HQ:
Logan Grimnar
Rune Priest (Terminator Armor, JotWW, Living Lightning, Chooser of the Slain)
Troops:
Wolf Guard Pack x5 (1 Terminator Armor with Cyclone Missle Launcher)
Wolf Guard Pack x5 (1 Terminator Armor with Cyclone Missle Launcher)
Wolf Guard Pack x5 (1 Terminator Armor with Cyclone Missle Launcher)
Wolf Guard Pack x5 (1 Terminator Armor with Cyclone Missle Launcher)
Wolf Guard Pack x5 (1 Terminator Armor with Cyclone Missle Launcher)
Heavy Support:
Long Fangs x6 (5x Missle Launcher)
Long Fangs x6 (5x Missle Launcher)
Long Fangs x6 (5x Missle Launcher)
Essentially the point is to overwhelm early with lots of missle shots. If set up correctly (and with a bad set up from the opponent) you can put 25 ML shots first turn - whether Krak or Frag it is going to do a lot of damage.
But you guys are the experts. Wanted to run it by you since a lot of other sites have people who respond with things that make no comprehensible sense.
Yeah, that's a lot of missiles. But its not a lot of anything else. Its definitely a strong list, and showcases how good wolves can be at ANY points value, but its cold man, and I imagine boring as hell. Also, if anyone does manage to get close to you (Deep Strikers or decent mech) your going to be in a world of hurt. To mitigate this, The easiest answer to deep strikers is Tempests Wrath, yes it means your losing your autocannon shots if you choose to use it, but hell, I think you have the firepower. I'd also like each of those WG Terminators to be packing a Chainfist/Stormshield combo, so your wolfguard units have some counterpunch in CC, as well as making your termi's more survivable. Lets be honest, the 4 wolfguard are ablative wounds, its the missilebot that matters.
So at 1450 pts, we get the following:
Logan Grimnar
Runepriest, Termi Arm, Jaws and Tempests Wrath
5 x Wolfguard squads with 4 PA Wolfguard, 1 x CML Termi with Chainfist/Stormshield
2 x 5 man Longfang packs, 4 x Missile Launchers in each
Yes, you have lost 7 missiles, and an autocannon. But you have only lost 3 targets, which lets be honest, you probably dont need at 1500pts. What I've given you is threatfactor in your units even if your opponent does close. Chainfists are your redundancy for Land Raiders or tankshocking Preds/Devilfish, and the stormshield allows him to eat a few powerweapon attacks if neccassary. Id advise dropping the Termi armour on the Rune Preist, as its not neccassary, and spending the points elsewhere.
Yes, its a good list, and effective, but you may as well play yahtzee, in my honest opinion.
Logging you in...
Behemothh 48p · 741 weeks ago
black_rose_00 29p · 741 weeks ago
I think that changing a unit of 4 missile laucnher long fangs for a unit of 2 heavybolters and 2 lascannons would be a good option. With logans tank hunter ability it gives you 2 Str 10 shots.
Also a few close combat upgrades would be nice, chainfist or at least powerfists.on the wolfguard.
Archnomad 70p · 741 weeks ago
Loganwing needs melta guns. However, units of Long Fangs with Logan joined aren't good melta. You don't want long fangs in mid field.
Throw some combi meltas in the list, 2-3 on every other unit should do it. Means you have nice anti tank everywhere and stops people getting close, also adds AP1 to your list (for 2+ save models). A unit with combi meltas in a drop pod isn't a terrible idea either.
Behemothh 48p · 741 weeks ago
Kirby 118p · 741 weeks ago
Behemothh 48p · 741 weeks ago
Auretious Taak · 741 weeks ago
Because you need to close with the enemy to do that. I'm gonna prevent you hurting my key units which your missile spam can't adequately deal with reliably and a turn of bad rolling on your behalf sees your army achieving nothing useful.
