Kirb your enthusiasm!

WEBSITE HOSTED AT: www.3plusplus.net

"Pink isn't a color. It's a lifestyle." - Chumbalaya
"...generalship should be informing list building." - Sir Biscuit
"I buy models with my excess money" - Valkyrie whilst a waitress leans over him


Thursday, October 28, 2010

How to: salvaging your tyranids (#1)


I've been scouring the forum wasteland a lot lately. Partially for forumitis fuel, partially because it entertains me. Primarily, scouting for the biggest herds of whiners, so there won't be any fun missed when dark eldar hit shelves on the fifth of november. In my perilous quests, there are but two things I deflect and ignore outright: dark angels in general, and tyranids whining about their book in particular.

Both these are hilario
us at first, but quickly become extremely boring, predictable, and outright stupid. You know the angels are gonna cry that they have a bad book, written by people they used to worship, who never did anything bad prior, ever (Jervis wrote the book, you dolts, and is responsible for the fail 'streamlining' of 5th edition), then go out on huge, outrageous rants, which others quickly join in on, turning them into bizarre orgies of madness. Tyranids are, well - even bigger whiners.
The thing with the tyranids is, they have a good codex. For some unexplainable reason, they don't seem to notice. It's almost like they're reading a different book then I, but I didn't think much of it until recently.

Then I started searching, and asking questions.
Turns out the answers were there all along, but fiction's always fit in to replace reality. Because of that, this little series of articles now exists.

Tyranids.
The most controversial codex release since dark angels. Generally despised by the players, and hated by everybody, this is that one book no one likes, puts up with, or even respects. It's a complete failure in every sense of the word. Warseer's dedicated so much time to the 'tyranids suck'-crusade, there simply has to be some truth in it. Right?

No, not quite.
You see, new players have very little problem with this book, and the older, actually good ones, don't experience any, either.
Unfortunately, the large majority of people who picked up tyranids way, way back did so because they wanted to push monsters across the field, preferably without thought or consideration. Sadly, this is true.

3rd and 4th edition tyranids: push monsters across the field. Pray for victory against experienced opponents.
5th edition tyranids: is an actual 5th edition army, with all that entails. Yes, even transports.

"What the hell!? I read VT2 because I wanna see waffling! Don't tease me like this!" Fine. Let me put my chef's hat on, and I'll serve some waffles.

3rd edition tyranids started out as a handful of very bland pages in the huge rulebook. Until late 2001, this was all you got.
Back then, you had a grand total of one build at your disposal: stealershock. Now, it's a generally accepted fact of life that genestealers aren't all they're cracked up to be these days, but during the dark ages, genestealers had power weapons. Yes, they were acceptable banshees.

Yeah, all the usual suspects were of course part of the range back then, too: warriors, rippers, carnis, tyrants, gaunts (catch-all for the small ones), gargoyles, and that's it, basically.

Very poor, wouldn't you say? Yes, you would, but you're probably not a 'core' tyranid player.
If you ask any of them, they'll tell you how great those rules were, and how OMGWTFBBQ tyranids were. How 'people feared their charges' - which we didn't, since 'stealers died like crazy to stormbolters and bolters, plus rarely reached combat in the first place.

Upon release of their actual codex, lots of people whined.
Genestealers weren't as good, obviously. New rending (invented specifically for tyranids) just wasn't the same as power weapons, and tyranids had gotten the shaft completely with all the new rules, items, mutations, guns, and psychic powers. Truly, tyranids never get anything new, ever, and are hated by the designers.

Notice a trend yet? I've added visual hints, in case you're not big into reading.

Compared to books of today, 3rd edition tyranids were horrible, but when measured against other books of its time, it was exceptionally well-written, and allowed a great deal of customization. Still, this wasn't quite as good as power weapons on genestealers, so the players with huge collections bitched and moaned all over the place.

4th edition came and went quickly, but tyranids were one of few armies that saw an actual update.
No longer were you allowed to 'mutate' individual critters in each unit ("NOOOOOOOOOO! ALL MY PRECIOUS HIVE NODES I NEVER ENDED UP USING!").
Replacing this were stat changes all across the board, for almost everything you could field.
Two randomly selected hive tyrants were very likely to differ greatly in statlines, gun strength, cost, and bling, despite supposedly coming from the same book entry.
This caused many, many problems, and is one of few things in the game's history that could seriously be considered broken. Not the power of stat changes, but how it made every match-up and game a 'fun surprise.'
And yes, this still wasn't anywhere near the might of genestealers with power weapons, so everybody whined, then whined some more for good measure.

A cute thing about 4th was the new, updated carnifex. This was not whined on, for reasons that will be explained in the next sentence.
See, Andy Chambers saw fit to give every single piece of plastic in the kit actual in-game rules, so you could have statline-modded carnis, with frag grenades, extra d3 attacks, further extra d6 attacks (at the cost of your base 2! boo-hoo!), initiative lots bonus attack, extra wound, 2+ armor save, spore mines, bonus rippers, bonus unit strength on the charge, built-in spinefists, dual heavy weapons...
Before anyone asks, yes, you could have pretty much all of this at the same time, and yes, the combo you fielded was guaranteed to have a name.

