Kirb your enthusiasm!

WEBSITE HOSTED AT: www.3plusplus.net

"Pink isn't a color. It's a lifestyle." - Chumbalaya
"...generalship should be informing list building." - Sir Biscuit
"I buy models with my excess money" - Valkyrie whilst a waitress leans over him


Wednesday, October 13, 2010

Standardisation in Tournaments: Why it's necessary


This is a follow-up to the recent Conquest Toronto review and focuses primarly on objective missions but applies to all aspects of tournaments. It's really simple: the less random everything in a tournament is outside of the players' actual armies, the better. This means set number of objectives, set objective size, missions without random factors (unless they are included in the rulebook, i.e. reserves), etc. One of the major issues for Conquest's missions were random factors such as searching in terrain for artifacts. It's great for narration but has nothing to do with player skill. Why not roll a bunch of dice and see who get's a 6 first? Okay, you get an extra 6 battle points. Obviously the missions are mildly more complex than this but they will favor some armies over others and are inherently random. Here's the kicker to most random factors in tournaments and tournament missions: they do not seperate general skill level.

Remember, most tournaments which strive to actually produce valid results (i.e. NOVA, Centurion) are attempting to pit the best players against the best players in a dog eat dog world where only the doggiest of them all wins (and there is no weighting of scores based on comp, etc.). It is very unlikely in these type of W/L systems that the overall winner will not have played at least one if not more good players. To win these types of tournaments it is therefore very likely you are going to actually have to beat good players. No draws, no battle-point victories, beat. If the missions these sorts of tournaments used were based on random factors like digging up artifacts or a random number of objectives which could benefit one side of the table, etc., the results are not valid because game alterting factors were not in the player's control. If Player A has 3 objectives on their side and Player B has 2 objectives on their side and Player A wins, Player B was at a disadvantage based on something out of their control but within control of the tournament organiser.

What a tournament and tournament missions aim to do (assuming they are persuing valid results) is create missions which are completely and utterly balanced where it is the difference in general skill level which decides the outcome of the game. This is why the 5x5 system with 5 objectives, 1 per quarter and 1 in the middle (which are all the same size, not the some 25mm and some 40mm crap) works. Whilst it adds a tactical complexity in being able to appropriately identify and pick what your opponent's KPs should be, no matter where each army deploys (unless you screw it up) there will be an equal number of objectives within range for each army. Same with table quarters and limiting KP to 5. Rather than random mission rules like night fight ending on a 4+, objectives deep-striking or random number of objectives and allowing player placement (I do enjoy this aspect but it does lead to lopsided tables on occasion which for a tournament is bad), needing to search for artifacts, protect/kill HQs, etc. is different from game to game and army to army. This. Is. Bad.

Again, if a tournament wants valid results the winner needs to be determined on differences of general skill level as much as possible. Sure this means Player A with skill level 100 can lose to Player B with skill level 90 and thus not be able to win the tournament but Player B and A know it was based on player skill (or dice rolls) rather than the missions which produced this result. If a tournament is aiming for valid results, this is a must. By providing every single gamer with the exact same mission parameters (and providing the information well before hand) which are not going to change based on dice rolls, the end results are as much based on general skill as possible (assuming equal list strength which if running competitive lists should be true).

So what does this mean for aspiring TO's? Well Mike from Whiskey & 40k has already done a bang-up job in doing most of the development for this type of format and missions like those used at NOVA and being play-tested for Centurion emphasis this. I know what mission parameters are being played by everyone at the tournament at any given time and I know this well before the tournament even begins. This is why I jumped up and down on fester to change the final mission being randomly rolled for. A tournament wants all randomness to be based on initial pairings (and if there was a reliable way to rank players, this should disappear, too) and then be based completely on general skill level and dice rolls. This means other people can point to the tournament and go these armies/players are good/bad because everyone was dealing with the same parameters. It will take a large amount of tournaments like this to determine who's good and bad and what armies are good and bad (sample size issues) but for this to even be possible, standardisation needs to occur within a tournament. If a tournament is not aiming for that, then who cares. Go for narration and random missions, etc. But overall, the less random a tournament the better in terms of valid results and determining who the best generals are.

