Email in: Eldar help [1700]

Thursday, November 11, 2010

Email in: Eldar help [1700]

Posted by Unknown

"Hi Kirby,

Black_rose_00 here again for advice. Now that I have a good army (my space wolfs) to fall back to for the upcoming tournaments I feel the need to play a non-marine codex. Imperial guard, orks, deamons, eldar are all races I would love to have but since I already own a ton of eldar, I'll start building a good list with them so I do not have to much to spend.

I've looked around the net and found pretty good lists but none feel right for me. I play 1700 in my area and I haven't played my eldar since 3ed.

Here is the list so far.

Farseer, RoW, Guide

5 Fire dragons in a wave serpent, chin cannon, turret twin EML
5 Fire dragons in a wave serpent, chin cannon, turret twin EML

5 dire avengers in a wave serpent, chin cannon, turret twin EML
5 dire avengers in a wave serpent, chin cannon, turret twin EML

5 Dire avengers
5 Dire avengers
5 Dire avengers

Vyper, double shuriken cannon
Vyper, double shuriken cannon
Vyper, double shuriken cannon

Falcon, EML, chin cannon
Falcon, EML, chin cannon
Falcon, EML, chin cannon

1685 points so far and 15 points left.

The questions I have:

1. Do I need 5 troops? We play in nova style games so always 5 objectives.
2. EML vs scatter laser? Scatter laser is better against hordes and against AV 10-11 but EML can hurt AV12-13 and has a small template against hordes.
3. 10 Guardians with flamers a good choice instead of dire avengers even if they cost a little more?
4. Farseer does he have the proper power or fortune would be better?
5. Farseer or Autarch with fusion gun as HQ or a SC?

Like I said I haven't played my eldar since 3ed so any advice to get a good list on the way would be great.

For your information, I do not own a jetbike council yet but plan on building one eventually. I only have 5 vypers so a list with 9 is a no-go (6 is ok). I own 12 waveserpent/falcon/fire prism hulls so that is not a problem.

Thank you and have a nice day

Black_rose_00"

1) Yes and no. Eldar Troops suck at surviving so want as many as possible but 5 does seem a wee bit excessive. However, when you consider it's only 60 points to upgrade a Falcon to scoring, why not?
2) I'd prefer to see Scatters or Shurikens on the Dragon serpents and BLs on the DA Serpents to be honest. Dragon Serpents don't want to draw more attention to themselves and you need to be able to deal with AV14 at range even if BLs are inefficient they give you that opportunity. EMLs are nice on the Falcon though.
3) Certainly, especially when you have 3 DAVU Falcons. The problem with Stormies is they need to hop out to do anything and whilst 3 'specials' with a Warlock is pretty good, they generally die the next turn.
4) Doom should always be your first pick.
5) Farseer works, so does an Autarch just depends what you are looking for ^^.

So with all that in mind I think we should change your list so your scoring is on your Falcons only, up to 6 Vypers and try and grab 3 Dragon Serpents and maybe some Storm Guardians but I doubt we will have points. So we get the following...

Farseer w/RoWard, Doom
3x 5x Dragons w/Wave Serpent w/underslung cannon, TL-scatter lasers
3x 5x Dire Avengers
2x 2x Vypers w/double shuri cannon
3x Falcon w/Holo-fields, underslung cannon, EML

At 1670 points so we can upgrade some of the scatter lasers to EMLs or BLs if you'd like, upgrade the Vypers to SC/SL or add some spirit stones here and there. You lose out in the number of AV12 platforms by 1 but your Falcons are a lot tougher and your anti-tank is more solid whilst increasing your S6 output and maintaining the army's feel and concept. At higher point values you can bring in more Vypers and add in those Storm Guardians or if you didn't want to run Tri-Falcon you could drop one, add in a Prism and have more points to play with.

Comments (11)

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Zjoekov 74p · 755 weeks ago

Do you really recommend a 3x Falcon list? Personally I think the damage output this list can generate is just too low; falcons dont do that much in the first place but they are so easily to shake too. And once the dragons died (and they will) you will be completely dependant on your Falcons surviving and so scoring. The problem is if you cant take out enough units of your openent even Falcons will succumb to the sheer weight of fire the enemy will still have. Less damage output > you get more damage back. So in this case choosing survivability over more offensive power might actually decrease your survivability.

1 reply · active 755 weeks ago

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Kirby 118p · 755 weeks ago

I can't say I'm a huge tri-falcon fan but it can work when you essentially have 5 delaying units in the Dragons/Vypers which you can send forward in waves. It's the epitome of out attritioning (new word) your opponent. Yes I prefer a double Prism/Falcon set up but there are a bunch of those on this site and if Black_rose wants that I can put something up for 1700. At the same time I don't like drastically changing lists unless they really don't work. Tri-falcon isn't great but it's not like Tri-DR or WL.

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Apathyman 36p · 755 weeks ago

This is true, but consider the following issues:

1. These list articles are meant to help fix or improve a current list, which in this case has 3 falcons.
2. The damage output of all eldar vehicles are low at this point due to the adjustment of vehicle costs in 5th, but at the same time eldar are too expensive and fragile to trust on foot (plus you then lose their mobility).
3. What would you recommend instead? You could replace 2 falcons with 2 prisms another dragon squad, but otherwise I don't see much to do to make this list (or eldar in general) significantly stronger.