All 'fex builds had names, period.
There's spinefex, sniperfex, hugfex, venomfex, crusherfex, screamer-killer, uberfex, tankfex, gunfex, assassinfex, dakkafex, blingfex, and many more.
Obviously, you could have three megamonsters as heavy support, and everybody did, because the rest of the heavy support on offer was horribly poor, but you could also take three lesser fexes as elites - which happened to be a massive blessing, since EVERY elite choice was horrible, too!
It's almost like they wanted to sell a gazillion carnis, to replace the tyranid warriors everybody bought during 3rd.

Long story short: tyranids used to be a monobuild, easily worse and more predictable back then than lash chaos are now. You had your six carnis, a tyrant, handful of ripper bases, and maybe 12 total genestealers. That was 'nidzilla.'
Nidzilla never won a single tournament, ever, because lascannons, plasmaguns, and missiles were the melta of 4th edition, gunlines were everywhere, plus actual cover was rarer than transports.

Enter 5th edition.
New units in all slots. Better units. More gear. More rules. Things are generally cheaper, statlines are immutable but stronger, guns have one profile, and the rules are easier to get your head around.

Basically, everything got better, and what used to be overpriced/underpriced has now been changed to fit in with reality. No more pushing carni boxes by the thousands, either.
Your army can move, is less auto-fail without synapse, there's lots of choice, and you're actually playing the game now - not shuffling your slow-ass units towards the other player's guns. There's a built-in response to guns now, actually, called 'massed guns of your own.'

Yet, they cry. Oh, how they cry.
They cry for many reasons, or so they say. They miss mutable statlines. They miss the 'one' venom cannon, because 'it was great for killing tanks.' Depending on who you ask, all new units are terrible, or too powerful. Whine, whine, lies, lies.
As was hinted at in the opening segment, whining is a theme of tyranid players. It's like chaos always being 'overpowered,' and thinking of eldar as a 'finesse' army. The few loyal followers of the Lion might strike up really huge rants occasionally, but their moaning is NOTHING compared to what tyranids do now, and have always done.
It's a definining characteristic of the players this particular race seems to attract.

A fun game is uttering the four powerwords when tyranid players are close. Tervigon, trygon, tyrannofex, eternal warrior.
Instant hilarity, guaranteed. If you say 'codex creep' in a dark angels thread, the fish won't bite unless it's wrapped in something juicy, but the tyranids are mindless, and open to even the most basic of trolling techniques.
Obviously, they're easily enraged, but we all knew this already, didn't we? Yes, we did, but there's more.

'Core' tyranid players almost never win games. No, really.

It's true.
Initial theories included unscientific things like 'they spend all their time whining, rather than playing,' and 'too busy whining to read the codex.' Then it hit me.
They don't know how to play, because last time they did any actual playing was 12 years ago, during 3rd edition, and what worked back then 'worked' during early 4th, but's been completely useless and outdated since.

Few 'core' tyranid player even owns a plastic trygon, a converted tervigon, or has held in her or his hand a hive guard.
They loved the 3rd edition book because 'stealers were so easy. Rush and go. 4th edition required the same stealers, six carnis, and a cheap tyrant. Even more rush and go, with 2+ save on four guys. Amazing tactics at work!
Nowadays, when you have to, you know, secure objectives with troops to even have a chance, they're displeased. They just want their precious lolifexes and sniperfexes.
"So why not count them as tyrannos? You get blasts and a big gun. Isn't that what the sniper was all about?" No, because it's new, and all new things are evil.

In some ways, this is a bit like former tourney 'winners' in fantasy, who are still up in arms and massively butthurt, all 'cause 8th edition made them lose their 'tactical genius.' Contrary to what you've been told, in the whacky world of warhams, it's very possible to lose something you never had.

"An attempt to show the whiners what they're missing out on?" One can hope. True whiners don't want to change, but there are others out there, who're on the fence about the tyranids. Survivors of forumitis, mostly. This is for them.

Next up, a look at the tools and toys available to you. I deleted the 200 power weapon pictures; formatting people! lol

Comments (70)

Loading... Logging you in...
  • Logged in as
AMMacBride's avatar

AMMacBride · 752 weeks ago

Unfortunately, this is closer to the truth than I'd like. I've been posting on TheTyranidHive less and less, mostly because many people bitch about the Codex, those who aren't are bitching about the few bad calls in the FAQ, and the few of us who don't fall into either category are stuck answering stupid rules questions and trying to explain to people they have to learn the units that they have, and that there are plenty good ones.
1 reply · active 752 weeks ago
You are doing everyone a great service then MacBride. Defeat the masses :) .
FortyThree's avatar

FortyThree · 752 weeks ago

well, I started nids not very long ago, without ever having played them before. I had read the older codex a couple of times and that's it. When I looked at the new codex I was overjoyed. I really think that most of the people who whine do so because they have to change their style of play - but that's not something that purely happens with Tyranids, although I'll agree that it seems to be more often than guaranteed. There is a silly assumption that having five billion kinds of wargear means having a more customizable and adaptable codex, but it's not like that at all. They whine carnifexes are useless, but they ignore the fact that in exchange for nerfing carnifexes we got tervis, t-fexes, trygons, harpies, and mawlocs. I think it's purely out of laziness, and it happens EVERY time a new codex comes out, and a bunch of people go OMGWTF I CANT USE THE EXACT SAME BUILD ANYMORE FUCK YOU GW I HAVE TO BUY MORE STUFF I DONT WANT TO DO THAT ARGGGHHH.

