There is a rumor floating around the internets, or perhaps a meme, a thought pattern, an assumption, and it goes something like this: "Tyranids only have one viable build; they're the weakest 5th Edition codex." It grows out of the "standard" Tyranid list: Hive Guard, Tervigons, Trygons/Tyrannofexes, and also from the debacle of the FAQ and perceived sleights that GW has laid at the feet of xenos players. And, of course, it comes from the fact that the internet is constantly obsessed with the Latest and Greatest- when SW came out they totally obviated SM, BA did the same to SW, etc.
My friends, this mindset, this way of thinking, this "truth" is nothing but a myth. It's a lie handed down and reinforced and repeated until it becomes true by default. Tyranids are not the weakest 5E codex. You can build armies that don't fit the generic pattern, and you can do well with them.
Tyranids aren't the only army that suffers from this syndrome, but they feel it the worst. If you're playing Imperial Guard, the assumption is that you need to mech up or be bad; if Marines don't run TH/SS, they aren't hitting their full potential; etc, etc, etc. The truth is, every army has its "auto-include" units, from Long Fangs to Librarians, but NONE of them are genuinely required to build an army. They are useful tools, often ones that do something that fills a major gap in the army's strategy or does something so useful there is virtually never a time that you don't need it.
But let's not beat around the bush- with Tyranids, we're really talking about two units, Hive Guard and Tervigons. Hive Guard are awesome because they fill an important role (anti-tank) very, very well for their price and are extremely survivable to boot. Tervigons offer Synapse in a non-HQ slot, support the army with psychic powers, and can sometimes churn out troops in ridiculous quantities. (Sometimes. Other times they poop themselves out on the first go.) But neither of these are necessary to building a successful army. Tyranid Warriors fill many of the same functions as Tervigons (resilient scoring unit, synapse) and, for the Tervigon's price, you can get a LOT of them. Tervigons have a 3+ save, you say? Well, my friend, thanks to a little rule called Going to Ground Warriors can as well. You become a little more vulnerable to small-arms fire but in return you become hilariously resilient to Las/Missile/Melta shooting and much stronger in CC to boot. If you really want to see something hilarious, try swapping your Tervigons for units of Termagants sometime- I think you'll find that you can bring a LOT more of them than you will produce on all but the luckiest of spawning rolls over the course of a game.
As for anti-tank, there are a number of options that come up, depending on the list you run. In smaller games Fexstars (Carnifex + Tyranid Prime, both with Regen) can keep transports suppressed or immobilized, as can Dakka Tyrants, and Tyrannofexes, Harpies, Zoanthropes, and Lictors all have their respective places in armies. Yes, even Lictors. Warriors can also offer some limited suppression fire when armed with Deathspitters+Venom Cannon and Mycetic Spores can likewise bring a certain degree if it comes down to it. So why would you take them over Hive Guard? Let's see...
DakkaFex/Tyrant: Much stronger in combat, pushes the army towards more of an assault focus without being reliant on assaults to kill vehicles (which is bad.)
Tyrannofex: Far, far more survivable against most guns. Much stronger in CC. Provides cover for other MCs. Much better against hordes, with a T6/2+ and shooting up to three guns before charging. Range advantage is good against standoff armies and when coming in from reserve.
Harpies: Extremely fast, only somewhat less survivable, can crack even AV13/14 with its melee, strong anti-infantry blast weapons. Can deep strike and has excellent reach with its guns.
Zoanthropes: Ideal for a deep strike army. Provides Synapse, which DS armies can be short on. AP1 means high chance of kills when it gets a hit in. Alternate fire mode is great against MEQs once transports are eliminated, 3++ can frustrate players by making them waste shots better sent elsewhere. Solves high-AV problems consistently without the need to melee them.
Lictors: Stop laughing. STOP IT, I SAID. They can arrive anywhere on the field and get 2-6 S6 shots when they show up. High S, WS, I, and A mean that not a lot of units actually want to charge them and they can make short work of most any vehicle in CC. They are very resilient (crunch the numbers on how many Bolters it takes to kill a W3/3+ guy) and can guide in the rest of your army if you end up with poor reserve rolls in the early turns. Their large bases and ability to arrive anywhere also make it easy to "box in" your Mycetic Spores, forcing them to arrive where you want.