Drop Pod suicide melta deals with key heavy threats that all the krak missile spam in the world ain't going to do squat to and more importantly does it on your first turn. You can't deal with rock LR Assault units with krak Missiles only, it's too unreliable and having to close on the threat with a slow ass LW ain't happening and the TWC will get hit first. Besides Missile spam can be done far more efficently whilst keeping the ability to deal with heavy armour/threats (hello 2+ armour save characters/units/MC's - PF's/TH's/CF's are gonna go last verse me so they are gonna take a beating and the Krak missiles can't bypass my wounds, oh look you die yet again!). Seriously, wtf. There's more to the game then just mech, heck a small thunderbubble unit is gonna be a huge concern for the missile spam army and indeed it can absorb the entire krak missile spam out lay of that army above and take just shy of 3 unsaved wounds on average dice, indeed any 2+ armour save is the same verse the BS 4 Kraks.
Behemothh 48p · 741 weeks ago
I understand suicide melta has a use, but drop podding in suicide WG isn't whats being discussed, its combi-melta on normal foot units. So closing in on the threat is going to happen just as quickly with a lone wolf as is a suicide WG squad.
Sooo, we've gotta get within 6 either way. A couple combi-meltas arent going to make a thunderhammer/ss unit go away. Nor will it make a tyrant/guard unit disappear. Besides that, 2 armor save MCs you can deal with in close combat, or if its something like a Tfex, doesnt matter to you anyway/is out of range of your combi-melta/dies to jaws. If you're worried about 2 saves on anything fast, your melta is never going to get to shoot before he charges.
Anyway, 4 combi-melta shots on a 3 plus invuln nets you maybe 1 kill, 8 (if you can get them in range) gives you two, so I'm failing to see the magic there. Terminators are going to be a pain to anything, but the best bet (as always) with terminators is to blast away their support and set up a turn to torrent them with everything you have. And expecting me to shoot kraks at 2 plus saves is a bit dumb and a little insulting. Call me silly but after frags, pistols, Logan's plus 1 attack bubble, preferred enemy and troops with 4/5 attacks, and the prevalence of our own Storm shield saves in the army, we can actually handle enemy terminators quite well. And dont forget, sure PFs, CFs swing last but are on multiwound models with eternal warrior or T5 and are individually weak but in concert quite a pain in the ass to deal with. I agree, theres more to the game than just mech and logan-wing handles it. The build OBVIOUSLY has its weaknesses, but combi-melta's dont solve the hard counters that the army has imo. Saying combimeltas will save the day against thunderbubble certainly doesnt speak much to this logan-wing player either.
Sneakydan · 741 weeks ago
Auretious Taak · 741 weeks ago
Lets quote you above in the article Dan where you didn't mention melta at all:
[quote]So at 1450 pts, we get the following:
Logan Grimnar
Runepriest, Termi Arm, Jaws and Tempests Wrath
5 x Wolfguard squads with 4 PA Wolfguard, 1 x CML Termi with Chainfist/Stormshield
2 x 5 man Longfang packs, 4 x Missile Launchers in each
Yes, you have lost 7 missiles, and an autocannon. But you have only lost 3 targets, which lets be honest, you probably dont need at 1500pts. What I've given you is threatfactor in your units even if your opponent does close. Chainfists are your redundancy for Land Raiders or tankshocking Preds/Devilfish, and the stormshield allows him to eat a few powerweapon attacks if neccassary. Id advise dropping the Termi armour on the Rune Preist, as its not neccassary, and spending the points elsewhere.
Yes, its a good list, and effective, but you may as well play yahtzee, in my honest opinion.[/quote]
Your replacement army is utter crap mate. Seriously, Jaws? WTF!! Your bog standard best RP Builds are the RP, CotS, LL, MH and the RP, CotS, TW, LL both at the standard 110pts, jaws does sweet bugger all half the time and relies on getting in close with the enemy stupid enough to line up in long rows. MH shoves the unit in difficult/dangerous terrain so a sixth die instantly next turn if they move anyways for example.