43
2 replies · active 752 weeks ago
But Carnifexes are still good! They just aren't *take 6, put in list* anymore. You have to think about them. I mean you can have 3 in a friggin squad!

I remember having hours of fun with the 3rd/4th ed codex knowing I'd never get the models (i.e. winged Tyrant) but it was just great to be able to make oddjob statlines and squads then 5th came around and I was able to dust them off and use them in a list with the grand purchase of two plastic fexes for tervigons and 6 hive guard.
Yes! Carnifexes + Catalyst = Gold.

People whine about how they suck in comparison to what they used to be, but don't mention how they got a BS increase and Attacks increase as well. Also, on the charge they attack before powerfists, which means you can do some damage quickly before the heavy hitters tear into you.
What? Your telling me nidzilla wasn't competitive? But everyone said it was super OP stinky blue cheese!? Even white dwarf did an article on how awesome it was O=!!
Ha! What do you mean Nids are good? Whineseer said they totally suck! I think you're spot on, the older players (myself included initially) didnt know what to do with the new dex as it was so different so a lot of they threw their hands in the air and gave up. Personally ive been asking for help on this blog and others and practicing my lists and game play. Its amazing what practice and actual tactics will do for you......So thankfully we arent all sooks and whiners.
I Just read the new tyranid codex the other day. I can't give a better recommendation than this. I'm going to be starting a Tyranid Army.
A_Rats_tale's avatar

A_Rats_tale · 752 weeks ago

In a 6 round tournament in Ireland this past weekend Tyranids managed to place 4th and 6th. That said the lack of assault grenade equivalents across the army does hurt the gaunt/stealer Tyranid units. Have also noticed that Tyranid seem to struggle more against Wolves than Guard but then that is anecdotal.
5 replies · active 752 weeks ago
That has a lot to do with the points efficient long fangs and the fact that almost every unit is decent in assault. 14+ missile shots a turn destroy most monstrous creatures, and the troops are capable of dealing with the little guys.

IG relies a lot on close-range shooting to hurt tanks (and thus to reliably hurt MCs) which puts them in range to be overrun by the small units. The Valkyrie/Vendetta is their best platform for taking on MCs and they are usually the first things targeted by the hive guard and tyrannofexes.
That's pretty much just a myth.
Rather than expect all units to come with grenades, you run warriors. Now grey hunters in cover won't annihilate you when you charge them. Besides, you do have grenades. They're called lash whips.

Problems lie in people not wanting to take warriors because 'INSTANT DEATH! WAAH! WAAAAAAH!!'
Or Shrikes with a gargoyle screen and Catalyst on the Shrikes. 4+/4+ against most fire power and just 4+ against S8 or AP2/1 stuff. They get there fast and then kill whatever they want.

Seriously, what the heck is up, Vt2? We should start talking about Orks so we can argue more. ;)
Clearly, instant death is a serious issue in 5th edition.
But the orks are so overdone at this point :(
A_Rats_tale's avatar

A_Rats_tale · 752 weeks ago

Agreed. I did only say Gaunts and stealers. I do think the Broodlord would be seen more often if he had allowed genestealers to come with grenades.

I freely admit I have not used the Tyranids competively but in my 'casual' play I have experienced many problems with the sheer volume (14+) of S8 shots the wolves can put out. As such I don't think 3xTrygon are all they are made out and instead prefer spending the points on warriors... in fact I run 2 units. One small 3 man unit with Talons and Deathspitters, who normally babysit the termagants holding the home objective, and one 6 man unit with Lash whips and Prime to deal with those pesky GH units I so often encounter. The latter are screened by Gargoyles as they move upfield along with a Tervigon. Consequently I find that with fewer MC's those there are actually survive longer due to Target Saturation.
Testify Bother!

Bang on the money VT2
Hey now, some of us ancients remember _second_ edition Tyranids, when genestealers absolutely were death to anything they encountered, you could build a carnifex that was essentially unkillable short of a vortex grenade, and it so badly scarred my gaming buddies that they treat 5th edition Tyranids as though this is still true.

My main complaint about Tyranids these days is just a matter of taste. In second edition the Swarm reigned supreme. You had a small number of big bugs, and then buried everything under a never ending horde of gaunts. It had gotten much harder to make that kind of army work as editions have gone on, and I do miss it a bit. However, that has not stopped me from generally sweeping all before me at my FLGS and hearing the lamentation of their sororitas.

I'm also a bit peeved at GW for the high percentage of units without models. While I am enjoying the conversion opportunities, it does give one the impression that they didn't take this release quite as seriously as they take some others.
8 replies · active 752 weeks ago
I think the lack of models for some units is why some Nid players never use them (granted not everyone likes converting).

If there was a Tyrannofex model I would Imagen that would be a up swing in their use outside of Vassal.
Lots of codexes are doing this lately though. Happened with Guard, happened with Wolves, happened with BA, heck happened with Daemons, and looks like it's going to happen with DE. This is their (stupid) plan, to stagger releases into "waves."
I think that Tyranids got hit with it worst though, out of the recent codexes. I was flipping through the book last night, checking off things that still don't have a model. It was a long list, and it included lynchpins like Tervigons and Tyrannofexes. Honestly, a brand-new metal model for the Pyrovore? Including it the codex at all was already sort of inexplicable, but then making it one of the featured new releases? Baffling.