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Zjoekov 74p · 755 weeks ago

1. Well he's got a lot of Eldar he says and he looks for a good list, so I thought sugesting the best type of Eldar list would be the goal. But if thats not the case, then I understand it.
2. True, I dont suggest Footdar :P
3. Something like that indeed. Changing the Scatters to Shurican cannons (to save points), dropping the 2 DAVU Falcons and 1 Fire dragon Serpent and then adding 2x Prims 2x DAVU serpent 2x Shurican vypers. 2x Prism 2x Vypers will put out more damage than the 2x Falcon, while the 2x DAVU serpents equal the loss of the FD squad roughly.
Another variant: Dropping 2x DAVU Falcon; dropping 2 vypers; dropping some upgrades and adding 2x DAVU serpent 2x Fire Prism.
Another variant: same as above; but dropping the last vypers too for some upgrades and a cheap Autarch.

The balance between offensive and 'defensive' is better this way I think; especially considering your offensive units and scoring units are more spread now. (DAVU serpents do less than falcons; but are cheaper too. Fire prisms are a cheap way for more Av12 hulls with good offensive power)

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ProfessorEldritch · 755 weeks ago

Not sure if you have any jetbikes, but one way to get around having to spam foot DA squads is by throwing a small unit of these in your list. They can sling a Shurk for a little anti light armor, and the rest of the time you just zip them around the board and most people won't waste a shot against 3+ invul bikers. This makes them a bit more survivable, and with their movement they can contest at the last minute, and not have to worry about getting left behind if the rest of your army needs to shift to the other side to escape. Just a thought.

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black_rose_00 29p · 755 weeks ago

Thanks everyone for your input.

Are Fire Prisms really better then falcons? A Pulse laser + EML = 3 str 8 shots a Fire Prism is only a str 9 shot and they both have BS3. The Fire Prism is cheaper but that is it. I know you can combine 2 fire prisms for a Str 10 AP 1 shot that is twinlinked but if any of the two can't shoot you can't do that. Also if you combine the forepower of 2 falcons that's 6 Str 8 shots vs a Str 10 twinlinked shot. The Fire Prism can't even transport anything. I do want to understand, so any information on them is welcome.

I do own pretty much all models available in the eldar codex (missing swooping hawks only) but I'm looking for a mech list, so any army list ideas you have are welcome.

1 reply · active 755 weeks ago

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Kirby 118p · 755 weeks ago

They aren't better per say, it's like Tau with Hammerheads and Broadsides. Both are good picks and you can make good lists with pures of both but I think the best lists combine the lot. What Prisms allow you do is drop templates on transports you pop, templates with low AP which is very important and then taking two prisms is better than taking one (though one is still fine) which is why a lot of suggestions were for two Prisms.

In the end what it basically does is provide some variety to your army (:O how unusual) which benefits your army. Falcons are better anti-tank but can still provide anti-infantry whilst Prisms are better anti-infantry but can provide anti-tank and it basically becomes a balance of what you want.

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Icareane · 755 weeks ago

Prisms are BS4 by the way. Doesn't help much with the blast, but it sure helps with the shin shuricanon.
Usually with 3 units of dragons+ EML /lances on 2/3 other wave serpents, your AT bases are pretty much covered,
but you will have trouble with infantry. Moreover Prisms add an AP2 template that can really mess with melta deep-strikers like Blood-Angels ASM/SG. If they shoot on arrival they are clumped together and make a really juicy target, if they sprint, its 2/3 melta shots that you don't need to worry about.

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black_rose_00 29p · 755 weeks ago

Now I understand and will probably swap 2 falcons for prisms. I'll take all sugestions and comeback with a list soon.

Thanks again to everyone for there input.

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black_rose_00 29p · 734 weeks ago

The tournaments at my place are now 2000 points and here is my final list that I'm building following the feedback I got here and elswhere.

Farseer, doom, rune of warding, singing spear
Autarch, fusion gun

5 Fire Dragons, Wave serpent, twin scatter laser, chin shuricannon
5 Fire Dragons, Wave serpent, twin scatter laser, chin shuricannon

10 Storm guardians, 2 flamers, wave serpent, twin EML, chin shuricannon
10 Storm guardians, 2 flamers, wave serpent, twin EML, chin shuricannon
10 Storm guardians, 2 fusion guns, wave serpent, twin EML, chin shuricannon
5 Dire Avengers, wave serpent, twin EML, chin shuricannon

Vyper, shuricannon, chin shuricannon
Vyper, shuricannon, chin shuricannon
Vyper, shuricannon, chin shuricannon

Fire Prism, chin shuricannon
Fire Prism, chin shuricannon
Fire Prism, chin shuricannon

1 reply · active 734 weeks ago

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Kirby 118p · 734 weeks ago

Looks solid but I would aim to upgrade some of the EMLs to BLs. Perhaps dropping the Scatter Lasers to Shuriken Cannons.