Auretious Taak · 741 weeks ago
Throw in this abomination of fail: 1 x CML Termi with Chainfist/Stormshield = 93pts. and I'm seriously questioning your abilities to play well with Space Wolves. The SS+TDA+CML WG is fun occasionally as a mini-dread but doesn't reallyu have a place ina competitive list unless you are ramping out the numbers and getting a good mix of equipment in the unit for take all comers and even then you aren't dumping another 15pts on an already expensive arse model because one unlucky save and he is gone. Seriously learn to play wolves properly before giving this sort of advice cause it's all eggs on one model and 4 ablative wounds that do nothing useful and multiplied 5 times over, a unit costing 165pts where you can run a las/plas 5 man GH unit with Flamer and HKM at 160pts which will do more damage to more threats and give you mobility and survivability and more ability against everything. As opposed to sweet bugger all. Oooh Look! CF's! Come to me heavy armour and threats I can't deal with at range! And oooh, I have 50pts left and because of what everyone else said I'm gonna throw melta on my foot army of fail.
Lets review the original list then and see what needs to be done to make it actually competitive whilst maintaining a massive amount of missile spam, because trust me, missile spam doesn't work without the heavy hitting firepower, it's called experience.
First of all we don't really need Logan, he is a 275pt power sink that doesn't add too much to the army. We have superior range with our ML's and don't need relentless on them and if we shove him in a unit of LF's at best there will be a 93pt uber-WG in there for wounds shannanigans but then that unit becomes the lets torrent it to death unit because it has no mobility. It is static unless you walk towards the enemy which puts you in range of more weapons and more assaults and sees the unit screwed fast. So ditch Logan, it's not a logan list.
Also, Basically you have a Missile Spam army with no ability to deal with key armoured threats such as rock LR units or MC's or even basic 2+ armour save guys or Nob Bikers which still see use depending on your area of play. Your opponent is gonna see your CF guy and it won't matter as they engage in combat with whatever is inside their transport and eat you whole because your units aren't combat units - wow 4 basic guys and a CF guy in TDA with SS!!! WINNA! WOOOO! Seriously, fail man. At this point their units are in your face and you fold soon after.
Auretious Taak · 741 weeks ago
RP, CotS, MB's, LL, TW - 115
6 LF's, 5 ML's, Drop Pod - 175
6 LF's, 5 ML's - 140
6 LF's, 5 ML's - 140
5 GH's, Flamer, Rhino, HKM - 120
5 GH's, Flamer, Las/plas Razor - 150
5 GH's, Flamer, Las/plas Razor - 150
Land Speeder Typhoon, MM, TML - 100
Land Speeder Typhoon, MM, TML - 100
Land Speeder Typhoon, MM, TML - 100
3 WG w/Combi-melta and BP, Drop Pod w/SB - 104
3 WG w/Combi-melta and BP, Drop Pod w/SB - 104
Total = 1,498pts.
So original list had 25 ML's, ours has 22 first turn and 21 there after. More we have 2 first turn suicide melta drops as well as mobile MM in the Land Speeder Typhoons. The RP can snipe from the rhino on the GH unit and the 2 secondary GH units have las/plas so we have 2 Lascannon shots down range instead of ML's first turn and second and there after the twin-linked plasmaguns come into it as well. It's a mobile and stationary shooting force which has a target saturated and redundant environment that can also hit more opposing targets then either the original list or your own Dan. 14-15 (if you wanna single shot the HKM at something, not reccommended but sometimes worthwhile) targets can be hit your first turn as opposed to 12 in the original list and 10 in your list.
/facepalm at stupidity!
Gorak · 741 weeks ago
Behemothh 48p · 741 weeks ago
My personal opinion of your list is irrelevant, however. I'll be the first to ask, please - chill out and save some face. Think about the community here and what acting like a wanna-be-2009-stelek brings to it. It wouldn't be that hard to find reasons to spazz out, fill a paragraph up with lots of acronyms, caps, hubris and sarcasm, and trash your suggested list - or any list ever made - either.
"/facepalm at stupidity!"
See what i mean? ^ that shit just sounds childish.
Bulwinkle · 741 weeks ago
Taak, a bit of common courteousy never hurt anyone and it has been one of the things I've enjoyed most about 3++ until now.