My guess is that they don't want to add too many new plastic kits to the line, so they are encouraging people to convert from the fex kit. Which I am doing and enjoying, but I suspect it is contributing to the toxic miasma surrounding the codex on the interwebs. If there was an awesome model for the harpy I think people would be much more willing to give it a try, but if it isn't clear on paper that they are pure awesome on a stick (see: hive guard), then you are going to be a lot more reluctant to go through the effort of converting one up.
TKE had a good post about this recently. Someone go find it! Will summarise basically...

Plastic moulds cost a lot and who knows how popular something will end up being. Look at TWC; competitive players love them but fluff bunnies hate them and whilst GW would hopefully be able to predict the competitiveness of units (to a degree) it doesn't mean they can get the sales they need. Looking at the DE they are releasing all of the 'basics' whilst looking at Tyranids and the really new stuff which has gotten a lot of uses was released as well. Venomthropes, Hive Guard, Trygons, etc. Sure no Tervigons/T-Fexes but they aren't "that" hard to convert. So when we complain about models we do have to take into account GW's projected sales and costs into consideration and how popular a codex may or may not be. Remember a lot of us are holding off on DE until the FAQ and the FAQ could potentially be better or worse (or come faster or later) depending on early sales.

That being said one would expect GW to recognise demand (i.e. TWC) and produce models ASAP but then you have to take into account design schedule, etc. but still *shrug*. When has GW ever been that good :P?
That still doesn't excuse the Pyrovore. ;)
What excuse do you need to run what is essentially a giant power phallus?
People hate TWC?
Where have you seen that?
Fluffbunnies that think the game's serious business hate them.
They're 'not fluffy.'
This is totally true.
Even good players fall victim to this.
My roommate, for example, who is a fantastic painter and gamer (and has won more than one large tournament, and frequently places) and I had a discussion two nights ago about the "worst" armies. His claim? Daemons were"Way better" than Tyranids.
Two hours later, after recreating a better version of his Slaneesh Daemons list with Tyrnaids, and a few other lists so over-the-top (yet still quite "good")that we were both laughing. His mind was changed. But herein lies the problem.
The vast majority of people aren't willing to sit around for 2 hours to figure out that the Tyranid book is, not only not horrible, but phenomenal. Why? That's two hours they're not raiding in WoW, getting laid, or bitching about how badly they got nerfed on (insert forum of choice)
If you only play one, maybe two games a month (~4 hours) and spend little time painting/building armies for whatever reason (you're lazy, like me, or done with your armies) Then perhaps investing a 2-hour block of time to learn isn't really worth your while. But if you're a serious player, who spends a fair volume of their free time playing, you have no excuse.

Quite frankly, if you're one of the casual, ~4hour-a-month types, you don't really have any place telling people what is and isn't good, they're not qualified to make that judgment. It's comparable to asking a four-year old with a plastic stethoscope to diagnose your prostate. You're unlikely to get any useful answers.

On a small digression here, I think that a lot of the perception of "OMG TYRANIDS ARE SOOO BADDDD" is actually GWs thought. Why? Space Wolves came out immediately before Tyranids. Never has there been an (marine) army equipped to kill MC spam quite like wolves (Though some old builds, like Iron Warriors, certainly come close) Between JotWW, 15 Missile Launchers, and 12" charge, fleet, S10 PowerHammers with 3++ saves, Carni-Spam (or equivalent) doesn't stand a chance to make it across the field.

If the codexes had come out in the reverse order, and old bug players got 2/3 months to stomp people around with their big bugs (which probably *still* wouldn't have happened, what with 5th requiring the use of "thought" and "strategy" and all that) I don't think they're be any bitching about how bad Tyranids are... But there would probably be more complaining about space wolves, and I don't know how much more most of us can take, mentally, on that front.
All I hear about is how the Nid codex was good, but then the FAQ completely ruined the army to the point where it's unplayable. Which makes no sense to me. There really didn't seem to be that many serious issues, other than that you can't drop empty spore pods and Hive Commander doesn't stack.
6 replies · active 752 weeks ago
Tyranid Prime despite being an IC can't join other units and pod down is also one of the annoying things.
FAQ basically said From GW: "We hate xenos. Buy MARHEENS." It limited their playability in terms of builds. Ya Hive Commander was expected (although it would of been nice for Tyranids to have something other armies don't [except Eldar]) but the little things like Spores, Primes, SitW, etc. were just punches in the gut.
which is also why i ain't touching the new DE codex with my 10 foot dick until the FAQ is released.
What Kirby and Dezzo said.
See? Someone runs a pyrovore, Ben.
Reserve build was completely FAQ'd over.
Only eldar are allowed to have reliable reserves.

Tyranid independent characters are different from regular independent characters, despite not having any actual rules that say so.
Tyranid psychic defense doesn't affect psykers board vehicles, even if they're one inch away. This means the only actual psychic defense on offer comes from death leaper.
Tyranid reserve abilities don't stack, despite being worded the exact same as autarchs'. Conclusion: eldar have a monopoly on reserve builds.
I personally love the 5th Edition book. I think it takes some actual thought to build a proper list that can go toe-to-toe with some of the current big dogs but it has all the tools to do that. No other codex can put down 36-48 T6 Wounds that have 3+ or 4++(Cover) saves and the ability to gain FnP. But that's not all that's on the table. You can generally pull in 30-60 small bugs as well not counting ones you make in game. People just don't want to adapt and it's sad since it's a great codex. I've been talking it up on my blog of late and it's probably going to turn into my 2011 tournament list.
That out, is time to look outside the template, doing stuff like using Hormagaunts and Warriors as Troops and (gasp) not using Hive Guard.