Comments (15)

Loading... Logging you in...
  • Logged in as
I think you're missing a few key points against the "new" system. Random # of objectives comes directly from the rulebook missions. So does taking turns placing objectives. In theory, the game is balanced around these missions so I see no reasons to completely ignore these aspects. Additionally knowing where to place objectives to benefit you and hurt your opponent is a tactical skill that gets ignored in a 5x5 system. Watch some people play book missions. Noobs drop objectives wherever, vets put a lot of thought into it. Finally, the 5x5 system undoubtedly favors retain army types, namely the static MSU type builds that are already effective, popular and strongly preferred by the main proponents of 5x5 and the like. Personally, I like the book missions. The deeper we get into 5th the more I see those missions reward player who bring legit 5e lists (and maybe we're starting to learn that sitting in your box in your deployment zone and trying to blow me off the board isn't the heart an soul of 5e like we thought :) )
3 replies · active 760 weeks ago
Why is it somehow bad to make people play to the game's strengths?
MSU is king in all games, no matter what.

The book missions, especially, favor MSU. Always.
The book deployments are great (ya, even DoW) but C&C is very easy to auto-draw on and KP is an odd deviation from 5th edition principles (see KP denial armies). Whilst KP denial armies are generally bad anyway and don't gain much benefit in KP missions anyway, 5th edition places emphasis on mobility, objective holding, fire saturation, etc. which basically results in MSU-style armies (not static though). Yes this favors a certain style of army but look at older editions where this wasn't directly benefitted by the ruleset; less tactical play. You can argue this endlessly but the point of setting objective numbers is an evenness in board dynamics.

As I said, I love placing objectives just like I enjoy picking KP as it adds another tactical element to the game but as a tournament organiser, if you want valid results, placing objectives beforehand gives you this because if you use random objectives and even if you have good players, when you get an odd number there is very likely to be a lopsided result of objectives in terms of board placement.
Pre-placing objectives removes this and therefore every game is played upon the 'same' board in terms of winning conditions but with the added tactical complexity of choosing KP.

Yes, the mission books are from the book but are poor for tournament use. DoW/C&C = automatic draw a lot of the time. Odd number objectives in Seize = lopsided boards, etc. Centurion/NOVA missions stick as closely to possible as the BRB missions but standardise them which IMO is good. I'm sure there are improvements or 'upgrades' which could be made but they are a sight better than the BRB missions and a lot of the missions proposed by other tournaments.

I've also never thought sitting in your deployment box and blowing you off the board was part of 5th. That was 4th. Tau are probably the only ones which emphasis this but even then you've got mobility options.
Since army build & execution of a strategy are all under the skill of a player, you do make a pretty decent point with this post, Kirby. I might tie into this post w/ my Comp post.
Rather interesting is that in Sweden we have a ranking system that include all kinds of tournaments where several of the top players places rather high, no matter what kind of rules and missions are used. I do believe you are right that it needs to be more of-the-same-kind-tournaments to have a statistical basis to judge who is the best but I think it also works to see who's the best just by including all kind of tournaments. With this you'll get more data to judge. Better players have a tendency to be able to judge when it's worth to go for luck and not to and how to tackle a tournaments different missions with army selection - including where missions are not known beforehand. I believe the best 40k players are the ones who are capable of tackling all kind of different situations and with enough tournament results as data, it would show about the same result.
2 replies · active less than 1 minute ago
Good players will generally invariably place highly in most tournaments but if you want everyone else to agree with your results, tournaments need to be similar. Looking at RankingsHQ, a lot of people don't even bother with it because of the huge number of disparaging factors between tournaments especially when you start to include comp and non-comp tournaments and put players under the same name even though they change army, etc.
Works great for Australia with the 97% Comp Event market share :)
From a TO's perspective as well as being a player, here are my thoughts:
Set terrain setups - Bad
I don't want to play on the same tables everytime. It's boring, it's not fun, and just means that you'll get people saying "I hate this map" like they do in online games.