Take a breath, step back and chill.
Your list has moved completely away from the original list that Dan was asked to comment on (whether all of his advice was as good as it could be I'll leave to people with more experience playing SW's).
Bulwinkle1 22p · 741 weeks ago
Taak, a little common courteousy never hurt anyone and the level of civility displayed on 3++ has been one of the things that kept me coming back.
Take a breath, step back and chill.
The list you've put together has move completely away from the one Dan was asked to comment on (as to the value of his advice I'll leave that to people with more experience with the SW than I).
SneakyDan · 741 weeks ago
I've left spare points specifically because I would probably take single combi's on all squads. Also, my choice of powers is based on what I feel has synergy with the list. You run drop dreads with your wolves, widely regarded as a bad idea, but I dont badmouth you on your choices.
Pull your fucking head in. You want answer the wolf emails? Feel free. But have a care to read within the context of what the person is asking for, before running off on a rant. It just lowers you in peoples estimations, which is pretty much what happened to YTTH. Lets not do that shit here.
Auretious Taak · 741 weeks ago
But you guys are the experts. Wanted to run it by you since a lot of other sites have people who respond with things that make no comprehensible sense.[/quote]
The email asked for missile spam. Sure he had foot logan there but he wasn't specific. He also asked for better advice as elsewhere had said nothing that made sense. You cut numbers and targets to shoot at and didn't bring anything wholly beneficial to the list. My list is different sure, but it's missile spam that works. I ran missile spam previously, it doesn't work without the heavier weapons because there are always things which laugh at krak spam that can't also be hurt by frag spam. I gave reasons why you ditch logan and why I made the suggestions, it churns out more firepower, hits more targets, is more mobile and does more in terms of all that was asked, ie, "Essentially the point is to overwhelm early with lots of missle shots."
[quote]I've left spare points specifically because I would probably take single combi's on all squads. Also, my choice of powers is based on what I feel has synergy with the list. You run drop dreads with your wolves, widely regarded as a bad idea, but I dont badmouth you on your choices.[/quote]
You've left points specifically for combi's on the foot WG but don't bother to tell anyone to start with? How are we supposed to take that? People commented, not just me on lack of melta and the power to bust through high end targets at range before they hit combat and chew through your non-combat based army before your chainfists get to attack. I added my thoughts which frankly adds more power to the missile spam army and allos the missiles to torrent the stuff that otherwise they have issues dealing with or getting to. You8 don't like my ideas in my lists ie Drop Dreads in a list where they are there to draw firepower because hey, people are going to shoot at them instead of the closing thunderwolves and if they don't then the dreads are in your face with str 10 attacks next turn then have a go at me for it. Don't hold back. As you say, discussion.
As to peoples estimations of me, it's generally 60/40 of people on the internet worldwide, 60% either find me useful in what I write regardless of tone or are positively affected in someway andthe oher 40% bitch at me because I can come off as a complete arsehole from time to time, or I'm simply too rude in my delivery. I can live with that 40% or so of people ignoring me, at the end of the day it's a game, albeit a strategical wargame and different people take different things from it. You interpreted the list as a foot loganwing list yetr lowered it's overall power output and didn't add in the strengths to deal with the majority of high end threats before they got to you and ate you before those few I 1 attacks could hurt them and you also held back on completing the list and thioughts for combi-melta's on the WG units as well. I interpreted as Missile Spam, because that's essentially what the idea was. So I ran with that. Different interpretations, I'm curious to know what the guy/girl who sent the email thinks.
Auretious Taak · 741 weeks ago
[quote]Yeah, that's a lot of missiles. But its not a lot of anything else. Its definitely a strong list, and showcases how good wolves can be at ANY points value, but its cold man, and I imagine boring as hell.
Yes, its a good list, and effective, but you may as well play yahtzee, in my honest opinion.[/quote]
So before having a go at me because I was more directly blunt at you publicly, maybe you shouldn't insult peoples play styles when answering their emails publicly?
SneakyDan · 741 weeks ago
Gorak · 741 weeks ago