I mean, is a 5th edition codex. There must be more viable builds. Is time to search them.
Man, it must have taken an hour to remove all the power weapons from this article.
2 replies · active 752 weeks ago
At least I got to keep the power chair =P
Is there a full moon or something? This is two articles in a row I agree with Vt2 on.
1 reply · active 752 weeks ago
Pfft.
You agreed with almost everything said on the marines, too =P
Except Librarian powers, Pedro, Thunderfire Cannon, and Scout Bikers.
2 replies · active 752 weeks ago
So everything important :P.
Not sure that all of those are that important.
GW sticks to it's slow ass release cycle. They publicly justify that this is because of the time it takes to actually make a new army. Yet this implies that as the company has grown in terms of profits, they have chosen not to grow large enough to produce more armies per year. The nature of the hobby is partly to blame for this; people don't want to buy a million new models each year and paint them all. A slow, incremental release schedule means the consumer base stays more constant. Players who buy every new army aren't inundated with new models, and so stick with the hobby.

This makes the actual gameplay suffer, since there are now multiple rulesets (3 'generations', 3E, 4E, 5E) all somehow considered to be part of the same game. As a result, people who love their old 3E and 4E armies are stuck with them until they get an update... which they may not until 6E. In turn, the game gets Jervis'd; they push the mentality that is most likely to make players suffer through what has turned into a very frustrating experience for some.

"I spent $400 on this army three years ago and over 100 hours converting and painting them! Now they're shit? Fuck you, they're awesome, you just don't appreciate them/understand their usefulness."

That's the mental subtext here. All these negative emotions are, to a large extent, because GW hasn't figured out how to fit this business model to an enjoyable experience. I suppose you could 'blame' this on the competitive people pushing the game in that direction, creating tension between GW and casuals that didn't exist before, but I think everyone here feels that competitiveness is the best direction for the game. It really doesn't matter who's "right", in the absolute sense, but rather who GW will end up trying to please more.

So, the question is, will GW ever move towards faster iterations? I don't feel that they will, but that's my totall uneducated opinion.

To summarize:
Competitive players - don't mind changing armies to play what they think will win, because they enjoy winning more than playing a fluffy army
Casual players - hate the idea of competitive 40k because that means their precious old armies are (mostly) crap
Games Workshop - company with an outdated, rigid, blockheaded business model that is unresponsive to the changing interests of it's playerbase; can't figure out or is unwilling to change system in order to move into the future
Casual player blames competitive player for being a douche and implying his precious models are crap. "You're the one ruining this game, not GW's inability to adapt!"
Competitive player blames casual player for being such a whiney douche. "Why won't you drop your army and get with the times? It's your responsibility to adapt to the game. GW sucks at balancing, just accept it and play what works, not what the flavour says should work."
GW is actually a single person. This person maintains a giant multi-media empire 24 hours a day. "Hey guys! Buy my shit! You're upset about something? Can't help you, don't know how, I'm just doing my thing, and why break what works so well? Give me money and screw off, I don't want to hear it. I won't even acknowledge there is a problem, since that would validate my culpability in the matter."

Maybe not the ideal post to comment this into, but that's how things seem. ;)
4 replies · active 752 weeks ago
I don't think GW will speed up its army release; I feel it's good as is. Model release is another kettle of fish but *shrug.* When you compare to PPs and other companies who run TT games, they don't have nearly as much content as GW. They have 10+ armies over two major gaming systems and are pretty much trying to figure out how to make competitive rules on the fly. People like Matt Ward and Phil Kelly are a great help but they may not have a good business model of what minis will sell in terms of a competitive 40k environment. And we know GW is very insular and doesn't like to learn.
AKA pyrovores...

Sadly as a 'nid player and someone who frequents The Tyranid Hive I have to say this article was bang on...
Link them to it, and the following ones.
It used to be that we only got things they could produce within 3 months of the codex release.
KIlled creativity of the designers so hard.

I'm not gonna claim that what we have now is optimal, but I'd rather have rules for things I can make, than no rules, and nothing to make.
It's very, very annoying when they don't make the basic stuff (boneswords, plastic parts for sternguard, thunderwolves in plastic boxes), though. They've been in the business for over 30 years, and should know better by now.
As a Tyranid player, who has won all his games, I found your article quite amusing. I think Tyranids have a very average codex and a bad FAQ. I am quite happy with change. Nidzilla got a nice boost with the choice of thre monsters for your Heavy Support and your Elite Barbie-fex lost its power weapon and became Hive Guard.

I find your slating of the Dark Angel Codex and Jervis funny as well. I am not a 40k historian (if such a think exists) but from what I recall the Dark Angels book was the template for all the more recent marine books. DA's suck because there units cost more points than Ultramarine units and they no longer have anything special since other books can now do scoring bikes/terminators.
I gotta admit I kind of got stuck in a rut with the Hive Guard. Honestly, they're frakking solid units, and they can kill light mech without much thought.