All of these are not merely acceptable options but even strong ones in the right army; why the prevalence of Hive Guard in my own lists, then? Because they're the easiest solution, to be honest. They are very good at what they do, and what they do is something that most lists are lacking in. They're very simple to use and don't require a complex type of list to be effective- simply slapping 4-9 Hive Guard into virtually any list will largely mitigate its anti-tank weaknesses, which is something that isn't possible with most of the other units I mentioned. Just as nearly every BA list (bar Razorspam) will end up wanting to have some Sanguinary Priests (or at least Honor Guard), Hive Guard are the crux of the Tyranid codex.
The Tyranid codex, even despite the sucker punch it took from the FAQ, is very strong. It has very few weak options and can be used to create a variety of unique builds. Are all of these builds as easy to use as the bog-standard one? No. Are they more reliant on careful play and synergy of the build, and hence less able to be adjusted to add in "favorite" units that don't mesh with the rest of the army? Certainly. Are they weaker? Not at all.
1750
1 Hive Tyrant (Wings, 2 Devourer, Hive Commander)
3 Zoanthrope (Spore, Venom Cannon)
2 Lictors
2 Lictors
20 Termagants (Devourers, Spore, Venom Cannon)
20 Termagants (Devourers, Spore, Venom Cannon)
3 Tyranid Warriors (Venom Cannon, Spore)
3 Tyranid Warriors (Venom Cannon, Spore)
1 Harpy (Heavy Venom Cannon)
Who says reserves are dead? While it's unfortunate that Hive Commander doesn't stack, we can get by with other options. Masses of suppression fire from all sources mean that we can keep most vehicles shut down pretty effectively and the Lictors, Tyrant, and Harpy will make short work of anything that gets immobilized. Devilgaunts should come in together and wipe out whatever units start on foot or get dismounted. Warriors are your objective-claimers and fill Synapse holes where needed. An alternate version could bring a Tervigon in place of the Harpy or possibly a Termagant squad, using Hive Commander to outflank it into an annoying position for the enemy. (Remember, it's a troop thanks to your Devilgaunts.)
1 Hive Tyrant (2 Devourers, Old Adversary, Regen)
1 Hive Tyrant (2 Devourers, Old Adversary, Regen)
1 Tyrant Guard (Lash Whips)
1 Tyrant Guard (Lash Whips)
2 Venomthropes
2 Venomthropes
17 Termagants
1 Tervigon (Catalyst, Regen, Toxin, Adrenal)
1 Harpy (Heavy Venom Cannon, Regen)
1 Harpy (Heavy Venom Cannon, Regen)
1 Trygon (Regen)
Kinda light on anti-tank here, but you have lots of big, regenerating monsters and when they get there, they are going to cause some ridiculous damage. The various MCs can "leapfrog" each other to ensure that the weakest unit is always getting 4+ cover; otherwise, get in as quick as you can and bust some faces. Go to ground with your Termagants and Venomthropes basically whenever; you have very few of the former and the latter are only necessary for turns 1-2 or so. You really don't have much of a backup plan besides "kill them all," so if you can slip one small squad of troops onto an objective and wipe all their scoring units out, that's not the worst thing in the world. Don't forget that your Venomthropes also give you defensive grenades and can force Dangerous Terrain (=strike at I1 unless they have grenades of their own) tests on enemies who charge your cluster.
These are just some example builds- there are plenty of other ways to make Tyranids work. You don't have to do like I did for the above and go out of your way to avoid using any but the most minimal amounts of Tervi/HG in your list, but neither should you feel stupid for not putting them in there- remember, every unit, no matter how good it is, has weaknesses, and there will be armies that are justified in not including them.
Kirby 118p · 753 weeks ago
Good post Puppy. The whole bashing of 'net-lists' and disparaging of every list relying upon a couple of units in the latest releases is...well odd. It's like forums want you to take unique lists with different units and then say the whole codex fails unless you use A, B & C.
What happened to rational discourse...
Archnomad · 753 weeks ago
I've yet to see drop nids played well, so I can't comment there.
When I played nids I would always run 2 tervs and 2 tyrannos, as well as at least 6 hive guard. It led to a fantastic amount of dakka, while the gaunts would go on infantry mop up. I do like nids, I'm just really worried for them with the new DE. It's not the 4+ poison i'm worried about (3+ FnP doesn't care) it's the 25 lances they'll be bringing. It's gonna sting.
