow, green boyz, now it's my turn.
Oh, look. Your boyz are no more. How totally new.

Predictable slogs into midfield, where the horde meets a sudden end, aren't exactly stimulating, or even cheap to stage. After all, those dudes cost more than the handful of vehicles, mounted infantry, or small, rock hard squads you should be fielding.

Rule of thumb: no matter what game, sport, or theater of war you're in, multiple small units crush enormous hordes.
In games where armor's got obvious mobility- and combat-advantage over infantry (like in reality), and even the lightest vehicle (almost everybody's got transport-access) is considered a 'hard' target, only those who really hate change will stick to foot and hordes. In the end, they've themselves to blame for not playing to the game's strengths, or understanding the system.

Footdar. Really? That's the most unfluffy combo in the game.
And you call yourself 'a social gamer.' Get out of here, you WAAC jerk.
By the emperor, at least three quarters of all armies posted on forums are large foot hordes, with no flavor units, and lots of troops.

Talk about cookie-cutter.

Comments (8)

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It's not a cookie it's just a giant sprawling pile of raw dough
Good article.
+1. In a somewhat related note, Sun Tzu actually talked of the sub-division of large armies in small units, each taking the orders of the element over them. 5 man, 10 man, 20 man, 40 man and so. That way controlling many men is like controlling few.

But enough non-warhams related talk. Good article.
I'm sorry i just don't see what your getting at here. I'm not saying your necessarily wrong in your assessment, just that I don't see it.

Razr Spam does not = modern military unit.

It can, there is the possibility that one could utilize rapid response units, using mobilization and precision strikes to engage a massive enemy where his numbers count for nothing. All the while using your superior training, mobility and weaponry to sweep the enemy aside as you engage him in a one on one battle where his slow uncoordinated units cant react in time to your terrifyingly brutal offensive...

...but you are not going to do that....

Your going to sit your ass in that razorback until after several rounds of shooting, I force you out. Your not going to pull off some risky Coup de grâce attempt to take out my 30 dug in guardsmen and smash through my defenses, by pushing a flank and disembarking your entire army to lay down a wall of fire, then retreat when I try to retaliate. You simply won't.
Why?
Because its far simpler and more efficient to sit at mid range and lob plasma/lascannon shots while the dakka preds wear me down. Its just not worth it from a games mechanic perspective:

A. Skill level
Planning anything out, especially in 40k, is hard. As the inherent wrench-in-the-works style of gameplay makes having "separate units working as one" a task that is certainly easier said than done. The quite numerous variables, that go into 5 separate units seamlessly taking down a single large target all while maintaining tactical superiority, is a difficult hurtle because the whole operation becomes a mess if more than a handful of those data sets differ. This makes the "setup and maneuvering of separate" units into a task that requires a great deal of knowledge, ranging from basic rules interactions,statistics, anticipating the opponent, and guessing range. Meaning that most "cookie cutter razr spam" lists will forgo with the advanced military tactics, in favor of the much simpler point-click style of play.

B. Metal Bawkses
In 40k you never ever leave your transport unless your certain you can win. your transport Is simply too good of protection to leave, so creating a strategy where you have to leave that box in order to bring that 5x6 against that 30x1 is silly.

C. They get them too
A mechanized army, especially of the shooting variety, is often a fairly straightforward and effective way to play; and in 5th, your going to face them. So the whole concept of your MSU army getting some sort of advantage over all the other is irrelevant as most people seem to incorporate them into their armies already.

D. I can still shoot
Funnily enough people hate BLOS terrain(subjective, depends on where you are), because it makes their point-click-esque armies "harder" to play, so the possibility of keeping your units safe through any means of "separating" or "partitioning off" a force is thrown to the wind on a great many a table; as I (as the opposing player) really don't give a sh*t how well you planned that attack out, I can still see the big toe of that sternguard , have fun eating the rest of my armies shooting without a metal box to protect you.

The concept of razorspam being an innately life-like army is a bit absurd when it rarely is tailored in such a fashion. It certainly could, and you do make a legitimate point with how it "could" be played. But In reality Ive never seen it done with razors, with rhinos once or twice, with Elfdars, plenty, but never with razors.
I think you missed a key point of MSU in 5th edition. Whilst I won't comment on the military metaphor as I have no military training, I generally don't like military relations to 40k. 40k isn't the real-world and whilst it's a good game and you can imagine how units are being affected psychologically, etc., in terms of game balance it's never going to be realistic. Anyway, I'll leave it to the military buffs to agree/disagree with your assessment there but in relation to 5th edition, MSU has become so much better because of point streamlining and mech efficiency.

1) transports are no longer death traps
1b) tanks are very durable
2) transports and most tanks in general are significantly cheaper
3) most units are significantly cheaper
4) most units can take a dedicated transport option
5) anyone can ride in anyone else's transport. there are only rules restricting where you start

What this ultimately does with more aggressive transports like the Razorback, Chimera, Wave Serpent, Dark Eldar Raider, etc. is basically give you more FoC. A Razorwolf spam list essentially has 6 Elites, 12 Troops, 3 Fast Attack, 4 HQ and 6 Heavy Support slots and whilst half of those Elite, Troops and Heavy Support are Rhinos or Razorbacks, the Space Wolf army has essentially doubled the forces it can field effectively at similar point values to before. Remember, being able to swap transports and not having transports be metal death traps is very important.

I think Vt2's article covers the theory of why MSU works. More targets, more fire potential, more mobility, etc. but doesn't say why. I'm big on why hence the above :p . I agree that people whining about cookie-cutter and net-lists should shut up, because there is no point and click army out there and if your army can't deal with it, adapt or shut it. There will always be whining though...
1 reply · active 756 weeks ago
Shhhh, boss! That all comes in follow-up posts ;)
I'd like to point out that Russia's strategy was not "run mooks into machineguns" except when they had no other options. Germany's army was actually, by most standards, rather inexperienced at the beginning of the war. While the blitzkrieg was a very innovative and effective tactic, it mainly worked because they were (to cop a phrase) punching baby seals. Poland was the closest they came to fighting a "real" army in the early war, and they were still employing cavalry. France's armed forces were nowhere near the state they were in during the first world war and their air force- critical in the new era of war- was laughable; even had their defenses not been bypassed, it's unlikely they would have lasted long against Germany's modernized forces.
1 reply · active 756 weeks ago
The MSU ideal does not work well here for the primary reason that "offboard support" essentially does not exist. A mech company fighting from Bradleys/Razorbacks vs a horde of giblies on foot in a bunch of ruins is gonna have a tough time. 40K does not emulate the real modern battlefield, in part because there is no support (thus no time for planning or preparation). Further, what support units marines have were granted laughable short range. 48 inches for a whirlwind...LOL. Range for support should be board-wide for marines (thunderfire sorta goes that way...the apocalypse formation for whirlies with a LS spotter sorta goes the right way to correct stuff).

Overall, the best SM list is going to be well rounded - heavies have to emulate offsite support, fast attack have to emulate airmobile units or air support, tropps are the SMUs and elites have to be tooled as special forces for raids and assaults on high value command nodes. HQs have to emulate at best force multipliers, they themselves are best not leading the elites.

You can doe pretty well for the above just choosing the best rated units in this website's SM codex review "good" units...

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