Honestly, it's a damned good book. Not uber, not broken, but you've got options. You've got solid MCs (even the carnifex, but carni-spam days are over. 2 max for me, thanks). We've got guns (and I've got some respect for the power of the devourer-wielding termagant. 30 S4 shots from a 100pt unit at 18" is pretty nice) for hunting personnel and for hunting transports.

I won't lie; the FAQ did kind of annoy me. Some of the stuff, we just didn't NEED clarified. Hive Commander I expected, but the drop pod ruling was a heap of punch-in-the-face.

I will agree that the pups are a hell of a matchup for 'nids, with the ability to bring plenty of missile launchers and t-wolf cav.
Huh, I guess I fall into the new 'Nid player category then. I played the old 'dex just before the current one and found it quite boring. And I promise I will punch the next 'Nid player who wines about them. Seriously, it's that frustrating.
1 reply · active 752 weeks ago
I've got that same problem with marine players whining over how the only two ways to play marines are mister Kantor or Vulkan.
I just want 1 thing back, flesh hooks :(

Otherwise I'm doing okay with the new codex. It's taken me a while to find a build I like, but I think I'm very close now.

I just cry a little inside when I have to assault into terrain...
I for one do not like the codex. Everyone wandering over here from The Tyranid Hive probably knows that. I find that it is for two reasons.

The first is the loss of mutable stat lines and weapons. Yes, they had to go, I understand that. They did make the game much more difficult for our opponents and it was really easy to cheat with them. But still, going from the most customizable army in the game to one with just a few options is a bitter pill to swallow. We did get some "new" units to make up for the loss of customization. Though these units are really new, they're just watered down Apocalypse units. Personally I don't think adding Apocalypse units into a codex is the best way to make it work. That's just me though, you may like using them.

The second thing that I don't like is that during the codex's development GW seems to have gathered every piece of tyranid fluff and shredded it. Then after they were done shredding it they burnt it and pissed on the ashes. All the older codices have stories about how horrible tyranid invasions are. Usually their told by that front line trooper who spots the first carnifex as he runs out of rounds shooting at gaunts. And even in the stories where the tyranids lost they did a pretty good job of illustrating how much effort it took to stop a tyranid invasion. In the 5th ed codex every piece of fluff goes like this: Tyranid arrive, everyone fights, tyranids get their ass kicked. If reading how your army can't win doesn't motivate you then I don't know what will. o.0

All that being said, rules wise this codes isn't bad. You can do horrible things to your opponent with this codex. And if something can change the meta-game away from mech heavy armies this codex could become something people fear.
4 replies · active 751 weeks ago
I have not bothered to read the fluff this edition so can not comment on that but I do agree on the mutable genus. Tyranids did have too many abusable options however they went from being the most fun codex to being dull. Even Marines get stat increases (Relic Blade, Terminator Armour, Bike, Wolf Mount, ect) but now Tyranids have almost nothing.

Overall it is a more competitive codex it just has a lot of small annoying problems. Coupled with a FAQ that says do not play Primes or Air Assault builds and I can see why most players do not like it. For example why only Carnifex gets Frag Spines not the rest of the Monsters? Why no Toxic sacs on Raveners when everything else gets them?
Poison and furious charge on almost every single unit is 'boring?'
My regular grunts don't even have upgrades. I can fit two 'special' things in, and that's assuming I want 10 guys to begin with.
Two things.
The old book was horrible, could not win against anyone in a fair ffight, and mutable everything was a horribly, horribly unwise decision in the first place.
The book as it is now comes with all the other stat-changes everybody took as standard. Your units have a lot of options still, and they're for the most part very good. Compare gants to a tactical squad.

I can have one heavy and one special, but only if I take ten dudes? Great.
You can have different guns on everybody, and the squad can have furious charge and poisoned attacks.
Regarding fluff:
The Tyranids _have_ to lose eventually, otherwise the Imperium ceases to exist. All the "bad guy" codices have this, and it's just the way the writing has to happen. I didn't get the perception that it was "fight, fight, lose" quite so much, as there are plenty of sections where it describes the Tyranids overrunning sector after sector before finally being stymied.

Units still have customization now, and I honestly think it's more relevant than things were before. The difference between S4 and S5 Genestealers was not really important- one of them was better, but it didn't really change them much. The difference between Toxin Genestealers and not is a lot bigger- you're basically boosting your Rending hits by 50%, so they're much more reliable. Likewise, Bonesword Warriors are very different from vanilla ones, and Devilgaunts are nothing like standard-kit Termagants. While it was true you could do some things in the old book you can't now, the overall flexibility is greatly increased.
wow that pretty much sums up what i wanted on the hive and more, i totaly agree.
i came in late 4th ed and started playing in january this year. when the new dex came out i had no objections to anything in the book because i didn't have any idea about the previous army that i had playe.(pluss i didn't have any lictors)
and thats just what tyranids 5th ed is, its a compleatly new codex. and not just any codex, an awesome one.
Well i still whine over the bad thing about the codex.
cool and uniuqe biomorphs and rules that were balanced are now gone or replaced whit generic ones.
lots of new units that are much worse than other units so most list looks the same just like in 4th edition where every one had 4-6 fexes. now everyone have 4-9 hive guard and 2-4 tervigons yeah big diffirence.