MC Tic Tac · 753 weeks ago
I swear most nid players have never heard of the Tyrannofex (T-Fex) or Venomthropes
Archnomad · 753 weeks ago
VT2 79p · 753 weeks ago
abusepuppy 121p · 753 weeks ago
(The army I posted is untested and another 1-2 Vthropes might be needed, but the basic concept is fine, I think.)
MagicJuggler · 753 weeks ago
I am a fan of the Dakkafex/Tyrant pair so far. It's rather handy against AV 10/11, while also being useful to snipe models out of units.
MC Tic Tac · 753 weeks ago
CalPerr · 753 weeks ago
sorry, I had to . . .
Marshal_Wilhelm 61p · 753 weeks ago
You need X% for AT, Y% for AI, etc. what other units could get that to happen?
For example:
I would like to see people running AutoLas Preds and Typhoon Speeders over Fangs, sometimes, as I think less MEq on the board from T1 could offset having less dakka.
VT2 79p · 753 weeks ago
VT2 79p · 753 weeks ago
Biggest thing about tyranids: good troops.
Hulksmash · 753 weeks ago
I think that if people really get out and play they'll see that Nids can compete! I've got a series on my blog, but I won't post a link unless I get approval here since it's rude to just do that on other blogs :) , but it's covering my opinion start to finish on how and why Nids are competitive in 5th and the way we need to view the Nid book.
Kirby 118p · 753 weeks ago
hulksmash · 753 weeks ago
My Blog is: http://hulksmash-homeplace.blogspot.com/
It's got a few DE lists up, a pretty good set of Tyranid articles if I do say so myself and some more assorted army lists and army building tips.
Kirby 118p · 753 weeks ago
@KatieDrake · 753 weeks ago
hulksmash · 753 weeks ago
Carnifexes for me are generally only useful in 2 ways. The first is with a walking tyrant with old adversary and then give them crushing claws and devourers to make them just absolute killers as long as the Hive Tyrant is alive. The other way is 2 naked Carnifexes w/2 attached Primes. This gives the unit a 4+ cover save even if their just behind the Gants and gets you a unit that can give cover to Tervigons. It's also a hell of a hammer unit but requires you to funnel the enemy into them with other fast elements.
As for the Parasite I put him in a unit of 20-30 FC/Poison Gargoyles and normally have a Flyrant w/Old Adversay running nearby. It's a gross unit and generally hits like a hammer. The Parasite will generally generate a single d6 of rippers but since your already in the back field you can deploy them to go after another support unit to tie it up until the hammer can fall on them. It's worked really well so far with the Rippers actually being major factors in winning some of my games.
Hope that helps :)
Kirby 118p · 753 weeks ago
abusepuppy 121p · 753 weeks ago
Carnifexes have a few uses; first, at lower point totals (1500 and below) they can be run as a "Fex-star," by combining with a Tyranid Prime. Both of them get Regen, and the Prime takes Sword/Whip and Toxin, with the 'Fex taking Devourers. The unit puts out pretty dangerous infantry-killing firepower (~10 wounds/turn against T4) and can threaten most units reasonably well in melee. The Prime slows everything else down to the 'Fex's speed so you're less likely to die without striking and the 'Fex can ID dangerous characters and such. The second way is as a faux-Tyrannofex for lists that are extremely short on points- Heavy Venom Cannons, while not particularly amazing, are still an AT gun and can perform acceptably well alongside BWL Devourers to shut down transports. (You take the HVC over the second Dev because you want range and the ability to kill things.) This one is pretty narrow, though, and I can't say I'd generally recommend it. The third way is in extremely large games (over 2K) when you're filling out your force orgs and you want to get more T6/3+ bodies on the table.
The Parasite I've played around with but he's rather mediocre no matter what you do. His combat stats are too random to really rely on him, but when escorted by a flock of Gargoyles he does make a reasonable "flying Prime" to insure they stay under control. Against the right armies his ability to generate Rippers is actually quite useful, but most of the time it amounts to very little.
I'll be doing articles on both of them as the new series I'm working on progresses, so stay tuned.
artemi7 78p · 753 weeks ago
Anyway, if anyone is interested, here's the list I've been considering.
1747
1 Hive Tyrant (Devourer, Bone Sword/Whip, Hive Commander)
2 Tyrant Guard (Bone Sword)
Deathleaper
3 Zoanthrope (Spore, Venom Cannon)
20 Termagants (Devourers)
20 Termagants (Devourers, Spore, Venom Cannon)
16 Gargoyles (Toxin)
1 Harpy (Heavy Venom Cannon)
1 T-fex (Rupture Cannon, obviously)
abusepuppy 121p · 753 weeks ago
-Swap the BS/LW for a second set of Devourers on the Tyrant. They're really good guns and you won't always want to use a psychic power.