Fixed objective deployment - Bad
Placing objectives smartly is a skill and you're removing that. Appreciating how your opponent's army works and then placing the objective to maximise your strengths and increase his weaknesses is a good thing. If you're worried about it, make the amount of objectives placed an even number.

Random effects in missions - good to an extent.
Just when you have a bad turn of dice rolls, a good player is able to roll with the punches. Having some randomness in there keeps things interesting and players can interact more with the mission making it more enjoyable. It shouldn't be overdone and game breaking though. Good mission design is important to keep things fair.
4 replies · active 728 weeks ago
I agree with standardised terrain across all tables. I feel that it is unnecessarily complex for a TO.

As for the other 2, I disagree.
Objectives:
If I run a full bike army, you get to place 3/5 objectives and they all go in terrain, how is that fair, competitive, or fun for me, when the table next to me they are all in the open?
I understand it's a skill, but its something that I have abused as a player before, putting the objectives in places where my opponent just will not be able to get to (and yes, I won that game though i was all-but tabled).

Random Effects:
In an event designed to work out the tactical ability of the general and army, having something crazy happen and shift the game isn't good.
Sure, the better general will adapt, but if they are equal general's, the one with the better result luck will win, which leaves a sour taste.

Each to their own, and you and I will have this argument again and again ;)
Why didnt' he put them up in buildings :P. I agree with standardisation for terrain, it's not needed. Proper terrain is needed (i.e. not bare, not crammed but just right :P) and that is up to the TO but I agree I don't want to see the same table 20 times over. At the same time, it is up to the TO to make sure the terrain is never an excuse for a game win or loss.

Otherwise +1 to what fester said. With random mission effects, a poor general can win 6 games because of lucky mission effects and versusing other poor players who are more likely to get through because of random mission effects and therefore win the tournament whilst a good player may get shafted in a single game and therefore not be able to win. If that happened to me, I'd be pissed because it had nothing to do with me. If 40k bores you and you need to "make it more enjoyable", that's fine, don't do it at a tournament like NOVA or Centurion where general ability determines the overall winner. Again, those types of missions can be great for narratives or campagins or fun with friends, not for tournaments.
RagingDragon's avatar

RagingDragon · 728 weeks ago

How about having different standard tables for each round? In round one, everyone plays on table A. In round two, everyone plays on table B, etc.. That gives you both variety and fairness: noboby plays the same table twice, yet in each round everybody plays the same table. If the table layouts are published before the tournament, then there won't be any problems with unreachable objectives - everyone will field armies capable of reaching every objective. Either that or they're making a foolish mistake or taking a calculated risk.
Echoing what fester said with objectives, yes it's a skill as I said (just like picking KP) but even with even objective numbers the board can be lopsided. Whether it's left or right, top or bottom (relative to a player), more objectives are more likely to be in one area of the board and this will advantage some players depending on deployment type and armies. Yes you can make missions with objective placing by players that probably don't disadvantage some armies or deployment types (say 3 objectives set along midfield line and each player places one objective in their DZ 6" from any board edge) but in terms of objective placement, the 5x5 system forces standardisation in terms of objectives. They are all equidistance apart which forces mobility on an opponent and hard to control multiples with one unit (emphasising MSU like 5th edition). Some are going to be in terrain and some aren't but each player will have equal access to objectives with their deployment zone.

In the end, when you want general skill to decide who wins as much as possible, the more standardisation in terms of missions, the better.

Post a new comment

Comments by

Follow us on Facebook!

Related Posts Plugin for WordPress, Blogger...