The codex isn't bad and i don't care if my Nids are the worse race or the best as long as they are Nids and nothing else but sadly this isn't the case and that i shy i whine about the codex and that i miss the 4th one.
1 reply · active 751 weeks ago
I could whine about all the following: auspex, multi-wound techmarines, BS4 servitors, purity seals, master-crafted weapons, servo-arms, signums, combi-grenade launchers, fightin' veterans for cheap, scouts with autocannons, artificer armor for 1-wound models, terminator command squads, machine spirit rhinos, tyranid hunters...

All of that was either never used, rarely used, or made no sense.
Most of it remains, but in new forms - like with tyranids.

I don't need terminator command squads, because combat squads let me split 10 men into 2x5. You don't need tail weapons, because your canis have more attacks base. I could go on.
LOL. Funny article.
Most hilarious part - the fact that you don't mention the FAQ screwing nids over big time.
1 reply · active 751 weeks ago
Only specific builds (i.e. reserve Nids). Outside of the SitW there isn't too much that affects a foot slogging list which just means the Tyranid book feels more two dimensional. Go look at Puppy's articles to see how they aren't.
TheGraveMind's avatar

TheGraveMind · 751 weeks ago

I understand that the complaining is getting annoying. I understand, but I've also done my share of complaining. Honestly, I'm almost getting more annoyed with people complaining about the complaining. Yes, the codex isn't horrible, but it really isn't that amazing. Anyone who says other wise really needs to face some serious opponents, and then teach me. In 4th edition I ran 2-3 carnifexes only, and I gave the best players locally a good run, now the only wins are against baby seals.
You want to know why tyranid players keep complaining over the years? Cause they keep effing up are style. Marines have played like marines for the most part. Last edition we played like necrons, this edition we're footdar, god knows what we'll be next. You have to be competent at playing almost all armies if you want to play nids over the ages. It's not that genestealers aren't as good as they used to be, its that each change, units that were good become horrible. Each change we have to completly change playing styles, rebuy almost our entire army. Lets make it fair, Next edition, Space marine's Rhino costs 100pts and tacticals only have pistols. See how much complaining you get from SM. Tyranid players from 4th edition not only have now have carnifexes laying around, and either have to mutilate their gaunts changing spine fists to fleshborers or buy all new gaunts if they can't salvage them. Not to mention buy brand new hive guard, trygons and what ever else.
Some of the codex is simply shit. Hormagaunts dropped in Ws, but now you attack at higher Init so you can kill things before they attack. Really? cause it feels like I'm attack at Init 1 cause of cover, which any competent player would keep his soft targets at. Oh that is right, you took flesh hooks away, even from our initiative 6 dependent genestealers who can't even survive bolters. And thank you for making lictors even worse than before, that took some serious work, and the trygon tunnel, since those are perfect additions to reserves since they don't even work half of the time. And i'm glad for pyrovores and Doom. Those two are sure signs of play testing.
You want to know what the icing on the cake is for me? Raveners have acute senses, cause that has helped me in all of fucking 0 games. They are not troops and so can't deploy during dawn of war, they have 6" movement with max range of 18" so they can't even have range during night fight turn one. That is if you even bothered paying for guns on a close combat specialist unit. "Scout" would have made an excellent choice on them, allowing them to outflank, or move up early. Tyranid version of Baal.
I've played tyranids for 5 years, I haven't fully given up on them, but I was really looking for a good chance of playing more competitively when I wanted, and I'm honestly not finding that in tyranids. Please if someone does know, link me to some tourneys that tyranids placed first in, cause I know of none. IG, SM, SW and even BA I'm pretty sure have all had their turns up on the top place, but I have yet to see tyranid players up there. If these working lists that can compete are in here, that people just need to look for, this long after the release, then I don't know. I would have thought someone would have found something, shared the knowledge, or something by now.

I started tyranids because I wanted a fast moving assault specialized army. Now we're even slower since they took away move through cover, and even more shooty. It is not as bad as some people seem, but the book isn't all flowers like others make it seem. I know you like to think your shit don't stink....but lean a little bit closer this codex really smells like uh uh uh.
As an outsider looking in on the codex it is not terrible but it is not great either. A lot of internal balance issues with rules that look great but are pretty useless when you break them down like the the big MC's tunnel ability and some units that are head scratchers like that flame thrower thing and the special carnifex that costs as much as Mephiston but stinks on the table top. With tyranids you seem to get the "They suck!" or "They are the bestest ever!" responses with not much between. I think both sides are wrong. Tyranids are not nearly as bad as a lot of players make them out to be but on the flip side they just don't compare well to IG and SW which happen to be two of the most popular armies right now. Tyranids have turned into an army that can compete and even thrive with a good general compared to their 4th edition counterparts but they are not very user friendly at first from what I have seen and they are a lot less forgiving of mistakes on the table top. Add into it the mech spam that is prevalent now and Tyranids are bit tougher to use than some people expected.

I will say though that an army like this makes you a better player in the long run instead of playing some of the new brainless point and click armies I mentioned earlier.
1 reply · active 750 weeks ago
What's a point and click army? I'd love to not have to think to play this game. If you're using a good army it's not point and click. It may look point and click but it's not and if you don't use your brain to actually field the list, you'll lose when you come against a competent general irregardless of list.