-Boneswords on the Guard are probably unnecessary. Lash Whips can be nice, as you can't always fit them on the Tyrant, but the unit should have plenty of killy already.
-Either go with a drop list or don't; running it halfway won't help. Wings on the Tyrant and Spore for the second squad of Gants would be enough, but you don't want them stuck on foot. (I realize you can Outflank the Gants, but it's too unreliable for my tastes. 1/3 chance of being useless is not good.)
-Either run the Gargoyles with both Toxin and Adrenal or don't take either. Point for point, just putting Toxin on them does nothing to increase your kill output. I also feel that the squad is a little small, but that may be unavoidable.
Other than that the list looks pretty good. A Tervigon would be a nice choice to outflank with if you're looking for something to swap, and the Venom Cannons on the Spores would be my first inclination if you were looking to cut points (in smaller number they aren't as useful), but all things considered you have a pretty nice force there.
nfluger 60p · 753 weeks ago
I gotta say, glad someone else is giving love to Lictors. My 9 lictor list was going a bit over the deep end, but I haven't even had a close game with them yet. They absolutely wreck armor in combat and anything but the most determined assault units.
Just for comparison, here is the list I'm mentioning. It took down a hybrid guard list and a mech IG list and two MSU mech BA lists. It needs more practice to work all the kinks out of it, but it has performed very well.
Swarmlord: 280
2 Tyrant Guard: 130
Lash Whips
3 Lictors: 195
3 Lictors: 195
3 Lictors: 195
30 Hormagaunts: 240
Toxin Sacs
Tervigon: 185
Catalyst, Toxin Sacs
10 Termagants: 50
10 Termagants: 50
18 Gargoyles: 126
Adrenal Glands
18 Gargoyles: 126
Adrenal Glands
Trygon Prime: 240
2000
abusepuppy 121p · 753 weeks ago
Why no Toxin on the Gargoyles? If it's points, I would just run one naked (as a screen) and the second with Toxin + Adrenal, for maximum value. I realize AG allow you to glance vehicles and strike before MEQs, but I really think that either running naked or fully suited are the two best ways to go.
Only having three sources of Synapse does seem a bit risky. Is that also an issue for you, or has it worked out well enough since one is DSable and the other two are 18"-capable?
I also might personally run two sets of Lictors and a Deathleaper, the better to work in teams and whatnot, but that's not something I've tested at all.
Regular Tyrant would seem better than Swarmlord here, since Swarmy doesn't let you outflank the Hormagaunts. I guess you could just run them behind the Gargoyle screens, but it makes me wonder...
In any case it's a very neat list. I think it could do with some tweaking, but it certainly takes good advantage of the Lictor's strengths. Also, S7 Lictors charging stationary vehicles is pretty hilarious.
nfluger 60p · 753 weeks ago
Toxin on Gargoyles I find not as important as adrenal glands because they have their inbuilt poison that wounds when you roll to hit. Having both units have a chance to glance vehicles, and the speed to get there on turn two is a nice threat.
Synapse has been the biggest problem so far. Not sure on a solution other than finding points for another Tervigon... Fortunately, most of the stuff outside of synapse doesn't need it to do their job well.
nfluger 60p · 753 weeks ago
Swarmlord is a must IMO. Being able to grant preferred enemy to a unit 18" away (like the gargoyles, who get more chances to auto-wound with their poison) is invaluable, as is having 18" synapse. Not to mention he is super lethal in close combat to almost anything in the game.
Yeah, its not set by any means, but after the few games I've put it through, its working really well. S7 Lictors ARE hilarious.
davethegamer · 753 weeks ago
Can I get an explanation for how you get S7 lictors? is there a synergy I am missing?
thanks!
hulksmash · 752 weeks ago
RotatingPanda · 752 weeks ago
Tyranid Prime w/toxin sacs, bone swords, lash whip and rending claws
6 warriors w/toxin sacs, bone swords, lash whip and rending claws
2 Hive Guard
2 Hive Guard
12 stealers w/toxin sacs
12 stealers w/toxin sacs
Trygon Prime
This list has done me damn well and reminds me that no matter how much people trash the new 'nids, no matter how things I think are wrong with the book, you -can- win with it. It's not the army, but the player, right?