I don't see any "They are the bestest ever!" here. Posts like this and by myself and Puppy have pointed out how people complain about internal balance issues but there are only a handful of units which aren't worth using. Rippers, Proyvores, etc. (don't bother including special characters as generally only 50% of them are worth using for every codex). That's not internal balance issues. Everyone is stuck up on Hive Guard being no-brainer choices when they aren't. If you take Hive Guard you build your list in a certain way. Venomthropes, Zoans, Lictors, Deathleaper are all good and usable units in Elites and if you don't take Hive Guard you still have anti-tank elsewhere which people don't seem to get.

Internal balance issues is Tau when if you don't take Broadsides and Crisis suits, it's a crap list. Internal balance issues is Eldar when if you don't take Fire Dragons, it's a crap list. Internal balance issues is Witchunters when you take anything not in power armor outside of IST and don't mech up, it's a crap list. See the difference?
There are SW and IG builds that are point and click, they are not auto pilot but you don't have to be Sun Tzu to be succesful with them either. Yes a terrible general with those armies can still lose to a great general but all things being equal they have some very powerful builds that take very little strategy or forethought to win with consistantly.

I have not read any of the other articles yet but I didn't see anything in this one pointing out that the tyranids do have issues. They still have a solid 5th edition army but this article came off as cheerleading to me but maybe that was not how you were trying to come across. While I don't see how tyranid players can claim the codex sucks there can be some legitimate complaints made about the codex even though power level is not really one of them.
3 replies · active 750 weeks ago
I was too long winded so I had to break things into two posts...
The balance issues to me jumped off the page when I first had a chance to look at a friends codex. You can use the other choices but there is a fairly wide gulf from what I remember with units like Hive Guard for instance vs going with the flying MC for instance as anti-tank or Tervigons vs Warriors as troops etc. The other units you lister are fine although the lictor seems a bit lackluster from what I remember. They can be used and you can win with them but you are not fielding your most powerful builds with them either.
You just listed a bunch of codices that are 4th edition or older so of course they are going to be out of wack in 5th just like the 4th edition tyranid codex was. I think some legitimate gripes can be made about the nid dex especially with some of the odd rules like the lictors trail thing and the big MC's tunnel and how the FAQ handles some things like the anti psycher shadow deal and transports. They are not crippling problems by any means like some tyranid players like to make them out to be but from what I remember the nid codex does not seem as polished for instance as the new DE dex or the SW dex before it.
That was the point of using older books. They have internal balance issues, Tyranids do not. I also didn't write the article.

The FAQ was a bollocks fest and yes, rules like subterranean assault and pheromone trail are meh; doesn't make the codex meh or the internal balance meh. GW basically said "we don't want Tyranids reserving unless you take a Swarmlord and Hive Tyrant" even though a 3+ on T2 is still decent. That doesn't make the codex have balance issues or be less effective compared to other 5th books; when you can effectively take 2-3+ units from each FoC slot and utilise them in armies, you don't have internal balance issues. No book has a perfect set of units (DE being the closest) or rules. GW has certainly improved their books compared to before but they aren't perfect yet.
Like I said I don't think nid players have a bad codex, I would have to question whether someone even read the codex if they said it is bad. As a vanilla SM player I can acknowledge that they do have some legitimate gripes about their dex but it is nothing that keeps them from being competative. I think the FAQ more than anything fired some of them up with the odd rulings. :^) Just from a tourney perspective I think nids struggle a little but I think that has more to do with the prevalence of the mech meta more than glaring issues with the nid codex.
TheGraveMind's avatar

TheGraveMind · 750 weeks ago

I think the new book does have internal balance issues, but they are minor enough that they don't cause trouble. It is mostly poor point costing. What really gets my goat is the abundance of poor rules and poor writing. pheromone trail is fail, pyrovores so situational they are complete metagaming to the highest of caliber. Acute senses on raveners piss me off to no end. DoM in general. I'll not bore you with the list. Tyranids had been my first, my only, army for the past four years.
I'm not saying they have a bad codex. It is a 5th edition one that we needed and fixed many of the weaknesses that we needed. But what I'm not seeing is people acknowledging the fact that it is the weakest of the new books. In the last codex, I developed some real strategy cause I had to face the new mech lists that were coming out. Even though I lost a good amount, it was my nids and I was having fun. That is the key, even with the old book I had fun. What I didn't have was a competitive chance as I learned the game and developed into a good gamer. I was looking for that opportunity with the new book to be able to actually compete. They failed to provide that.
The older players, partly myself included, are upset cause the play style has changed drastically, and so many of the models are not to par and require new purchases. New players are feeling the pain because the nids don't have any entry level gaming. They are not forgiving and it takes a lot of effort to do well, even with this new codex.
Most of the problems are not that big, but its the amount of them that upsets me. This is a new book, but it is worse off than many old books in terms of unused units and poor rules. I'll say it, it is a bad book. Not for being unplayable, or under-competitive (though it is slightly), but because it is bad in the sense that it didn't give us what it should have as a new codex.

It is simply disappointing to see this dip in power in between other books. Wolves are great, DE are great. Blood angels are well balanced. These came before and after Nids, but the bugs just don't hold weight to these other books. It is still far above most 4th books, but it is at the bottom of the line for 5th ed. With some good changes to mech in 6th edition rules, I can see Nids doing amazing well. That is what is keeping me from getting rid of mine completely.

Post a new comment

Comments by

Follow us on Facebook!

Related Posts Plugin for WordPress, Blogger...